bsmd vs pre med

[mammabear2004]

My D, senior in HS, needs help deciding on which path to take regarding the best way to achieve her goal in life od becoming a physician.

BSMD: she was accepted into NJIT/NJMS, 7 yr program

Pre med UG: accepted at Rice (Houston is our hometown), Northwestern, WashU and Vanderbilt. At Vanderbuilt she got merit scholarship - full tuition plus stipend for the 4 years

What path she should take and what school will be the best knowing that she has no doubts that she wants to be a physician (neuroscience major)? Money won't be an obstacle but would like to avoid gap years to get into medical school, if all possible. Thank you very much for helping us out.
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[homunculusus]

take the BSMD. It's not even a question. She's obviously very smart but having a guaranteed MD (and at 7 years total) is a dream for 99% of premeds. Is there a GPA/MCAT requirement for the program?3.5 GPA and no MCAT requirement makes it a no brainer
If it was BSDO vs a prestigious undergrad like Vanderbuilt and the others you mentioned then the latter, but a BSMD ANYWHERE is priceless

 

[mammabear2004]

take the BSMD. It's not even a question. She's obviously very smart but having a guaranteed MD (and at 7 years total) is a dream for 99% of premeds. Is there a GPA/MCAT requirement for the program?
If it was BSDO vs a prestigious undergrad like Vanderbuilt and the others you mentioned then the latter, but a BSMD ANYWHERE is priceless

thank you for taking the time to answer my question.

 

[homunculusus]

thank you for taking the time to answer my question.

I just checked and the program requires 3.5 GPA and no MCAT requirement which makes it a no brainer

 

[mammabear2004]

take the BSMD. It's not even a question. She's obviously very smart but having a guaranteed MD (and at 7 years total) is a dream for 99% of premeds. Is there a GPA/MCAT requirement for the program?3.5 GPA and no MCAT requirement makes it a no brainer
If it was BSDO vs a prestigious undergrad like Vanderbuilt and the others you mentioned then the latter, but a BSMD ANYWHERE is priceless

Thank you so much for the reply. Yes, there is a GPA of 3.5 to maintain and MCAT to take but no set value. It also seems that although Rutgers is not at the top of the USNews best medical schools in the US list, it has a reputable program. Her only doubt is if she will be accepting the BSMD at Rutgers out of fear of not getting in any other medical school. Maybe Northwestern or Rice (80% with no gap yr) would open the opportunity to better ranked medical schools than Rutgers? She has only 2 wks to decide before May 1 and there is still some doubts

 

[lumya]

I would just like to offer a different perspective for her to consider. I go to a school with a linkage BS/MD program and it's incredibly apparent based on maturity who is a linkage student as opposed to a tradition student and non-traditional students. Some I've seen struggling with aspects of professionalism when interacting with patients and physicians. Many I've talked to mention how stressed they were trying to get everything done.

If your daughter has any other interests she would like to explore and take optional classes or be part of extracurriculars, a traditional 4-year college would give her the latitude. She's obviously maintained good grades in high school, college will be harder, but it's not impossible. It would also give her the option of selecting a school for medical school. Additionally, while not taking the MCAT is a plus, taking STEP as your first long-standardized test is daunting to some.

I also took many gap years and I would say it has definitely helped me a lot in my classes and working with physicians in clinic. Most of my classmates who have the extra work/research/volunteer experience have great skills and backgrounds that they bring to the class as well.

 

[mammabear2004]

I would just like to offer a different perspective for her to consider. I go to a school with a linkage BS/MD program and it's incredibly apparent based on maturity who is a linkage student as opposed to a tradition student and non-traditional students. Some I've seen struggling with aspects of professionalism when interacting with patients and physicians. Many I've talked to mention how stressed they were trying to get everything done.

If your daughter has any other interests she would like to explore and take optional classes or be part of extracurriculars, a traditional 4-year college would give her the latitude. She's obviously maintained good grades in high school, college will be harder, but it's not impossible. It would also give her the option of selecting a school for medical school. Additionally, while not taking the MCAT is a plus, taking STEP as your first long-standardized test is daunting to some.

I also took many gap years and I would say it has definitely helped me a lot in my classes and working with physicians in clinic. Most of my classmates who have the extra work/research/volunteer experience have great skills and backgrounds that they bring to the class as well.

thank you!

 

[peacepro]

Is the BSMD program a complete guarantee to get into med school? If so, take the program. You can never predict how competitive med school admissions will be in four years. If she knows(which is hard to know at the high school level) that she wants to go into a competitive speciality, than that should be taken into consideration. But overall, Rutgers though not highly ranked, it is still a very respected and established program!

 

[typhoon1]

Im an NJ resident, so i might have some bias. But take njit/njms. Njms is really good. Their match lists are phenomenal, and it's only a state school. They have a bunch of home programs in competitive specialities like ENT, Plastics, etc. They had 4 plastics matches this year and 5 ENT. I'm mentioning plastics and ent because these are considered two of the most competitive specialties to match into. You won't be held back at all by going into NJMS.

Also take rankings with a grain of salt. Even though NJMS is ranked 70, Match lists imo are a much better indicator of the strength of a medical school.

 

[4pf]

Considering her success so far, I would personally bet on her to continue working hard and gaining admission to medical schools above the tier of NJMS. Personally, I would take the money at Vandy and keep my options open for med school

 

[sousa7]

Id go with the Merit scholarship and stipend at Vandy

 

[chilly_md]

Threads merged.

 

[mammabear2004]

Considering her success so far, I would personally bet on her to continue working hard and gaining admission to medical schools above the tier of NJMS. Personally, I would take the money at Vandy and keep my options open for med school

thank you! i guess there is no right or wrong answer but i dont want my 17 yr old daughter to act out of fear and take the NJMS path and not try to go for a better medical school in the future.

 

[mammabear2004]

Im an NJ resident, so i might have some bias. But take njit/njms. Njms is really good. Their match lists are phenomenal, and it's only a state school. They have a bunch of home programs in competitive specialities like ENT, Plastics, etc. They had 4 plastics matches this year and 5 ENT. I'm mentioning plastics and ent because these are considered two of the most competitive specialties to match into. You won't be held back at all by going into NJMS.

Also take rankings with a grain of salt. Even though NJMS is ranked 70, Match lists imo are a much better indicator of the strength of a medical school.

thank you for taking the time to answer.

 

[account]

My brother had to make a similar decision between the TCNJ/NJMS combined program and a top ranked undergrad. Ultimately he decided to attend the top ranked undergrad. Even though he was dead set on being a doctor in high school, that changed in college (and not due to grades.) He found that he liked research considerably more and is now enrolled in a top PhD program.

My point is there is a tendency in high school to group those who are good at science into the medicine route. I think this is because most everyone is exposed to professional science careers by going to the doctor, but you are not exposed to say an astrophysicist or an organic chemist on the same regular basis. If your daughter has seen into these other careers and decided that medicine is still for them, I would suggest the combined route as that really is a stellar opportunity. If there is any fence leaning on whether she wants to be a doctor, go to the better University and explore all the career options.

 

[magic2026]

I considered a BS/MD program, and here I am four years later. Went to an undergrad I preferred that did not provide the BS/MD over the school that did, and I have 0 regrets. Of course, I had to take the MCAT, but so many others will have to as well. I loved being able to explore my interests outside of medicine, and I wouldn't change that. I was dead set on medicine in high school, too. If she knows that program is where she wants to end up for medical school, of course go. However, if she hasn't considered everywhere else, I would go to undergrad then apply to medical school. Since she knows she wants to do medicine, she can start connecting with the pre-health advisor and prepare to have a strong app so she will have options. Also, you can't beat minimizing debt in undergrad.

 

[typhoon1]

You can literally explore your interests way more in a bs/md program because a)no need to waste 3-4 months studying for the mcat and b) you need a 3.5 gpa which is lower than the gpa needed for normal application. You're literally stress-free for 3 years in a 7 year bs/md and can do anything u want. Also I'm assuming since they got into a bs/md they have a bunch of AP/IB credits, which they can skip the gen eds with. The argument that taking the normal 4 year undergrad is low stress or easier makes no sense since you're always going to have the stress of the mcat and med school admissions in the back of your mind.

 

[bonedoc5576]

I am firmly of the opinion that the far better option would be Vanderbilt tuition-free. The only thing getting in the way of your daughter becoming a doctor would be lack of motivation, in which case medicine would be the wrong choice. However, if she has the motivation, she will likely have far better options through the traditional path. Likewise her options will be far better if she changes her mind about a career in medicine.

 

[KnightDoc]

You can literally explore your interests way more in a bs/md program because a)no need to waste 3-4 months studying for the mcat and b) you need a 3.5 gpa which is lower than the gpa needed for normal application. You're literally stress-free for 3 years in a 7 year bs/md and can do anything u want. Also I'm assuming since they got into a bs/md they have a bunch of AP/IB credits, which they can skip the gen eds with. The argument that taking the normal 4 year undergrad is low stress or easier makes no sense since you're always going to have the stress of the mcat and med school admissions in the back of your mind.

You are correct, but anyone looking for easy or low stress would be in the wrong place in med school. BS/MD programs are designed to lure high stat HS students to schools they would never otherwise consider.

There is a reason no T20 med school offers one. It's a fine option if you are risk averse and want a guarantee, but nothing in life is free (other than, apparently, a bachelors degree at Vanderbilt ).

The person who was "accepted at Rice (Houston is our hometown), Northwestern, WashU and Vanderbilt. At Vanderbuilt she got merit scholarship - full tuition plus stipend for the 4 years" is HIGHLY HIGHLY HIGHLY unlikely to end up enrolled at NJMS 4 or 5 years later if they take the normal route.

If you want to save the year (or 2 or 3 with gap years) and don't care about tossing away a shot at a T5, T10 or T20 med school for a guarantee at a T70, the choice is easy. If not, then not so much, especially with Vandy being FREE. I think it's crazy to pay for NJIT when Vandy is free, but YMMV.

 

[eigen]

I'd say over 50% of the students I work with who are dead set on medical school end up going in a different direction, and not due to lack of competitiveness, but changes in interest.

The downside of the BS/MD program is that the BS program (in this case) is one with worse connections and fewer (potential) options outside of medicine. Finances also matter. A full ride to a school like Vanderbilt will provide far more options outside of medicine if your daughter decides her interests change (and at 17, that's a pretty good chance), and will still have the resources to prepare her well for a career in medicine if she still wants to pursue it.

 

[homunculusus]

You are correct, but anyone looking for easy or low stress would be in the wrong place in med school. BS/MD programs are designed to lure high stat HS students to schools they would never otherwise consider.

There is a reason no T20 med school offers one. It's a fine option if you are risk averse and want a guarantee, but nothing in life is free (other than, apparently, a bachelors degree at Vanderbilt ).

The person who was "accepted at Rice (Houston is our hometown), Northwestern, WashU and Vanderbilt. At Vanderbuilt she got merit scholarship - full tuition plus stipend for the 4 years" is HIGHLY HIGHLY HIGHLY unlikely to end up enrolled at NJMS 4 or 5 years later if they take the normal route.

If you want to save the year (or 2 or 3 with gap years) and don't care about tossing away a shot at a T5, T10 or T20 med school for a guarantee at a T70, the choice is easy. If not, then not so much, especially with Vandy being FREE. I think it's crazy to pay for NJIT when Vandy is free, but YMMV.

I'd say over 50% of the students I work with who are dead set on medical school end up going in a different direction, and not due to lack of competitiveness, but changes in interest.

The downside of the BS/MD program is that the BS program (in this case) is one with worse connections and fewer (potential) options outside of medicine. Finances also matter. A full ride to a school like Vanderbilt will provide far more options outside of medicine if your daughter decides her interests change (and at 17, that's a pretty good chance), and will still have the resources to prepare her well for a career in medicine if she still wants to pursue it.

You both make great points. I myself recommended taking the BS/MD but the more I think about it I realize that it's not as black and white as I made it seem. I'm a below average student in terms of work ethic and intelligence, and I had to fight like hell to barely scrape into my MD school. So my experiences led me to believe that a guarantee is "better" even if there is a chance for a "better" school. This is a very personal choice and I assume each commentator has their own reasons for the side they choose.

I am far removed from undergrad (non prestigious) but I do remember many smart individuals who easily acquired multiple acceptances to great schools (and with scholarships!). Most of them had great high school stats (something I did not have). I can see your reasoning that someone smart and motivated could get into lots of great med schools (with scholarships!) if they go to Vandy for undergrad - and possibly graduating med school with <$100k total debt. I also remember many people with a 4.0 and some even in our partner 3+4 program choose to go into a completely different career.

 

[mammabear2004]

You are correct, but anyone looking for easy or low stress would be in the wrong place in med school. BS/MD programs are designed to lure high stat HS students to schools they would never otherwise consider.

There is a reason no T20 med school offers one. It's a fine option if you are risk averse and want a guarantee, but nothing in life is free (other than, apparently, a bachelors degree at Vanderbilt ).

The person who was "accepted at Rice (Houston is our hometown), Northwestern, WashU and Vanderbilt. At Vanderbuilt she got merit scholarship - full tuition plus stipend for the 4 years" is HIGHLY HIGHLY HIGHLY unlikely to end up enrolled at NJMS 4 or 5 years later if they take the normal route.

If you want to save the year (or 2 or 3 with gap years) and don't care about tossing away a shot at a T5, T10 or T20 med school for a guarantee at a T70, the choice is easy. If not, then not so much, especially with Vandy being FREE. I think it's crazy to pay for NJIT when Vandy is free, but YMMV.

first of all, thank you. the decision is not easy and by the way NJIT's COA is very minimal in her case as the school is also paying for part of her room and board on top of entire tuition. I guess the real questions are: 1) how really important it is medical school ranking in securing a good residency (D doesn't know yet about what specialty to pursue except that she is very interested in neuroscience). 2)She has reached out to some current NJIT BSMD students and they say that the level of stress is very manageable and although it is an accelerated UG program (3yrs) they do have a chance to have electives they enjoy as well. We decided as a family to hop on a plane and go visit both schools (NJIT, NJMS) before the May 1st deadline. Thank you everyone for your sincere opinion.

 

[anesussy]

I also took many gap years and I would say it has definitely helped me a lot in my classes and working with physicians in clinic.

A lot of this is the respect that residents/attendings give to students who appear older, which they wrongly withhold from the others.

 

[lumya]

A lot of this is the respect that residents/attendings give to students who appear older, which they wrongly withhold from the others.

Respect is a two way street.

Also a 25-year-old doesn't look that much older than a 21-year-old. At least not to a 55-year-old attending.

 

[anesussy]

Respect is a two way street.

Also a 25-year-old doesn't look that much older than a 21-year-old. At least not to a 55-year-old attending.

That's certainly your experience, isn't it?

 

[lumya]

first of all, thank you. the decision is not easy and by the way NJIT's COA is very minimal in her case as the school is also paying for part of her room and board on top of entire tuition. I guess the real questions are: 1) how really important it is medical school ranking in securing a good residency (D doesn't know yet about what specialty to pursue except that she is very interested in neuroscience). 2)She has reached out to some current NJIT BSMD students and they say that the level of stress is very manageable and although it is an accelerated UG program (3yrs) they do have a chance to have electives they enjoy as well. We decided as a family to hop on a plane and go visit both schools (NJIT, NJMS) before the May 1st deadline. Thank you everyone for your sincere opinion.

The answer to your question is kind of complex. If you look at schools ranked at the top of the USNWR ranking, a lot of students from those schools go into competitive specialties such as neurosurgery, plastic surgery, and dermatology. But there are students who go to unranked schools who get into those fields as well. A lot of this is likely due to connections and resources available. There might be more physicians in those fields to do research with and shadow if your medical school is associated with a large academic medical center like WashU or Harvard is or if your school’s alumni panel include the president of that specialty’s association. But that doesn’t prohibit other students, especially those who are interested and motivated to do so, from doing the work to seek these experiences.

I hope you and your family enjoy your visit and learn more about the school. Your daughter will be there for awhile if she chooses to go, so it’ll be up to her if that’s a place she wants to live for the next 7 years. A BS/MD is a great option for those who are certain, but as someone who took a non-traditional path, there is a lot of value in a 4-year colleges and gap years as well.

 

[pazzer2]

Several points worth considering:

One less year of tuition, one additional year of earnings, and lower COA can add up. I'm estimating this is about $400-500K. Putting this into an investment vehicle earning compounded interest of 7% over a 30 year time frame will be about $4M USD. Thats a decent chunk of cash.

Even if she were to theoretically go to a more prestigious undergrad, this doesn't necessarily equate with getting into a more prestigious medical school. I'd estimate that half of the incoming class at NJMS is from ivy+ or T20 colleges. For arguments sake lets say your D goes to Vanderbilt and does well. This doesn't guarantee that she will be able to get into a T10 med school. It might make it slightly easier, but she'll really have to do something amazing, especially if she is ORM. But for T10 status you're looking at GPA > 3.8 and MCAT > 520 and amazing ECs with a compelling story. Its not that easy to do, especially in a 4 year time frame. Thats why so many people do 1-2 gap years. Adding the extra time for gap years brings the investment argument above closer to $6.5M in lost opportunity cost.

Even if she were to do this and gain acceptance at a T10 medical school, this doesn't guarantee a residency of her choice. She'll still have to get good grades and do well on her rotations. There are examples of students from Harvard Med School this past year who failed to match. The NRMP has been getting progressively harder. NJMS does pretty darn good in the match. Look for yourself: Rutgers New Jersey Medical School

 

[KnightDoc]

Several points worth considering:

One less year of tuition, one additional year of earnings, and lower COA can add up. I'm estimating this is about $400-500K. Putting this into an investment vehicle earning compounded interest of 7% over a 30 year time frame will be about $4M USD. Thats a decent chunk of cash.

Even if she were to theoretically go to a more prestigious undergrad, this doesn't necessarily equate with getting into a more prestigious medical school. I'd estimate that half of the incoming class at NJMS is from ivy+ or T20 colleges. For arguments sake lets say your D goes to Vanderbilt and does well. This doesn't guarantee that she will be able to get into a T10 med school. It might make it slightly easier, but she'll really have to do something amazing, especially if she is ORM. But for T10 status you're looking at GPA > 3.8 and MCAT > 520 and amazing ECs with a compelling story. Its not that easy to do, especially in a 4 year time frame. Thats why so many people do 1-2 gap years. Adding the extra time for gap years brings the investment argument above closer to $6.5M in lost opportunity cost.

Even if she were to do this and gain acceptance at a T10 medical school, this doesn't guarantee a residency of her choice. She'll still have to get good grades and do well on her rotations. There are examples of students from Harvard Med School this past year who failed to match. The NRMP has been getting progressively harder. NJMS does pretty darn good in the match. Look for yourself: Rutgers New Jersey Medical School

?????

Since you are breaking it down into dollars and cents, and coming up with a $4M-$6.5M opportunity cost based on one less year of tuition and an extra year or more of earnings, compounded over 30 years at a rate that is far from guaranteed, how are you accounting for the 4 years of zero tuition or other costs at Vanderbilt, plus the elimination of the possibility of any med school scholarship money in the future? Or the enhanced potential to match into a higher paying specialty coming from a school that has an even more impressive match list than NJMS' "darn good" one?

I could easily perform the same analysis as you and manipulate the numbers to show an even greater than $6.5M opportunity cost to taking the guarantee.

It really is not about dollars and cents, but, if you want to go there, the more prudent path would be to take the FREE T20 UG, and let the future take care of itself. If anyone is a prime candidate to get into a T10 med school, ORM or not, it's the person who scored the all expenses paid 4 year trip to Nashville coming out of HS.

 

[Rez_nov]

Doesn’t Northwestern offer a BS/MD? I thought they were T20.

To add on, Rice-Baylor has a BS/MD but it isn't accelerated just guaranteed admission. I think Brown has something like that too.

 

[mammabear2004]

Several points worth considering:

One less year of tuition, one additional year of earnings, and lower COA can add up. I'm estimating this is about $400-500K. Putting this into an investment vehicle earning compounded interest of 7% over a 30 year time frame will be about $4M USD. Thats a decent chunk of cash.

Even if she were to theoretically go to a more prestigious undergrad, this doesn't necessarily equate with getting into a more prestigious medical school. I'd estimate that half of the incoming class at NJMS is from ivy+ or T20 colleges. For arguments sake lets say your D goes to Vanderbilt and does well. This doesn't guarantee that she will be able to get into a T10 med school. It might make it slightly easier, but she'll really have to do something amazing, especially if she is ORM. But for T10 status you're looking at GPA > 3.8 and MCAT > 520 and amazing ECs with a compelling story. Its not that easy to do, especially in a 4 year time frame. Thats why so many people do 1-2 gap years. Adding the extra time for gap years brings the investment argument above closer to $6.5M in lost opportunity cost.

Even if she were to do this and gain acceptance at a T10 medical school, this doesn't guarantee a residency of her choice. She'll still have to get good grades and do well on her rotations. There are examples of students from Harvard Med School this past year who failed to match. The NRMP has been getting progressively harder. NJMS does pretty darn good in the match. Look for yourself: Rutgers New Jersey Medical School

thank you so very much. i appreciate your opinion. she is not ORM or URM and parents not in the medical field. also not a resident of NJ therefore, would have to pay out-of-state full tuition to Rutgers Medical School - COA $80K yr. another alternative would be to go to Rice $300K for 4yr. (80% of Rice pre med students matches without a gap yr., 60% into Texas medical schools) and then try to match into a t25 Texas medical school which are very reasonable compared to the rest of the country. knowing how dedicate and hard worker D is, this is accomplishable.

 

[mammabear2004]

Doesn’t Northwestern offer a BS/MD? I thought they were T20.

They no longer offer the bsmd program as of this yr. Same with WashU BSMD offering.

 

[mammabear2004]

To add on, Rice-Baylor has a BS/MD but it isn't accelerated just guaranteed admission. I think Brown has something like that too.

Yes, Rice-Baylor was her top choice and she interviewed for it. Rice sent her application to Baylor. They selected 16 or so students out of 1700 this year to interview and offered admission to 6 candidates only. D didn't get an offer.

 

[mammabear2004]

no

 

[KnightDoc]

Any idea why?

Yes. Because they certainly don't need it to attract top talent, and because it does nothing to increase diversity (which was their stated reason).

When you think about it, the HS students who have the connections and means to gather the experiences you need to be competitive are not exactly representative of the diversity they seek in the class as a whole. To the extent such programs are golden tickets into medicine, it hardly seems fair to restrict that to wealthy, connected people who can arrange research experiences for their kids, as well as to people who know what med schools look for in applicants when their kids are only 13 or 14 years old (volunteering, super high grades and SATs, etc.), and who have the means to make sure their kids check every box.

Now, don't get me wrong, I agree this concern can be mitigated by just increasing diversity in the rest of the class, but this is what Northwestern said when it killed its program, not this year, but a few years ago. The fact is as I said before. T-Nothing schools use BS/MD programs to grab high stat applicants in HS that they would never have a shot at 4 years later.

T20s don't need to do that, so there is no reason for them to take a chance on an immature 17 year old they might not want in 4 years. They have their pick of the cream of the 60,000+ person crop as it is. And that's why top MD programs don't participate in BS/MD programs.

HPME faculty terminate program

The Honors Program in Medical Education, a seven-year program that annually admits around 20 students simultaneously to Northwestern and the Feinberg School of Medicine, will be permanently discontinued. In an email, HPME program director and Feinberg Prof. Aarati Didwania said the program was...

dailynorthwestern.com

 

[mammabear2004]

Yes. Because they certainly don't need it to attract top talent, and because it does nothing to increase diversity (which was their stated reason).

When you think about it, the HS students who have the connections and means to gather the experiences you need to be competitive are not exactly representative of the diversity they seek in the class as a whole. To the extent such programs are golden tickets into medicine, it hardly seems fair to restrict that to wealthy, connected people who can arrange research experiences for their kids, as well as to people who know what med schools look for in applicants when their kids are only 13 or 14 years old (volunteering, super high grades and SATs, etc.), and who have the means to make sure their kids check every box.

Now, don't get me wrong, I agree this concern can be mitigated by just increasing diversity in the rest of the class, but this is what Northwestern said when it killed its program, not this year, but a few years ago. The fact is as I said before. T-Nothing schools use BS/MD programs to grab high stat applicants in HS that they would never have a shot at 4 years later.

T20s don't need to do that, so there is no reason for them to take a chance on an immature 17 year old they might not want in 4 years. They have their pick of the cream of the 60,000+ person crop as it is. And that's why top MD programs don't participate in BS/MD programs.

HPME faculty terminate program

The Honors Program in Medical Education, a seven-year program that annually admits around 20 students simultaneously to Northwestern and the Feinberg School of Medicine, will be permanently discontinued. In an email, HPME program director and Feinberg Prof. Aarati Didwania said the program was...

dailynorthwestern.com

I respect your opinion and appreciate the added info you always provide. I understand your point clearly about BA/BSMD vs traditional path. However, you are generalizing that every single applicant to those programs are: "wealthy, connected people who can arrange research experiences for their kids and ..." That isn't true and my family isn't the exception. Indeed, my D is bright, scores extremely well in tests, maximum GPA, took the most challenging courses possible in HS, secured some incredible researches. She did it all on her own by always trying her 100%, by being super motivated, spending hours on the phone, pursuing leads, gathering knowledge about specialties of her interest, and etc... We are not wealthy parents. We are not health professionals and don't have any connections in this field. We are a very hard-working family that puts the education of their children in the first place and saved for that accordingly. I know that she has a good chance of getting into a T10,20... going the traditional pre med route, but it isn't a guarantee. On the other hand, she has a sure ticket to a T70 medical school. What are the ramifications of taking either one of these paths? I approached this forum because you all must have gone through this, at one point in your life, and have some insight on prestige of a school vs assurance and etc. Ultimately, it will be her decision. Again, i understand that D has good options and it is in a good place. I am very thankful for that. I am just understanding all the facts in order to make an informed decision. Thank you!

 

[mammabear2004]

You may not be wealthy, but there are three important considerations with your argument. First, many high schoolers need to work a job to help support their family or themself. Adding research on top of that is not feasible. Second, being able to conduct research requires being near a university with many laboratories that don’t have policies against high schoolers. Someone in the middle of Kansas will not find this to be as doable as someone 5 minutes from Emory.

Lastly, there will always be exceptions to the rule, but students from well-known private high schools with connected parents will certainly be able to get a research gig and a shadowing gig much easier than an identical student without those two privileges. Even if 1/3rd of the class got in on pure merit alone, that’s still 2/3rds that got in for less ideal reasons.

Yes, i agree. She was very fortunate to get accepted into a public magnet school where she worked very hard.

 

[KnightDoc]

I respect your opinion and appreciate the added info you always provide. I understand your point clearly about BA/BSMD vs traditional path. However, you are generalizing that every single applicant to those programs are: "wealthy, connected people who can arrange research experiences for their kids and ..." That isn't true and my family isn't the exception. Indeed, my D is bright, scores extremely well in tests, maximum GPA, took the most challenging courses possible in HS, secured some incredible researches. She did it all on her own by always trying her 100%, by being super motivated, spending hours on the phone, pursuing leads, gathering knowledge about specialties of her interest, and etc... We are not wealthy parents. We are not health professionals and don't have any connections in this field. We are a very hard-working family that puts the education of their children in the first place and saved for that accordingly. I know that she has a good chance of getting into a T10,20... going the traditional pre med route, but it isn't a guarantee. On the other hand, she has a sure ticket to a T70 medical school. What are the ramifications of taking either one of these paths? I approached this forum because you all must have gone through this, at one point in your life, and have some insight on prestige of a school vs assurance and etc. Ultimately, it will be her decision. Again, i understand that D has good options and it is in a good place. I am very thankful for that. I am just understanding all the facts in order to make an informed decision. Thank you!

Actually, I am not generalizing about "every single applicant." Only the successful ones. HS freshman and sophomores who don't come from families with doctors or parents who are hovering, with the time and means to be arranging experiences, transportation, etc., don't really have a chance at BS/MD programs.

These programs do not tend to be racially or economically diverse. That doesn't mean no one like your kid can break through, but, yeah, the vast majority of successful applicants in these programs look very similar to each other. Regardless of how you may feel (very few people actually think they are "wealthy"), if you are in a position to pay for your child's education without outside assistance, you are objectively "wealthy," no matter how hard you worked or how much you deprived yourself over the years to get there.

Either way, there is no need to diverge into a debate over whether or not BS/MD programs add to the diversity of a UG program or med school class. I'm not wrong about why they exist, who they benefit, and why top med schools and most top UGs don't offer them. You have now received a diversity of views from which you can pick and choose whichever path makes the most sense for your kid. Good luck!!

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

I feel like certain schools stopped offering the school programs because they weren’t attracting a similar level of talent as they could through regular admissions.

Most students who could get into these programs at Pitt, NW, Wustl could also get into Ivys that offer significantly better need based aid. These same students then often get into the aforementioned medical schools but the school can only take so many because they already have obligations towards bs/md students

 

[anesussy]

My D, senior in HS, needs help deciding on which path to take regarding the best way to achieve her goal in life od becoming a physician.

BSMD: she was accepted into NJIT/NJMS, 7 yr program

Pre med UG: accepted at Rice (Houston is our hometown), Northwestern, WashU and Vanderbilt. At Vanderbuilt she got merit scholarship - full tuition plus stipend for the 4 years

What path she should take and what school will be the best knowing that she has no doubts that she wants to be a physician (neuroscience major)? Money won't be an obstacle but would like to avoid gap years to get into medical school, if all possible. Thank you very much for helping us out.
,

Very impressed with the fact that your kid persuaded you to come on here and ask questions for them. I'm sure that wasn't easy.

 

[mammabear2004]

Very impressed with the fact that your kid persuaded you to come on here and ask questions for them. I'm sure that wasn't easy.

no, she doesnt even know that i am here. I am sure you are very smart and doing really well in med school but there is no need for sarcasm or arrogance in trying participate in this forum. if you don't have anything to contribute please don't interfere with others comment. thank you!

 

[deleted314957]

I would just like to offer a different perspective for her to consider. I go to a school with a linkage BS/MD program and it's incredibly apparent based on maturity who is a linkage student as opposed to a tradition student and non-traditional students. Some I've seen struggling with aspects of professionalism when interacting with patients and physicians. Many I've talked to mention how stressed they were trying to get everything done.

If your daughter has any other interests she would like to explore and take optional classes or be part of extracurriculars, a traditional 4-year college would give her the latitude. She's obviously maintained good grades in high school, college will be harder, but it's not impossible. It would also give her the option of selecting a school for medical school. Additionally, while not taking the MCAT is a plus, taking STEP as your first long-standardized test is daunting to some.

I also took many gap years and I would say it has definitely helped me a lot in my classes and working with physicians in clinic. Most of my classmates who have the extra work/research/volunteer experience have great skills and backgrounds that they bring to the class as well.

USNW is nonsense. No one will care or know where she went to med school 20 years from now. Take it from a 70 y.o. retired MD.

 

[deleted314957]

thank you! i guess there is no right or wrong answer but i dont want my 17 yr old daughter to act out of fear and take the NJMS path and not try to go for a better medical school in the future.

“better medical school” is an extremely nebulous concept. They all teach pretty much the same thing- a basic medical education. Makes you a “ doctor” in name only. it is the 6 years after that where the rubber meets the road. take the MD in the hand.

 

[deleted314957]

I am firmly of the opinion that the far better option would be Vanderbilt tuition-free. The only thing getting in the way of your daughter becoming a doctor would be lack of motivation, in which case medicine would be the wrong choice. However, if she has the motivation, she will likely have far better options through the traditional path. Likewise her options will be far better if she changes her mind about a career in medicine.

This has not been the experience of the hundreds of physicians I personally know. Just take the MD you have been handed.

 

[anesussy]

no, she doesnt even know that i am here. I am sure you are very smart and doing really well in med school but there is no need for sarcasm or arrogance in trying participate in this forum. if you don't have anything to contribute please don't interfere with others comment. thank you!

I'm confused. I thought the child was supposed to intercede on behalf of the parent? Anyway, happy Easter.

In all seriousness, though, I believe that your daughter should be asking the questions considering it's HER future.

 

[deleted314957]

?????

Since you are breaking it down into dollars and cents, and coming up with a $4M-$6.5M opportunity cost based on one less year of tuition and an extra year or more of earnings, compounded over 30 years at a rate that is far from guaranteed, how are you accounting for the 4 years of zero tuition or other costs at Vanderbilt, plus the elimination of the possibility of any med school scholarship money in the future? Or the enhanced potential to match into a higher paying specialty coming from a school that has an even more impressive match list than NJMS' "darn good" one?

I could easily perform the same analysis as you and manipulate the numbers to show an even greater than $6.5M opportunity cost to taking the guarantee.

It really is not about dollars and cents, but, if you want to go there, the more prudent path would be to take the FREE T20 UG, and let the future take care of itself. If anyone is a prime candidate to get into a T10 med school, ORM or not, it's the person who scored the all expenses paid 4 year trip to Nashville coming out of HS.

Big flaw in your reasoning. No one has ANY idea what will be a “ hot” or more popular or higher paying specialty 14 years from now when she would finish residency. They change all the time and 14 years is a loooong time. People applying to med school anticipating specialties based on today’s current environment are fooling themselves. Since I graduated in 1977 i have seen darned near every specialty be very hot or in the toilet. And they rotate regularly.

 

[KnightDoc]

Big flaw in your reasoning. No one has ANY idea what will be a “ hot” or more popular or higher paying specialty 14 years from now when she would finish residency. They change all the time and 14 years is a loooong time. People applying to med school anticipating specialties based on today’s current environment are fooling themselves. Since I graduated in 1977 i have seen darned near every specialty be very hot or in the toilet. And they rotate regularly.

My reasoning isn't flawed, because the only point I was trying to make is that the so-called "opportunity cost" was based on nothing except an incorrect accounting of upfront costs and speculative assumptions about rates of investment return. I was just saying that I could also make speculative assumptions regarding future income and scholarship opportunities, plus a correct accounting of upfront costs, and arrive at a diametrically opposite conclusion regarding which option had the significant opportunity cost.

 

[pazzer2]

?????

Since you are breaking it down into dollars and cents, and coming up with a $4M-$6.5M opportunity cost based on one less year of tuition and an extra year or more of earnings, compounded over 30 years at a rate that is far from guaranteed, how are you accounting for the 4 years of zero tuition or other costs at Vanderbilt, plus the elimination of the possibility of any med school scholarship money in the future? Or the enhanced potential to match into a higher paying specialty coming from a school that has an even more impressive match list than NJMS' "darn good" one?

I could easily perform the same analysis as you and manipulate the numbers to show an even greater than $6.5M opportunity cost to taking the guarantee.

It really is not about dollars and cents, but, if you want to go there, the more prudent path would be to take the FREE T20 UG, and let the future take care of itself. If anyone is a prime candidate to get into a T10 med school, ORM or not, it's the person who scored the all expenses paid 4 year trip to Nashville coming out of HS.

A 7% compounded interest rate is fairly conservative for long-term investments. For the last 10 years, the S&P has delivered about 14%. My back of the envelope calculation was based as follows:
1. One less year of tuition ($70K)
2. One additional year of earnings ($400K)
3. Lower COA (I assumed 7 years NJIT/NJMS vs Rice/Private Med school) - roughly $100K
Total: $570K

Taking that $570K and putting it into a simple S&P index fund over 30 years earning 7% would deliver $4.4 M. If the market performed like it did over the past decade (12-14%), then the returns would be much higher.

I see your point about the free UG tuition, but the point is that most students, even from a T20 school like Vanderbilt will have to do 1-2 gap years. The salary as an attending is the biggest driver of the lost opportunity cost. So I can't see a way that spending an extra 1-3 years before earning an attending salary would make sense. However if you'd like to run your own analysis, I'd love to see it.

 

[KnightDoc]

A 7% compounded interest rate is fairly conservative for long-term investments. For the last 10 years, the S&P has delivered about 14%. My back of the envelope calculation was based as follows:
1. One less year of tuition ($70K)
2. One additional year of earnings ($400K)
3. Lower COA (I assumed 7 years NJIT/NJMS vs Rice/Private Med school) - roughly $100K
Total: $570K

Taking that $570K and putting it into a simple S&P index fund over 30 years earning 7% would deliver $4.4 M. If the market performed like it did over the past decade (12-14%), then the returns would be much higher.

I see your point about the free UG tuition, but the point is that most students, even from a T20 school like Vanderbilt will have to do 1-2 gap years. The salary as an attending is the biggest driver of the lost opportunity cost. So I can't see a way that spending an extra 1-3 years before earning an attending salary would make sense. However if you'd like to run your own analysis, I'd love to see it.

And if the market doesn't just keep going up forever, and actually reverts to the mean, the next decade could average a negative 7% compounded return. What happens to your calculation then?

How does one less year of tuition yield a $70K savings when under the alternative, all 4 years are not only free, but actually come with a stipend? Your alternative actually costs more, not less, at least for the first 4 years. As for gap years, BS. Around 1/3 of all med school classes enter with zero gap years. You should take it on faith that that 1/3 is chock full of applicants like those who receive full COA scholarships from schools like Vanderbilt.

And then, you are not allowing for the possibility of a med school scholarship for the kid who scored a full COA scholarship to a T20 UG. Not exactly beyond the realm of possibility. That just takes care of the cost side of the equation.

And THEN, you haven't considered the possibility that the star with the full COA scholarship at Vandy might have a better shot at a more lucrative specialty coming from a more prestigious med school, with or without a gap year or two. THAT will ultimately mean more to a lifetime of earnings than any BS calculation either of us can perform using unknowable future rates of return on unknowable investments on incorrect amounts of money you are thinking are being saved right now that are actually being spent, not saved, on tuition at the BS/MD program. What about the 7% that isn't being earned on the tuition plus living expenses during the 3 years at NJIT?

None of this can be accurately quantified. My point was that your analysis is just one possibility, based on bad inputs and speculative assumptions.

 

[deleted314957]

My reasoning isn't flawed, because the only point I was trying to make is that the so-called "opportunity cost" was based on nothing except an incorrect accounting of upfront costs and speculative assumptions about rates of investment return. I was just saying that I could also make speculative assumptions regarding future income and scholarship opportunities, plus a correct accounting of upfront costs, and arrive at a diametrically opposite conclusion regarding which option had the significant opportunity cost.

I now see your point.

 

[SPR77]

My D, senior in HS, needs help deciding on which path to take regarding the best way to achieve her goal in life od becoming a physician.

BSMD: she was accepted into NJIT/NJMS, 7 yr program

Pre med UG: accepted at Rice (Houston is our hometown), Northwestern, WashU and Vanderbilt. At Vanderbuilt she got merit scholarship - full tuition plus stipend for the 4 years

What path she should take and what school will be the best knowing that she has no doubts that she wants to be a physician (neuroscience major)? Money won't be an obstacle but would like to avoid gap years to get into medical school, if all possible. Thank you very much for helping us out.
,

Can we ask what you guys decided last year?
Our D has gotten into a similar 8 yr BS/MD, no MCAT program and Rice. Got waitlisted at 4 ivies. Not sure if we should take the risk at Rice vs assured program. We are an ORM family, but no family background in medical field. She is the val at her school. So she works hard.
Please share your thoughts, we would really appreciate it.