BSN to MD

[LizzieRN]

Hi all!

I've recently become interested in pursuing the premed path (again) and am in need of some (or a lot of) advice. I've been scouring these boards for a while now to answer my own q's and have read some great advice but still kind of confused on how I should approach some of this. So I've decided to come out of lurkedom and make my first post. I have a lot of questions so please, bear with me...

So I did really poorly in my undergrad years due to undiagnosed ADHD through some of it, and through the rest I was pretty much unmedicated (couldn't stand the side effects and went through every type of med before stopping) and barely passed my BSN program. In 2017, I started working as a nurse in a critical care unit in a large, busy, level 1 trauma county hospital. I recently moved to the ER in the past few months (I LOVE it) and have learned through working so closely with MDs and NPs that I am definitely more interested in becoming an MD and pretty much disillusioned with becoming an NP for various reasons I won't get into right now (not that they're bad, just not for me). I also happened to recently find a new medication that wasn't around a few years ago that has helped sooo much and I can definitely tell a difference. And then I also recently made some extra money to pay the crazy fees for a 'comprehensive ADHD eval' by a psychologist (which was required by my undergrad to give accommodations as they wouldn't accept just a psychiatrist's diagnosis, they wanted both *eye roll*) so now I am able to get accommodations at any school I go to. With all these changes I feel it's time to kind of explore this path again. I have always wanted to be a doctor, but since bombing the only Gen Chem classes I took (D+ and then C for 1 and 2, respectively), withdrawing from Bio 1, and then taking A&P 1 and 2 both with Cs, by the end of my 2nd year of college, I pretty much gave up any hope of becoming a doctor. However, I seem to keep coming back to that throughout my life. I'm at a point now (I'm 26) where I feel that if I don't try to pursue medicine again and give it my all, I'll regret it 10 or 20 years down the road. Also, I recently met a physician who had been a med student, then a resident, and then part of the faculty at the med school of the undergrad I went to and worked in the same ER I work in now during his residency. He told me that based off my experience if I were applying to that to the med school after making good grades taking extra classes, he definitely would have admitted which was pretty surprising to hear but kind of helped relight my fire for pursuing this. But definitely taking what he said with a huge grain of salt.

I recently calculated my grades and they really are quite abysmal - according to AMCAS my cGPA: 2.52 after 185ch and my sGPA: 1.91 after 35ch. I know ppl have come back from bad grades, but has anyone come back from this?... Obviously I'd have to make straight A's from now on. I'm not 100% convinced I calculated my gpas totally right - how did y'all double check this? - although it should be close enough that it doesn't matter too much


So anyway, I'm planning on doing a DIY postbacc at the state university as my employer will pay for classes, and my questions are these:

1) I have only taken Gen Chem 1 (made a D+, then retook it online from a rando CC to satisfy a prereq for nursing school where I made an A) and then got a C in gen chem 2 at another local university in TX where I'm from before going back for nursing school. Those were in the 2011-2014 years and I do not remember a thing from those courses (probs from my ADHD causing issues with retaining anything I've ever learned).
So, would it look bad to retake Gen Chem 1 and Gen Chem 2 or do I leave it as is? It would basically be the 3rd time of taking Genchem 1, I believe, and I'm worried how med schools would perceive that BUT it was an online CC course that I understand most schools wouldn't accept(?) and I've also read you should retake any less than a C. I also don't think it's wise to go into orgo without having a good foundation in those courses so if I shouldn't retake the chem classes, where should I go to find good refresher materials to basically self-teach those? Are there expirations on prereqs?

2) Since I work FT as a RN, how many credits/semester is adequate/respectable to a medical school? And are there any suggestions on the best combination of prereqs to take/timetable? I only have taken genchem 1 and 2 before and withdrawn from Bio 1..

3) Am I forever closed out of the MD school option (and should only consider DO?) or are there friendlier MD schools that accept nontrad reinventors with good postbacc grades despite a cgpa that is not 3.0?

4) And since my cGPA is well under 3.0... do I continue taking classes until I am over that (which calculated looks to be ~90ish ch assuming As... = like 3yrs of study I think...) or should I do a postbacc to only satisfy prereqs and maybe some upper level undergrad science courses OR a postbacc for prereqs and possibly an SMP as well (assuming I could get into one)?
I know Goro's reinvention guide says the point is to prove that "the us now is not the us from back then" so we are not necessarily trying to raise it above a 3.0. BUT I've also read that many MD schools automatically screen for less than 3.0 and I don't know any other way to get around this.... what is one to do?

5) While I know working with MDs is not the same as shadowing MDs... how many hours of shadowing is acceptable? And same with volunteering hours, how many hours/wk or time is acceptable? I have plenty of hours from undergrad with a couple different organizations I was passionate about but I'm assuming it's necessary to show recent volunteering hours as well?

And finally last q:

6) Should I try to get more recent research experience in or is what I have enough/is it not that important for nontrads? In undergrad I worked on cancer research during my 3rd and 4th years working on a cancer fatigue and inflammation marker study which involved interacting with patients and processing blood in the lab. Don't remember the specifics of the science behind it too much right now but could probably look it up again to refresh my memory.


I'm sure my situation isn't that unique for a nontrad with bad a UG gpa but I'm currently in the planning timeline stages of how/what I should do the next couple years and keep running into these questions I can't figure out how to answer. I'm trying to build a good foundation so I have the best chance at being successful . Any good info/advice would be greatly appreciated and thanks in advance!

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[Etopn23]

I would work part time as an RN (Maybe 2 12s on weekends?) and do an official post bacc with a connection to a medical school. I would buff your ECs (non clinical and research if possible). If you want an MD IMO you will need a 520+ MCAT.

Having a low GPA after freshman year is one thing, after graduation will make things harder for you IMO as far as MD is concerned. You'll need to put in some significant work to make it happen.

 

[Dr. Let 'er Buck]

That GPA with 185 hours is going to be hard to lift. You are correct that many schools auto reject with a GPA <3.0. So getting there seems to be a critical step in getting eyes on your application.

At this point, you are looking at years of classes both as pre-reqs and GPA repair. Like you figured, 90 credits at 4.0 would show massive improvement on your GPA. Is that realistic however? If you maintain even slightly lower (3.75 for example), you begin to add needed credits rapidly. You are basically needing to do another bachelor's degree and almost ace it.

With class loads, you need to demonstrate that you can handle rigorous academic semesters. This will be even more critical given prior performance. For example, I took 18 credit hours most semesters, putting calculus, physics, and ochem together. It was horrific, but I was in a similar boat to you where I needed to show I could handle the academic rigors and pass courses. I had to pull my hat down and just trudge through the crap.

In your shoes, I'd really have to wrap my head around what is needed to become a physician. It involves almost an entire bachelor's degree executed perfectly, then the usual MCAT stuff, ECs, interview, and acceptance. The linchpin of this is in doing some GPA repair and surviving. For now, I would focus on classes. All of the gen chem/o chems, physics, biologics, etc. Then, in a couple years if everything goes to plan, start bringing all of the extra elements together.

If you can show the GPA repair and academic survival, crush the mcat, and be rounded in ECs, you probably stand as much of a chance as anyone.
Long road ahead if that is what you choose. Even then, no guarantee. Remember, only about 40% of med school applicants ever get accepted. Think long and hard before jumping into this. It's not something which you can half heartedly attempt.

Good luck in whatever you choose.

 

[emergencydancing]

I hate to be the naysayer, but you are facing a very uphill battle. Do you have any evidence that you can handle the rigor of the premed classes, let alone medical school? I hate to say this, but most medical school caliber students can probably give minimal effort and do better than a C at a typical university. You mention you were diagnosed with ADHD, do you have medication for it and can handle it?

I think your mentality should be to assume you are not going the medical school route, do whatever you'd normally do, while slowly experimenting with rigorous coursework to see if you can handle it. The much easier route is to not pursue it altogether, if you have trouble with academics, it's going to be hell.

 

[curbsideconsult]

1) I have only taken Gen Chem 1 (made a D+, then retook it online from a rando CC to satisfy a prereq for nursing school where I made an A) and then got a C in gen chem 2 at another local university in TX where I'm from before going back for nursing school. Those were in the 2011-2014 years and I do not remember a thing from those courses (probs from my ADHD causing issues with retaining anything I've ever learned).
So, would it look bad to retake Gen Chem 1 and Gen Chem 2 or do I leave it as is? It would basically be the 3rd time of taking Genchem 1, I believe, and I'm worried how med schools would perceive that BUT it was an online CC course that I understand most schools wouldn't accept(?) and I've also read you should retake any less than a C. I also don't think it's wise to go into orgo without having a good foundation in those courses so if I shouldn't retake the chem classes, where should I go to find good refresher materials to basically self-teach those? Are there expirations on prereqs?

Your coursework is old enough that it likely won't hurt you to retake all of the med school prereqs. By the time you apply, it will have been roughly 10 years since your first go 'round at these classes and many if not most med schools won't even count them.

2) Since I work FT as a RN, how many credits/semester is adequate/respectable to a medical school? And are there any suggestions on the best combination of prereqs to take/timetable? I only have taken genchem 1 and 2 before and withdrawn from Bio 1..

Working full time and taking 2-3 classes can be done IF you can smush all of your work hours into the weekend. If you must work a traditional weekday schedule, then you can do 1-2 classes a semester depending on the difficulty of the class.

3) Am I forever closed out of the MD school option (and should only consider DO?) or are there friendlier MD schools that accept nontrad reinventors with good postbacc grades despite a cgpa that is not 3.0?

Not forever closed off to MD, but don't snub your nose at DO. If you don't get into MD and get "only" DO acceptances, you should be happy and go with it.

There are plenty of nontrad friendly MD schools but you have to do exceptionally well this time around in order for them to consider you. Just search SDN or the internets and you'll find them.

4) And since my cGPA is well under 3.0... do I continue taking classes until I am over that (which calculated looks to be ~90ish ch assuming As... = like 3yrs of study I think...) or should I do a postbacc to only satisfy prereqs and maybe some upper level undergrad science courses OR a postbacc for prereqs and possibly an SMP as well (assuming I could get into one)?
I know Goro's reinvention guide says the point is to prove that "the us now is not the us from back then" so we are not necessarily trying to raise it above a 3.0. BUT I've also read that many MD schools automatically screen for less than 3.0 and I don't know any other way to get around this.... what is one to do?

If you do an SMP you will probably not be able to work. SMPs are full-time and unless you're an absolute genius there's no way to work and do an SMP well.

Don't apply to schools that have an automatic screen.

5) While I know working with MDs is not the same as shadowing MDs... how many hours of shadowing is acceptable? And same with volunteering hours, how many hours/wk or time is acceptable? I have plenty of hours from undergrad with a couple different organizations I was passionate about but I'm assuming it's necessary to show recent volunteering hours as well?

If you have a lot of work hours as an RN, forget the shadowing. You can shadow if you want, but with your clinical experience, shadowing should be at the very bottom of your priority list.

As for volunteering, it's not so much the number of hours as it is the commitment to the activity/ies. For example, if you get 250 hours of volunteering done this year, but none for the next 2, you'll have plenty of hours but it won't show that you're dedicated to service. It just looks like you did it to check off boxes. Start volunteering now or in the near future just 3-4 hours a week through your application season and then you'll have plenty of hours and will show long-term commitment.

6) Should I try to get more recent research experience in or is what I have enough/is it not that important for nontrads? In undergrad I worked on cancer research during my 3rd and 4th years working on a cancer fatigue and inflammation marker study which involved interacting with patients and processing blood in the lab. Don't remember the specifics of the science behind it too much right now but could probably look it up again to refresh my memory.

Research should be second to last on your priority list.

 

[RNthenDoc]

I agree with the above.

Take your prerequisites as slowly as you need, work your butt off as an RN and deplete any loans you have and start saving money like mad (Med school needs to make financial sense of you apply later in life, so minimizing loans is important). Don’t take the MCAT until you are predicted to get the score you need.

It’s doable.

Choosing MD over NP cost me 7 digits, and will likely cost you even more, but it is worth it in the long run.

 

[Dr. Let 'er Buck]

Choosing MD over NP cost me 7 digits, and will likely cost you even more, but it is worth it in the long run.

Not to deviate from the OP, but is this purely tuition, or have you figured in salaries of NP while in MD school and such? I figure the latter but wanted to be sure.

 

[hamiltonnyc]

Not to deviate from the OP, but is this purely tuition, or have you figured in salaries of NP while in MD school and such? I figure the latter but wanted to be sure.

This was talked about a lot here Need help with choosing a realistic path to DO or NP

My takeaway is finances should not be a decision for or against this, since in the short term it's a sink but long term you come out on top. The only people who can really say it'll cost them 7 figures is people who are currently making $200k, since short term and log term it's a financially bad decision.

 

[RNthenDoc]

Not to deviate from the OP, but is this purely tuition, or have you figured in salaries of NP while in MD school and such? I figure the latter but wanted to be sure.

This is the whole opportunity cost, including NP salary during MD school and residency.

The physician salary offsets it eventually, but at my age, investing the earlier gains wisely actually makes it almost budget-neutral either way. Given how much easier NP education is, my reasons for choosing MD were not financial.