Burnout/Career change..?

[sunshine008]

I am in a [research heavy] clin psyc program. First year of grad school is barely in the books for me and I am feeling burnt out. So far I do not feel like I am good at research-so consequently I am not loving it- and I do not like therapy. I feel I would truly enjoy teaching but I have not yet taught so this is strictly an assumption. I am quite far from home here at school (school: PA, home: AZ) and I often wonder why I am sacrificing important things like being close to my family-some members of which are elderly and ill- if I feel uncertain about my career path. Finally: academia is terrifying. All I hear are stories of doom and gloom and impending sadness in the academy. No thank you!

To get to the point: I am thinking about quitting my program and pursuing a masters to teach high school students. Of course, the idea of quitting, failure and disappointment is haunting.
But ABSURDLY, my salary teaching high school students with a masters degree would not be much less than doing allah knows what with my doctorate, and 2-3 years is preferable to the 6+ years I still have in front of me before I can even do post-doc --postdoc is essentially required for my concentration- let alone get licensed. I feel like my youth is wasting away (I am 25.....single...want kids....).

I am having a hard time with this decision. I do not want to choose anything rashly. Can anyone relate? Who can I talk to about this?

For clarification purposes- I would like to add: I am not wholly miserable here. I feel happy with my advisor, classmates, and fellow colleagues in the program. I have received great feedback. I am content with my new town. I am doing great in my classes, although I admittedly struggle here and there. I am just unsure if this is the correct path for me.

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[edieb]

I am in a [research heavy] clin psyc program. First year of grad school is barely in the books for me and I am feeling burnt out. So far I do not feel like I am good at research-so consequently I am not loving it- and I do not like therapy. I feel I would truly enjoy teaching but I have not yet taught so this is strictly an assumption. I am quite far from home here at school (school: PA, home: AZ) and I often wonder why I am sacrificing important things like being close to my family-some members of which are elderly and ill- if I feel uncertain about my career path. Finally: academia is terrifying. All I hear are stories of doom and gloom and impending sadness in the academy. No thank you!

To get to the point: I am thinking about quitting my program and pursuing a masters to teach high school students. Of course, the idea of quitting, failure and disappointment is haunting.
But ABSURDLY, my salary teaching high school students with a masters degree would not be much less than doing allah knows what with my doctorate, and 2-3 years is preferable to the 6+ years I still have in front of me before I can even do post-doc --postdoc is essentially required for my concentration- let alone get licensed. I feel like my youth is wasting away (I am 25.....single...want kids....).

I am having a hard time with this decision. I do not want to choose anything rashly. Can anyone relate? Who can I talk to about this?

I would say you're in your first year of graduate school. I remember during my first 2 years, the initial shock was just setting in and I still wasn't thinking too clearly. Although a PhD is a lot of work and you don't want to do research, the degree can open a lot of doors for you, some you can't see right now. On the other hand, a master's would lead to a lot fewer options. Also, from what I understand, the market for teachers is not too great right now
either

 

[DynamicDidactic]

I found second year to be the most difficult in grad school. It got easier afterwards - in a way - more like I was doing a lot of hard work but it was my own hard work.

However, if you hate it now wait till you have to meet the major milestones (thesis defense, comps, the horrible internships process, and even more after that).

So, it gets harder and easier all at the same time. Make sure not to make this decision lightly. Talk to your advisor, DCT, cohort, older students, and family.

 

[PHD12]

However, if you hate it now wait till you have to meet the major milestones (thesis defense, comps, the horrible internships process, and even more after that).

I think most people want to quit clinical psychology programs at various times throughout graduate school. I don't know if this is just a phase for you, but 6+ years is a long time to be unhappy. Life is way too short.

I agree with dynamic didactic that things get more stressful as you hit more milestones in a way. My frustration was probably at it's height during the internship and postdoc process, and also at various points while working on my dissertation. I kept persisting because I didn't want to quit and invested a lot in the degree. I won't be able to tell you if it was worth it until maybe 5 years or so post-degree. Maybe when I am mid-career I will reap the rewards.

I would say that overall this field is not worth it (given the length of training and many sacrifices you will continue to make) unless you can't imagine doing anything else and actually enjoy the work. There is a reason why only 1% of people get PhD degrees at all (and no they are not the top 1% financially). Most people are doing well without even a graduate degree (and in fact only 30% of people have even college degrees in this country). People often lose perspective when in graduate school.

I think it would be helpful to take some time and get some clarity on your values and goals and whether this degree is consistent with those goals. It often helps to talk to friends outside of psychology as well. Maybe even a therapist?

 

[Rivi]

I think you are just in Stage 2 or 3 of my model

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=983712



I can definitely relate. I am a fourth year now, and things have gotten a lot better, although there are still doubts and stress that come up. I think it is common to feel alone in these things as everyone in grad school, including (especially) professors, tend to act like they have everything together and are living the dream when they are struggling as well.

I completed internship interviews not too long ago, and it was awesome to meet so many psychologists who enjoyed their job and were passionate about what they did. The light at the end of the tunnel starts getting brighter as time goes on, I think.

Edit: I second PHD12's advice, it may help to talk to a therapist or career counselor, or talk to as many psychologists working "in the real world" as possible. It may help for inspiration, or it may clarify that it isn't worth it for you and you might want to pursue other paths.

 

[fallen625]

I am in a [research heavy] clin psyc program. First year of grad school is barely in the books for me and I am feeling burnt out. So far I do not feel like I am good at research-so consequently I am not loving it- and I do not like therapy. I feel I would truly enjoy teaching but I have not yet taught so this is strictly an assumption. I am quite far from home here at school (school: PA, home: AZ) and I often wonder why I am sacrificing important things like being close to my family-some members of which are elderly and ill- if I feel uncertain about my career path. Finally: academia is terrifying. All I hear are stories of doom and gloom and impending sadness in the academy. No thank you!

To get to the point: I am thinking about quitting my program and pursuing a masters to teach high school students. Of course, the idea of quitting, failure and disappointment is haunting.
But ABSURDLY, my salary teaching high school students with a masters degree would not be much less than doing allah knows what with my doctorate, and 2-3 years is preferable to the 6+ years I still have in front of me before I can even do post-doc --postdoc is essentially required for my concentration- let alone get licensed. I feel like my youth is wasting away (I am 25.....single...want kids....).

I am having a hard time with this decision. I do not want to choose anything rashly. Can anyone relate? Who can I talk to about this?

For clarification purposes- I would like to add: I am not wholly miserable here. I feel happy with my advisor, classmates, and fellow colleagues in the program. I have received great feedback. I am content with my new town. I am doing great in my classes, although I admittedly struggle here and there. I am just unsure if this is the correct path for me.

As someone who has recently quit another career to pursue psychology - I think the best advice I got is not to quit until you are fairly sure that Psychology is not for you and that you would be happy with your other alternatives (teaching). Unfortunately once you quit, it is very hard to go back. It would be terrible if you missed Psychology and regretted it.

Maybe try to get a TA position for the next semester and see how much you like it? This will answer questions on whether teaching is for you. At the same time, you will see if grad school does get better.

I think what I experienced with career changes is that the grass seems to always be greener on the other side.

And about the young and single thing - I think it might be a good idea to try to go to mixers with grad students in other fields that are a little male heavier than Psych (ei - computer science)

 

[pretzels]

I think PHD12 said it best; re-assess why you applied to a doctoral program, i.e., what are your goals? What do you want to do that you -need- a phd for?

 

[Psychadelic2012]

It's so much harder when you're not wholly miserable. You're happy with your advisor and classmates?! Rock on. However, it does stink to get burned out on therapy so fast. Having been in other careers myself, I know what it's like to have a true passion for something that is sustained over the years. Therapy is not one of those things for me.

No one feels like they're good at research. Could you stick it out and watch yourself get better at it (you will!) and perhaps aim for more of a teaching career? You're quite young and this is the time to explore your interests. There are so many options in your program, I'm sure. If you're at least a little happy there, that's worth something.

 

[cara susanna]

My professor once gave us really good advice: if you're thinking about quitting during the semester, don't think about it until you're on winter or summer break. At that point, think about it and then decide if you still want to quit.

 

[futureapppsy2]

My professor once gave us really good advice: if you're thinking about quitting during the semester, don't think about it until you're on winter or summer break. At that point, think about it and then decide if you still want to quit.

I think this is really great advice, as it's really common to feel completely overwhelmed and burnt out around the end of the semester (November-December and April-May). In fact, almost all grad students I know have hit this "end of the semester wall," often multiple times.

 

[sunshine008]

Hi everyone.

I am the OP for this thread.

I feel I have decided that this is not the career for me. I am not happy with the work I am doing and I do not think I am good at it. It is cumbersome and time consuming for me to get things done that other people in this program seem to have an easy time doing. I am sad away from home and don't want to spend 4-5 more years of my life doing something I'm not in love with.

My question now is- how do I approach this with my advisor? I am the only one in my lab. I don't want to screw any one over. I don't know how to explain this to my colleagues, advisor and people who are close to me.

 

[cara susanna]

Do you actually not enjoy research or do you think that you're just not good at it?

 

[sunshine008]

Do you actually not enjoy research or do you think that you're just not good at it?

A little of both maybe? I do not think I am best at writing and find the entire process tedious. My biggest concern is my lack of creativity in coming up with new research designs/ideas.

 

[erg923]

A little of both maybe? I do not think I am best at writing and find the entire process tedious. My biggest concern is my lack of creativity in coming up with new research designs/ideas.

Dude. Its your FIRST year. Is that expected in your lab?

Certainly its expected that you have an area of interest and general direction, but learning design, methods, stats, and even the right (pragmatic) questions to ask is a learning process...and takes accumulated skill in the aforementioned areas.

What about the clinical side of things?

 

[sunshine008]

Dude. Its your FIRST year. Is that expected in your lab?

Certainly its expected that you have an area of interest and general direction, but learning design, methods, stats, and even the right (pragmatic) questions to ask is a learning process...and takes accumulated skill in the aforementioned areas.

What about the clinical side of things?

Oh yes. I think it is expected throughout my program. I have not done much clinical work yet but so far am somewhat struggling with administering certain tests...I chalk that up to the fact that they are new to me, though. I think practice makes perfect with those things. I am not sure how I feel about therapy.

 

[erg923]

Oh yes. I think it is expected throughout my program.

Then I am not sure I understand where the learning curve is expected to take place?

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Formulating research questions definitely does seem to be an acquired/learned skill with most folks, so I wouldn't necessarily lose all hope just yet. Heck, I still stink at it for the most part, but I nonetheless enjoy research, even if that aspect of it requires more work from me than it might lots of other people. Just because it seems to be implicitly expected from day 1 doesn't mean the expectation is actually reasonable. Professors can be notorious for having unrealistic/unreasonable expectations of their students.

Although if you've already absolutely decided you're leaving, then sitting down privately with your advisor is the way to go. Odds are you aren't the first person to either leave the lab, or at least mention the thought of doing so. And even if you are the first, your advisor likely knew people in grad school who left (or perhaps even had similar thoughts her/himself). If that doesn't go well for whatever reason, the department chair or graduate advisor (our department had its own) would probably be your next stop.

Actually, sitting down and discussing your concerns with your advisor, regardless of whether you stay or go, seems to me to be a great first step.

 

[sunshine008]

Formulating research questions definitely does seem to be an acquired/learned skill with most folks, so I wouldn't necessarily lose all hope just yet. Heck, I still stink at it for the most part, but I nonetheless enjoy research, even if that aspect of it requires more work from me than it might lots of other people. Just because it seems to be implicitly expected from day 1 doesn't mean the expectation is actually reasonable. Professors can be notorious for having unrealistic/unreasonable expectations of their students.

Although if you've already absolutely decided you're leaving, then sitting down privately with your advisor is the way to go. Odds are you aren't the first person to either leave the lab, or at least mention the thought of doing so. And even if you are the first, your advisor likely knew people in grad school who left (or perhaps even had similar thoughts her/himself). If that doesn't go well for whatever reason, the department chair or graduate advisor (our department had its own) would probably be your next stop.

Actually, sitting down and discussing your concerns with your advisor, regardless of whether you stay or go, seems to me to be a great first step.

I'm afraid to do so because if I decide to stay I don't want to be perceived as a quitter for the remainder of my time here. I don't want to add that tension or negative feelings to the mentor-mentee relationship. My thoughts of quitting have now become a daily thing and I'm unsure who to turn to. Sometimes older students joke that "they wanted to quit five minutes ago" and that it is normal, but I think what I'm feeling is beyond school stress and frustrations. I feel like I am in the wrong field entirely.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I'm afraid to do so because if I decide to stay I don't want to be perceived as a quitter for the remainder of my time here. I don't want to add that tension or negative feelings to the mentor-mentee relationship. My thoughts of quitting have now become a daily thing and I'm unsure who to turn to. Sometimes older students joke that "they wanted to quit five minutes ago" and that it is normal, but I think what I'm feeling is beyond school stress and frustrations. I feel like I am in the wrong field entirely.

What I'd meant was to initially discuss with your advisor the concerns that're causing you to seriously consider leaving the program (e.g., difficulty coming up with research questions). He/she might have some insights to offer, or might be able to tailor supervision/meet with you independently to work on those areas.

If that conversation doesn't go to your liking/alleviate your concerns, or if the possible steps taken afterward don't work, you could then bring up your desire to leave.

Just one possible course of action. And yes, it's normal; I don't know of a single person who didn't contemplate leaving grad school (for whatever reason) and who didn't feel at least somewhat overwhelmed at least a few times, particularly during those first two years.

Edit: It's possible you're in the wrong field, sure. It's also possible that it's the right field, but that your current training environment/experiences aren't working for you. Or that your current research interests aren't a good fit. Or, as you haven't yet had much in the way of clinical work, that you're deep down more of a clinician than a researcher.

 

[irish80122]

Formulating research questions definitely does seem to be an acquired/learned skill with most folks, so I wouldn't necessarily lose all hope just yet. Heck, I still stink at it for the most part, but I nonetheless enjoy research, even if that aspect of it requires more work from me than it might lots of other people. Just because it seems to be implicitly expected from day 1 doesn't mean the expectation is actually reasonable. Professors can be notorious for having unrealistic/unreasonable expectations of their students.

Although if you've already absolutely decided you're leaving, then sitting down privately with your advisor is the way to go. Odds are you aren't the first person to either leave the lab, or at least mention the thought of doing so. And even if you are the first, your advisor likely knew people in grad school who left (or perhaps even had similar thoughts her/himself). If that doesn't go well for whatever reason, the department chair or graduate advisor (our department had its own) would probably be your next stop.

Actually, sitting down and discussing your concerns with your advisor, regardless of whether you stay or go, seems to me to be a great first step.

I will leave it to others to help you weigh the pros/cons of staying and, like acronym, address how to talk with your advisor. Full disclosure: I am an advisor who recently had a mentee leave the program, so I can talk about it from the other side.

I agree 100% with AcronymAllergy that the first step is to sit down and have a heart to heart with your advisor. We all made it through graduate school, and I suspect you will find that your advisor is far more understanding than you expect. For me, I really appreciated that my student had come to me, and was being honest about where things stood.

When I am in this situation, I primarily focus on the student's reasons for leaving in order to assess whether there are things that can be changed in order to make it work. Some students may just need encouragement, as it is easy to be too tough on yourself. Others may need something in the program adjusted, and lastly sometimes there is just no way to fix the problem. Regardless, I appreciate having the student there, honestly stating what they need, so we can hopefully find a solution. If we can't find a solution, then the question is how to help the student exit the program as gracefully as possible. This is where an advisor can really play a big role, as depending on the school we can help minimize the financial cost of leaving and make it as seamless as possible. Further, by informing us as early as possible, it also helps us minimize the effect of the loss. For instance, I was able to take two students this year because I knew I was losing a student. Thus, again, I was really appreciative that the student came to me, even though we weren't able to find a solution for the student other than leaving the program.

I hope that helps some. Good luck with your decision!

 

[sunshine008]

What I'd meant was to initially discuss with your advisor the concerns that're causing you to seriously consider leaving the program (e.g., difficulty coming up with research questions). He/she might have some insights to offer, or might be able to tailor supervision/meet with you independently to work on those areas.

If that conversation doesn't go to your liking/alleviate your concerns, or if the possible steps taken afterward don't work, you could then bring up your desire to leave.

Just one possible course of action. And yes, it's normal; I don't know of a single person who didn't contemplate leaving grad school (for whatever reason) and who didn't feel at least somewhat overwhelmed at least a few times, particularly during those first two years.

Edit: It's possible you're in the wrong field, sure. It's also possible that it's the right field, but that your current training environment/experiences aren't working for you. Or that your current research interests aren't a good fit. Or, as you haven't yet had much in the way of clinical work, that you're deep down more of a clinician than a researcher.

Would you suggest sticking it out until I start seeing clients, then? I'm not wildly optimistic about therapy, but you never know until you try, I suppose. I am afraid to drag the process on and waste any more time in this program if I'm going to dislike therapy as well, though. I'd like to start looking into alternative careers sooner rather than later.

 

[sunshine008]

I will leave it to others to help you weigh the pros/cons of staying and, like acronym, address how to talk with your advisor. Full disclosure: I am an advisor who recently had a mentee leave the program, so I can talk about it from the other side.

I agree 100% with AcronymAllergy that the first step is to sit down and have a heart to heart with your advisor. We all made it through graduate school, and I suspect you will find that your advisor is far more understanding than you expect. For me, I really appreciated that my student had come to me, and was being honest about where things stood.

When I am in this situation, I primarily focus on the student's reasons for leaving in order to assess whether there are things that can be changed in order to make it work. Some students may just need encouragement, as it is easy to be too tough on yourself. Others may need something in the program adjusted, and lastly sometimes there is just no way to fix the problem. Regardless, I appreciate having the student there, honestly stating what they need, so we can hopefully find a solution. If we can't find a solution, then the question is how to help the student exit the program as gracefully as possible. This is where an advisor can really play a big role, as depending on the school we can help minimize the financial cost of leaving and make it as seamless as possible. Further, by informing us as early as possible, it also helps us minimize the effect of the loss. For instance, I was able to take two students this year because I knew I was losing a student. Thus, again, I was really appreciative that the student came to me, even though we weren't able to find a solution for the student other than leaving the program.

I hope that helps some. Good luck with your decision!

Thank you, that was very helpful. As I mentioned I am the only one in my lab so I worry about there not being anyone to take my responsibilities, as my advisor did not take a student this year.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Would you suggest sticking it out until I start seeing clients, then? I'm not wildly optimistic about therapy, but you never know until you try, I suppose. I am afraid to drag the process on and waste any more time in this program if I'm going to dislike therapy as well, though. I'd like to start looking into alternative careers sooner rather than later.

Only you can make that call. Given the ramifications, waiting might not be a horrible idea. But at the same time, if you know the field isn't for you, then waiting might just frustrate you further. Although nothing's necessarily stopping you from at least looking into alternative careers even if you do stay.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

A little of both maybe? I do not think I am best at writing and find the entire process tedious. My biggest concern is my lack of creativity in coming up with new research designs/ideas.

You may be confusing "lack of creativity" with not having enough tools or developed process to cultivate good research questions. It really isn't as easy as, "Hey! I have this great idea....". The vast majority of what is being done out there ISN'T completely new, but instead it is trying to approach a problem from a slightly different angle.

As someone from the other side (I tend to be very creative in my ideas), I get bogged down in the 1,001+ ways I would want to analyze the data, tweak the design, etc. I didn't start out this way though, as I had to learn all of the nuts and bolts and really understand stuff as simple as mediators v. moderators, ordinal v. nominal, etc. Your research questions can often come from a real case or problem, but translating that into a useable idea requires you to know how to look at the factors in a more precise way.

Thank you, that was very helpful. As I mentioned I am the only one in my lab so I worry about there not being anyone to take my responsibilities, as my advisor did not take a student this year.

*Definitely* start a conversation with your mentor about your struggles. I'm sure they probably picked up on something (unless they are Professor Smith). S/he has a vested interest in you and hopefully they can help you make better sense of what isn't working.

ps. I HIGHLY recommend reading Piled Higher & Deeper. It is the single best representation of the pressures of graduate school that I have found.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

6.....the number of times I seriously considered quitting graduate school and moving to an Island to be a fisherman, "riding the rails" as a hobo, or going back to my prior soul-sucking career. Most of those times were in the first 2 years.

 

[paramour]

6.....the number of times I seriously considered quitting graduate school and moving to an Island to be a fisherman, "riding the rails" as a hobo, or going back to my prior soul-sucking career. Most of those times were in the first 2 years.

This should be a sign. I contemplated these things just about every other month for every single year I was here.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

This should be a sign. I contemplated these things just about every other month for every single year I was here.

Totally normal. I look at people funny if they tell me their grad school experience was great...had time to see their family....had a super nice mentor, etc. I'm happy for them...but that isn't normal!!

OP....you are only 1 year in, you most likely *aren't* good at research, which is why you have more years to develop as a researcher. Definitely talk to your mentor and/or another faculty member you trust.

 

[erg923]

This should be a sign. I contemplated these things just about every other month for every single year I was here.

Dr.E has spoken about her terrible grad school experience and the factors that made it so. The factors in your program, from what I recall, also had to do with faculty-student relations...along with concerns about real clinical training (not just this in-house outpatient clinic stuff), correct? Advice for any newbies? Things to look out for? For me personally, since I am now faculty in a training program, things to watch-out for and be vigilant about as a faculty member?

 

[FallenMind]

It sounds like the research is frustrating you. Have you ever considered a Psy.D program?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

It sounds like the research is frustrating you. Have you ever considered a Psy.D program?

One of the pillars of doctoral training is research training, whether it be a Ph.D., Psy.D., or Ed.D program.

 

[FallenMind]

One of the pillars of doctoral training is research training, whether it be a Ph.D., Psy.D., or Ed.D program.

Well I know that there's going to be research in whatever program you enroll in. I know that doctors of Psychology have to conduct a lot of research but I thought that their programs emphasized more clinical practice than actual research.

 

[paramour]

One of the pillars of doctoral training is research training, whether it be a Ph.D., Psy.D., or Ed.D program.

Although it should be, I don't think that's always the case (thinking of a certain PsyD student who merely had to write a paper for their dissertation... and still can't get it finished).

 

[sunshine008]

Totally normal. I look at people funny if they tell me their grad school experience was great...had time to see their family....had a super nice mentor, etc. I'm happy for them...but that isn't normal!!

OP....you are only 1 year in, you most likely *aren't* good at research, which is why you have more years to develop as a researcher. Definitely talk to your mentor and/or another faculty member you trust.

I plan to, but don't want to hurt our relationship in the process. I am currently the only student in my lab and don't want to leave him (my advisor) in a pickle, for lack of a better phrase.

Should I decide to leave, actually, does anyone know if you have to pay back what you have earned on your stipend? In retrospect, if this helps any prospective applicants: I sincerely wish I would have taken time off between UG and my phd program.

 

[thewesternsky]

What kind of stipend was it? I'd say 99/100 you will not have to pay it back if you leave. If it was paid employment (e.g., teaching or research assistant work), then you certainly do not have to pay it back. You earned it.