Blocks and Additives??

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

RxBoy

Full Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2008
Messages
799
Reaction score
150
Really been hammering some regional this month at our ASC rotation. Place pretty much just does ortho. Been reading a lot about additives and wondering what some of the peeps at SDN have been using. For continuous cath, we just use straight local for infusion and send them home with a On-Q pump. However for the bolus dose or single shots, I wanted to try some different recipes.

Any additives being used in:

PNB?

Neuraxial? (other than opiates)

Ive heard decadron really prolongs PNB blocks, but haven't found any reputable literature sources other than articles written in nepal. There is also the whole kitchen sink of additives clonidine, ketamine, epi, opiates, ect.. Curious what you guys have been using.
 
I was adding dexamethasone to almost all of my single shot blocks until our pharmacy stopped stocking the preservative-free stuff.

Thanks PGG. This is amazing. I am shocked there still isn't any articles in the major journals (A&A or anesthesiology). Maybe that will be my next project.
 
i work at a hospital heavy in ortho w a very heavy asc heavy in ortho as part of practice- my other jobs we used epi in blocks and mixed bupiv/mepiv- here we do straight naropin .5% with decadron 8 mg- great results, very long blocks. this is standard for most. some leave out depending on diabetic/ or insulin dependent. then just straight naropin.👍
 
Blade... I know you have been experimenting with additives in PNBs..

What solutions are you using now? Whats your experience with decadron?
 
Blade... I know you have been experimenting with additives in PNBs..

What solutions are you using now? Whats your experience with decadron?

I'm sold on decadron. I've been using it for a while now and so far no complications. I use 4 mg or 8 mg of decadron mixed with 0.5 percent Rop (20-25 mls). My post op pain relief ranges from a low of 20 hrs to 26 hrs (only 8 mg gets me past 24 hrs).

If I utilize 0.5 percent Bup then my range is 22-42 hours of post op pain relief. A wider range but much more likely to exceed 24 hrs with 8 mg of decadron. One thing to be aware of is the motor block with 0.5 percent Rop is 12-16 hrs vs 16-20 hrs with 0.5 percent Bup (when decadron 8mg is added).

I try to time the block so my motor block is gone in the early AM. I find that 8mg vs 4mg of decadron adds about 2 hrs to the block duration with 0.5 percent Rop. With Bup the variability seems much more patient dependent.

If I'm trying to obtain more than 26 hrs of post op pain relief and the long motor block is not an issue then 0.5 percent Bup with 8 mg Decadron is the ticket.


One more thing be careful in diabetics. When I've added a tiny dose of decadron (2mg) I've gotten quite a few prolonged blocks. I'm wary of adding decadron to the mixture for diabetics but I have added just 2 mg to the Rop with good results.

Decadron has allowed me to reduce the placement of catheters significantly and the future is single shot blocks which last 2-3 days.

If I was having surgery then a single shot block with 8 mg of decadron would be just fine thank you.
 
Blade... I know you have been experimenting with additives in PNBs..

What solutions are you using now? Whats your experience with decadron?

All additives for PNB are useless when used with long acting local anesthetics except for steroids.
 
All additives for PNB are useless when used with long acting local anesthetics except for steroids.

True. Only steroids prolong the nerve block and my experience shows Decadron works quite well with Bup or Rop. Forget the other stuff and stick with the decadron.
 
True. Only steroids prolong the nerve block and my experience shows Decadron works quite well with Bup or Rop. Forget the other stuff and stick with the decadron.

Never used steroids in pnb before. gonna give it a try, thnx. does it have to be dexamethasone and does it have to be the preservative-free stuff?
 
Decadron has allowed me to reduce the placement of catheters significantly and the future is single shot blocks which last 2-3 days.

Is there something being developed that will cause a single shot to last 2-3 days? I'm just curious because I hate all the catheter rounding I have to do right now.
 
Actually this drug is in use currently. One of my pharmacy buddies from the clinic said its on formulary. Its use currently is for local infiltration in butt cases.
 
Liposomal bupivacaine is on the market as Exparel. It is for surgical infiltration only, right now. Butt cases. Some Orthopods near us use it for intracapsular injection during total knee replacement to avoid CFNB weakness. There are no studies of this formulation being used in nerve blocks (I don't know why; maybe there is a mechanical/chemical reason)

Microencapsulated bupivacaine is different, and not on the market, as far as I know. And this is the first article I've seen on using this in nerve blocks, and it's only in rat sciatic nerve so far. But the article is positive, so I suspect it will eventually be used in our practices. It remains to be seen how dense the block is after 24h -- the titratability of CPNB might keep it alive. Which makes me ask, why bupivacaine? Why not research microencapsulated ropivicaine?
 
First patient enrolled in two-part study to assess the safety and efficacy of EXPAREL in femoral nerve block.
Parsippany, NJ (PRWEB) October 10, 2012
<a title="Pacira Pharmaceuticals | Official Site" href="http://www.pacira.com/index.php">Pacira Pharmaceuticals, Inc. (NASDAQ: PCRX) today announced initiation of its Phase 2/3 pivotal trial of EXPAREL® (bupivacaine liposome injectable suspension) administered as a single-dose injection femoral nerve block for total knee arthroplasty surgery. Results from this study and a forthcoming second trial focused on intercostal nerve block for thoracotomy will contribute to a planned U.S. Food and Drug Administration supplemental New Drug Application (sNDA) filing in late 2013 or early 2014.
The first of approximately 280 patients undergoing total knee arthroplasty (TKA) has been enrolled in the study. Designed as a two-part study, the first part will evaluate the safety and efficacy of three doses of EXPAREL to identify a single therapeutic dose for further investigation. In the second part of the study, patients will receive either the selected dose of EXPAREL or placebo as a femoral nerve block.


Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/business/prweb/article/Pacira-Pharmaceuticals-Inc-Launches-EXPAREL-R-3937207.php#ixzz29H6OCntP
 
Very interesting, Blade.
I'm surprised they are trialing it on TKR. They're going to probably see lots of quad weakness and delayed discharge if they track it. If not, I'd be very surprised and elated. Maybe they already know that the extended block is mainly sensory and not motor. I think TAP and TPVB would be the ones to study because you don't weaken an extremity.
 
What's the mechanism of steroids prolonging pnb's? Also are u using them for isb's/scb's?

The steroids absorbs some of the local and then re-releases it slowly-- Essentially a controlled release preperation. Steroids are also membrane "stabilizers".
 
Single shot femorals are counter-productive for TKAs after 16-24 hrs... especially if you are trying to get your patients to do laps on the floor on POD 0.
 
Single shot femorals are counter-productive for TKAs after 16-24 hrs... especially if you are trying to get your patients to do laps on the floor on POD 0.


Try 0.25% Rop with Decadron 8 mg. I'm getting about 18-20 hours of post op analgesia and patients can easily ambulate with assistance (older crowd). Younger patients under 65 can usually ambulate without assistance (but there is still someone there).

Single shot blocks are effective, simple and proven for total knee replacement.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11744586

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19019663
 
Last edited:
What's the mechanism of steroids prolonging pnb's? Also are u using them for isb's/scb's?

I'm getting 22 hours on the low end and 40+ hours on the high end for single shot Supraclavicular blocks using 30 mls of 0.5% Bup with Decadron 8 mg.

I can't break 24 hours post op analgesia on a consistent basis using Rop 0.5% with decadron (usually 20-24 hrs).

The longest single shot blocks IMHO are ISB, SCB followed by Femoral when utilizing decadron. I do not add Decadron to my Sciatic or popliteal blocks (although you could do so for amputations, femoral artery bypass, etc).

My Infraclavicular blocks seem to last a few hours less than SCB and I'm not certain as to the reason. Could it be the axillary vein is in close proximity to the local?
 
Try 0.25% Rop with Decadron 8 mg. I'm getting about 18-20 hours of post op analgesia and patients can easily ambulate with assistance (older crowd). Younger patients under 65 can usually ambulate without assistance (but there is still someone there).

Single shot blocks are effective, simple and proven for total knee replacement.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11744586

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19019663

I remember reading a couple of studies that compared 4mg vs 8mg of decadron. If I remember correctly, there wasn't a statistical difference in duration or analgesia between the two. 4mg. was just as good as 8mg. I'll have to double check though.

I agree that using decadron does cut down on your total dose significantly. It's a great addition to your single shots.

How much .25% ropi are you using? 10-15 mls for femorals?
 
I remember reading a couple of studies that compared 4mg vs 8mg of decadron. If I remember correctly, there wasn't a statistical difference in duration or analgesia between the two. 4mg. was just as good as 8mg. I'll have to double check though.

I agree that using decadron does cut down on your total dose significantly. It's a great addition to your single shots.

How much .25% ropi are you using? 10-15 mls for femorals?

I agree with you about the decadron dosage. I've found that doubling the dose from 4mg to 8mg only adds about an hour to post op pain relief. Not much. I've also found that in diabetics 2mg prolongs the block significantly. Perhaps, the minimum effective dose is 2 mg?

I utilize 20 mls of 0.25 percent Ropivacaine with Decadron for my Femoral blocks and I'm getting close to 20 hours of pain relief consistently.
 
http://bja.oxfordjournals.org/content/98/6/823.full.pdf


The author of this study found the ED 95 for a successful Femoral block was 22 ml. But, others have suggested lower volumes can be utilized wth good success. IMHO, volumes of 15-20 mls with decadron are sufficient for a good Femoral block when ultrasound is utilized to place the block.

I use 20 mls because I have wiggle room to optimize my block in cases where the femoral nerve is difficult to visualize. But, if the nerve is clearly defined on u/s I have no doubt 15 mls will get the job done. Since I'm placing a single shot block I see little reason not to use sufficient volume based on the best available evidence.

In my practice ED95 is not acceptable. I want ED99.9. That is why I use u/s and 20 mls
 
Last edited:
http://bja.oxfordjournals.org/content/98/6/823.full.pdf


The author of this study found the ED 95 for a successful Femoral block was 22 ml. But, others have suggested lower volumes can be utilized wth good success. IMHO, volumes of 15-20 mls with decadron are sufficient for a good Femoral block when ultrasound is utilized to place the block.

I use 20 mls because I have wiggle room to optimize my block in cases where the femoral nerve is difficult to visualize. But, if the nerve is clearly defined on u/s I have no doubt 15 mls will get the job done. Since I'm placing a single shot block I see little reason not to use sufficient volume based on the best available evidence.

In my practice ED95 is not acceptable. I want ED99.9. That is why I use u/s and 20 mls

👍

Placing the needle tip under the FN and watching the LA head towards the FA is the way to go. That seems to help achieve 99.9.
 
👍

Placing the needle tip under the FN and watching the LA head towards the FA is the way to go. That seems to help achieve 99.9.

That's fine. A guru told me he now does femoral blocks under spinal. He places the needle lateral to the nerve and under the fascia iliaca. If a stimulator is used no injection occurs unless greater than 1.0 ma for a twitch.

I personally like to see local surround the entire nerve when I do a block. But my decades of experience using the blind nerve stimulator technique has taught me that successful femoral blocks don't require perfection just local under the fascia iliaca in proximity to the femoral nerve
 
But my decades of experience using the blind nerve stimulator technique has taught me that successful femoral blocks don't require perfection just local under the fascia iliaca in proximity to the femoral nerve

My femoral block really ends up being an ultrasound guided fascia iliaca a lot of the time. You can see the FI investing over the femoral artery, and you can see & feel the needle pop through it.

I use PF decadron. Google your decadron. You may be suprised to learn it is actually preservative free.

Our decadron all has preservative, and I had our pharmacists check to ensure that there isn't any in the hospital. Could you tell me the NDC number off the vials, so I can have them order some?

Using Ropiv or Bupiv, I'm getting 8-12 hours on my ISB, and I'd like to add something to prolong them.
 
Continuous Femoral Nerve Blocks: The Impact of Catheter Tip Location Relative to the Femoral Nerve (Anterior Versus Posterior) on Quadriceps Weakness and Cutaneous Sensory Block
Brian M. Ilfeld, MD, MS*, Vanessa J. Loland, MD*, NavParkash S. Sandhu, MD*, Preetham J. Suresh, MD*, Michael J. Bishop, MD*, Michael C. Donohue, PhD&#8224;, Eliza J. Ferguson, BS* and Sarah J. Madison, MD*
+ Author Affiliations

From the Departments of *Anesthesiology and &#8224;Biostatistics and Bioinformatics, University of California San Diego, San Diego, California.
Address correspondence to Brian M. Ilfeld, MD, MS, Department of Anesthesiology, University of California San Diego, 200 West Arbor Dr., San Diego, CA 92103-8770. Address e-mail to [email protected].
Abstract

BACKGROUND: During a continuous femoral nerve block, the influence of catheter tip position relative to the femoral nerve on infusion characteristics remains unknown.

METHODS: We inserted bilateral femoral perineural catheters in volunteers (ultrasound-guided, needle in-plane). Subjects' dominant side was randomized to have the catheter tip placed either anterior or posterior to the femoral nerve. The contralateral limb received the alternative position. Ropivacaine 0.1% was administered through both catheters concurrently for 6 hours (4 mL/h). Outcome measures included the maximum voluntary isometric contraction (MVIC) of the quadriceps femoris muscle and tolerance to cutaneous electrical current over to the distal quadriceps tendon. Measurements were performed at hour 0 (baseline), and on the hour until hour 9, as well as hour 22. The primary end point was the MVIC of the quadriceps at hour 6.

RESULTS: As a percentage of the baseline measurement, quadriceps MVIC for limbs with anterior (n = 16) and posterior (n = 16) catheter tip placement did not differ to a statistically significant degree at hour 6 (mean [SD] 29% [26] vs 30% [28], respectively; 95% confidence interval: &#8722;22% to 20%; P = 0.931), or at any other time point. However, the maximum tolerance to cutaneous electrical current was higher in limbs with anterior compared with posterior catheter tip placement at hour 6 (20 [23] mA vs 6 [4] mA, respectively; 95% confidence interval: 1&#8211;27 mA; P = 0.035), as well as at hours 1, 7, 8, and 9 (P < 0.04).

CONCLUSIONS: This study documents the significant (70%&#8211;80%) quadriceps femoris weakness induced by a continuous femoral nerve block infusion at a relatively low dose of ropivacaine (4 mg/h) delivered through a perineural catheter located both anterior and posterior to the femoral nerve. In contrast, an anterior placement increases cutaneous sensory block compared with a posterior insertion, without a concurrent relative increase in motor block.
 
My femoral block really ends up being an ultrasound guided fascia iliaca a lot of the time. You can see the FI investing over the femoral artery, and you can see & feel the needle pop through it.



Our decadron all has preservative, and I had our pharmacists check to ensure that there isn't any in the hospital. Could you tell me the NDC number off the vials, so I can have them order some?

Using Ropiv or Bupiv, I'm getting 8-12 hours on my ISB, and I'd like to add something to prolong them.

http://www.apppharma.com/our-products/preservative-free/product-32.html


If you are doing u/s guided ISB and using a nerve stimulator (twitch at greater than 0.5 but less than 1.0) then the block should last a minimum of 12 hours with most lasting 16 hours or longer with bupivacaine. Please make sure your volume is 25 mls and you are using 0.5 percent. If you add decadron to the mix then the block will reliably deliver 24 hrs of post op pain relief.

Once you achieve the 24 hours plus duration of pain relief then decrease the volume to 20 mls. I find that 20 mls still gets you 24 hours of pain relief but fewer patients get those extra long 40 hour blocks.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for the link - that's exactly what I needed.

I recently finished residency, and I do my blocks with pure U/S guidance. I could use a nerve stim in a pinch, but it's ugly. It's exceedingly rare for me to have a failed block; I honestly don't remember having a failed ISB since early in training.

I can see the nerves well & get great images of LA surrounding them. My blocks seem to work great, sometimes even as the sole anesthetic. I'm just not getting many beyond 12 hours on interscalenes. Lower extremity last much longer for me.

I'm using 0.5% (has usually been ropiv, recently switched more to bupiv). I've been giving about 22ml (I maximally overfill a 20ml syringe for simplicity).

Not sure why I'm not getting more mileage out of those upper extremity blocks...
 
A Comparison of the Pharmacodynamics and Pharmacokinetics of Bupivacaine, Ropivacaine (with Epinephrine) and Their Equal Volume Mixtures with Lidocaine Used for Femoral and Sciatic Nerve Blocks: A Double-Blind Randomized Study


Click on image to view larger version.


 
Thanks for the link - that's exactly what I needed.

I recently finished residency, and I do my blocks with pure U/S guidance. I could use a nerve stim in a pinch, but it's ugly. It's exceedingly rare for me to have a failed block; I honestly don't remember having a failed ISB since early in training.

I can see the nerves well & get great images of LA surrounding them. My blocks seem to work great, sometimes even as the sole anesthetic. I'm just not getting many beyond 12 hours on interscalenes. Lower extremity last much longer for me.

I'm using 0.5% (has usually been ropiv, recently switched more to bupiv). I've been giving about 22ml (I maximally overfill a 20ml syringe for simplicity).

Not sure why I'm not getting more mileage out of those upper extremity blocks...

I don't NEED u/s any longer for blocks. I utilize U/S for ISB and Femoral blocks as an additional safety tool.

If you are depositing the local at C5/C6 near the nerve root and using 20 mls of volume then I am not sure why your blocks don't last longer. Are you near the nerve root (that is why I mentioned the nerve stimulator)/ Are you moving your needle away from the nerve root during injection?

Try the Decadron additive to the 0.5% Bup and your bolcks will exceed 24 hours. The motor component of the block itself will last 20-22 hrs with an additional 6-8 hours of sensory block.
 
My femoral block really ends up being an ultrasound guided fascia iliaca a lot of the time. You can see the FI investing over the femoral artery, and you can see & feel the needle pop through.

As an aside, this is actually a common misconception regarding the relevant anatomy for a femoral nerve block. It is the fascia lata(FL) that travels superficial to the femoral vessels, not the fascia iliaca(FI). The FI invests the iliacus muscle, and as it travels from lateral to medial it will invariably travel deep to the femoral vessels, not above it. This is one of the tricks of US scanning that can help you identify the femoral nerve in cases where the sonoanatomy is tricky. The nerve is always tightly "sandwiched" between the iliacus muscle and the FI. If you think you've identified FI, but it courses above the femoral vessels as you scan from lateral to medial, you're actually looking at FL and your local may not end up being deposited perineurally if you inject directly below it. For this reason i almost always attempt to identify the iliacus muscle first, which leads me to the FI and then the femoral nerve.

Here's a nice anatomic rendering that illustrates this relationship. http://usfa.co.uk/
 
I still think my blocks are FI. The image I usually see is similar to the drawing - without the little in-pouching of the FI.

The majority of the time it appears to come off the artery at 9:00 on the vessel (so in the drawing, if you removed the inpocketing of the FI, making it go straight across, that's exactly what I see on U/S).

When I start to inject, if the nerves weren't clear before, they usually become obvious when surrounded by LA.
 
Update:

Infraclavicular blocks with decadron. Ropivacaine lasts 17-24 hrs. Bupivacaine lasts 22-28 hrs.

If you utilize Bupivacaine wth Decadron (30 ml) most patients will get a motor block of 18-20 hrs and additional sensory block hrs. Hence, an infraclavicular block and not just a supraclavicular block can be used for a long post op pain block.

Yes, supraclavicular blocks do last a bit longer than infraclavicular blocks especially when using Ropivacaine. But, if you don't mind using 30 mls of 0.5 percent Bup with decadron an infraclavicular block becomes a reliable 24 hrs of post op pain relief.
 
In my extensive experience these blocks will routinely meet or exceed 24 hrs of post op pain relief when Bupivacaine (at least 20 mls, maybe 30 for ICB) with Decadron (at least 4 mg) is utilized:

1. Interscalene
2. Supraclavicular
3. Femoral
4. Sciatic
5. Infraclavicular

I don't have enough Axillary blocks yet with the Bup/decadron combo but I suspect a high volume (30-40 ml) 0.5% Bup Block with 8 mg of decadron would get real close to the 24 hr mark.
 
Good to hear infraclavicular single shot can last a whole day. Keep us updated on ax block with Steroids, it's got to be the easiest of the brachial plexus blocks to teach my partners, due to the low depth
 
resurrecting an old thread... anyone using Dexmedetomidine as an additive in their block these days?
 
I used it in my own ISB (75mcg, along with 2mg decadron) when I had an arthroscopy for repair of a labral tear. The block lasted for around 36 hours, although the precise duration was hard to tell, as the block slowly faded over the final ten hours. A few weeks later, we used the same cocktail for one of the CRNAs who was also undergoing a shoulder scope, and he reported a similar experience. I'm likely to use it again selectively for patients I can trust not to be idiots, as my motor block wore off while I still had a significant sensory block.

Sent from my SM-G920V using SDN mobile
 
I used it in my own ISB (75mcg, along with 2mg decadron) when I had an arthroscopy for repair of a labral tear. The block lasted for around 36 hours, although the precise duration was hard to tell, as the block slowly faded over the final ten hours. A few weeks later, we used the same cocktail for one of the CRNAs who was also undergoing a shoulder scope, and he reported a similar experience. I'm likely to use it again selectively for patients I can trust not to be idiots, as my motor block wore off while I still had a significant sensory block.

Sent from my SM-G920V using SDN mobile
That's my experience with decadron alone.
 
I used it in my own ISB (75mcg, along with 2mg decadron) when I had an arthroscopy for repair of a labral tear. The block lasted for around 36 hours, although the precise duration was hard to tell, as the block slowly faded over the final ten hours. A few weeks later, we used the same cocktail for one of the CRNAs who was also undergoing a shoulder scope, and he reported a similar experience. I'm likely to use it again selectively for patients I can trust not to be idiots, as my motor block wore off while I still had a significant sensory block.

Sent from my SM-G920V using SDN mobile
What local and volume?
 
What local and volume?
Ropivacaine 0.5% 25mL, I believe (most here do 20-30mL). Noyac, I haven't seen durations that long with just 2mg decadron added to 0.5% rop for an ISB. Usually, that only extended duration to 24-28hrs. Also, I definitely noticed some systemic absorption of the precedex, as I was awake during my shoulder scope, but felt myself getting tired and cross-eyed, and heard my pulse-ox beeping at a rate in the 50s. Overall, it was a great experience.

Sent from my SM-G920V using SDN mobile
 
Ropivacaine 0.5% 25mL, I believe (most here do 20-30mL). Noyac, I haven't seen durations that long with just 2mg decadron added to 0.5% rop for an ISB. Usually, that only extended duration to 24-28hrs. Also, I definitely noticed some systemic absorption of the precedex, as I was awake during my shoulder scope, but felt myself getting tired and cross-eyed, and heard my pulse-ox beeping at a rate in the 50s. Overall, it was a great experience.

Sent from my SM-G920V using SDN mobile

That's why you need to be cautious with using Precedex in your blocks for the elderly having outpatient procedures. They could experience a drop in BP leading to dizziness with an increased risk of falling.
 
Ropivacaine 0.5% 25mL, I believe (most here do 20-30mL). Noyac, I haven't seen durations that long with just 2mg decadron added to 0.5% rop for an ISB. Usually, that only extended duration to 24-28hrs. Also, I definitely noticed some systemic absorption of the precedex, as I was awake during my shoulder scope, but felt myself getting tired and cross-eyed, and heard my pulse-ox beeping at a rate in the 50s. Overall, it was a great experience.

Sent from my SM-G920V using SDN mobile
I usually do 0.5% bupi (30ml) with decadron. Usually getting 24-30 hours. I wonder also about the bupi vs ropi difference. There is some literature out there suggesting bupi lasts longer than ropi but it depends on the study.
 
Top