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I know that 77% of Americans aren't mid- to upper-class. This is hardly an example of of anyone keeping anyone else down.
Bush's Comments on racial quotas
- Thread starter JScrusader
- Start date
I know that 77% of Americans aren't mid- to upper-class. This is hardly an example of of anyone keeping anyone else down.
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DAL,
They will NEVER be placated. Instead, race will always be used as the perfect excuse to never take responsibility for anything in their lives.
And the affirmative action cause is dying... Especially given the fact that the number of African Americans in the middle class has skyrocketed in recent years. They no longer need to lay claim to race and victimization as a pathway to entitlement...
They will NEVER be placated. Instead, race will always be used as the perfect excuse to never take responsibility for anything in their lives.
And the affirmative action cause is dying... Especially given the fact that the number of African Americans in the middle class has skyrocketed in recent years. They no longer need to lay claim to race and victimization as a pathway to entitlement...
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Calm down a little. No one is knocking the NG. My younger brother serves proudly, and I am equally as proud of him.
My point is this: if I were a soldier in the National Guard, I would be slightly offended that it was used as a vehicle to avoid going to a war. This does not happen in 2003 since. . .
1. NG units are now routinely federalized to serve missions overseas.
2. There is no draftm therefore there is no draft to avoid.
However, during the Vietnam War, the NG was abused by the sons of politicians, as a way to keep them from fighting. Two examples come to mind. G. Bush and D. Quayle. I am sure there are others on both sides of the political isle.
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Oh, I apologize. The mere fact that out of the people I meet with daily in meetings in corporate america the majority are white men really merits the need for reverse affirmative action. 
Click here to visit www.WhiteMaleScholarships.com
Click here to visit www.WhiteMaleScholarships.com
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I personally think it's ok for veterans to get extra benefits, but for children with rich parents? I don't see why you should get special treatment just because your parent's are rich. After all, that is something you are "born into." I am not going to b*tch and whine about this because that is the reality of life- the rich and powerful control America. From the poster who said that there is a lot of money earmarked for blacks when the same is not true for white males- well whenever I go into the labs at my school. There are plenty of white males, sometimes a few females and rarely ever URM's. And there are plenty of research programs that encourage everyone to apply. I don't see how special programs or scholarships for women/URM's sets anyone back. I think there are alot of opportunities for people of all backgrounds- you just have to root them out. True, programs just for women/minorities do give these groups a special advantage- but I think that is just about the only time in life minorities have the advantage.
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will i agree no one should earn anything by their both...that is not the case in america...individuals born into wealth family earn wealth and status as well as opportunity as their birthright...the same goes with other scenarios...i also feel that one's birth influences how one is treated in life...that's just the way it is...nothing more nothing less
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Like I said in an earlier post, the reason you don't see many URM's in class is not because they are being rejected. Rather they are not applying as much as whites. A study this year said that 75% of white HS seniors are going on to college, while less than 35% of black/hispanic seniors are. The minority applicant pool is much smaller. The true telling statisitic would be to find out what % of minority applicants get accepted. I'd be willing to wager that more than 65% of minority applicants who apply get accepted, while it is probably around 40-45% for whites. There in lies the difference!
Scenario
100 students represents US population of graduating seniors
54 white
46 minority
There are 30 med school slots
75% of 54 (number who apply) = 40 white applicants
35% of 46 (number who apply) = 16 minority applicants
out of the 16 minority applicants 10% are in the top precentile in stats = 2 acceptances
out of the 16 minority applicants 15 % are in the next percentile, which means 50% get in = 2 acceptances
out of the 16 minority applicants 20% must get accepted to meet AA standards = 3 acceptances.
out of 16 applicants 7 get in--that's more than half of the entire pool!
Of course I just made up the numbers, but I'll bet that they are close to true
Scenario
100 students represents US population of graduating seniors
54 white
46 minority
There are 30 med school slots
75% of 54 (number who apply) = 40 white applicants
35% of 46 (number who apply) = 16 minority applicants
out of the 16 minority applicants 10% are in the top precentile in stats = 2 acceptances
out of the 16 minority applicants 15 % are in the next percentile, which means 50% get in = 2 acceptances
out of the 16 minority applicants 20% must get accepted to meet AA standards = 3 acceptances.
out of 16 applicants 7 get in--that's more than half of the entire pool!
Of course I just made up the numbers, but I'll bet that they are close to true
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Originally posted by LoveDoc
Let's see war, unemployment rate, screwed economy, nuclear weapons, why don't I just bother the peons at UMich with a decision on their racial issues? Who cares if I openly spoke out against Lott (who supports AA across the board
I truly hope we never has a Bush Jr. that runs for president. All I have to say as as the minority #'s grow in America. Bush can kiss another term g o o d b y e.
It's funny that you have "delight thy self in the Lord" at the end of your statements, yet you seem to be so anti-Bush. From what I understand, Pres. Bush gets on his knees and prays before doing anything, in the morning. When asked who his hero was by a member of the liberal press - I believe he stated "Jesus Christ." That takes guts - truly. Any Comments LoveDoc?
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I am not in the mood to get into the AA debate, but I'm going to say one thing: I am not surprised Bush is against AA, because he is very comfortable rescinding rights.
With all the AA, that supposedly goes on at all these schools, I wonder why there are so few African-American physicians? African Americans don't want to be doctors?
Unless something is done to right the injustices African-Americans face when applying to schools and applying for jobs, AA needs to stay.
I fear for my children's future in the post-Bush world.
Since we now have a democratic farce of a government, why not incorporate the favorite pastime of some governments--the dreadful but very effective coup!
Onyx
With all the AA, that supposedly goes on at all these schools, I wonder why there are so few African-American physicians? African Americans don't want to be doctors?
Unless something is done to right the injustices African-Americans face when applying to schools and applying for jobs, AA needs to stay.
I fear for my children's future in the post-Bush world.
Since we now have a democratic farce of a government, why not incorporate the favorite pastime of some governments--the dreadful but very effective coup!
Onyx
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Nice points, but how about some Clinton bashing? He's living the high life up in NY and in Georgetown. He's building a library for himself down in Arkansas, and charging sickening amounts of money to speak at engagements. I heard he may try to get on talk radio. Not that any of these things are inherently wrong, but how much credibility can we grant him when he talks about the poor, oppressed, etc? Just a thought.
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LoveDoc,
Your contributions to this forum convey to me that you believe (whether consciously or unconsciously) that skin color determines ones level of advantage/disadvantage. Sure...there are trends, but I remind you (like others have) that there are plenty of poor white people out there that need all the assistance they can get. When there are systems set up that cater to "minorities," a large amount of people who aren't minorities but could use the help, are left out. That's a shame.
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It'd be really a shame if it were true. According to the UM policy, you get 20 points if you're disadvantaged. College admissions boards definitely take this into account. Just because it's not officially included in AA, doesn't mean it's not considered. Maybe I'm wrong..but do you have evidence that socioeconomic consideration isn't taken to account in admissions?
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i went to a small private college and am still deliberating my own opinion of the AA issue.
what i do know is that, while my school had racial diversity, the socioeconomic diversity did not follow the same lines. in other words, i was a relatively poor white student among some african american students who grew up very wealthy, perhaps more advantaged economically (and therefore overall if you want to look at in that way) than i was...the issue is complex and i think that schools have to look at whether the current policies are establishing the diversity that they wish to reflect, not just racially but also socioeconomically...to me, that supports a much greater good b/c you are truly ensuring that students are receiving equal opportunity to excel.
there it is...for what it is worth.
this is a very critical issue as many of you know since there are about a million comments a day about URMs and whether or not some is a URM...people want to be URMs...etc.
what i do know is that, while my school had racial diversity, the socioeconomic diversity did not follow the same lines. in other words, i was a relatively poor white student among some african american students who grew up very wealthy, perhaps more advantaged economically (and therefore overall if you want to look at in that way) than i was...the issue is complex and i think that schools have to look at whether the current policies are establishing the diversity that they wish to reflect, not just racially but also socioeconomically...to me, that supports a much greater good b/c you are truly ensuring that students are receiving equal opportunity to excel.
there it is...for what it is worth.
this is a very critical issue as many of you know since there are about a million comments a day about URMs and whether or not some is a URM...people want to be URMs...etc.
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Originally posted by LoveDoc
Oh, I apologize. The mere fact that out of the people I meet with daily in meetings in corporate america the majority are white men really merits the need for reverse affirmative action.
Click here to visit www.WhiteMaleScholarships.com
AA has been in place for how many years now? Around 30? If you don't see many minorites or women in your meeting why do you think that is? Could it be because the majority of America is white men and I'd venture to say that most job areas you went into would be majority white males.
I'm not trying to make this a race debate LoveDoc, I just want to know what will appease you? You constantly change the argument never focusing on one thing and never answering questions. What is a good percentage of minorities in the workplace? What is a good percentage of minorities in medicine? I am all for having minorities in medicine because I understand the need for them, but I think they should be held to the same standards as everyone else. Why shouldn't they be? And at what expense should that come? Less experience? Lower GPA? Lower standardized test scores? At what point do you say no I'm sorry that's just not good enough? And what can be done to resolve the situation?
Oh, and I couldn't get your link to work. Was that sarcasm or a legitimate wepage?
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Yes...and those 20 "disadvantaged" points are in addition to the 20 points for being black, hispanic, or native american. By the way...I believe students get either 12 or 16 points for a perfect SAT. 20 vs. 12 (or16)? Wow. That is amazing.
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They get 16 for the SATs. But black doesn't necessarily equal disadvantaged...and the 20 points aren't just for URMs....those are diversity points and can be given to any applicant. Yeah, under that system URMs probably get 20, but a white applicant probably won't get zero. But that's not my issue....my issue is how don't they take account being poor into college admissions?
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this is in response to DR LAWYER...i was unaware that because i am for AA, whether in its present incarnation or not i don't care...anyway i didnt know cuz i supported it and am a minority...I DONT WANT TO GO OUT AND GET A JOB OR DO ANYTHING FOR MYSELF...if thats not a drastic and unfounded generalization i dont know what is...you may disagree with AA, but dont you ever insult me or other minorities by saying we are lazy or always asking for handouts...and further try not to categorize people...i for one dont assume that all non-minorities are rich or out to discriminate against me...so i suggest you try to do the same
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oh yeah correct me if i am wrong but these spots that URMs are taking from non-URMs do they really belong to them...i hear so often well this URM got into medical school with lower stats then me (the person speaking being a non-URM) and took my seat...well correct me if i am wrong but you my friend are not guarenteed that seat...higher education is a privilege not a right...please remember that...a person can not steal from you something you never owned...these schools are not obligated to let a certain person in...that is why there is an admissions process...they pick and choose
C
Chronotropic
Um isn't this what the whole quota issue is about?
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yes it is...so if a school chooses to have a certain procedure or equation that they use for admissions so be it...no one is arguing the constitutionality of giving points for alumni status are they...i am not sure if everyone understands discrimination...just because one or two or five people of a particular group do not get into a school does not mean they are discriminated against...especially when the group that you belong to is still the majority
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that's the whole question ComplexPuzzle. If those one, or two, five, or ten people did not get in, yet have higher scores, more activities, more experience, better rec's, better written essays.....then what else is it if it's not discrimination?
also, i think giving additional points to children of alumni is equally as wrong. but they defend it by saying alumni give funds to the institution which helps keep the place running.
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It's the school's preference. Period. Admissions isn't a strictly merit based game, or computers would be doing the choosing, as ComplexPuzzle alluded to. If a person doesn't get into a certain school, it's not necessarily because they aren't smart enough or good enough or whatever...it's because that person may not be the type of person the school is looking for. The process is arbitrary. Just look at the "Cornell rejected me even though I have a 35 on the MCAT" thread.
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I think its so funny when people complain about the abundance of minority specific scholarships. I scoured fastweb and library books and as a Nat'l Merit Semi Finalist URM never saw any of this flood of money that many whites complain about. A hint to those whiners-- get out, get a job, be an RA, join ROTC... I did sans whining and everything turned out ok.
Beyond that issue, I was just listening to NPR and wanted to share some views on this AA/Bush debate. I'm sure someone may have already brought this up but the greatest reciepients of AA are alumni/upper-class ppl. The good old boy system is alive and well and non-affluent whites (and others) need to recognize this. AA doesn't need to be eliminated. It needs to be restructed to give equal opportunity to everyone, esp those in need.
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One key difference btwn Clinton and Bush-- he wasn't born into wealth, Bush was. He may be wealthy now but at least he is a self made man with some degree of *personal* insight into the poor, oppressed, etc...
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Tremendously fair.
The collection of attributes which make applicants attractive to medical school admission commitees include, but are by no means limited to, the factors which you mentioned. The two applicants that you describe are both demonstrating academic competence, committment, so forth. The minority applicant has the added contribution of their underrepresented ethnicity, culture, and life experiences - traits which are sorely lacking in the medical community and which are aggressively sought after and recruited for.
The medical community and the public benefit far more from the addition of the perspectives, attitudes and skills of the URM than they would from the addition of an applicant characterized only by a marginally better academic performance.
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Thanks for your hint. As a self admitted whiner by your standards I turned one engineering major into two in order to get a tuition scholarship from the second major. I was also able to get various other small scholarships to help me out as I paid my way through college. In the process I also found I was excluded from many, many scholarships because of the color of my skin. You apparently didn't look hard enough because as a Nat'l Merit Semi Finalist URM there is an adundance out there for you, that's for sure.
Either way, my post was directed at LoveDoc who constantly displays "the world is against me and it's not fair" attitude.
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i used to think that aa is wrong.
then i went to teach classes at some in city schools, those kids are not stupid, but just look at their classrooms, those places are totally run down. then i went to those suburban schools, those classrooms are much nicer. some even have computer in the classroom.
so if they are the future competitiors for a position in a college classroom, they didn't start at the equal position. they were not educated equally at the first place. there is no way that they can compete equally for college entrance.
anyway, i also read an article. it said something about the women who sued that school. She failed to tell you all that among those minority students, there were also white students who have lower academic record as she has, yet they were admitted by the college.
then i went to teach classes at some in city schools, those kids are not stupid, but just look at their classrooms, those places are totally run down. then i went to those suburban schools, those classrooms are much nicer. some even have computer in the classroom.
so if they are the future competitiors for a position in a college classroom, they didn't start at the equal position. they were not educated equally at the first place. there is no way that they can compete equally for college entrance.
anyway, i also read an article. it said something about the women who sued that school. She failed to tell you all that among those minority students, there were also white students who have lower academic record as she has, yet they were admitted by the college.
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I think you missed the point of my post. Distinguished legal scholars from around the world have questioned the legal reasoning behind the court's decision and have suggested that the 5 most conservative members of the court voted based on their political preference rather than solid legal reasoning. This hardly seems independent. See The Longest Night : Polemics and Perspectives on Election 2000 for 22 different essays on the election.
As for minorities being turned away at the polls in Florida there was enough concern that this DID occur to hold hearing in front of the state legislature and an investigation by the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights (which resulted in a scolding of the Secretary of State for what had happened). See St. Petersburg Times article: http://www.sptimes.com/News/011301/news_pf/State/Harris_gets_a_scoldin.shtml
Then there was a list of minority "convicted felons" who were disqualified from voting who turned out never to have been convicted of these crimes. See http://archive.salon.com/politics/feature/2000/12/04/voter_file/
And testimony of many people who claim they were disenfranchised as reported by The Daily News, NYT, PBS, C-SPAN and the Financial Times. See below.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/election/july-dec00/voting_12-15.html
and
http://www.fair.org/activism/voting-rights.html
So, I find it VERY DIFFICULT to believe that this did not happen. The U.S. Commission on Civil Rights semmed to think there was "hard proof" enough this happened to call the election 'disaster for your state as well as for the rest of the country and the way people feel about having faith in the system of this country.' (See St. Petersburg Times Article above).
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Youngjock, I agree with you. My parents have taught at a public college in the inner city their entire careers and the students who even make it to college are completely unprepared to do the level of work that students coming out of well-funded suburban high schools do. So I think that until we truly reform the educational system so that everyone starts at the same level, whether from the wealthy suburbs, inner city, or poor, rural area, we cannot make the claim that everyone has the same educational opportunities in this country.
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#1.
white privilege.
http://www.utoronto.ca/acc/events/peggy1.htm
if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.
#2.
George Bush to Yale graduating class: "Never fear 'C' students, for you too can become President of the United States."
Lani Gunier to Smith graduating class: "Never fear 'C' students, for you too can become President of the United States- if you are a straight, white, upper-class male."
#3.
Man, I wish I could be subject to police butality/harassment, have to work my ass off 5x as hard as my white peers just to get the same recognition, be watched (or better yet, followed) when I enter a store b/c I may shoplift b/c I am a member of a certain race, and be told that b/c I didn't get straight A's in college, I need to get off my lazy ass and work as hard as my more deserving white peers, just so I can have a better chance of getting into med school.
#4.
I think we all know that the difference b/w a 3.3 and a 3.5 are a few A's. We're talking about a field that involves emotions like compassion, a strong sense of community, wanting to make life better for people, etc. So, even though YOU may think you're better qualified than someone else b/c YOU got a few more A's in classes we all admit are useless to the medical profession, luckily the adcoms recognize that traits like selfishness, shortsightedness, and a failure to take one's head out of one's ass do not make for a good bed-side manner.
white privilege.
http://www.utoronto.ca/acc/events/peggy1.htm
if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.
#2.
George Bush to Yale graduating class: "Never fear 'C' students, for you too can become President of the United States."
Lani Gunier to Smith graduating class: "Never fear 'C' students, for you too can become President of the United States- if you are a straight, white, upper-class male."
#3.
Man, I wish I could be subject to police butality/harassment, have to work my ass off 5x as hard as my white peers just to get the same recognition, be watched (or better yet, followed) when I enter a store b/c I may shoplift b/c I am a member of a certain race, and be told that b/c I didn't get straight A's in college, I need to get off my lazy ass and work as hard as my more deserving white peers, just so I can have a better chance of getting into med school.
#4.
I think we all know that the difference b/w a 3.3 and a 3.5 are a few A's. We're talking about a field that involves emotions like compassion, a strong sense of community, wanting to make life better for people, etc. So, even though YOU may think you're better qualified than someone else b/c YOU got a few more A's in classes we all admit are useless to the medical profession, luckily the adcoms recognize that traits like selfishness, shortsightedness, and a failure to take one's head out of one's ass do not make for a good bed-side manner.
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Hey...Let's call a truce. We could go back and forth forever (ie - polls staying open an extra 2-3 hours in St. Louis in order to let minorities vote, allowing unregistered people to vote, etc.). It doesn't make much difference to me about how one expert saw the election shake down. I don't care about luring criminals away from the polls or luring them to "Foot Locker" for that matter. Should people who have warrants out be able to vote anyhow? Well...like I said...the world could end before this issue was extinguished. Thanks for the dialogue.
C
Chronotropic
Note: This verbal bashing only applies to whites and asians since you are all obvisoulsy pricks and could never show any of the possitive traits listed above.
Everyone else is excused and congrats on being all around better people.
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sarah_viola:
1. Name some of the specific incidents of racism that happened to you. Name at least one involving the police force you have condemed as racist.
2. Why do you feel like the above entitles you to 300 extra points on your SAT and +.5 on your GPA?
http://www.detnews.com/2000/schools/0011/12/a09-147245.htm
NO, IT IS NOT OK TO SCORE SO MUCH LOWER THEN YOUR PEERS. IT IS NOT OK TO USE YOUR RACE AS AN EXCUSE.
1. Name some of the specific incidents of racism that happened to you. Name at least one involving the police force you have condemed as racist.
2. Why do you feel like the above entitles you to 300 extra points on your SAT and +.5 on your GPA?
http://www.detnews.com/2000/schools/0011/12/a09-147245.htm
NO, IT IS NOT OK TO SCORE SO MUCH LOWER THEN YOUR PEERS. IT IS NOT OK TO USE YOUR RACE AS AN EXCUSE.
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ITA. There was some evening show not too long ago on the "Teachers for America" program. One of the new teachers profiled in an Alabama (IIRC) high school was supposed to be doing grade 11 American Lit - only there weren't any (or enough) copies of novels to give the class, and most of the students didn't have the skills to write an essay anyway.
This ought to be unacceptable.
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sara_viola-
Here is #22 from the piece you provided:
22. I can take a job with an affirmative action employer without having coworkers on the job suspect that I got it because of race.
So do you also see the need for AA reform? From my perspective Peggy McIntosh seems to admit the system is flawed and needs reform. Make the standards equal and someone thinking you got the job or got into the school b/c of AA won't be a problem.
Here is #22 from the piece you provided:
22. I can take a job with an affirmative action employer without having coworkers on the job suspect that I got it because of race.
So do you also see the need for AA reform? From my perspective Peggy McIntosh seems to admit the system is flawed and needs reform. Make the standards equal and someone thinking you got the job or got into the school b/c of AA won't be a problem.
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all programs by institutes of higher learning to promote diversity are racist. all of them. this includes affirmative action. this is one of the major problems that i have with bush?he believes in promoting diversity, but has serious issues with affirmative action: in both cases you are diverting resources and opportunities that could be made equally available to everyone and you are channeling them toward one specific race or group. quota-based aa, preference-based aa, or targeted-recruiting aa: all of these programs are racist. there is no distinction between these actions, and i am deeply disturbed by the hypocrisy that bush exhibits.
that being said, i am firmly in favor of affirmative action. aa is the most practical conceptual framework for remedying inequality for the current generation. from the perspectives of colleges and grad schools, it is usually in their interest to try as best they can to gather people who have had distinctly different experiences. believe it or not the life of a middle class black kid is still probably significantly different than that of a white middle class kid: no matter the exact family income, family dynamics, or place of living. i grew up in a disneyworld of liberal thought and though sometimes i hate to admit it, there was still racism there. furthermore, for medical schools in particular, most want to train a class of physicians that will serve the diverse needs of patients. while a preference toward minorities might be focused around patient racism and while there?s only a certain probability that minorities will go back into underserved communities, doctors are not in the business of undermining patient belief systems and probabilities are at the heart of medicine. aa needs work, it?s should not be a permanent program, but don?t ditch it yet, blah. blah. blah.
so i guess you can call me a racist. but i think we need to clarify what exactly that word means, and take one second to step back from the images of slavery and oppression and black struggle that are immediately called to mind. to be racist is to make distinctions based on race. i?m one of the most tolerant and open-minded people i know, but i?m sure, that at the very least i might occasionally make a sub-conscious distinction based on race. we can?t help it: we?re all products of a certain type of environment that has engrained some level of racism in all of us. it?s natural, and it?s not morally irreprehensible as long as we work through it and it isn't used to hurt people. so when we have a negative reaction toward "racism," i think we are reacting toward the negative effects of such actions. now i?m not a statistician but in reality i highly doubt whether or not removing aa would seriously depress the overall average gpa and mcats for entering med school classes. my guess would be that it would change by at most a point. the difference between "traditional racism" and aa is that urms stood to gain a lot through the ending of the former, but i think it?s fair to say that orms don?t really stand to gain that much from the destruction of aa.
now i know someone will say, "but if you?re taking one spot, you?re taking one spot." that's hurting someone, you're a hypocrite. however, calling it "hurting" is highly questionable. regardless, as i alluded to earlier, med schools have bigger problems to deal with than your dream of a slightly higher gpa or a slightly improved mcat score. maybe you can take care of that yourself. and then some will herald the importance of merit. well clearly there?s a cutoff when med schools think you can do the work (some orms get in with pretty poor numbers too)?after that, they have more important things to think about. and then there?s "that two wrongs don?t make a right thing." that?s bull****. this is the real world. the u.s. killing lots and lots of germans in world war II was right. in a capitalistic society, if there is a perceived net plus for one group, working toward bringing that net positive down to zero is right.
anyway, there will be a little over 400 black males in the next class of american medical schools- nationwide. i will be one of them. i will be at a top 10 school. for those who will be my classmates, i hope that you don?t assume i?m a dumb f--k with a low mcat score and crappy grades. that kind of attitude just encourages the abuse of aa by minorities. i know the importance of probabilities, but take the time to do a little research if you have the opportunity and someone might surprise you, in fact, statistically, someone will almost certainly surprise you. on the other hand for those who think that i?m taking one of their spots, i apologize. But you?re wrong.
oh, and I like kathleen edwards.
that being said, i am firmly in favor of affirmative action. aa is the most practical conceptual framework for remedying inequality for the current generation. from the perspectives of colleges and grad schools, it is usually in their interest to try as best they can to gather people who have had distinctly different experiences. believe it or not the life of a middle class black kid is still probably significantly different than that of a white middle class kid: no matter the exact family income, family dynamics, or place of living. i grew up in a disneyworld of liberal thought and though sometimes i hate to admit it, there was still racism there. furthermore, for medical schools in particular, most want to train a class of physicians that will serve the diverse needs of patients. while a preference toward minorities might be focused around patient racism and while there?s only a certain probability that minorities will go back into underserved communities, doctors are not in the business of undermining patient belief systems and probabilities are at the heart of medicine. aa needs work, it?s should not be a permanent program, but don?t ditch it yet, blah. blah. blah.
so i guess you can call me a racist. but i think we need to clarify what exactly that word means, and take one second to step back from the images of slavery and oppression and black struggle that are immediately called to mind. to be racist is to make distinctions based on race. i?m one of the most tolerant and open-minded people i know, but i?m sure, that at the very least i might occasionally make a sub-conscious distinction based on race. we can?t help it: we?re all products of a certain type of environment that has engrained some level of racism in all of us. it?s natural, and it?s not morally irreprehensible as long as we work through it and it isn't used to hurt people. so when we have a negative reaction toward "racism," i think we are reacting toward the negative effects of such actions. now i?m not a statistician but in reality i highly doubt whether or not removing aa would seriously depress the overall average gpa and mcats for entering med school classes. my guess would be that it would change by at most a point. the difference between "traditional racism" and aa is that urms stood to gain a lot through the ending of the former, but i think it?s fair to say that orms don?t really stand to gain that much from the destruction of aa.
now i know someone will say, "but if you?re taking one spot, you?re taking one spot." that's hurting someone, you're a hypocrite. however, calling it "hurting" is highly questionable. regardless, as i alluded to earlier, med schools have bigger problems to deal with than your dream of a slightly higher gpa or a slightly improved mcat score. maybe you can take care of that yourself. and then some will herald the importance of merit. well clearly there?s a cutoff when med schools think you can do the work (some orms get in with pretty poor numbers too)?after that, they have more important things to think about. and then there?s "that two wrongs don?t make a right thing." that?s bull****. this is the real world. the u.s. killing lots and lots of germans in world war II was right. in a capitalistic society, if there is a perceived net plus for one group, working toward bringing that net positive down to zero is right.
anyway, there will be a little over 400 black males in the next class of american medical schools- nationwide. i will be one of them. i will be at a top 10 school. for those who will be my classmates, i hope that you don?t assume i?m a dumb f--k with a low mcat score and crappy grades. that kind of attitude just encourages the abuse of aa by minorities. i know the importance of probabilities, but take the time to do a little research if you have the opportunity and someone might surprise you, in fact, statistically, someone will almost certainly surprise you. on the other hand for those who think that i?m taking one of their spots, i apologize. But you?re wrong.
oh, and I like kathleen edwards.
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subtilis, I think growing up in a liberal disneyworld has warped your mind into believing the cascade of pure bull**** you just posted. You present no arguement to account for the fact that one person is NECESSARILY being displaced by the process except to dismiss it.
To those of you that think that minorities are better equiped as doctors, you have to be out of your *#$! mind. If they came from a background that doesn't emphasize academic competition, how do you think they'll fair in medical school with EXTREME study schedules? When does AA end exactly? Getting into an undegrad institution? Getting in med school? Matching with a residency? Getting a job as a doctor? Malpractice suits? Is there some point where merit is valued over race? Perhaps one day they'll reduce the punishments of black doctors in malpractice suits because their background of police brutality caused the knife to slip.
Subtilis claims that he thinks it's unfair for people to assume that AA got him where he is. Well tough! You're not going to be able to change their minds by complaining about it. The most tolerant people I know can all think of anecdotal accounts of black students or hispanic students (esp at Berkeley) who got in with a low 3 GPA and 1000-1100 SAT scores. There will always be a bias against these students because almost everyone has heard about or witnessed students who were clearly unfit to be where they are. Why don't black leaders push for more funding for urban schools instead of allowing AA to make up for a horrible K-12 education? It's been 30 years since AA started and how much progress have we seen?
Why do we all assume that blacks have all been brutalized and subjected to a lifetime of racism? I was called a variety of racist names because of my Middle-Eastern background and got into several fights throughout elementary and middle school and I was nearly top of my class.
So far nobody has said anything about poor whites who go to crappy schools (i.e. poor areas in the South)? What about them? Do they start at the same educational level as everyone else?
What about Asians in the UC system? They make up roughly 40-45% of the students and they'll be negatively impacted by AA. Aren't they diverse enough? Don't they have a background that is quite different from the average white male?
I doubt any of the pro-AA whiners will be able to answer any of the real questions in this thread. It's the same rehashed arguements with no substance.
To those of you that think that minorities are better equiped as doctors, you have to be out of your *#$! mind. If they came from a background that doesn't emphasize academic competition, how do you think they'll fair in medical school with EXTREME study schedules? When does AA end exactly? Getting into an undegrad institution? Getting in med school? Matching with a residency? Getting a job as a doctor? Malpractice suits? Is there some point where merit is valued over race? Perhaps one day they'll reduce the punishments of black doctors in malpractice suits because their background of police brutality caused the knife to slip.
Subtilis claims that he thinks it's unfair for people to assume that AA got him where he is. Well tough! You're not going to be able to change their minds by complaining about it. The most tolerant people I know can all think of anecdotal accounts of black students or hispanic students (esp at Berkeley) who got in with a low 3 GPA and 1000-1100 SAT scores. There will always be a bias against these students because almost everyone has heard about or witnessed students who were clearly unfit to be where they are. Why don't black leaders push for more funding for urban schools instead of allowing AA to make up for a horrible K-12 education? It's been 30 years since AA started and how much progress have we seen?
Why do we all assume that blacks have all been brutalized and subjected to a lifetime of racism? I was called a variety of racist names because of my Middle-Eastern background and got into several fights throughout elementary and middle school and I was nearly top of my class.
So far nobody has said anything about poor whites who go to crappy schools (i.e. poor areas in the South)? What about them? Do they start at the same educational level as everyone else?
What about Asians in the UC system? They make up roughly 40-45% of the students and they'll be negatively impacted by AA. Aren't they diverse enough? Don't they have a background that is quite different from the average white male?
I doubt any of the pro-AA whiners will be able to answer any of the real questions in this thread. It's the same rehashed arguements with no substance.
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Wow, that's hard to believe. You... in a fight?
Here's one example of why highest grades and highest scores should not be the driving critieria behind the selection of doctors.
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It's funny to listen to those not in medical school claim to know for sure that a minority getting into medical school because of AA can't handle the material. I am here to tell everyone that numbers from the undergrad level is not a clear predicator of success in med school. Some of the highest achieving individuals from undergrad are struggling to barely pass their exams in med school while those with marginal numbers from undergrad are at the top of their class.
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Yes, medical schools should admit students with lower GPAs and MCATs then those with 4.0/45's..... because lower scores are the better indicator of medical school academic performance.
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You elitist fool. AA does not mean taking unqualified applicants, it merely is another consideration in the process. A minority student with a 0.1 GPA lower and a couple points lower on MCAT can do just as well in med school. No one is suggesting taking clearly unqualified people. AA is just trying to level the playing field.
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first of all, can we not take cheap shots, i mean i just want a constructive dialogue. i?m very open, and i?m only too happy to change my mind (it?d be actually easier in many ways for me to criticize aa after my success), but please, no random cheap shots.
i never said that ?minorities are better equiped as doctors.? i was making the point that numerous studies have shown that patient outcomes and overall satisfaction improves when certain minorities are treated by members of their own race. some of this is because doctors are racist. some of this is because patients are racist. that?s just the way it is, and med schools, not being vehicles for the destruction of racism, deal with it as best they can.
now garibaldo you also note that ?Subtilis claims that he thinks it's unfair for people to assume that AA got him where he is. Well tough! You're not going to be able to change their minds by complaining about it.? who said that i was complaining about it? people can think whatever they freakin want. i just wanted to make the point that it is completely ignorant to think that a black student in your med school class MUST have a lower gpa and mcat score than you. statistically, he probably does, but that doesn?t mean he didn?t destroy his mcats or have a 4.0 and it incorrect to assume that that wasn?t possible.
you also state that ?Why don't black leaders push for more funding for urban schools instead of allowing AA to make up for a horrible K-12 education?? i can?t come up with a black leader who doesn?t believe in this, so you?re going to have to explain that more. you also ask ?why do we all assume that blacks have all been brutalized and subjected to a lifetime of racism?? i don?t know anyone who believes this. i?m just saying that overall, racism is still a part of america. you also ask ?It?s been 30 years since AA started and how much progress have we seen?? thirty years ago there was almost nil representation of urms in institutes of higher learning and in professional careers. i don?t think i need to spell out how things have changed since then...and that being said i also see aa ending within the next generation. at least i?m hopeful that that can happen.
also, the reason that aa, specifically, doesn?t address the plights of poor whites is that it is meant to address inequalities brought about by racism. now i would totally support a preference system based on class to some extent as well, but that?s distinctly different. regardless, i strongly believe any system of preference should end with education, after that you necessarily limit the quality of the working force.
oh and at the beginning of your post you noted that one person is necessarily displaced. this is totally true. and if the person taking their spot is not qualified to do the work then they should be booted. but if they are, and the medical school feels that it can better serve it?s specific mission by allowing a candidate with worse standardized test scores or a lower gpa in, then clearly it should do that. it?s unfair that someone?s race privies them to certain unique experiences, but it?s also unfair that i can?t think like stephen hawking. the primary goal of medical schools is not to serve the interests of most of their applicants. their primary goal is to educate good doctors who will help to improve society.
anyway, you seem to treat this like this is some formalized debate or contest. i?m not trying to win anything here. i think there are problems with the current system (for example, the michigan system is ass). i want to work toward solutions.
i never said that ?minorities are better equiped as doctors.? i was making the point that numerous studies have shown that patient outcomes and overall satisfaction improves when certain minorities are treated by members of their own race. some of this is because doctors are racist. some of this is because patients are racist. that?s just the way it is, and med schools, not being vehicles for the destruction of racism, deal with it as best they can.
now garibaldo you also note that ?Subtilis claims that he thinks it's unfair for people to assume that AA got him where he is. Well tough! You're not going to be able to change their minds by complaining about it.? who said that i was complaining about it? people can think whatever they freakin want. i just wanted to make the point that it is completely ignorant to think that a black student in your med school class MUST have a lower gpa and mcat score than you. statistically, he probably does, but that doesn?t mean he didn?t destroy his mcats or have a 4.0 and it incorrect to assume that that wasn?t possible.
you also state that ?Why don't black leaders push for more funding for urban schools instead of allowing AA to make up for a horrible K-12 education?? i can?t come up with a black leader who doesn?t believe in this, so you?re going to have to explain that more. you also ask ?why do we all assume that blacks have all been brutalized and subjected to a lifetime of racism?? i don?t know anyone who believes this. i?m just saying that overall, racism is still a part of america. you also ask ?It?s been 30 years since AA started and how much progress have we seen?? thirty years ago there was almost nil representation of urms in institutes of higher learning and in professional careers. i don?t think i need to spell out how things have changed since then...and that being said i also see aa ending within the next generation. at least i?m hopeful that that can happen.
also, the reason that aa, specifically, doesn?t address the plights of poor whites is that it is meant to address inequalities brought about by racism. now i would totally support a preference system based on class to some extent as well, but that?s distinctly different. regardless, i strongly believe any system of preference should end with education, after that you necessarily limit the quality of the working force.
oh and at the beginning of your post you noted that one person is necessarily displaced. this is totally true. and if the person taking their spot is not qualified to do the work then they should be booted. but if they are, and the medical school feels that it can better serve it?s specific mission by allowing a candidate with worse standardized test scores or a lower gpa in, then clearly it should do that. it?s unfair that someone?s race privies them to certain unique experiences, but it?s also unfair that i can?t think like stephen hawking. the primary goal of medical schools is not to serve the interests of most of their applicants. their primary goal is to educate good doctors who will help to improve society.
anyway, you seem to treat this like this is some formalized debate or contest. i?m not trying to win anything here. i think there are problems with the current system (for example, the michigan system is ass). i want to work toward solutions.
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Why do you feel the need to have 2 points added to your MCAT and .1 added to your GPA?
What specific incidents in your life have caused you not to be able to study as much as your peers?
No, you do not want to level the playing field. You want a separate ballpark to play in.
What specific incidents in your life have caused you not to be able to study as much as your peers?
No, you do not want to level the playing field. You want a separate ballpark to play in.
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great questions ryo-ohki.
Why do you feel the need to have 2 points added to your MCAT and .1 added to your GPA?
personally, i don't feel the need. if you mean generally...well generally i think it's good for medicine. i'll refer you to the institute for healthcare improvement for more details.
What specific incidents in your life have caused you not to be able to study as much as your peers?
none that i can recollect. aa is not about making up for specific life incidents. it's affirmative action to fight against racist events when it comes time to start careers. like this:
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Midwest/01/14/name.bias.ap/index.html
that study that cnn quotes doesn't really affect me...but i think it's at least slightly relevant.
Why do you feel the need to have 2 points added to your MCAT and .1 added to your GPA?
personally, i don't feel the need. if you mean generally...well generally i think it's good for medicine. i'll refer you to the institute for healthcare improvement for more details.
What specific incidents in your life have caused you not to be able to study as much as your peers?
none that i can recollect. aa is not about making up for specific life incidents. it's affirmative action to fight against racist events when it comes time to start careers. like this:
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Midwest/01/14/name.bias.ap/index.html
that study that cnn quotes doesn't really affect me...but i think it's at least slightly relevant.
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Good lord, dear, I hope you can see the absurdity of your arguments here. How in the world can you logically defend the idea that marginal differences in standardized testing and grading somehow constitute the best, or even a defensible, way to select future physicians?
Female perspective, black perspective, hispanic perspective, non-traditional perspective, appalachian backwood perspective, muslim perspective, perspectives resulting from struggles with poverty, so on and so forth.....all of these are important and desirable in the medical community. Having been told by a male gynecologist that menstrual cramps were "all in my head" and that he had the scientific data to prove it, I was more than happy to take my business to the (back then) only female in town, who appropriately addressed the situation. When an elderly black woman came to our surgery clinic with a cancerous growth in her thyroid that needed immediate excision, the preppie resident who worked her up was impatient and condescending to the point that the patient was leaving AMA - against medical advice. The nurse asked me to intervene, and because I was able to draw on multiple factors in my background to connect with her - my understanding of her skepticism of the medical community, of her need to delay a final decision before speaking to her minister (a common request in the African American community), and her concerns about the impact of treatment on her financial situation - I was able to convince her to undergo the needed surgery, and very likely saved her life. Examples such as these are endless...
Having representatives for as many different peoples as possible in the medical community is an important, effective, and worthwhile goal. It's good that admission committees recognize and attend to this philosophy.
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I've seen this rhetoric from you alot....and I've always wondered...what school does this? Even that Michigan article you linked to a few posts back didn't say anything about that. So what are you talking about when you say this?
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<b>"A minority student with a 0.1 GPA lower and a couple points lower on MCAT can do just as well in med school."</b>
I was responding to this quote.
Race in today's medical school admissions is worth a lot more then a few points, of course.
I was responding to this quote.
Race in today's medical school admissions is worth a lot more then a few points, of course.
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yeah...but knowing that admissions to med school is more than a numbers game...how can you really justify saying this? It just seems like people who don't know much about AA will see those comments and take that as a true representation of what it is....and it's not really about automatically adding certain number of points to a person's score.
It's probably a minor point, but that's just always bothered me really.
It's probably a minor point, but that's just always bothered me really.
