bully surgeons: should we stand up for nurses in the o.r.

[Mman]

Another question...

What do you do with a surgeon who, on more than one occasion, has hit an anesthesia resident in the head with an instrument when our resident is under the drapes checking the arms or the airway?

accident?

If not you call the police and file a report of an assault. That tends to generate a nice paper trail and result in all sorts of disciplinary action.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[B-Bone]

Another question...

What do you do with a surgeon who, on more than one occasion, has hit an anesthesia resident in the head with an instrument when our resident is under the drapes checking the arms or the airway?

I remember this guy! I took a knock on the noggin from him (with him yelling "cool it down there!") with a forceps while trying to check twitches on a ridiculously draped patient. Good times.

 

[deleted126335]

Another question...

What do you do with a surgeon who, on more than one occasion, has hit an anesthesia resident in the head with an instrument when our resident is under the drapes checking the arms or the airway?

Open the foley on his feet a few times. He should get the message eventually.

 

[Consigliere]

Another question...

What do you do with a surgeon who, on more than one occasion, has hit an anesthesia resident in the head with an instrument when our resident is under the drapes checking the arms or the airway?

You keep quiet about it like a good little resident.

 

[deleted480308]

Another question...

What do you do with a surgeon who, on more than one occasion, has hit an anesthesia resident in the head with an instrument when our resident is under the drapes checking the arms or the airway?

You must decide if that hill is worth dying on....being right isn't always worth the risk of losing the battle

 

[ihearttriangles]

As a third year who just finished his surgery rotation all I can say is "wow." I went in thinking that anesthesiology is a field that really interests me. I came out knowing that anesthesiology really interests me but the thought of having to work with A-holes surgeons for the rest of my life has pretty much completely dissuaded me. At first, I was like "Am I on candid camera?" Cause there is no way in hell people should be allowed to get away with this kind of behavior. It definitely was just a select few surgeons but they really made the whole OR environment a caustic one. And what amazed me more than anything was that nobody seemed to want to do anything about it.
Do you guys think that surgical culture is changing or are things going to be like this for the foreseeable future? And how many of you regret choosing anesthesiology specifically for the fact that you have to put up with these people?

 

[Ignatius J]

You keep quiet about it like a good little resident.

I am a pretty laid back guy, but I would draw the line there. I most definitely would not keep my mouth shut. If it happened and I was a resident, I would notify my attending and immediately tell the surgeon I would like to have a discussion man to man once the case was over doing my best not to let my emotion dictate the conversation. If the surgeon is out of the "heat of the moment" and still found nothing wrong, we very well could have a problem.

 

[Ignatius J]

You must decide if that hill is worth dying on....being right isn't always worth the risk of losing the battle

DOING what is right is, IMO.

 

[deleted480308]

DOING what is right is, IMO.

Just remember that some freedom fighters get elected president of their new country and some get deposited into treads in tienamen square. I'm all for raging against the machine, but be aware that the machine can rage back

 

[Ignatius J]

Just remember that some freedom fighters get elected president of their new country and some get deposited into treads in tienamen square. I'm all for raging against the machine, but be aware that the machine can rage back

I see what you are saying, but nobody is saying you have to come out guns a-blazin'. Having a cordial, calm conversation to someone who has committed an egregious and unprofessional violation against someone you are responsible for is a no-brainer to me. It's pretty standard adult human behavior. Like I said, I don't say much. I am very flexible and it takes a lot for me to say something, but there is a time and a place when a man (or woman) needs to decide if they want to live with conviction or not.

If you can't have an honest conversation with the Man in the Glass at the end of the day, what's the point in living?

 

[ssmallz]

As a third year who just finished his surgery rotation all I can say is "wow." I went in thinking that anesthesiology is a field that really interests me. I came out knowing that anesthesiology really interests me but the thought of having to work with A-holes surgeons for the rest of my life has pretty much completely dissuaded me. At first, I was like "Am I on candid camera?" Cause there is no way in hell people should be allowed to get away with this kind of behavior. It definitely was just a select few surgeons but they really made the whole OR environment a caustic one. And what amazed me more than anything was that nobody seemed to want to do anything about it.
Do you guys think that surgical culture is changing or are things going to be like this for the foreseeable future? And how many of you regret choosing anesthesiology specifically for the fact that you have to put up with these people?

Really surprised and saddened to hear your experience. Don't let that dissuade you too much b/c it's the exception and not the rule. At the private hospitals I work with 90% of the surgeons I work with are good people and I actually look forward to working with a bunch of them when I see them on the schedule and consider them friends. In 2 years of being out I can think of only 1 out of 50 or 60+ surgeons that I refuse to work with because attitude problems. There are plenty of other reasons not to choose anesthesia but having 1 bad experience with a surgeon shouldn't be one of them

 

[ssmallz]

Another question...

What do you do with a surgeon who, on more than one occasion, has hit an anesthesia resident in the head with an instrument when our resident is under the drapes checking the arms or the airway?

Bring this up to your program director. This kind of thing is a pretty blatent violation and your program director should be able to handle the matter by either bringing it up at the next meeting or simply not allowing residents to work in his room. Either way this is certainly a battle worth fighting, just don't do it directly b/c as a resident, it's really not your place to confront this surgeon

 

[Mman]

and I'm serious about calling the police (hospital or other). When they get called, they have to fill out a report. That report has names in it and to maintain credentials, the offending surgeon will have to go through lots of steps and will definitely not be making that same mistake again.

 

[deleted307836]

and I'm serious about calling the police (hospital or other). When they get called, they have to fill out a report. That report has names in it and to maintain credentials, the offending surgeon will have to go through lots of steps and will definitely not be making that same mistake again.

Out of curiosity - couldn't the professional backlash from doing this be substantial, be it from other surgeons, the hospital, or other anesthesiologists? Many are wary of the person who "rocks the boat."

 

[Gern Blansten]

Involving the police is the wrong solution. Dejavu is an attending, IIRC.
I would schedule a face to face meeting to discuss the incident if I heard it happened to one of my residents. I would also make sure I knew all sides of the story. It is pretty embarrassing to confront someone based on half truths. I've been there.
You just tell them it is not acceptable behavior and is demeaning. You tell them if they have problem with the resident's performance, they should feel free to contact you.
End it there. If it occurs again, a formal complaint to the chair is warranted.
That is how I would handle it. I think everyone deserves a chance to correct their behavior once it is pointed out as unacceptable.

 

[Dejavu]

Involving the police is the wrong solution. Dejavu is an attending, IIRC.
I would schedule a face to face meeting to discuss the incident if I heard it happened to one of my residents. I would also make sure I knew all sides of the story. It is pretty embarrassing to confront someone based on half truths. I've been there.
You just tell them it is not acceptable behavior and is demeaning. You tell them if they have problem with the resident's performance, they should feel free to contact you.
End it there. If it occurs again, a formal complaint to the chair is warranted.
That is how I would handle it. I think everyone deserves a chance to correct their behavior once it is pointed out as unacceptable.

Excellent advice.

I am an attending and, believe me, this hasn't happened to one of my "people". If it ever does, this surgeon would be dealing with me. I tell all my residents and CRNAs that if they have any problem with this guy, I want to know about it immediately. He has been written up enough that he has used up his grace period, in my book.

Actually, I tell my people to call me if anybody who gives them grief.

One thing I learned in the Marine Corps about leadership is that you protect your people.

 

[pgg]

One thing I learned in the Marine Corps about leadership is that you protect your people.

The only time I got in any measure of 'trouble' as a resident was when I stood up to an abusive surgeon. My attending was MIA. Even after the incident he was meek and invisible. I regret saying anything to the surgeon, it just wasn't worth the hassle and fallout in the long run.



Doormat administrators, OR nurses, and anesthesiologists share the blame for the existence of these surgeons. Fortunately I haven't really encountered any since residency.

 

[Mman]

Out of curiosity - couldn't the professional backlash from doing this be substantial, be it from other surgeons, the hospital, or other anesthesiologists? Many are wary of the person who "rocks the boat."

not if it is in response to physically abusing a resident by hitting them with instruments. Zero tolerance for that sort of thing. If that surgeon doesn't respond to professional discussions about the matter, it's a legal matter.

 

[Jay K]

Another question...

What do you do with a surgeon who, on more than one occasion, has hit an anesthesia resident in the head with an instrument when our resident is under the drapes checking the arms or the airway?

If the surgeon's abusing my resident for fun, oh it's on, like Donkey Kong...