Brigade Surgeon slot

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Thyroid Storm
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  1. Attending Physician
Well here's one more reason to get out of the military!

Recently my surgical sub-specialty field's consultant just let us know that a few of us will be forced to fill Brigade surgeon slots for 2 years. That means no practicing medicine in our field or performing any surgery for 2 years! Most likely the doctors will be rank of Major or LTC (although CPT (P)'s would are also eligable).

In my opinion this is practically a career destroyer. I can't imagine not practicing medicine for 2 years and then trying to get back into it, especially as a surgeon.

At the very least you'd be unemployable in the civilian world. So if you have two years left and got selected, you'd basically be forced to stay in the military.
 
This one is really really bad - it is real and happening to people I know who may never recover from the skill destruction the military will mete out. Run from the military, please it is imploding.
 
Well here's one more reason to get out of the military!

Recently my surgical sub-specialty field's consultant just let us know that a few of us will be forced to fill Brigade surgeon slots for 2 years. That means no practicing medicine in our field or performing any surgery for 2 years! Most likely the doctors will be rank of Major or LTC (although CPT (P)'s would are also eligable).

In my opinion this is practically a career destroyer. I can't imagine not practicing medicine for 2 years and then trying to get back into it, especially as a surgeon.

At the very least you'd be unemployable in the civilian world. So if you have two years left and got selected, you'd basically be forced to stay in the military.

Not long ago "they" came up with the grand push to have BDE surgeons be upper rank, no CPTs!!!

This fiasco is just one of the fallouts from that bad decision.

In my opinion, starting out in an operational spot as a CPT and then earning your preferred spot as a MAJ was a rite of passage. Well, not anymore!
 
I've occasionally wondered how I would handle being put in a GMO billet again. As the Navy's GMO billets are being slowly converted to BE/BC positions, it's mostly doctors trained in primary care who are getting those assignments, which I guess is the most appropriate solution. Even though it is perhaps professionally abusive to them, too. It's extremely unlikely that I'd ever get orders like that again, but nonzero.

To tell the truth, I don't think I'd be safely competent to practice that kind of medicine now. It's been quite a few years since I was a GMO and barely comfortable with it (and I think perhaps I was even naively/inappropriately comfortable with it then). I think I would refuse to see patients outright, and I think that would upset some people. I hope to never find out.



I wonder what would happen - I mean what would really happen - if the people they put in those Brigade Surgeon positions simply said they didn't feel capable of handling those jobs due to their completely different training and total lack of preparation for them. And then simply delegated every single thing that came to them to a subordinate, and took zero initiative to do anything. Kind of a passive-aggressive "I ain't touchin' that" stance.

I don't mean refusing to show up (being UA), or disobeying orders, or any kind of misconduct - I just mean a simple honest "hey, I feel totally unqualified and unprepared for this job and I don't want to screw it up and harm the service or the people I'm responsible for" followed by a genuine do-no-harm approach to doing as little as possible. This strikes me as both ethical and in keeping with our oaths to the service and patients.

Perhaps a promotion-killing black mark on the record, followed by being relieved and replaced with someone more appropriate for the job?

It's a tough problem, both for the doctor and the detailer.
 
I've occasionally wondered how I would handle being put in a GMO billet again. As the Navy's GMO billets are being slowly converted to BE/BC positions, it's mostly doctors trained in primary care who are getting those assignments, which I guess is the most appropriate solution. Even though it is perhaps professionally abusive to them, too. It's extremely unlikely that I'd ever get orders like that again, but nonzero.

To tell the truth, I don't think I'd be safely competent to practice that kind of medicine now. It's been quite a few years since I was a GMO and barely comfortable with it (and I think perhaps I was even naively/inappropriately comfortable with it then). I think I would refuse to see patients outright, and I think that would upset some people. I hope to never find out.



I wonder what would happen - I mean what would really happen - if the people they put in those Brigade Surgeon positions simply said they didn't feel capable of handling those jobs due to their completely different training and total lack of preparation for them. And then simply delegated every single thing that came to them to a subordinate, and took zero initiative to do anything. Kind of a passive-aggressive "I ain't touchin' that" stance.

I don't mean refusing to show up (being UA), or disobeying orders, or any kind of misconduct - I just mean a simple honest "hey, I feel totally unqualified and unprepared for this job and I don't want to screw it up and harm the service or the people I'm responsible for" followed by a genuine do-no-harm approach to doing as little as possible. This strikes me as both ethical and in keeping with our oaths to the service and patients.

Perhaps a promotion-killing black mark on the record, followed by being relieved and replaced with someone more appropriate for the job?

It's a tough problem, both for the doctor and the detailer.

BOy, it just doesn't work that way!! I was in a medical subspecialty and deployed as a battalion surgeon fresh out of residency. I was NOT board certified in my specialty or anything at the time. I had NOT taken ATLS in nearly four years. I did NOT have the opportunity to re-take ATLS or any type of combat trauma cause before deploying.

My battalion commander did NOT accept inadequate skill as an answer. To him, I was a doctor, thus, I should know how to practice general medicine, do trauma, simple office surgery, etc. Saying, "gee I am not comfortable with that" never flew!!

Now to us professionals, its makes perfect sense. Can you imagine a dermatologist setting a fracture or opthalmologist putting in a chest tube. If all of that sounds laughable, well, just go to theater and see.
 
BOy, it just doesn't work that way!! I was in a medical subspecialty and deployed as a battalion surgeon fresh out of residency. I was NOT board certified in my specialty or anything at the time. I had NOT taken ATLS in nearly four years. I did NOT have the opportunity to re-take ATLS or any type of combat trauma cause before deploying.

My battalion commander did NOT accept inadequate skill as an answer. To him, I was a doctor, thus, I should know how to practice general medicine, do trauma, simple office surgery, etc. Saying, "gee I am not comfortable with that" never flew!!

Now to us professionals, its makes perfect sense. Can you imagine a dermatologist setting a fracture or opthalmologist putting in a chest tube. If all of that sounds laughable, well, just go to theater and see.

It may not work that way now, but a few letters to congress critters followed by a phone call to a media outlet about how COC and congress is ignoring this, and...

Of course it would make for a very very uncomfortable remainder of your time in service.
 
BOy, it just doesn't work that way!! I was in a medical subspecialty and deployed as a battalion surgeon fresh out of residency. I was NOT board certified in my specialty or anything at the time. I had NOT taken ATLS in nearly four years. I did NOT have the opportunity to re-take ATLS or any type of combat trauma cause before deploying.

My battalion commander did NOT accept inadequate skill as an answer. To him, I was a doctor, thus, I should know how to practice general medicine, do trauma, simple office surgery, etc. Saying, "gee I am not comfortable with that" never flew!!

Now to us professionals, its makes perfect sense. Can you imagine a dermatologist setting a fracture or opthalmologist putting in a chest tube. If all of that sounds laughable, well, just go to theater and see.

That's just it though. What's the battalion commander going to do if you declare "I'm not that kind of doctor and it's inappropriate for me to take responsibility for it" and say NO. What's he going to do? Give you a bad fitrep, hurt your chances for promotion - maybe. Get rid of you - that seems more likely. The line has no power to make us practice in unsafe ways.

I'm not talking about (in an emergency when life/limb are at risk) reducing a fracture for transport or putting in a chest tube; any of us ought to be able to do that, and should do that. It's just ATLS ... though I think it's absurd that you were denied the chance to recert ATLS before deploying.

I'm talking about routine clinic work that's far out of our area of expertise. I just wonder how long I'd be left in that job if I medevac'd a bunch of non-lifethreatening injuries or issues (ankle sprains, abd pain). Or if I sent every depressed, anxious, or cluster-B-afflicted patient to a higher echelon of care to see someone else.

It would be an interesting series of conversations though, that's for sure ... and an interesting ADSO countdown too (or retirement countdown at your current now-terminal rank). 🙂


I also think it's a little different for medicine subspecialists. While it certainly sucks that they're being utilized as generalists after completing fellowship, at least they've completed a primary care residency.

I haven't done a pelvic exam in ten years and I wouldn't do one tomorrow because some colonel thought that's what people with acorny collar devices do.
 
If you do a brigade surgeon tour does it look good on your "Army career" record? Do you get a special warfare device? Just curious.
 
I'm one of the people that have been tasked with this. The 2-year tour represents the last two years of my ADSO, virtually guaranteeing that I have to stay in the Army in order to rehabilitate my skills. I'm just a little bitter at the moment.
 
If you do a brigade surgeon tour does it look good on your "Army career" record? Do you get a special warfare device? Just curious.

Didn't help me any
 
That's just it though. What's the battalion commander going to do if you declare "I'm not that kind of doctor and it's inappropriate for me to take responsibility for it" and say NO. What's he going to do? Give you a bad fitrep, hurt your chances for promotion - maybe. Get rid of you - that seems more likely. The line has no power to make us practice in unsafe ways.

I'm not talking about (in an emergency when life/limb are at risk) reducing a fracture for transport or putting in a chest tube; any of us ought to be able to do that, and should do that. It's just ATLS ... though I think it's absurd that you were denied the chance to recert ATLS before deploying.

I'm talking about routine clinic work that's far out of our area of expertise. I just wonder how long I'd be left in that job if I medevac'd a bunch of non-lifethreatening injuries or issues (ankle sprains, abd pain). Or if I sent every depressed, anxious, or cluster-B-afflicted patient to a higher echelon of care to see someone else.

It would be an interesting series of conversations though, that's for sure ... and an interesting ADSO countdown too (or retirement countdown at your current now-terminal rank). 🙂


I also think it's a little different for medicine subspecialists. While it certainly sucks that they're being utilized as generalists after completing fellowship, at least they've completed a primary care residency.

I haven't done a pelvic exam in ten years and I wouldn't do one tomorrow because some colonel thought that's what people with acorny collar devices do.

Okay, let me just share my experience as a BN surgeon during OIF with everybody here. Let me also make it clear that everybody has a different experience.

Back in my day, during OIF, down in Baghdad, the Victory Base Complex (VBC) has a CSH with some subspecialists on staff, combat stress trailers, dental clinics, and even optometrist available. They also had a bowling alley, nice gyms, DFAC that served very good food four times per day, very nice PX buildings, and food vendors (Burger King, Pizza Hut, etc).

If you were manning a TMC at VBC, life was not so bad. At worst, you lived in an aircondition CHU.

Now, I was out with an infantry battalion at a FOB outlying Baghdad. We had old buildings that were broken down, wiring on the outside of the walls, internet that worked on occasion via the 1990s modems, a gym with broken equipments, and a DFAC manned by 92G that were the bulk of my battalion aid station injuries!!

We had water tanks on the barracks that were for the showers only and infested with coloform. WE had no drinking water but like all FOBs were supplied with water bottles.

My aid station was an old garage with good trauma equipment and lots of drugs. The job was simple stuff, minor complaints such as skin problems, musculoskeletal pain, etc. Nothing that was really rocket science.

Now, I was not in a surgical based or primary care specialty, but I had to do sort of a general medicine internship year. During that internship, colleagues laughed at me for wanting to learn general medicine and I always said, "well, what happens when I go out as a GMO" and they laughed harder. Well, I did go out as a GMO and I was surprised how much of that stuff I could recall on the fly.

I performed very well and buffaloed my command into thinking I was the most brilliant doctor they had ever seen!! Boy, they had no idea that everyday I lived in fear of what would happen if all hell broke loose and I choked!!! I count my blessing that it never happened that way. Medical evacuation was not always a choice for non-life threatening things that were beyond my scope so I had to suck it up. Medical evacuation for non-life threatening items meant that the unit would just wait until they were passing by VBC on a routine mission and the soldier could catch a ride. That could take days!!!

My FOB literally had sewage seeping down the sidewalk and possibly buildings (I say possibly because I cannot tell you that that green stuff coming down the side of the building actually was?). The only way I made it through that deployment was by having good support and morale from the unit I was tagging along with. The FOB was VERY small and I literally saw the commander every single day sometimes multiple times per day!!!! There was no escape and he was very engaged in what I was doing (and not doing).

I will tell you all right now that there were days that I could have shown up at the aid station and had been the most passive aggressive jerk you had ever seen!! There were days that I was tempted to do so!! But I can also tell you that they would have made my life a living hell if I did that!! It was not VBC, it was a tiny $hit FOB and there was no escape.

Now I simply did the best I could and at the end of the tour managed to perform well and earned myself a very nice OER. I then went back to work in my primary specialty and nailed the boards whenever I got back (I mean I had a whole year to study). The real crime was that my skills atrophied while practicing CONUS due to a restricted patient population.

So that was the double edged sword!! One year away from my primary specialty and two years of limited exposure.

I applied for a fellowship for a second time and was told that they could not give it to me (insert lame excuses from OTSG consultant) and realized that my skills would continue to detiorate. I also realized that I had colleagues that would never see a deployment, received fellowships, and would always be awarded spots at major MTFs.

Needless to say, I got out before the knowledge of my primary specialty completely faded. I am now see lots of pathology within my specialty and once again actually enjoy my job and remember why I pursued a career in medicine in the first place. I also make twice as much money than I did while in the Army (for what its worth).

Look, we all go through these phases. As medical students, we are defensive of our decisions, we do ADTs at major MTFs and love it. Then we move onto residency and start to see what happens to our attendings. Suddenly, are eyes are open a little bit more. Then we graduate residency and most of us take a slot at a MEDDAC or operational assignment, do a deployment, and our eyes are opened even further.

Try an experiment if you have time. Pick a person on this forum who is now a med student. Look at their posts now. Follow them over time and watch how their posts dramatically change over the years!!

I enjoyed my time in the Army and I am proud of what I did and accomplished during those years. However, it took a toll on my family and it surely would have stained my career if I stayed in. As a former attending of mine once said, "The Army is good place to be from".
 
Well here's one more reason to get out of the military!

Recently my surgical sub-specialty field's consultant just let us know that a few of us will be forced to fill Brigade surgeon slots for 2 years. That means no practicing medicine in our field or performing any surgery for 2 years! Most likely the doctors will be rank of Major or LTC (although CPT (P)'s would are also eligable).

In my opinion this is practically a career destroyer. I can't imagine not practicing medicine for 2 years and then trying to get back into it, especially as a surgeon.

At the very least you'd be unemployable in the civilian world. So if you have two years left and got selected, you'd basically be forced to stay in the military.
The only silver lining here is that if you are tasked to be a BDE Surgeon you will likely have the opportunity to moonlight extensively while in garrison. At least in the Army, the maneuver brigades have PA's assigned to each BN, and a Doc and PA at the BSB. That means that the BDE Surgeon mostly oversees, rather than participates actively in patient (read sick call) care. I knew a BDE Surgeon type who was EM trained. He came to post about twice a week and moonlighted 3-4 days out of the rest. He made more $ moonlighting in 6 months than what the Army paid him over a year, including his skills bonus.

Now, this is not an option for everyone. But most line commanders, especially at the BDE level, really have no conception of what your job entails. If you sell the idea that moonlighting allows you to keep up your skills while in garrison, they are often receptive. Plus, at the BDE level you also have a PA who can manage sick call for the HHC element, you have a MED-O who does all of your trackers etc. Most line commanders in my experience, especially at higher echelons, care more about metrics than actual patient care (which they don't understand). If your MEB numbers are low and your readiness stats are high and you toss a z-pack at the BDE XO's viral cold every so often, they think you are the second coming of Hippocrates.

I think that the bigger threat to skill atrophy comes when you deploy and sit on your ass for a year in some hole seeing jock itch and gastroenteritis.

This might sound strange, but as a specialist assigned to a line unit you could stand a better chance of keeping your skills up than one of your colleagues who is rotting at a MEDDAC and doing surgery one day a week, because at the MEDDAC you will be cowmanded by evil nurses and MSC's who will definitely not be receptive to you moonlighting.

So there might be a silver lining here, depending on the imminence of a deployment and a receptive chain of command, but it is definitely worth exploring should you be tasked to fill one of these slots.

Good luck and get off of this sinking ship as soon as you can.

P.S: Did anyone else notice that Nurse Horoho is now wearing a combat patch? Apparently she "deployed" to Bagram for 3 weeks in 2011 as the "special assistant to the ISAF commander." Now she's not only a "nurse hero" but a combat-tested one at that!
 
The only silver lining here is that if you are tasked to be a BDE Surgeon you will likely have the opportunity to moonlight extensively while in garrison. At least in the Army, the maneuver brigades have PA's assigned to each BN, and a Doc and PA at the BSB. That means that the BDE Surgeon mostly oversees, rather than participates actively in patient (read sick call) care. I knew a BDE Surgeon type who was EM trained. He came to post about twice a week and moonlighted 3-4 days out of the rest. He made more $ moonlighting in 6 months than what the Army paid him over a year, including his skills bonus.

Now, this is not an option for everyone. But most line commanders, especially at the BDE level, really have no conception of what your job entails. If you sell the idea that moonlighting allows you to keep up your skills while in garrison, they are often receptive. Plus, at the BDE level you also have a PA who can manage sick call for the HHC element, you have a MED-O who does all of your trackers etc. Most line commanders in my experience, especially at higher echelons, care more about metrics than actual patient care (which they don't understand). If your MEB numbers are low and your readiness stats are high and you toss a z-pack at the BDE XO's viral cold every so often, they think you are the second coming of Hippocrates.

I think that the bigger threat to skill atrophy comes when you deploy and sit on your ass for a year in some hole seeing jock itch and gastroenteritis.

This might sound strange, but as a specialist assigned to a line unit you could stand a better chance of keeping your skills up than one of your colleagues who is rotting at a MEDDAC and doing surgery one day a week, because at the MEDDAC you will be cowmanded by evil nurses and MSC's who will definitely not be receptive to you moonlighting.

So there might be a silver lining here, depending on the imminence of a deployment and a receptive chain of command, but it is definitely worth exploring should you be tasked to fill one of these slots.

Good luck and get off of this sinking ship as soon as you can.

P.S: Did anyone else notice that Nurse Horoho is now wearing a combat patch? Apparently she "deployed" to Bagram for 3 weeks in 2011 as the "special assistant to the ISAF commander." Now she's not only a "nurse hero" but a combat-tested one at that!

I really like your take on the whole situation.........if one could extensively moonlight then you might be able to make some pretty darn sweet lemonade from those lemons.
 
I'm one of the people that have been tasked with this. The 2-year tour represents the last two years of my ADSO, virtually guaranteeing that I have to stay in the Army in order to rehabilitate my skills. I'm just a little bitter at the moment.
Holy **** - a subspecialty trained radiologist got tapped to be a BDE surgeon? - freaking insane.
 
The only silver lining here is that if you are tasked to be a BDE Surgeon you will likely have the opportunity to moonlight extensively while in garrison. At least in the Army, the maneuver brigades have PA's assigned to each BN, and a Doc and PA at the BSB. That means that the BDE Surgeon mostly oversees, rather than participates actively in patient (read sick call) care. I knew a BDE Surgeon type who was EM trained. He came to post about twice a week and moonlighted 3-4 days out of the rest. He made more $ moonlighting in 6 months than what the Army paid him over a year, including his skills bonus.

Now, this is not an option for everyone. But most line commanders, especially at the BDE level, really have no conception of what your job entails. If you sell the idea that moonlighting allows you to keep up your skills while in garrison, they are often receptive. Plus, at the BDE level you also have a PA who can manage sick call for the HHC element, you have a MED-O who does all of your trackers etc. Most line commanders in my experience, especially at higher echelons, care more about metrics than actual patient care (which they don't understand). If your MEB numbers are low and your readiness stats are high and you toss a z-pack at the BDE XO's viral cold every so often, they think you are the second coming of Hippocrates.

I think that the bigger threat to skill atrophy comes when you deploy and sit on your ass for a year in some hole seeing jock itch and gastroenteritis.

This might sound strange, but as a specialist assigned to a line unit you could stand a better chance of keeping your skills up than one of your colleagues who is rotting at a MEDDAC and doing surgery one day a week, because at the MEDDAC you will be cowmanded by evil nurses and MSC's who will definitely not be receptive to you moonlighting.

So there might be a silver lining here, depending on the imminence of a deployment and a receptive chain of command, but it is definitely worth exploring should you be tasked to fill one of these slots.

Good luck and get off of this sinking ship as soon as you can.

P.S: Did anyone else notice that Nurse Horoho is now wearing a combat patch? Apparently she "deployed" to Bagram for 3 weeks in 2011 as the "special assistant to the ISAF commander." Now she's not only a "nurse hero" but a combat-tested one at that!
Like everything in the AMEDD, her combat patch is a farce - and her deployment was only designed to give her a right shoulder patch.

It all is a big farce - trust me. No TDY's for CME - what a sorry organization and the nurse can own flushing the system down the crapper.
 
Holy **** - a subspecialty trained radiologist got tapped to be a BDE surgeon? - freaking insane.

Nine radiologists have been tasked.

They are apparently violating their own regulations. Radiology is not listed as an acceptable primary, secondary, or tertiary AOC for brigade surgeon.

Awesomeness abounds.
 
Like everything in the AMEDD, her combat patch is a farce - and her deployment was only designed to give her a right shoulder patch.

It all is a big farce - trust me. No TDY's for CME - what a sorry organization and the nurse can own flushing the system down the crapper.

Hey, before you flame Horoho, just realize that this type of political crap goes on with our own docs as well.
 
What a joke. I was almost tasked 2 years ago but right at the last moment I was told it was "voluntary." Basically I was almost "conned" into it. I hate military medicine and everything the leadership stands for. Productivity doesn't matter but attending committtee meetings and staying up-to-date on APEQS training means everything. Completely unbelievable! I will actively recruit AGAINST HPSP/USUHS at local colleges/medical schools once I am out in little over a year.
 
The only silver lining here is that if you are tasked to be a BDE Surgeon you will likely have the opportunity to moonlight extensively while in garrison.

Surgical sub-specialists can't just do a few surgeries every other Saturday. Moonlighting doesn't work that way (at least not for my field).

Moonlighting works great for some fields like ER, and perhaps even radiology. But not so much for surgical sub-specialists.
 
I'm one of the people that have been tasked with this. The 2-year tour represents the last two years of my ADSO, virtually guaranteeing that I have to stay in the Army in order to rehabilitate my skills. I'm just a little bitter at the moment.

OUCH! Thats rough man, I thought you were almost out. My condolences! Hopefully you'll be able to work out some moonlighting.
 
People may be confusing Brigade surgeon for battalion surgeon. The Brigade surgeon is the chief medical officer for the brigade. It's a mostly administrative position. Any medical specialist can do it because it involves very little patient care. It's similar to being the DCCS of a MTF. Currently an interventional radiologist is the DCCS of my crappy MEDDAC. He does close to zero interventional cases let alone diagnostic radiology.

It similarly applies to brigade surgeon. It a series of endless meetings with the line command staff. Writing memos. Overseeing medboards etc. The battalion surgeon is the one who does sick call, clinic and the like in garrison or while in theater.

My wife's friend who's an Army anesthesiology staff was tasked to do brigade surgeon slot. It's mostly paperwork.
 
Surgical sub-specialists can't just do a few surgeries every other Saturday. Moonlighting doesn't work that way (at least not for my field).

Moonlighting works great for some fields like ER, and perhaps even radiology. But not so much for surgical sub-specialists.
This is very true. Moonlighting is at the discretion of your Commander who being a line guy is highly likely to decline as he/she will be jealous you can make money outside the military Options are limited by specialty, geography, and many other arcane regulations surrounding moonlighting to make it that much less doable.

Can you imagine graduating from a fellowship and being rewarded with two years of profession paralysis so you become thoroughly incompetent and unemployable so the Army can have the warm fuzzy feeling that an O-4 is in a position that a PA could fill?
 
People may be confusing Brigade surgeon for battalion surgeon. The Brigade surgeon is the chief medical officer for the brigade. It's a mostly administrative position. Any medical specialist can do it because it involves very little patient care. It's similar to being the DCCS of a MTF. Currently an interventional radiologist is the DCCS of my crappy MEDDAC. He does close to zero interventional cases let alone diagnostic radiology.

It similarly applies to brigade surgeon. It a series of endless meetings with the line command staff. Writing memos. Overseeing medboards etc. The battalion surgeon is the one who does sick call, clinic and the like in garrison or while in theater.

My wife's friend who's an Army anesthesiology staff was tasked to do brigade surgeon slot. It's mostly paperwork.

Yes, there is a hierarchy

Battalion Surgeon < Brigade Surgeon < Division Surgeon < Corps Surgeon

The higher you go up the chain, the less the patient care, the more the paperwork, and the higher the power that you have to answer to.

Here is the big problem that I feel is on the horizon for now.

In my opinion, battalion and brigade surgeon spots should be tasked out to Captains or young Majors, early assignments, take your beating, learn a thing or two about the Army and operational medicine. After that, you can move on in life. Either get out of the Army, take a spot more in line with your specialty, pursue a fellowship, or if you enjoyed it, pursue higher spots at the division or corps level as you gain rank. With this model, you have nothing to do but look forward and have something to gain.

Now, they are demanding these spots must be given to more experienced docs, that is, no longer Captains fresh out of residency. Now, on the line side of the house, I see their argument as they would now have more experienced docs in these positions. However, I see it as a method of losing doctors and further disgruntlement. With this model, this leads one to have nothing to look forward to, only looking backwards.

Hey, at the end of the day, we all signed up for the military. If anybody here went down to their recruiter's office actually believing that all that glitters is gold and that you would always get what you wanted and there would never be a day/time where you had to take your turn with a beating, then you were kidding yourself (of fell for a line from a crappy recruiter).

The Army is in a crisis. They need docs!!! They actually pay civilian contractors well, but do a crappy job at recruiting them. They leave little incentive to stay in. They pay some specialist garbage. I easily doubled my income whenever I got out. I am not an opthalmologist, but has anybody seen what the Army pays them? Its pathetic compared to what an opthalmologist is making on the outside!!
 
I have known several BDE Surgeons who were ER trained who had no difficulty moonlighting. It's all about how you sell it to your commander. If you have a good relationship with him, and take care of the BDE Staff, and aren't delinquent in your administrative duties, most line guys will leave you alone. Medical is usually the last thing on an Infantry or Armor commander's mind. Now if you screw things up and are a total slack-ass you will have the spotlight shone brightly upon your section and could run into trouble.

The duties of a BDE Surgeon really are minimal. If you have tact and social skills and are a decent administrator you'll look like a rock star and command will generally give you a wide berth.

-61N

This is very true. Moonlighting is at the discretion of your Commander who being a line guy is highly likely to decline as he/she will be jealous you can make money outside the military Options are limited by specialty, geography, and many other arcane regulations surrounding moonlighting to make it that much less doable.

Can you imagine graduating from a fellowship and being rewarded with two years of profession paralysis so you become thoroughly incompetent and unemployable so the Army can have the warm fuzzy feeling that an O-4 is in a position that a PA could fill?
 
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One of my partners is one of 13 pediatric subspecialists being tasked for these BDE spots. The Army looks as all peds subs as one group (with one single MOS designator [dunno if that is the right terminology]) instead of within indivial subspecialties. Peds subs are "overmanned"-but not all of them are. This comes after he was deployed to do GMO monkey work 6 months after finishing fellowship. His skills, like the surgeons', are going to rot away, especially in our particular field. I have never understood why people say the Army doesn't have GMOs or looks at their system as superior.

Aaand in other news, to spread the manure around:

ALCON (Army AND AF)-

All DoD-funded CME TDY's that are sponsored by a Non Federal Entity(NFE) (like the AAP) are on hold. Specifically, the Army has placed a moratorium for all conferences at LEAST through 31 Dec 12. The AF will not approve any CME TDY's until further notice.

This is a directive from the DoD - all military branches are sorting out the process by which approval for funded attendance at these NFE sponsored conferences can be attained. Currently approval must be granted at the Secretary of the Army/AF/Navy level and may possibly take more than 90 days to route the approval package.

I will keep everyone abreast of all updates. However, do not expect to go on a military-funded CME TDY for the next several months until this is all sorted out. You may go on your own dime however.

From the dept head.

From AF land: the TL😀R version of a 20Sep letter from the SG-we need flight surgeons. 100 billets unfilled. 66% manning. Come help. We'll take you no matter what you do.

I sense another group of applicants for GME getting the flight surgeon calling (for anyone in the know: did they keep making people who didn't match PGY2 go FS after the first batch a few years ago or was that a single year with a threat for later years on the table).

Yeah, milmed's seeming great these days...
 
One of my partners is one of 13 pediatric subspecialists being tasked for these BDE spots. The Army looks as all peds subs as one group (with one single MOS designator [dunno if that is the right terminology]) instead of within indivial subspecialties. Peds subs are "overmanned"-but not all of them are. This comes after he was deployed to do GMO monkey work 6 months after finishing fellowship. His skills, like the surgeons', are going to rot away, especially in our particular field. I have never understood why people say the Army doesn't have GMOs or looks at their system as superior.

Aaand in other news, to spread the manure around:



From the dept head.

From AF land: the TL😀R version of a 20Sep letter from the SG-we need flight surgeons. 100 billets unfilled. 66% manning. Come help. We'll take you no matter what you do.

I sense another group of applicants for GME getting the flight surgeon calling (for anyone in the know: did they keep making people who didn't match PGY2 go FS after the first batch a few years ago or was that a single year with a threat for later years on the table).

Yeah, milmed's seeming great these days...

not only that, but many of peds subspecialists whose names were given just PCS'd-- and will have to PCS again (some from OCONUS) to fill the slots. the issue is all peds subs are listed at 60Q, regardless. so when it looks like there are 10 subspecialists, there may only be one of a particular specialty there.

the idea doesn't bother me (i understand needing MAJ's in those spots) as much as the lack of understanding when our consultant supposedly explained this to whoever is making the push. the other kicker is that the list that was given supposedly was semi rejected in some cases and they asked for other people who weren't on the list. complete insanity.

the funny thing is, i bet they could fill a lot of the slots voluntarily with FP's from the MEDDACs, lol. we had 2 guys who were begging to leave, one of which wanted to stay on with his unit he was a battalion surgeon with to become their new brigade surgeon. he was turned down.

this plus the sudden axe of travel funds and do they wonder why the CCC isn't filling? it's because people are planning on leaving, lol. give it 3-4 years and they are going to be wondering why they have such a lack of LTC's. this thing is going as you would expect-- 5 years ago they were short on GMO's, (CPT's) now they are short on BDE SG (MAJ's) and 5 years from now it will be the same story with people being forced to do DCCS. Only problem is even the most obligated person can normally get out by 12 years.

anyone else heard of the 15 year retirement thing they were kicking around? maybe they will transition to a bunch of GS and contract physicians-- maybe that's their goal.

--your friendly neighborhood temporarily protected from the BDE madness caveman
 
Anyone else see the inspiring letter from the head of the Medical Corps?

Bottom line -

1. The Army wants to draw down, but not doctors yet but since they want to boot the line guys based on PT scores and BMI you had better get your professional military education done and pass the PT test and weight standards or suffer.
2. No money for TDY - Go suck an egg.
3. The launching of the exciting new "every doctor is a leader" program for which he was looking for volunteers. The program when fully implemented will ensure than 90% of military physicians will think taking a kick in the balls is a good time, achieving the state of learned helplessness so essential to becoming a true AMEDD leader.
 
Wouldn't it be nice if all military docs spoke with their feet and left the first chance they could (i.e. after first ADSO)? Where would all the patients be seen? Fewer and fewer docs are seeing Tricare b/c of the horrendous reimbursement and this will only get worse with Obamacare cuts. Hopefully, things will eventually come to a head when the only docs that stay in are lifers (ROTC/Academy + USUHS/HPSP) and those that are institutionalized/incompetent. I only have < 1.5 years left and would still gladly pay $100,000+ to leave now. What a sad state of affairs Military Medicine has become.
 
I am a 4 yr GMO flight surgeon finishing off my last few months in the purgatory known as milmed and exiting to my dream civilian residency. 2 combat deployments, I've been entirely operational since exiting internship. I was even offered a BDE Surgeon slot-as a captain- but turned it down. I think it is idiotic for the AMEDD to task subspecialists etc. to fill BDE Surgeon slots. Actually, I think it is a stretch to have Primary Care types do it.

There is absolutely no reason to fill these slots with senior officers or specialists.

99% of the job is admin- which a monkey could do and which the Med-Ops Officer, if he is worth his salt, does.

Yeah, you have to go to command and staff once a week. Big deal, it lasts 45 minutes and your part lasts less than 3. Also nobody is listening.

In the Army, each BN has an organic PA and the BSB has a Doc and a PA. You don't need an internal medicine guru or a family med doc to oversee these guys. They don't see dependents. 98% of their patient visits are for routine sick call complaints tailor-made for mid-levels. The other 2% need to be referred to higher care, and that doesn't mean, referred to the BDE surgeon. The BDE Surgeon simply needs to have a firm and guiding hand in instructing his PA's to know their limits and to refer appropriately. Sure it might help to have a family med/internal med type around to troubleshoot the occasional strange EKG or lay a second set of eyes on a patient, but the fact is anyone operational doc worth his salt should have a very low threshold for referring patients to the hospital or sending them to the ER.

So let's think about why this doesn't make sense.

1. Clinically- No need for clinical skills at the BDE surgeon level. It's an admin job and any clinical skills will quickly atrophy. Also, PA's should be taught to avoid cowboy medicine and refer early and often when they are out of their depth.

2. Rank- This is an old canard. "It helps to have O4's on the BDE Staff. I've actually trotted that one out before, but thinking more about it, it's stupid. Who cares if you're an O3. In my experience, all at the BN level, you're "the Doc" and your positional authority gives you clout regardless of the rank on your chest. Good commanders aren't obsessed with the Doc's rank. Idiots in the S1, S4 and S6 shops might be but your interaction with them, thankfully, is almost nil.

3. It will only accelerate the exodus of experienced Physicians from the Army after they complete their ADSO's. I wonder if the Army even cares about this anymore?

Fill these slots with new Captains or preferably GMO's. Or, just leave them empty and have the senior BDE PA do the job. That's usually what ends up happening anyway because the Docs are either new to the operational side or completely check out when they realize what they're in for. PA's need the responsibility in order to make rank in the highly competitive Specialist corps.

I think I'll fire up an email to Nurse Horoho.


-61N
 
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I served as a BDE surgeon for two years as O-3 and I must say it was little intimidating to be surrounded by O-4 and above during those weekly command and staff meeting. Those meeting last anywhere from 1 to 3 hours. My briefs did matter during meetings as my BDE commander cared about medical readiness! I attended about 2-3 meetings per week. As BDE surgeon you are considered as a special staff officer for your BDE commander and you are there to give direct medical advice/medical readiness status to the commander so he can a make decision. I think line guys want at least O-4 or above to occupy this position so that you have authority and experience? to supervise PAs and be similiar in level/grade with other staff officers for the BDE commander. Rank is very important in the line side.

However if one does residency and fellowship in say Cardiology I really do not think he/she has any more experience/knowledge to do better job than an intern who wants to be BDE surgeon to serve the time before landing residency.

As for admin...I regularly saw patients in the clinic, do sick calls when PA go on leave and even worked as OIC of clinic when PA consultant could not send the PA over for 8 months. Basically you are responsible for every medical issues in the BDE.

Thus, BDE surgeon is not all admin either: 50% patient care, 50% admin. At least for me.
 
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I served as BDE surgeon for two years as O-3 and I must say it was little intimidating to be surrounded by O-4 and above during those weekly command and staff meeting and it does not last more than 2 hours. I attended about 2-3 meetings per week. As BDE surgeon you are considered as a special staff officer for your BDE commander and you are there to give medical advice/medical readiness status to the commander. I think line guys want at least O-4 or above to occupy this position so that you have authority and experience? to supervise PAs and be similiar in level/grade with other staff officers for the BDE commander. However if one does residency and fellowship in say Cardiology I really do not think he/she has any more experience to do better job than an intern who wants to be BDE surgeon to serve the time before landing residency.

As for admin...I saw patients in the clinic, do sick calls when PA go on leave and even worked as OIC of clinic when PA consultant could not send the PA over for 8 months.

BDE surgeon is not all admin: 50% patient care, 50% admin. At least for me.
 
Wouldn't it be nice if all military docs spoke with their feet and left the first chance they could (i.e. after first ADSO)? Where would all the patients be seen? Fewer and fewer docs are seeing Tricare b/c of the horrendous reimbursement and this will only get worse with Obamacare cuts. Hopefully, things will eventually come to a head when the only docs that stay in are lifers (ROTC/Academy + USUHS/HPSP) and those that are institutionalized/incompetent. I only have < 1.5 years left and would still gladly pay $100,000+ to leave now. What a sad state of affairs Military Medicine has become.

YOu have to join a <clears throat> "mafia protection group" to get good reimbursement from Tricare.

Whenever I left the military, I stayed in my community. Tricare wanted to offer me a contract that was 80% of their CMAC. I was told by my practice consultant that I would not make ends meet at that rate and a large multispecialty care group locally went under due to that. So I had to join a physicians health group, membership into a local physicians advocacy group. One simple membership, and suddenly I was offered 100% CMAC.
 
Wouldn't it be nice if all military docs spoke with their feet and left the first chance they could (i.e. after first ADSO)?

I read on SDN on this subforum some time back that it is already 90% that leave after their first ADSO is fulfilled. I don't know from where that number came.

If it's true, it can't get much higher.
 
OUCH! Thats rough man, I thought you were almost out. My condolences! Hopefully you'll be able to work out some moonlighting.

Thanks. I thought I was "almost out" too, but obviously not close enough. I am fortunate that I'm in a specialty that lends itself to moonlighting. I'm determined to maintain proficiency so that I won't have to give these clowns a single extra second beyond my initial ADSO, even if my skills do go wasted from 7AM to 5PM.
 
I read on SDN on this subforum some time back that it is already 90% that leave after their first ADSO is fulfilled. I don't know from where that number came.

If it's true, it can't get much higher.

I've heard that percentage coming my field's consultant, but my specialty tends to separate with greater reliability than many others. And that number was from several years ago, before the economy tanked. I would imagine the aggregate percentage is considerably lower.
 
One of my partners is one of 13 pediatric subspecialists being tasked for these BDE spots. The Army looks as all peds subs as one group (with one single MOS designator [dunno if that is the right terminology]) instead of within indivial subspecialties. Peds subs are "overmanned"-but not all of them are. This comes after he was deployed to do GMO monkey work 6 months after finishing fellowship. His skills, like the surgeons', are going to rot away, especially in our particular field. I have never understood why people say the Army doesn't have GMOs or looks at their system as superior.

Aaand in other news, to spread the manure around:



From the dept head.

From AF land: the TL😀R version of a 20Sep letter from the SG-we need flight surgeons. 100 billets unfilled. 66% manning. Come help. We'll take you no matter what you do.

I sense another group of applicants for GME getting the flight surgeon calling (for anyone in the know: did they keep making people who didn't match PGY2 go FS after the first batch a few years ago or was that a single year with a threat for later years on the table).

Yeah, milmed's seeming great these days...
Yep. Thirteen pediatricians, and I am one of the "lucky" 13. Just snatched from my specialty for this BS slot. Not only am I losing my subspecialty skills, but the impact to the family is just as huge. Excuse me for whining, but I just didn't see this coming as an LTC. .....Bitter.
 
Yep. Thirteen pediatricians, and I am one of the "lucky" 13. Just snatched from my specialty for this BS slot. Not only am I losing my subspecialty skills, but the impact to the family is just as huge. Excuse me for whining, but I just didn't see this coming as an LTC. .....Bitter.

Wait, is this hitting all services? I thought it was just Army.
 
Just army. However, looking back I now remember when I was in residency one of my attendings got tasked to be the Chief of Peds at some small base. Did I mention he was a Navy O6 full bird and a subspecialtist at a major medcen when he was tasked. It's funny how this is coming full circle for me. That should have been my warning not to get in too deep.
 
Yep. Thirteen pediatricians, and I am one of the "lucky" 13. Just snatched from my specialty for this BS slot. Not only am I losing my subspecialty skills, but the impact to the family is just as huge. Excuse me for whining, but I just didn't see this coming as an LTC. .....Bitter.

Whining fully excused. This sucks for y'all. I guess there is another sub in my dept. on the list as well.
 
If your MEB numbers are low and your readiness stats are high and you toss a z-pack at the BDE XO's viral cold every so often, they think you are the second coming of Hippocrates.

HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa.... Gold Jerry, gold.

My wife told the infantry regiment commander during her last deployment that she wouldn't prescribe him a Z-pack for his viral URI because it would do nothing for his viral URI, promote antibiotic resistance, and expose him to the risk of an adverse reaction for no conceivable medical benefit. She found out later that this commander had called the division surgeon to ask if my wife was competent to practice medicine.

Back to the topic at hand...

I feel for you guys. My wife and many of her colleagues are dealing with this now. I just talked to a colleague the other day who put some lamb's blood on the front door and is praying that the "angel of death" passes over. He's a Peds Heme/Onc, and while certain specialties may be able to keep their skills up by moonlighting, there will not be many opportunities for a peds heme/onc to practice his specialty in Leesville LA or Junction City KS.

It goes without saying that the "strength" of one's partcicular specialty plays a huge role. I never saw a cardiology fellowship go unfilled throughout my residency while Heme/Onc slots went unfilled a good portion of the time. Fast forward a couple of years and at my MEDCEN the cardiology department is being raided hard for these BDE SGN spots while only one unlucky heme/onc will feel the pain.
 
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Yep. Thirteen pediatricians, and I am one of the "lucky" 13. Just snatched from my specialty for this BS slot. Not only am I losing my subspecialty skills, but the impact to the family is just as huge. Excuse me for whining, but I just didn't see this coming as an LTC. .....Bitter.
Yep, my family was just hit by this also, my spouse in particular. Just PCS'd to my duty station with me, here for two weeks, then tasked to be a brigade surgeon as a pediatric subspecialist. Interesting that the Army would sacrifice the decade of training they put into someone by making them a paper pusher.
So, it seems that this is happening and we have little way of fighting it, anyone out there able to give an actual real life representation of how this job goes down? How much time in meetings, paperwork, how much time available to continue actual medical pursuits (research, moonlighting.....). Any thoughtful assistance would be great. Thanks.
 
Anybody know if our "esteemed" MC leaders are only tapping subspecialties that are "overstrength" for these brigade surgeon slots? I know my specialty is currently "understrength" and I have heard no email chatter from our consultant about tasking for these positions beginning in the summer of 2013.

I think the writing is on the wall if you want to retire as a MC officer. I think the days of pursuing a purely clinical career are over and everyone will eventually be "forced" into an operational billet (i.e. battalion/brigade/division surgeon, DCCS, etc) at some point in their career. Leave and leave as soon as you can if you actually value being a physician rather than an institutionalized committee-attending, APEQS machine.
 
Anybody know if our "esteemed" MC leaders are only tapping subspecialties that are "overstrength" for these brigade surgeon slots? I know my specialty is currently "understrength" and I have heard no email chatter from our consultant about tasking for these positions beginning in the summer of 2013.

I think the writing is on the wall if you want to retire as a MC officer. I think the days of pursuing a purely clinical career are over and everyone will eventually be "forced" into an operational billet (i.e. battalion/brigade/division surgeon, DCCS, etc) at some point in their career. Leave and leave as soon as you can if you actually value being a physician rather than an institutionalized committee-attending, APEQS machine.
 
This is the other side of the GMO coin. Don't want to make your future radiologists, etc, do operational stuff before residency, then the medical subs (with their primary care board certification slung around their necks) get to do these jobs. There just aren't enough FPs for the .mil to put it all on them (despite their best efforts to do so).
 
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