Brown vs Mount Sinai

[Onthefenceforeverything]

Hi everyone,

I made this account as a throw-away because I need some advice in my decision of which to rank #1.

Brown:
Pros:

• Good gut feeling at the interview day, seemed like everyone I met was happy to be there, lots of residents who become attendings.
• Early psychotherapy training that seems very thoughtful
• Have strong women's mental health
• Very organized interview day, kind staff, got along well with most residents and applicants

Cons:

• Don't have a lot in my interest in global mental health (one elective in Kenya)
• Less elective time than Sinai
• Providence seems cute, but also limiting in terms of food choices
• Patient diversity is questionable even though the hospital page somewhere says that Providence is a "minority majority" city.

Mt. Sinai
Pros:

• Incredible idea of residents forming their own path which would work great with my creativity and desired to combine multiple things in psych
• Huge amount of support for global mental health
• NYC is full of opportunity
• Diversity of patients

Cons:

• Didn't have a very smooth interview day here, one attending said that the culture is "not nurturing" and the PD said that you have to be "self-driven" and "ask for what you want". While I understand where they are coming from, I'm not sure if this all translates to an un-supportive environment.
• NYC is not a city my partner wants to live in because it's overwhelming, dirty(-er than the city we live in), expensive. Would have to get rid of a lot of things including my car.
• Didn't mesh as much with the residents so don't have a sense of who they are, seems like a bigger program that I might get lost in the mix in.
• Psychotherapy is less intentional in that it is divided between different sites (6 months at the VA, different clinics here and there), so I don't think you would see the same patient for all three years

My attending mentioned that based on reputation the two programs are basically identical, so it is more of a decision about where I want to be and if I want to be at a more neuroscience (Sinai) or more psychodynamics (Brown) place. It feels like a more complex decision than that and I was hoping others might be able to chime in about their thoughts about the two programs and any guidance.

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[Onthefenceforeverything]

Forgot to mention, THANK YOU to anyone who has ideas or thoughts about this decision. 🙂

 

[4malit]

Hey there! You should also post in the Rank Order thread for more responses: forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/official-2019-rank-order-lists.1357505/

I'm not too familiar with Mt. Sinai so I'll pass on that. For Brown I'll just address two things. First, I totally get that at first glance the Providence food scene doesn't seem up to NYC level, but I gotta say there's a lot of awesome restaurants in the city. And of course, they don't have the crazy new york prices. If you're a visual person, this site gives a good preview: spoonuniversity.com/lifestyle/providence-ri-restaurants-you-must-try (not sure when that was last updated...) Second, Brown draws their patients from the entire state of RI and there's a particularly strong immigrant population in RI. I think Rhode Island Hospital sees more patient diversity than Butler Hospital does, and you can choose to do your PGY3 at RIH so you can work with the population you're interested in. And yeah, Brown didn't seem too heavy/interested in global mental health either, so if that's a big interest of yours, it seems like something you have to seek out yourself there. Just my two cents!

 

[justfolks]

Just a patient, but even that your pros/cons take into account "fit" and supportiveness, if you haven't already you might want to do some Google searches about things like resident morale, physician mental health, etc. in connection with both places, that might give you an outside view of what it's like that could supplement your data points.

 

[Monocles]

Brown a thousand times over.

I have friends who have trained at Brown and Sinai. People from Brown have universally loved the program and were extremely happy during their adult psych experience. Sinai was much more of a mixed bag... Anecdotally with an n=1 one of my good friends is there and absolutely miserable.

 

[SmallBird]

Hi everyone,

I made this account as a throw-away because I need some advice in my decision of which to rank #1.

Brown:
Pros:

• Good gut feeling at the interview day, seemed like everyone I met was happy to be there, lots of residents who become attendings.
• Early psychotherapy training that seems very thoughtful
• Have strong women's mental health
• Very organized interview day, kind staff, got along well with most residents and applicants

Cons:

• Don't have a lot in my interest in global mental health (one elective in Kenya)
• Less elective time than Sinai
• Providence seems cute, but also limiting in terms of food choices
• Patient diversity is questionable even though the hospital page somewhere says that Providence is a "minority majority" city.

Mt. Sinai
Pros:

• Incredible idea of residents forming their own path which would work great with my creativity and desired to combine multiple things in psych
• Huge amount of support for global mental health
• NYC is full of opportunity
• Diversity of patients

Cons:

• Didn't have a very smooth interview day here, one attending said that the culture is "not nurturing" and the PD said that you have to be "self-driven" and "ask for what you want". While I understand where they are coming from, I'm not sure if this all translates to an un-supportive environment.
• NYC is overwhelming, dirty, expensive. Would have to get rid of a lot of things including my beloved car.
• Didn't enjoy the residents as much, seems like a bigger program that I might get lost in the mix in.
• Psychotherapy is less intentional in that it is divided between different sites (6 months at the VA, different clinics here and there), so I don't think you would see the same patient for all three years

My attending mentioned that based on reputation the two programs are basically identical, so it is more of a decision about where I want to be and if I want to be at a more neuroscience (Sinai) or more psychodynamics (Brown) place. It feels like a more complex decision than that and I was hoping others might be able to chime in about their thoughts about the two programs and any guidance.

Providence has its downsides for sure and is definitely not New York but it has great food choices.

 

[scarlett14]

Brown a thousand times over.

I have friends who have trained at Brown and Sinai. People from Brown have universally loved the program and were extremely happy during their adult psych experience. Sinai was much more of a mixed bag... Anecdotally with an n=1 one of my good friends is there and absolutely miserable.

I've heard from a few people that they know some residents at Sinai that aren't really that happy but they haven't given many details. Was wondering if your friend gave any reasons for not liking their experience there? (I'm currently trying to decide between Sinai and another program for my #1 so any info would be really helpful!)

 

[dl2dp2]

This largely depends on where you want to end up AFTER residency, IMHO. Very few Brown residents move to Manhattan after training for a variety of reasons. If in the long run you want to establish a career in the tri-state area, Sinai is better. From purely a lifestyle perspective, Brown is likely better.

 

[Dharma]

If you already have that vibe about NYC, not sure living there will be your thing. It's not a place that will necessarily grow on you either. As someone who felt love at first sight (and smell) and continued to fall for the place over the years, "overwhelming" and "dirty" would not even come to mind (although I can see where you coming from and agree with "expensive").

You may already have your answer...

 

[lyla]

When you actually practice psychiatry ... you’ll realize psychodynamic stuff is far more reliably applicable to clinical care as opposed to nebulous neuroscience type stuff.

 

[Onthefenceforeverything]

Hey there! You should also post in the Rank Order thread for more responses: forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/official-2019-rank-order-lists.1357505/

I'm not too familiar with Mt. Sinai so I'll pass on that. For Brown I'll just address two things. First, I totally get that at first glance the Providence food scene doesn't seem up to NYC level, but I gotta say there's a lot of awesome restaurants in the city. And of course, they don't have the crazy new york prices. If you're a visual person, this site gives a good preview: spoonuniversity.com/lifestyle/providence-ri-restaurants-you-must-try (not sure when that was last updated...) Second, Brown draws their patients from the entire state of RI and there's a particularly strong immigrant population in RI. I think Rhode Island Hospital sees more patient diversity than Butler Hospital does, and you can choose to do your PGY3 at RIH so you can work with the population you're interested in. And yeah, Brown didn't seem too heavy/interested in global mental health either, so if that's a big interest of yours, it seems like something you have to seek out yourself there. Just my two cents!

Thank you for your insight into the food scene and the patient diversity issue! I'm just not sure how much weight to put on Sinai having what I want already vs "seeking it out" at Brown which seems doable with the flexible electives and great PD.

 

[Onthefenceforeverything]

Just a patient, but even that your pros/cons take into account "fit" and supportiveness, if you haven't already you might want to do some Google searches about things like resident morale, physician mental health, etc. in connection with both places, that might give you an outside view of what it's like that could supplement your data points.

Thank you for that idea! Will have to see which has a better culture of supporting physician wellness and discussing issues openly in mental health.

 

[Onthefenceforeverything]

Brown a thousand times over.

I have friends who have trained at Brown and Sinai. People from Brown have universally loved the program and were extremely happy during their adult psych experience. Sinai was much more of a mixed bag... Anecdotally with an n=1 one of my good friends is there and absolutely miserable.

Thanks for the input! I've heard similar things about Sinai being not ideal for some people, would you be comfortable sharing more about your friends situation here or via DM?

 

[Onthefenceforeverything]

This largely depends on where you want to end up AFTER residency, IMHO. Very few Brown residents move to Manhattan after training for a variety of reasons. If in the long run you want to establish a career in the tri-state area, Sinai is better. From purely a lifestyle perspective, Brown is likely better.

That's actually a really good point. I'm aiming to live in a smaller than NYC, but still large city after finishing so it would probably be fine either way. And if that city ends up being Boston, the move would not be far 🙂. Thanks for the help!

 

[Onthefenceforeverything]

If you already have that vibe about NYC, not sure living there will be your thing. It's not a place that will necessarily grow on you either. As someone who felt love at first sight (and smell) and continued to fall for the place over the years, "overwhelming" and "dirty" would not even come to mind (although I can see where you coming from and agree with "expensive").

You may already have your answer...

Yeah, I sorta wrote things down very quickly without explanation. It's my partner who doesn't like NYC that much while I love the food scene, all the events, and areas of the city to explore! But you're right that it might not be for me (since my partner is clear about his distaste) and I should strongly consider that. Thanks for the input!

 

[Onthefenceforeverything]

When you actually practice psychiatry ... you’ll realize psychodynamic stuff is far more reliably applicable to clinical care as opposed to nebulous neuroscience type stuff.

Interesting insight! So do you mean that to say that it's important to gain strong psychodynamic training in residency?

 

[Monocles]

Thanks for the input! I've heard similar things about Sinai being not ideal for some people, would you be comfortable sharing more about your friends situation here or via DM?

I've heard from a few people that they know some residents at Sinai that aren't really that happy but they haven't given many details. Was wondering if your friend gave any reasons for not liking their experience there? (I'm currently trying to decide between Sinai and another program for my #1 so any info would be really helpful!)

Complete hearsay -- she didn't go into particular details, but the work hours are very rough, culture can be a bit intense, she's had some brusque interactions with attendings, difficult interactions with ancillary staff, etc

 

[justfolks]

Thank you for that idea! Will have to see which has a better culture of supporting physician wellness and discussing issues openly in mental health.

Maybe try a Google search for "Mt Sinai resident suicide"

 

[FFH]

I don't have direct experience with sinai, but a good friend who went there for med school did not recommend the program.

 

[RWQ142]

Hi, current Sinai resident. Few comments. Think that it's important to candidly weigh the pros and cons of training in New York versus somewhere a little more low key. In terms of patients, hard to imagine there's anywhere else that could compete in terms of sheer variety. That having been said, the hospitals here are big, busy places, with more than a few battle hardened staff members, and I certainly know people from all of the well known New York psych residencies who've found the work to be taxing. Are there Sinai-specific pluses and minuses worth considering? Sure, although can only speak to the experience under the current program leadership. Not having city, state, or university funds to fall back on like the other large programs around town, the department is bound by Sinai's focus on the bottom line, and so the compensation to workload ratio has sometimes made it hard to bring in the kind of attendings we'd like. This is also a place where residents use the provided flexibility to pursue very different interests, so it wouldn't be ideal for someone wanting a common sense of mission (psychodynamic, public, etc). Greatest strength? That's an easy one: awesome co-residents. You should definitely feel free to reach out to any who you met on interview day, if you're still thinking things through.

 

[Amygdarya]

I'm sorry MtSinai got so much flack here recently. It is not by any means a bad program, and is actually one of the happier ones in NYC.
However, unless you're hell bent on being in NYC, I would choose Brown in a wink.

I went to med school in NYC (and know plenty of residents at top NYC programs including MtSinai) and was very much on the fence about leaving the city as I was making my rank. Boy, am I happy I'm in residency somewhere else now.
Look, residency is going to be hard at least at some point no matter where you go. There's no need to make things more difficult for yourself by having to deal with the administrative mess that most NYC hospitals are (specifically regarding MtSinai psychiatry, I know that they've lost a number of good faculty to other hospital precisely because of administrative disorganization due to fast expansion - I spoke to some of these faculty), stresses of living in the city, and the very unsupportive supportive staff in NYC. And let me tell you, good staff will make a whole lot of difference for you as a resident.

I interviewed at both MtSinai and Brown. While Sinai residents were some of the happier ones in NYC, Brown residents were happy as a clam, enjoyed a great work-life balance in a much more affordable city and could make good money moonlighting in their spare time. (I know that Sinai residents moonlight, too, but it's more of a necessity to keep up with the cost of living in NYC and comes on top of an already heavy workload.) Brown has a great reputation in psychiatry and, should you decide you want to move to a bigger city and more of a pressure cooker working situation after residency, Brown psychiatry has good connections with MGH where quite a few of their residency graduates end up.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

The education vice chair at Brigham & Women's is a former Brown PD (and great guy), fwiw.

... Brown has a great reputation in psychiatry and, should you decide you want to move to a bigger city and more of a pressure cooker working situation after residency, Brown psychiatry has good connections with MGH where quite a few of their residency graduates end up.

 

[kewlboy88]

I'm sorry MtSinai got so much flack here recently. It is not by any means a bad program, and is actually one of the happier ones in NYC.
However, unless you're hell bent on being in NYC, I would choose Brown in a wink.

I went to med school in NYC (and know plenty of residents at top NYC programs including MtSinai) and was very much on the fence about leaving the city as I was making my rank. Boy, am I happy I'm in residency somewhere else now.
Look, residency is going to be hard at least at some point no matter where you go. There's no need to make things more difficult for yourself by having to deal with the administrative mess that most NYC hospitals are (specifically regarding MtSinai psychiatry, I know that they've lost a number of good faculty to other hospital precisely because of administrative disorganization due to fast expansion - I spoke to some of these faculty), stresses of living in the city, and the very unsupportive supportive staff in NYC. And let me tell you, good staff will make a whole lot of difference for you as a resident.

I interviewed at both MtSinai and Brown. While Sinai residents were some of the happier ones in NYC, Brown residents were happy as a clam, enjoyed a great work-life balance in a much more affordable city and could make good money moonlighting in their spare time. (I know that Sinai residents moonlight, too, but it's more of a necessity to keep up with the cost of living in NYC and comes on top of an already heavy workload.) Brown has a great reputation in psychiatry and, should you decide you want to move to a bigger city and more of a pressure cooker working situation after residency, Brown psychiatry has good connections with MGH where quite a few of their residency graduates end up.

Thank you so much for this. While you talk about Mt. Sinai, I'm going to go out on a limb and use what you say for other programs in NYC (e.g. cornell) and assume a lot of what you said has some value (e.g. NYC hospitals are messy, etc)