Build-Your-Own MD/MBA Program! (must read; great times ahead)

[pachewisc]

Hey guys. I'm on my surgery clerkship now and wanted to burn time during my night call by writing this unnecessarily lengthy post.

So who am I and why should you bother reading all this crap? For starters, I'm a 3rd year MD student that ended up at an school that didn't offer an MBA, so I "built my own" MD/MBA program. I'm looking to specialize in Peds Ortho, but I've always had a strong interest in eventually dabbling in hospital administration specifically related to reducing redundancy, improving communication, and enhancing efficiency and patient care. Because of this, I thought, "What the heck. I'm still young and should get an MBA now before I'm a crotchety 50 y/o with a family, busy medical practice, etc. and no time or interest in going back to school for some masters degree. Future me has enough crap on his plate."

So. General consensus is to get a masters degree (MBA, MPH, etc.) between 3rd and 4th year, which is how most every true dual degree program is set up. I ended up applying to Northwestern, Cornell, Emory, and Notre Dame last summer/fall for the 2016-2017 year. Most of them had pre-req requirements such as accounting or marketing, but luckily I took business courses in college. I choose these 4 because they are the only top 25 US schools that offer 1 year programs: #6, 16, 21, and 25 in order (get with the program you other 21 schools!). There are also schools like Oxford, Cambridge, and other international schools, but their semester timing really interferes with medical school and residency apps, living abroad for a year between 3rd and 4th year would be a gigantic hassle, and I had concerns about how translatable their healthcare courses would be for someone looking to improve a single hospital (I mention this because they may be a good options for someone who may want an MBA to turn Obamacare into NHS).

Going into it my main priorities were as follows (in order): cost of attendance (CoA) > quality of healthcare education >> prestige > location. Like many med students, I have a mountain of debt, so CoA as I accumulate more loans and interest is hugely important. Healthcare education is also a top priority, only slightly behind CoA. For prestige, they're all top 25 and nationally known schools, so the discrepancy isn't THAT big (despite what some suit might tell you). Plus, I consider an MBA a "secondary degree" behind the MD, so rankings aren't as big of a deal. If you truly believe a future employer is going to ignore an MD/MBA applicant because their MBA is "not prestigious enough," I'd say you're being a bit ridiculous. The MD/MBA combo's supply is still FARRRR exceeded by the very high demand that you'd be an elite member of a highly marketable club no matter where the MBA is from.

Main learning points for me from applying/interviews on these 4 schools:

• You all know the normal crap about filling out an application, preparing for interviews, getting letters of rec, etc. My letters were from a school dean and a physician who knew me well and wrote me a glowing letter (didn't want a research letter since my MBA goal isn't research-related, it's healthcare administration).
• All the schools interviewed me. I think they think think med students are cool or rich or something? Kidding. I'm actually just that awesome.
• They all offered video interviews for students who couldn't make it. Unlike med school, interviews are just that, a 45min interview. No tours or mind game lunches or surprises hidden behind sequential doors. I was skeptical, but didn't have time to be flying all over God's country, so I Skyped in. They stressed that, and from what I can tell, video interviews vs in person no impact on outcomes (went 2/2 on video interviews, 1/2 in-person).
• Northwestern and Emory offer true healthcare foci and courses within their MBA curriculums. Cornell lets students take healthcare courses at other schools, such as their school of public health, but don't have much to offer specifically within their B-school. ND is similar, but has even less to offer (they literally emailed me after my interview to say they only had 1 healthcare course).
• MBA programs squeeze you for cash and know they can squeeze harder if their name is bigger. NW and Cornell are extremely pricey ($95k for tuition alone)! Emory and ND weren't "cheap" either, at I believe $75k and $65k respectively. All significantly more than the typical $50k for private med schools. They rationalize this because it's three semesters of tuition. Sure, okay, fine; I'll deal with it.
• Financial rant continued: the greater the "clout," the stingier the school. NW stated they don't offer any scholarships to 1 year students, Cornell gives out some, and ND and Emory have more (understandably, schools reserve most of their scholarship money for true, 2-year students). I'm convinced this pattern relates back to the fact that the majority of MBA applicants put school ranking as their #1 criteria and will go to the pricier option strictly for reputation, and schools obviously know this.

Ended up getting into Cornell, ND, and Emory, and they all offered me scholarships. I spoke with NW, and they told me that they "value class diversity and only wanted X number of medical/healthcare students in their class." Makes sense. Apparently, they already have quite a few enrolled in their school's MD/MBA program this year in addition to one/some incoming attendings and other healthcare-business peeps. They recommended applying again next year. Not gonna happen guys... Aren't you reading? I'm on a timeline! Plus, given their sky-high CoA and lack of scholarships, retrospectively I probably wouldn't have chosen NW given my other options.

As for Cornell, they carry a good name/hospital and give someone access to the NE region of the USA, but their high tuition even after scholarship, crummy location (it's in Ithaca, not NYC), and lack of healthcare courses within their business school were all letdowns. ND base-tuition was the lowest and it'd be fun to go to football games, but being in South Bend would kinda be a drag and they truly had very little to offer someone looking to get an MBA with a healthcare focus.

With that being said, I ended up accepting Emory's offer because they really had the full package: national MBA reputation (#21 overall, #3 amongst 1-year US programs), extensive healthcare course offerings to maximize the degree, lower tuition plus a substantial scholarship (ended up being the cheapest overall), very strong hospital with great research that'll allowed me to branch out from the Midwest (this'll be helpful for residency apps), and had an earlier start to their program so it won't eat into 4th year as much. Phew, that was quite the run on sentence, wasn't it?

Anywho. Sorry that was a lot of personal story time and not some fantastical instruction manual on becoming a sweet MD/MBA student, but hopefully someone finds it helpful or informative. I'm very excited about this upcoming year, and, if you're reading this and looking to do something similar, shoot me a message or comment. Take care!

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[MDviaMBB]

As you mentioned, reading your post was great times.

I'm curious, though, given that there are ~ 50-60 MD/MBA programs, what would compel medical students to pursue Emory's, Cornell's, etc MBA over one at their medical school's or another local university? Just that they're 1 year long? That would be what I'd imagine a lot of people might ask themselves when considering what you wrote about.

I may want to write about this and a related topic on a website I'm working on, too. Feel free to PM me to connect on LinkedIn (other SDN memers can do the same); that website is described there, along with alternatives to MBAs for pre-medical and medical students interested in clinical research, pharmaceutical development, etc (e.g. MScs in those respective fields that they can do prior to attending or intercalate into medical school, or do later).

Also, this forum over-emphasizes post-baccalaureate and "special masters" programs (SMPs). There are better ways for students to increase their candidacy for medical school and much, much better ways to prepare for their careers than those, including the above MBAs and MSs/MScs (excluding MPHs).

 

[pachewisc]

I'm curious, though, given that there are ~ 50-60 MD/MBA programs, what would compel medical students to pursue Emory's, Cornell's, etc MBA over one at their medical school's or another local university? Just that they're 1 year long? That would be what I'd imagine a lot of people might ask themselves when considering what you wrote about.

True, there are 50-60 MD/MBA programs, but that leaves ~100 MD programs without accompanying MDs and the vast majority of DO schools also lack the MBA dual degree option. Some students, such as myself, may fall into the "majority" and not get into a medical school that has an MD (or DO) & MBA degree option, and this is the next best option for them. Alternatively, there are students who may not decide until 2nd or 3rd year that they want an MBA, which is often too late even if they are at a program with a dual degree, as you usually have to apply to those before or during first year since they're integrated into the MD years. Lastly, students may want to go to a B-school outside their home institution for a number of reasons: save money (with scholarships I'll be saving a ton compared to spending another med school year's worth of tuition, $50k, for my MBA year, which is normal for most MD/MBA programs), more catered course offerings, stronger MBA reputation, establish yourself in a desired area, or simply to try somewhere new.

 

[MDviaMBB]

True, there are 50-60 MD/MBA programs, but that leaves ~100 MD programs without accompanying MDs and the vast majority of DO schools also lack the MBA dual degree option. Some students, such as myself, may fall into the "majority" and not get into a medical school that has an MD (or DO) & MBA degree option, and this is the next best option for them. Alternatively, there are students who may not decide until 2nd or 3rd year that they want an MBA, which is often too late even if they are at a program with a dual degree, as you usually have to apply to those before or during first year since they're integrated into the MD years. Lastly, students may want to go to a B-school outside their home institution for a number of reasons: save money (with scholarships I'll be saving a ton compared to spending another med school year's worth of tuition, $50k, for my MBA year, which is normal for most MD/MBA programs), more catered course offerings, stronger MBA reputation, establish yourself in a desired area, or simply to try somewhere new.

I asked the question I did to see where you're coming from. And, it sounds like we're on the same page.

I've spoken to Kellogg, Cornell, and Goizueta -- as well as UChicago, Wharton, Dartmouth among many others -- about taking a scholarly leave of absence from whichever medical school I attend to pursue their MBA, how you described.

Anyhow, regarding my website, your reply to my question is what I want to write about. Thanks for the feedback. I'll have to think over what you said and bump this thread with what I come up with when I find the time.

 

[pachewisc]

I asked the question I did to see where you're coming from. And, it sounds like we're on the same page.

I've spoken to Kellogg, Cornell, and Goizueta -- as well as UChicago, Wharton, Dartmouth among many others -- about taking a scholarly leave of absence from whichever medical school I attend to pursue their MBA, how you described.

Gotcha.

One tip I have is that you should be more concerned about the medical school allowing you to leave than the MBA programs allowing you to attend as a med student. In general, B-schools (and grad schools in general) could care less if you have to take a break from other schools to attend their program, because it makes no difference to them. You'd be just a normal student paying tuition and attending full time. I can imagine these are the responses you've been getting from the B-schools.

The school that you're taking a break from is the one that care. Most med schools do no allow more than 1 year absence from their program except for extreme circumstances (health, loss of loved ones, etc.), which is why most every MD dual degree is 5-years (obviously aside from PhDs). They're investing a lot of time and effort and money into you as a student. If you would want to go to a 2-year program like some of the ones you listed above, just know now that your future medical school will most likely not to allow that.