Blacking out name on application

[Culebra132]

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🙂

 

[binko]

^^Ok thanks! I was jus paranoid that they'd be paranoid over me possibly trying to hide the fact that I'm overrepresented.

I don't think affirmative action works by penalizing ORM's, just by giving a little bit of a boost to URM's. (though a lot of people seem to not understand this)

 

[Handy388]

I don't think affirmative action works by penalizing ORM's, just by giving a little bit of a boost to URM's. (though a lot of people seem to not understand this)

but college admissions is a zero sum game. for someone to win, others must lose (seats)

 

[binko]

but college admissions is a zero sum game. for someone to win, others must lose (seats)

true. but the vast majority of seats still go to ORM's... which is why they are still ORM's.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

The other negative, besides being blind to the economic status of the "URM" is that URM status gives a stigma that anyone that gets in that is "URM" only got in because of their race. Rid of it, and just go by how disadvantaged you are.

 

[binko]

The other negative, besides being blind to the economic status of the "URM" is that URM status gives a stigma that anyone that gets in that is "URM" only got in because of their race. Rid of it, and just go by how disadvantaged you are.

I agree in principle but it's also hard to tell how "disadvantaged" someone actually is, since a lot of times their finances are considered identical to those of their parents, which is not always a good assumption (disowned/estranged, etc).

 

[AlbaMD]

Without diverting attention away from OPs topic, as I mentioned, have u seen American History X? Basically related to a convo in that (great) film, I'm questioning why is it fair to reward someone from a socioeconomically disadvantaged environment, who's parents MIGHT not have worked hard to earn a living?
I.e. If I want to give my kids to get into med school, maybe I should basically go bankrupt for a few yrs, go on welfare prior to application time, so my kids can get financial aid. Now my kids are from a 'disadvantaged' background by def'n, which gives them an advantage in getting into med school by this low socioeconomical status I've just established for myself 👍 ?

Well, you talking about it so lightly just means that you have never indeed experienced the whole "go bankrupt, be on welfare" thing. You make it sound so easy. Trust me - if you ever go through the hell that being very poor, being on welfare, getting food from food banks is, then the low socio-economic status should indeed give your kids an advantage. Because living in poverty is hell. Believe me.

Anyone who thinks that people would intentionally out themselves through welfare/poverty in order to scheme for their kids to get into med school is pathetically naive. Or dangerously naive.

Not to mention what another poster already said - it is so much harder for a poor person to go through admission process. The cost of adding schools is staggering - you end up with like 10 schools because you are unable to finance more. Cost of flights is horrifying. I ended up taking the cheapest flights to cities that were 3 hrs bus ride from my interview destination just to save money. Hotels are out of question - and if for some reason you can't secure a student host, spending most of your night in the airport because you can't afford a hotel room is a sad reality. Forget about buying a suit - you just try to match clearance pieces so that they resemble a suit. And before that in undergrad - having to work while your peers found enough time and money to volunteer, etc. It all adds up.

Being poor doesn't make it easier to get into med school. It makes it extremely difficult. But if you are willing to go through it for your kids - go ahead. I would like to see how much "easier" it would be for them.

 

[Steeler7588]

I wonder why asians are highly represented. What is it about us?

I hate to play up stereotypes (I'm South Asian myself), but Asian parents really only only consider a few fields as "good" careers. I'm lucky that my parents don't care, and came very close to choosing another field no Asian people I know are in. The diversity of careers among Asians compared to other ethnicities is lacking.

If you reward the lower socioecon. status applicant, then you're punishing the wealthier background applicant, and thus providing no incentive for parents to work hard for income... So maybe my parents shouldn't work so hard to earn money?

I loved American History X, huge Edward Norton fan.

But what you're saying is ridiculous. There's no incentive for parents to work hard, because in admissions many years down the road there's no advantage to it? I mean, come on. With increased wealth you get better opportunities and a better quality of life, is that not important for your family? Plus, it's very likely the wealthier candidate wouldn't have done as well in life under lesser economic standards, so it's not really a fair hypothetical. Just flawed reasoning on many levels.

 

[MrBlonde]

The other negative, besides being blind to the economic status of the "URM" is that URM status gives a stigma that anyone that gets in that is "URM" only got in because of their race. Rid of it, and just go by how disadvantaged you are.

That's bulls**t, what you're describing is someone who is prejudiced, I guess you never watched that very special episode of "Saved By the Bell" that taught you to be not to prejudiced.

If a patient has a some kinda of asinine preconceived notion of whether I am not a competent physician based on my skin tone, I can very kindly show them the door and they can find a new doctor.

 

[Handy388]

That's bulls**t, what you're describing is someone who is prejudiced, I guess you never watched that very special episode of "Saved By the Bell" that taught you to be not to prejudiced.

If a patient has a some kinda of asinine preconceived notion of whether I am not a competent physician based on my skin tone, I can very kindly show them the door and they can find a new doctor.

it's certainly prejudice when someone decide that my qualification worth less than someone else's equal qualification just because the tone of my skin. That happens in affirmative action.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

That's bulls**t, what you're describing is someone who is prejudiced, I guess you never watched that very special episode of "Saved By the Bell" that taught you to be not to prejudiced.

If a patient has a some kinda of asinine preconceived notion of whether I am not a competent physician based on my skin tone, I can very kindly show them the door and they can find a new doctor.

I was actually thinking more on the lines of medical school admission rather than when you're a full time physician. My point was that the URM tag breeds racism. There will always be people who will point a finger at any black/hispanic/Native American individual who gets in and say "you got in because of your race." Taking the tag away won't rid of racism, but it will not give people an excuse to point fingers.

 

[WhizoMD]

my point is that rich black kid who have never sit foot in the ghetto most likely choose to practice where they grew up (affluent suburb populated mostly by whites). in this case they are not more relatable to their patient base than anyone else.

The vast majority of affluent blacks achieved that status in recent generations(meaning at the very least parents or grandparents grew up in poverty ) so I think your implication that affluent blacks are so far removed from the "ghetto" that they can't relate to its inhabitants is inaccurate. Most affluent black family's still have close relatives who live in poverty so it's improbable that the children would grow up ignorant and unappreciative of their culture.

 

[Beta Cell]

The vast majority of affluent blacks achieved that status in recent generations(meaning at the very least parents or grandparents grew up in poverty ) so I think your implication that affluent blacks are so far removed from the "ghetto" that they can't relate to its inhabitants is inaccurate. Most affluent black family's still have close relatives who live in poverty so it's improbable that the children would grow up ignorant and unappreciative of their culture.

Where are you getting these statistics?

 

[WhizoMD]

Where are you getting these statistics?

don't really need statistics to prove this.... we're about 3? maybe 4 generations removed from slavery, and 1 generation removed from harsh institutional discrimination, which still exists to a lesser degree to this day.

 

[NotAndrew]

it's certainly prejudice when someone decide that my qualification worth less than someone else's equal qualification just because the tone of my skin. That happens in affirmative action.

This post FTW.

 

[NotAndrew]

don't really need statistics to prove this.... we're about 3? maybe 4 generations removed from slavery, and 1 generation removed from harsh institutional discrimination, which still exists to a lesser degree to this day.

Or ya know 5 or 6, but hey whats fifty percent?

 

[WhizoMD]

Or ya know 5 or 6, but hey whats fifty percent?

parent--->grandparent---->great-grandparent--->great great grandparent(slave). usually the case.
1 2 34

 

[NotAndrew]

parents--->grandparents---->great-grandparents(slave) usually the case.
1 2 3

This ignores history and the fact that most of the posters on this board are 20-26 years old. So in order for my great grandparents to be slaves they would need to be born before 1865, the 1850s to remember it but whatever. If you figure about 18-32 years for a generation this would mean for my great-grandparents to be slaves I would need to be born when Kennedy was president. This also factored in children being born every 32 years, however until recently people married and had children earlier than they do today.

 

[WhizoMD]

This ignores history and the fact that most of the posters on this board are 20-26 years old. So in order for my great grandparents to be slaves they would need to be born before 1865, the 1850s to remember it but whatever. If you figure about 18-32 years for a generation this would mean for my great-grandparents to be slaves I would need to be born when Kennedy was president. This also factored in children being born every 32 years, however until recently people married and had children earlier than they do today.

ok lets go with 5-6 then, but still the harsh institutional discrimination existed just 1 generation ago, so my original point is still acurate

 

[Shawnpremed]

.

 

[Shawnpremed]

..

 

[Handy388]

The vast majority of affluent blacks achieved that status in recent generations(meaning at the very least parents or grandparents grew up in poverty ) so I think your implication that affluent blacks are so far removed from the "ghetto" that they can't relate to its inhabitants is inaccurate. Most affluent black family's still have close relatives who live in poverty so it's improbable that the children would grow up ignorant and unappreciative of their culture.

The vast majority of affluent asians achieved that status in recent generations(meaning at the very least parents or grandparents grew up in poverty ) so I think your implication that affluent asians are so far removed from the "ghetto" that they can't relate to its inhabitants is inaccurate. Most affluent asian family's still have close relatives who live in poverty so it's improbable that the children would grow up ignorant and unappreciative of their culture.

more over, our parents/grand parents came from a war torn country, had their houses blew up, slaved to gangster who shipped them over, came to the United States in a crowded boat matching those boats shipping slaves (and that happens NOW).

But of course, we are rich now, over-represented in medicine, and sometimes recieve PENALTY points in college admission because our skin color.

real fair.

Let me reiterate again, I am against affirmative action Based on race/skin color alone. I thought we are all on the same page about hating racism?

 

[Steeler7588]

First, it's not uncommon to find an undergrad that lives on bare necessities. One, if not MANY could easily work just hard enough to provide 3 meals a day, and nothing else left over for school/luxuries. If one can sustain a family this way, and have financial aid supply the rest, sometimes in the form of grants with no interest, why not?

I'm a little confused. You're now comparing undergrads living frugally to raising a family living in poverty?

Look, yes, you could raise enough funds to just barely feed your family in order to qualify for financial aid. Maybe that's not what you're suggesting, but it's the general premise (to cut back on your earnings to become disadvantaged). In the process, you'd be depriving your family of a better life: vacations, playing youth sports, taking a trip to the zoo, etc. If you feel like purposefully living a life of poverty is worth getting financial aid in college or getting an "advantage" in admissions, then that's really quite sad. You shouldn't plan your life or your family's life around getting into medical school, what happened to just enjoying life along the way?

Somebody once asked me if I was annoyed that I wasn't going to schools like Duke for undergrad, when other people were getting financial aid to cover pretty much all costs. I replied that if my life of privilege was the reason I wasn't getting financial aid, that there was no way I'd give it up just so I can get aid to college. To think otherwise is just short-sighted.

And now you're making assumptions. Are you saying that wealthy people very likely don't have the work ethic or determination to overcome such struggle?

No, I'm not saying this at all. Have you taken the MCAT yet?

If two applicants have the same qualifications and yet are from two vastly different financial backgrounds, then it's not unreasonable to predict either: a) the poorer student would have a better application if he had grown up with money, b) the richer student wouldn't have as good an application if he had been poor.

I'm from an upper middle-class family. I've worked hard in high school and college. However, I think it's pretty safe to assume that I wouldn't have had as much time to study, volunteer, pursue other interests, etc. if I had to take up a job to keep myself in school. It has nothing to do with my work ethic, just my available time. I was also able to take a pretty expensive Kaplan MCAT class, it was a huge help while I was studying. I would've scored lower without it.

 

[Handy388]

I'm a little confused. You're now comparing undergrads living frugally to raising a family living in poverty?

Look, yes, you could raise enough funds to just barely feed your family in order to qualify for financial aid. Maybe that's not what you're suggesting, but it's the general premise (to cut back on your earnings to become disadvantaged). In the process, you'd be depriving your family of a better life: vacations, playing youth sports, taking a trip to the zoo, etc. If you feel like purposefully living a life of poverty is worth getting financial aid in college or getting an "advantage" in admissions, then that's really quite sad. You shouldn't plan your life or your family's life around getting into medical school, what happened to just enjoying life along the way?

Somebody once asked me if I was annoyed that I wasn't going to schools like Duke for undergrad, when other people were getting financial aid to cover pretty much all costs. I replied that if my life of privilege was the reason I wasn't getting financial aid, that there was no way I'd give it up just so I can get aid to college. To think otherwise is just short-sighted.

No, I'm not saying this at all. Have you taken the MCAT yet?

If two applicants have the same qualifications and yet are from two vastly different financial backgrounds, then it's not unreasonable to predict either: a) the poorer student would have a better application if he had grown up with money, b) the richer student wouldn't have as good an application if he had been poor.

I'm from an upper middle-class family. I've worked hard in high school and college. However, I think it's pretty safe to assume that I wouldn't have had as much time to study, volunteer, pursue other interests, etc. if I had to take up a job to keep myself in school. It has nothing to do with my work ethic, just my available time. I was also able to take a pretty expensive Kaplan MCAT class, it was a huge help while I was studying. I would've scored lower without it.

seconded. being wealthy is an incredible advantage to have.

shawnpremed, ever had to come up for rent? medical school admissions become 1000th place on your priority list if you can't come up with rent.

 

[WhizoMD]

The vast majority of affluent asians achieved that status in recent generations(meaning at the very least parents or grandparents grew up in poverty ) so I think your implication that affluent asians are so far removed from the "ghetto" that they can't relate to its inhabitants is inaccurate. Most affluent asian family's still have close relatives who live in poverty so it's improbable that the children would grow up ignorant and unappreciative of their culture.

more over, our parents/grand parents came from a war torn country, had their houses blew up, slaved to gangster who shipped them over, came to the United States in a crowded boat matching those boats shipping slaves (and that happens NOW).

But of course, we are rich now, over-represented in medicine, and sometimes recieve PENALTY points in college admission because our skin color.

real fair.

While all of this may be true it's completely unrelated to the point of my post. You were saying that rich blacks cannot relate to their poor counterparts, my post was in response to that.

But of course, we are rich now, over-represented in medicine, and sometimes recieve PENALTY points in college admission because our skin color.

real fair.

I think this has to do with culture, Immigrant family's (based on mine and others I've encountered) tend to promote education a lot, and frown upon anything but a select few career choices. (Doctor, lawyer, engineer, or failure) And I was never made to believe that anything was beyond my grasp. But for my "American" black counterparts this didn't seem to be the case, I was usually ridiculed by most of them for acting white and not picking up a basketball or microphone, family's that espoused education seemed to be few and far between. This culture combined with crappy schools, discrimination, and bad economic situations (usually), make getting an education a lot harder, so I think it's ok that the anomalies that make it through all of that and apply get a bit of a boost at the end....

Whether it's fair or not, I don't know.

Anyway the definition of URM is : "those racial and ethnic populations that are underrepresented in the medical profession relative to their numbers in the general population."
😛

I think the culture is starting to change(more non-entertainer role models), so if the schools stop being crappy maybe things will even out in the next generation and aa won't be needed any more. 🙂 But, for now I think it's still a necessary evil.

 

[allthaticanbe]

While all of this may be true it's completely unrelated to the point of my post. You were saying that rich blacks cannot relate to their poor counterparts, my post was in response to that.


I think this has to do with culture, Immigrant family's (based on mine and others I've encountered) tend to promote education a lot, and frown upon anything but a select few career choices. (Doctor, lawyer, engineer, or failure) And I was never made to believe that anything was beyond my grasp. But for my "American" black counterparts this didn't seem to be the case, I was usually ridiculed by most of them for acting white and not picking up a basketball or microphone, family's that espoused education seemed to be few and far between. This culture combined with crappy schools, discrimination, and bad economic situations (usually), make getting an education a lot harder, so I think it's ok that the anomalies that make it through all of that and apply get a bit of a boost at the end....

Whether it's fair or not, I don't know.

Anyway the definition of URM is : "those racial and ethnic populations that are underrepresented in the medical profession relative to their numbers in the general population."
😛

I think the culture is starting to change(more non-entertainer role models), so if the schools stop being crappy maybe things will even out in the next generation and aa won't be needed any more. 🙂 But, for now I think it's still a necessary evil.

My point of view is a bit different as a Black Canadian, however this whole ridiculing of black students who perform well does not happen as much as many people like to "imagine". Went to more then one highschool in two different provinces. Both schools had a large number of black students, sure some of them played basketball, others were on the dance but some were also in the science fair. Not once but two years in around did a black student win the science fair. Also a black student won the robotics competition last year (yea it was my little cousin). Were these people ridiculed no by other black students no. I look back now and admit that I was a 'nerd' stayed behind for study groups. Was in the IB program (which I should note that a lot of black students were in), did a business competition (DECA) for the fun of it. And not once was I picked on for doing well, I was encouraged by my fellow black students. I should also point out that my family was low to middle income and a lot of students come from families on welfare.

Now I'm not trying to say that your situation does not occur but it is not should not be representative of the smart black students experience who lives in the ghetto.

 

[WhizoMD]

My point of view is a bit different as a Black Canadian, however this whole ridiculing of black students who perform well does not happen as much as many people like to "imagine". Went to more then one highschool in two different provinces. Both schools had a large number of black students, sure some of them played basketball, others were on the dance but some were also in the science fair. Not once but two years in around did a black student win the science fair. Also a black student won the robotics competition last year (yea it was my little cousin). Were these people ridiculed no by other black students no. I look back now and admit that I was a 'nerd' stayed behind for study groups. Was in the IB program (which I should note that a lot of black students were in), did a business competition (DECA) for the fun of it. And not once was I picked on for doing well, I was encouraged by my fellow black students. I should also point out that my family was low to middle income and a lot of students come from families on welfare.

Now I'm not trying to say that your situation does not occur but it is not should not be representative of the smart black students experience who lives in the ghetto.

Canada is different 😛 , but yes my evidence is purely anecdotal though I've heard the same story's from family members who live all over the U.S. and from reading the urm forum a bit. Also there are plenty of media examples of this.

 

[Handy388]

While all of this may be true it's completely unrelated to the point of my post. You were saying that rich blacks cannot relate to their poor counterparts, my post was in response to that.

What I been trying to argue that rich blacks cannot relate to the inner city poor as well as inner city poor themselves, regardless of race (or, an inner city poor white guy can relate to inner city poor black better than rich black can relate to inner city poor white)

affirmative action based on socioeconomical status is not evil, affirmative action based on racism (as its current form) is.

I been trying to argue against the specific case of priviledge people gained advantage only due to their skin color.

 

[MsKrispyKreme]

This is an idiotic discussion that comes up every week on SDN.

I'm always amazed how anonymity shows people's true colors (or lack of 🙄).

 

[WhizoMD]

What I been trying to argue that rich blacks cannot relate to the inner city poor as well as inner city poor themselves, regardless of race (or, an inner city poor white guy can relate to inner city poor black better than rich black can relate to inner city poor white)

affirmative action based on socioeconomical status is not evil, affirmative action based on racism (as its current form) is.

I been trying to argue against the specific case of priviledge people gained advantage only due to their skin color.

I agree that this isn't really fair, but the point of the URM system is to eventually get to the point where they are no longer under represented, so socioeconomic status is a separate issue, which is why there is "disadvantaged" status.

 

[MsKrispyKreme]

Or... maybe cuz our girls are HOTTT.

I wholeheartedly disagree. They are certainly no more attractive than ANY other ethnicity of women.

 

[binko]

this is an idiotic discussion that comes up every week on sdn.

I'm always amazed how anonymity shows people's true colors (or lack of 🙄).

+1

 

[nick_carraway]

I wholeheartedly disagree. They are certainly no more attractive than ANY other ethnicity of women.

Now you're just being ridiculous. Our women are clearly the reason for our outrageous representation in medicine and I won't stand for your LIES!

 

[Handy388]

This is an idiotic discussion that comes up every week on SDN.

I'm always amazed how anonymity shows people's true colors (or lack of 🙄).

no need to be rude now.

 

[MsKrispyKreme]

no need to be rude now.

No rudeness.

I referred to the discussion as idiotic. I said nothing of its participants.

And I find it hilarious that of all the inflammatory stuff written in this thread, you think MY post was rude. Comedy.

 

[Handy388]

No rudeness.

I referred to the discussion as idiotic. I said nothing of its participants.

And I find it hilarious that of all the inflammatory stuff written in this thread, you think MY post was rude. Comedy.

I hardly think a discussion toward a push to end racism and segregation of opportunities in education is being idiotic, but that's just me.

 

[nick_carraway]

No rudeness.

I referred to the discussion as idiotic. I said nothing of its participants.

And I find it hilarious that of all the inflammatory stuff written in this thread, you think MY post was rude. Comedy.

I'm pretty sure handy said that in jest.

 

[Handy388]

I hardly think a discussion toward a push to end racism and segregation of opportunities in education is being idiotic, but that's just me.

808 posts, good luck charm for every Chinese person.

 

[nick_carraway]

I hardly think a discussion toward a push to end racism and segregation of opportunities in education is being idiotic, but that's just me.

I have to admit that it does become a less useful exercise when the discussion occurs on a non-political, anonymous, pre-med web forum.

 

[Handy388]

I have to admit that it does become a less useful exercise when the discussion occurs on a non-political, anonymous, pre-med web forum.

because this is a very heated issue for many people, and there isn't really a normal forum of national discussion on this issue.

I personally think there will be a landmark case where the constitutionality of affirmative action will be examined (or was there one? I am not a legal nut), resulting in nation wide discussion.

 

[vickpick]

I've met "caucasian" people with hispanic last names...

Anyway, I don't think it's a big deal. It is what it is. Just make the best with the hands you're dealt.

I'm Chinese. About as over-represented in medicine as you can get.

I'm Indian 👍, same here...
In my case, I also have the most famous indian last name.. lol.. most of u outside the bread basket states would know..lol

 

[nick_carraway]

because this is a very heated issue for many people, and there isn't really a normal forum of national discussion on this issue.

I personally think there will be a landmark case where the constitutionality of affirmative action will be examined (or was there one? I am not a legal nut), resulting in nation wide discussion.

It's been debated quite a few times in CA, at least.

 

[Shawnpremed]

.

 

[NotAndrew]

I'm India 👍, same here...
In my case, I also have the most famous indian last name.. lol.. most of u outside the bread basket states would know..lol

Singh?

 

[vickpick]

Singh?

think gujarati..

starts with the fifth letter of my screenname

 

[Khazmo]

Not another Patel.....😉

 

[vickpick]

Not another Patel.....😉

hehe... yeap... i gotta say- sucks being a Patel.. i get so many "do u have a brother going here?" "do u have a sis going here?" "Is your dad a professor here?" that I am sick and fed up of it.... the last time somebody asked me that, I laughed hysterically and forgot to answer them, next thing you know they think I'm crazy..

 

[longhorn09]

Is it really a big deal?

 

[Khazmo]

Nothing like first day attendance for science classes at my uni. At least 10 Patel's listed off every single time haha. "Non-science is nonsense" is pretty much how it goes for you guys huh? Lol, I kid.. I kid.. 😛

 

[vickpick]

Nothing like first day attendance for science classes at my uni. At least 10 Patel's listed off every single time haha. "Non-science is nonsense" is pretty much how it goes for you guys huh? Lol, I kid.. I kid.. 😛

well, to me, non-science is nonsense...lol... but i actually wanted to become a linguist after my english class, thn I realized that that's jsut nonsense😛