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Byu

Discussion in 'Medical Students - MD' started by stwei, Mar 28, 2004.

  1. stwei

    stwei Senior Member
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    Does anyone have any info about BYU, the students, faculty and the environment there in general- i.e what's with BYU's undergrad admission rates? They claim to accept 80% of their applicants, yet the avg. gpa is a 3.79?
    What would scare applicants with a lower gpa from applying?
    Also, I was somewhat shocked by the following url:
    http://healthpro.byu.edu/biol339.asp. What do you think about the whole issue - the sign-in? Are students really happy there or is it just another big bureaucracy that seeks to whip its loyal subjects into submission? How is competition an issue there?

    Thanks so much in advance for answering my barrage of questions.:wow:
     
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  3. Seaglass

    Seaglass Quantum Member
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    BYU is a mormon school, and the students are primarily mormons. That's probably why they accept such a high percentage of applicants (the overall applicant pool is small).

    C
     
  4. deaftoan

    deaftoan Member
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    maybe i'm not understanding your question correctly, but that seems very normal to me. any college class i've been in with less than 30 people has had roll call, with the teacher calling off names instead of having people sign-in. i would have been very grateful if there was a class like this at my undergrad. what exactly did you find shocking? this class isn't mandatory is it?
     
  5. stwei

    stwei Senior Member
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    Thanks for the reply. Please don't feel offended, since I was really surprised by the early morning class at 7 a.m. Are there more classes there like that? From what I understand, BYU accepts non-mormons as well. What are some good and bad things about the administration and students there?
     
  6. As a former Mormon who's sister flunked out of BYU, I have a somewhat unique perspective of this school;)

    Here's just a taste of some of the rules:

    Want to grow a beard? You'd better have acne or be doing a play. Even then you have to obtain a "beard card" which must be shown to any administrator that asks.

    You can only live in BYU approved housing, which is monitored by the BYU Gestapo. No visitors of the opposite sex after certain times (I think it's 10p), and if you do have a guest, you have to have your door open and 1 foot on the ground at any given time. You think I'm joking, but that's an actual rule.

    If you go there as a non-mormon you will be hounded to join the church at every turn. While you are free not to do so, you will be excluded from almost any social activity until you do.

    That's just the tip of the iceberg as well. If you are interested, I have many other interesting stories.

    The curriculum there is great I'm told, but scary since religion classes are required for all majors. Also, Provo is a really scary town with a Pat Boonish quality to it.

    Beware! That's all this former mormon missionary can say.
     
  7. gizzdogg

    gizzdogg keeper of the three lions
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    i'd like to second all of this. i went to byu as well, and if you're a devout mormon, it can be a great place to go to school. I think if you're a white, middle to upper-class, conservative mormon who is ready to get married (yes, there is a palpable pressure for students to get married there), it's probably the place for you. But if you're outside this norm, the uniformity can be suffocating at times. I had three siblings attend there as well, and we all did our best to transfer out as soon as possible.

    a byu education is solid, but nothing that can't be found at good state school (in addition to byu, i attended a no-name state school and a top ten state school). and if you're interested in a strong research-oriented science program like i was, you'd better look elsewhere. i tried hard for a semester to get into a lab there. Ultimately I failed getting hired on among the few labs there. When i transferred to a research university, i secured a lab position in the first hour of trying. take my experience however you'd like.

    if you want to hear of some more personal experiences, feel free to pm me.
     
  8. japhy

    japhy Ski Bum
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    while byu has decent academic credentials, the factors that others have raised stifle the learning environment in the classroom. professors have been fired for speaking their minds, there is truly a lack of academic freedom at byu.

    as someone who grew up in provo, i would caution you that there is no nightlife to speak of. i love to ski, hike, bike, etc and there are plenty of easily accessible trails and mountains to play on. but if you want to go to a club or a bar, good luck.

    also, as others have said, you will be excluded if you are not mormon. but on the plus side, there are some beautiful women at byu who will go to great lengths to convert you.
     
  9. themann

    themann Member
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    I don't know guys, I go to BYU and I don't thinks its near as bad as your making it out to be. I have done research for the last two years here and from what I can tell anyone who really wants to do research can. On the other hand it is not a powerhouse research institution. It is a mormon school, and most people are pretty active with the religion. I have some friends that aren't members and from what they have told me they don't feel ostracized because of it. Religion classes are pretty easy and layed back. You don't have to take classes that are heavy in mormon doctrine, you can take all kinds of different classes that fall under the religion requirement. There are a lot of rules, but for the most part I have never ran into the so-called "gestapo." The atmosphere is nice and friendly. Most people are really zealous about their school work, so night life and socializing can suffer. Provo is definetly not great for nightlife stuff, but there is plenty of hiking, skiing, fishing, etc. Bottom line is that BYU provides a great education, and their acceptance to medical school is great. It would be worth checking out. PM me if you have any questions.
     
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  10. japhy

    japhy Ski Bum
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    I stand by my assertion that BYU lacks academic freedom and therefore the education you receive is sub-standard. How can professors or students talk openly on any subject when there is a constant worry about being turned in to the Honors department. The American Association of University Professors has censured BYU for its distressingly poor record of maintaining academic freedom.

    One of my best friends from home is routinely not allowed to take exams because he FAILED TO SHAVE. That's ridiculous. Of course BYU is a religious school and they can make whatever rules they want. They do place their students well in getting into med school.

    But do you really want to go to a school where sex drugs and rock and roll are not allowed? I mean what would college be without such excesses?
     
  11. mightymo

    mightymo Member
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    Good thing there are other schools out there where sex, drugs, and rock and roll are more prevalent if that's what floats your boat. Hey japhy, everybody knows BYU is a religious school with a strict honor code. We also realize you don't like BYU - if you have something to say about the premed program that's great, otherwise zip it (credit Dr. Evil).
     
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  12. Forget sex, drugs and rock and roll, how about just being able to speak your mind??

    I recently took a "science and theology" class here at my U, and the teacher had the audacity to suggest that the bible maybe shouldn't be read literally and was mostly hebrew cultural metaphor.

    I'd love to see what happened to a prof. at BYU who made the same assertion. He'd be kicked out so fast you could feel the wind from here.

    Good record and curriculum aside, I just wouldn't want to go to a school that told me how to think. I guess that's why I stopped attending church after my mission.....I had a dangerous case of independent thought.
     
  13. japhy

    japhy Ski Bum
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    Of course I realize BYU is a religious school, I was being way over the top with the sex and drugs reference. If I offended you I am sorry, but I think that getianshi hit the nail on the head. You are not getting a good education at BYU for the reason that you are not taught how to think critically nor are you exposed to a range of ideas. There are strict prohibitions on what can and cannot be taught. Back in 94 or 95, 4 or 5 BYU professors were fired for having the audacity to speak their minds. Tenure be damned!

    If you want to go to a program that denies you the right to learn a mutlitude of ideas and philosphies, so be it. If you want to go to a school that AAUP has censured, again, it is your choice.

    I go to med school with many students from BYU. They are all very nice people. They all deserve to be in med school. They all liked BYU and thought highly of the pre-med program. They work hard and do well in class. If you want to subject yourself to the honor code, then go for it. By no means am I claiming that BYU is a crappy institution, it isn't. But there are some notable shortcomings in its teaching, both in who the university hires and how they teach.

    Quote "The use of the bathroom area by members of the opposite sex is not appropriate unless emergency or civility dictate otherwise; and then only if the safety, privacy and sensitivity of other residents are not jeopardized."

    Men are expected to be clean shaven; beards are not acceptable.

    http://campuslife.byu.edu/HONORCODE/honor_code.htm
     
  14. gsx56

    gsx56 Member
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    This sounds absolutely frightening.


     
  15. elperro

    elperro Member
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    I graduated from BYU in 2002 and am now in med school. There are about 20 mormon students in my class. The truth is that medical schools like BYU students. They are disciplined, hard working, respectable, and well-liked for the most part. Granted there are exceptions, i.e. the isolationists who don't interact with non-mormons.
    BYU provided me a strong education. In rebuttal to the comment that said something like "who would want to go to a school where they tell you how to think. . ." What do you think your professor is doing when he/she tell you their respective opinion? Nobody ever censured me for being proactive in seeking new viewpoints and concepts. I was never reported to the honor code office for checking out books by anti-mormons and philosophers.
    As far as research goes, BYU is not known for being a research school. However, it is moving in that direction. For example, the discovery of COX2 was made by a BYU professor. I was able to work in a lab for three years. I owe much of my success to motivating and successful professors.
    Lastly, the honor code. If you can't live it, if you lack discipline, go elsewhere. I have a goatee now, who cares that I couldn't grow it there. Don't get caught up on trivial issues. Just go there, do well, and you will get into medical school.
     
  16. I'm not disputing that you got a strong education, I know BYU has some great programs and have plenty of friends that graduated from there. But, in the real world people like to do what they want and think and say what they want. Discipline? Is that what they call it now? You can't honestly say that if you went to the middle of the BYU campus and said "the Book of Mormon is a bunch of crap" you wouldn't be censured. But you know what? I can do that at my campus if I so choose. I can say that about anything I want in fact and people may call me an idiot, sure, but I won't be written up for violating some pathetic "honor code."

    BYU, not unlike the mormon missionary training center, is designed around the philosophy that everyone should come out molded into a perfect happy little mormon. I went through the MTC so I think I would know. If that's your thing, so be it. For me though, I'd like to have a little wiggle room when it comes to having girls in my dorm room during the night.

    I think most people would agree that these issues are not "trivial," in fact they are quite important. I don't have a beard, I don't have body piercings, I don't smoke, but it's nice to know that I COULD do those things if I so desired.

    And I love tea. I couldn't even drink a nice cup of milk tea if I went to BYU, that's just sad.

    In any case, I know plenty of mormons that fit right in at BYU and good for them. For the rest of the world though, find a place where you can express yourself without fear of expulsion.

    Oh, and how many of those 20 med students are women? With BYU's marriage and baby-making rate, I'd be interested to know.
     
  17. TysonCook

    TysonCook Senior Member
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    I'm from Sandy and went to the U for undergrad. If you are not a "Utah Mormon", or a pretty "into it" mormon, BYU is not for you. I won't lie (and I being a non-LDS in very LDS family), it is not a place that one goes for a "college experience". There is no doubt that BYU is a fantastic institution that will provide anyone with a great education, but all in all, I would never ever ever go there if I was not a very faithful mormon.

    Great school, but I'll reaffirm what has been posted earlier. Your instructors are censured, you can get in trouble for having SI's swimsuit issue, and there is a Gestapo running around.

    Med school is for strict regimens, undergrad is for having fun and getting the "college experience". Skip it if you have any question at all about it.
     
  18. gizzdogg

    gizzdogg keeper of the three lions
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    i really think both sides can agree on the following.

    byu offers a solid education.

    there are rules restricting freedom of expression that are suffocating to some, trivial to others

    you WILL have to take mormon religion classes. Last time i checked, book of mormon, etc classes are mandatory for all. Other mandatory religion requirements can be filled with more religiously mainstream courses.

    BYU has some research opportunities, but it is not a research university.

    BYU has a very good track record of placing its students in medical schools.

    Whether you are mormon or not, you'd probably better be religious. Even non-mormons have to attend a church regularly while attending byu.

    BYU is very inexpensive compared to other private schools. It's costs are more on par with state schools.

    My advice to the OP is to weigh these issues carefully. If you would be comfortable receiving a fine education in a very conservative, homogenous but friendly environment, you would do well to consider byu further. What's most important about choosing an undergrad (and ultimately getting into medical school) is making sure that one can thrive at the institution in question. i, for one, did fit the mold at byu, and while i succeeded academically while i was there, i ultimately needed a more open-minded and secular school for robust, well-rounded, intellectual growth.
     
  19. stwei

    stwei Senior Member
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    The tuition seems extremely reasonable, but I wonder whether they use that as an excuse to milk certain people they don't like -i.e. so they fail certain classes and have to repeat a whole year or so. What is the attrition rate there and how are minorities (if any) treated?
     
  20. japhy

    japhy Ski Bum
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    I know a handful of women in med school who have come out of BYU. I have to say they are pretty damn amazing. The stories they tell are horrific though. Few people support them, many tell them they should be married and having children rather than being selfish and pursuing a career. These women were certainly some of the best students I went to school with.

    BYU has roughly 12% minority students. Quite a few pacific islanders. You should know that Utah is WHITE. It is slowly changing, as there are many more hispanics moving into the state.

    Besides few research opportunities, the other complaint people have in lack of clinical exposure. Whereas, the U. has a med school and doctors willing to let premeds shadow, there are only community hopsitals in Utah County. Not that it isn't possible to set something up, but there are more obstacles. If you want I could ask a few of my friends from BYU if you could get in touch with them. They are all 3rd years and busy as hell, but they might be willing.
     
  21. Cougarblue

    Cougarblue Member
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    I am constantly amazed that any thread mentioning BYU or Mormons immediately brings about such a negative response from a disaffected few. I graduated from BYU, but also attended the University of Utah as both an undergraduate and graduate. Currently, I am a medical student at the University of Virginia. There are to the best of my knowledge 14 or 15 BYU grads in classes MS I-IV at UVA. The UVA fourth years from BYU matched in Optho(1), Derm(1), General Surgery(1), Ortho(1), Rads(1), and Family Practice(1). For my part, I loved my time at BYU. The undergrad education which I received was outstanding. My Cell Biology and Histology courses at BYU were thorough enough that I seldom studied for either class here at UVA, and consistenly scored in the mid to high 90s on my exams. BYU places a huge number of students in med school each year. In fact, the year I graduated, BYU placed nearly double (around 280 if I remember correctly) the number of students as the University of Utah, and this was not exclusively in the "lower tier" medical schools. While interviewing at Baylor, six of the approximately fifty applicants in my interview group were from BYU. This was in early September of 2002. Compare that number to two from Harvard, two from Columbia, and one from Yale. Am I trying to say that BYU is a better school than the aforementioned Ivy league universities? Absolutely not. I am simply stating the fact that BYU produces excellent medical school applicants, and that your undergraduate education will be outstanding.

    BYU is a private university. Each student, (Yes, even non-mormons), is funded to a large degree by members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This is the reason that tuition for both Mormon and Non-mormon students is exceptional when compared to other private schools of BYU's caliber. BYU does not try to hide its honor code. It is a huge part of the application. The fact is, if you choose to go to BYU, you know well in advance what is expected of you, and you, by your own free will agree to live by those standards. Trust me, there was no "gestapo" member standing in my parents living room when I was filling out my undergraduate application. Was it a pain carrying a razor and shaving cream with me to the testing center, because my facial hair grows quickly? Absolutely, but I knew when I accepted my place at BYU that being clean shaven was the rule unless one has a religious belief or medical condition which precludes it.

    BYU is not just a place for "Utah mormons." If you actually checked the admissions stats, you would discover that the majority of students (77%) at BYU are not from Utah. As for the previous poster's comment about denouncing or destroying the Book of Mormon on campus; Of couse one would face a large group of unhappy people and possible disciplinary action. BYU, as a private entity has the right to enforce certain standards on its property. How do you think a student burning the pope in effigy would go over at Notre Dame? How about a student decrying evangelical christianity at Oral Roberts or Liberty? BYU is not unique in its stance.

    Bottom line to the original poster. BYU is an outstanding place for your undergraduate education. You will graduate well prepared for medical school if you work hard. Every medical school I had contact with (the exception being Yale, because I had the audacity to attend a "gasp," junior college before BYU), including the upper tier schools always had positive things to say about BYU and BYU grads. Whether you are a Mormon or not, check out the honor code well in advance so that you know what you are agreeing to. BYU students for the most part are very friendly and accepting. If beer pong or late night rendez-vous with anyone other than your husband or wife are your things, then you are probably best served by looking elsewhere for a university.

    To some of the other posters. If you agreed to the honor code when you applied to BYU, do not whine about not being able to have women in your dorm room after 10 o'clock or having to shave in order to take a test. You agreed to commit to a certain lifestyle. If you don't like the honor code, and many people, yes, even good Mormons don't, there are plenty of schools out there for you. Is BYU perfect? No. Are there a few jerks who live in the dark ages, and prove it by trying to convince women not to go into careers like medicine? Yes. Are the jerks the minority? Yes. Be objective. Everyone's opinion is welcome, but blind bias based on a few anectdotal events do not paint a representative picture of what it is like to attend BYU.
     
  22. Cougarblue

    Cougarblue Member
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    My apologies to Tysoncook, I misread part of your post about "Utah mormons," being the only ones who should attend BYU. Sorry about that.
     
  23. japhy

    japhy Ski Bum
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    I am not denying that BYU produces great grads, prepared for med school. However, cougarblue, you failed to address the charge that there is a lack of academic freedom at your alma mater. This is a serious concern. How can you argue that you get a great education when your professors are limited by what they can say and what they can teach?
     
  24. themann

    themann Member
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    This academic freedom thing is such a slippery term that everyone likes to throw around. We learn from the same textbooks and are taught the same material as anyone else. My biology, chemistry, and physics classes all cover the same stuff anyone else covers. We are taught to think critically, and apply the scientific method in everything we do. Now of course our religion classes follow mormon doctrine, but that is to be expected. I guess I just don't understand what you mean...
     
  25. lsufreak

    lsufreak New Member

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    Enough lurking for me. As a gay premed, this topic is very interesting. This thread brings to mind a documentary i saw a while back.


    http://www.oberlin.edu/stupub/ocreview/archives/2003.04.25/news/article4.htm

    also...

    "We do not intend to admit to our campus any homosexuals. If any of you have this tendency and have not completely abandoned it, may I suggest that you leave the university immediately after this assembly.... We do not want others on this campus to be contaminated by your presence." Ernest Wilkinson, president of Brigham Young University, in a 1965 lecture to the BYU student body, titled: "Make Honor your Standard."


    I've always wondered if there is any truth to this. Do BYU police (I guess what previous posters have referred to as the Gestapo) still crack down on homosexuals like this? And what is the connection between heterosexuality and honor? I wonder what BYU premeds think about this. Do they support the use of treatment that has no scientific basis to "cure" homosexuality? Related question: is U. of Utah medical school gay friendly?
     
  26. japhy

    japhy Ski Bum
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    The issue of academic freedom may not be as apparent in the sciences. However, ask your administration why it fired the following professors: English professors Cecelia Konchar Farr and Gail Turley Houston and anthropology professor David Knowlton, and English teacher Brian Evenson. Most of this happened in the early '90's. They were all fired because BYU did not like what they were teaching. Many of the English professors were feminists and challenged the traditional patriarchy within the church. At the university level, this discussion should be encouraged and all viewpoints being able to contribute to the discussion. However, at BYU that is not the case. These professors were fired for their teachings, something that is unheard of at most major universities.

    Further, one of my good friends taught for many years at BYU. However, once the administration discovered he was gay he was asked to leave. This was only 3 years ago. I understand that the mormon church does not condone homosexuality. This does not entail that they should be able to fire, or encourage an individual to leave, because of his or her sexuality.
     
  27. japhy

    japhy Ski Bum
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    Here is a quote from BYU's AAUP chapter citing their concerns with academic freedom:

    Faculty are currently protesting this narrowing of limits on speech and behavior. On March 21, 1996, the BYU chapter of the American Association of University Professors submitted a statement to BYU's accreditation team detailing events that appear to compromise academic freedom, including the following general conclusion:

    As things now stand, the administration can, on an ad hoc basis and without accountability, take action on any faculty member it wishes simply by saying that the faculty member's teaching or writing is contrary to the interests of the church. Few, if any, of us want to harm the church. And, guided by our religious convictions, most of us exercise self-restraint in what we profess. Still, if we are to flourish, we must have the freedom to think, to probe, to question. When we take steps seriously to limit that inquiry we cease to be a university. And when faculty members must constantly second-guess whether their work will pass administrative muster, they cease to be scholars."

    The authors of the AAUP report stress that what they are after is "the kind of open and productive criticism and argumentation that foster good thinking and moral decision making" This, they argue, must include the freedom to discuss policies without constant fear of being branded "advocates of the adversary."


    "Thus Elder Boyd Packer, who said in a speech on May 18, 1993, that the three great enemies of Mormonism were feminists, homosexuals, and intellectuals has had a powerful influence. In 1993 he was still a member of BYU board of trustees."


    "Nor are faculty currently free to invite chosen visitors to campus. MacArthur Fellow, Pulitzer Prize winner, Harvard professor of history, and Mormon Laurel Thatcher Ulrich was declared unfit to give the keynote address at the 1993 BYU Women's Conference-with no explanation and no opportunity for discussion-and has not been allowed to speak on campus since."

    Scott Abbott is a well-regarded scholar of German Romanticism. IN 1992 he wrote an article called "One Lord, One Faith, Two Universities: Tensions between `Religion' and `Thought' at BYU.' Abbott denies that academic excellence is subversive of religious loyalty, and questions Packer's strong opposition between reason and "the workings of the spirit" Abbott argues that it is through an aggressive assertion of the connections between reason and faith that BYU can best retain a distinctive identity in a secular world. In particular, he questions intense scrutiny that faculty encounter when they want to write on Mormon history or on contemporary Mormon life. For this statement-which resembles the orthodox Roman Catholic line on academic freedom-Abbott's "Temple recommend" (official certification of worthiness to enter the Temple) was removed, and his promotion from tenured associate to full professor was denied.

    All of these quotes are from Martha Nussbaum's book, Cultivating Humanity. She is a noted philosopher and scholar currently at U of Chicago.
     
  28. Word......

    Of course med schools like BYU graduates, because for the most part they've had unique life experiences, ie a mormon mission. 2 years, usually abroad, coming back fluent in another language and learning self-reliance? Sounds like cool things that would make anyone's application stand out.

    That includes my own. Of course I put my mission experience on my application, had to explain those 2 years somehow. However, I didn't go to BYU and I made sure that each of my interviewers knew that I wasn't practicing in the LDS faith anymore.

    And you know what? I got admitted to a number of top 10 schools.

    I would argue that going to BYU is hardly what makes an applicant successful. Rather it is going on the mission, which most people coming from BYU have done.

    and kudos to female med students from BYU, that's just hardcore. To say that people who encourage women not to have careers in the mormon church are a minority is a complete farce. The leaders of the mormon church constantly spout that a woman's place is in the home and all of the career-driven women I knew when I still went to church were complete outcasts.

    Just a few things to think about.
     
  29. themann

    themann Member
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    Again, this BYU police/gestapo does not exist as any formal entity that I have ever seen or heard rumor of... Now of course we do have BYU police that give parking tickets and the like, but they are not involved in honor code violations. Thanks for clarifying what you mean by "academic freedom" Japhy.
     
  30. japhy

    japhy Ski Bum
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    themann,

    no problem, i only remember it being such an issue because i went to high school at provo high in the early 90's and thus, most of my classmates went to byu. again i don't think this is an issue that will be problematic in many of the classes one takes to get into med school. i just wanted to make sure that people were aware of the issue.

    as far as the gestapo thing goes, that is a little much. i have only heard anecdotal evidence of students turning each other in for honor code violations (which seems to contradict the whole notion of an honor code) but they are only that, anecdotes.

    if you want to go to a university where the students are modest, committed to schooling and religious, byu is the palce for you utah is a beautiful state and there are tons of outdoor recreation activites literally minutes from your front door.
     
  31. Cougarblue

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    Japhy, you make valid points. I am not suggesting that some form of censorship does not exist. What I am saying is that faculty who are hired and accept employment at BYU know in advance that certain guidelines must be followed during their tenure. I am not familiar with all of the faculty cases which you cited, but in the past the majority of those who have been dismissed from BYU were fired due to their public disputation of beliefs which are central tenets of the LDS church. BYU, as a private institution, has the right to dismiss employees whose conduct they consider to be a detriment to the success of the institution as a whole. I would expect that a similar result would occur if a faculty member at Notre Dame were to make inflammatory comments regarding Roman Catholic canon. Let's not pretend that censorship only exists at religious universities. In our current era of all things PC, I am sure that there are certain controversial subjects which are considered taboo by administrators at many universities which are not affiliated with a particular religion.

    Getianshi, I wholeheartedly agree that serving a mission adds a great deal to the medical school application. I would argue, however, that BYU does in fact, produce excellent candidates by the education which it provides. Applicants from BYU typically have a mean MCAT which is well above the national average, and while I realize that this is anecdotal, the difficulty of course work at BYU has prepared me well for the courses which I am currently taking at UVA. The undergraduate and graduate courses which I took at the UofU were no where near as thorough or difficult. On the flip side, congratulations on your acceptance to "multiple top ten" med schools.

    Your comments show that you are obviously bitter towards the LDS church. I am sorry that you feel that way, but to attempt to attribute traits to the entire church and all of its members based upon your bias is unfair and incorrect. My mother is a college-educated Mormon woman, who raised six sons, cared for a husband who had many health difficulties, and still had a career for much of my childhood. I think that she would laugh at your assertion that she and women like her are outcasts in the LDS church. It is true that church leaders recommend that children should have a mother at home "if it is possible," but Church leaders absolutely have not discouraged women from obtaining an education. I would encourage you to read virtually any talk, in particular those from the last general conference, from Gordon B. Hinckley since he has been the president of the Church. He repeatedly has encouraged both women and men to obtain all of the education which they can. He has also repeatedly stated that in situations of necessity that women should be prepared to have successful careers. It is true that many men of the older generation are dinosaurs who believe that women should be "barefoot and pregnant," but these people exist across all religions. Do not attribute the belief that women should remain uneducated and in the home to all LDS men or to the church as a whole, because it simply is not true.
     
  32. Bitter, yeah probably, I guess maybe a little bit;)

    I am familiar with most of Hinckley's talks, I was still going to church just a few years ago after all and haven't been back from my mission that long. I guess it's the assertion that women should ONLY pursue a career so that when their husbands die they can take care of their kids that bothers me. ie, women "qualify in two vocations?that of homemaking, and that of preparing a living outside the home, if and when the occasion requires. A married woman may become a widow without warning?. Thus a woman may be under the necessity of earning her own living and helping to support her dependent children" (Ensign 7 [Mar. 1977]:59).

    Further:

    President Kimball declared: "Women are to take care of the family--the Lord has so stated--to be an assistant to the husband, to work with him, but not to earn the living, except in unusual circumstances. Men ought to be men indeed and earn the living under normal circumstances" (Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p. 318 ).

    President Kimball continues: "Too many mothers work away from home to furnish sweaters and music lessons and trips and fun for their children. Too many women spend their time in socializing, in politicking, in public services when they should be home to teach and train and receive and love their children into security" (Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p. 319).

    And again:

    The Lord clearly defined the roles of mothers and fathers in providing for and rearing a righteous posterity. In the beginning, Adam--not Eve--was instructed to earn the bread by the sweat of his brow. Contrary to conventional wisdom, a mother's calling is in the home, not in the market place. (President Ezra Taft Benson Fireside for Parents-22 February 1987)

    You can't deny that basically a woman is expected to stay at home unless there's something wrong with her husband. This has nothing to do with education, and I agree mormon women as a group are generally very well educated.

    My girlfriend also wants to be a doctor and I would never deny that opportunity to her or expect her to stay home and make babies for me. Do we want to have children? Sure. Will it be tough for 2 doctors to have kids? Sure, but certainly we can both pursue our interests.

    I guess I've just seen too many "bad apples" here. Too many people who get married within 3 weeks of meeting and then find out they hate their spouse and don't want to be with them but are afraid to do anything about it. Too many women who are smarter and harder working than their husbands, but can't pursue a career because their husbands won't let them.

    Maybe things are different in different places, but I see way too much of that here.

    I grew up a mormon, and I'm not saying this just out of bitterness. I have tons of friends who are members and most of them are really awesome people that don't take certain church doctrines too seriously.

    I guess it's a matter of perspective.
     
  33. Paws

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    Whoa, this is kind of scaring me ... I'm not homosexual but I am a supporter of women's equality (does that make me a 'feminist'? what exactly is a 'feminist'?) and I like to think I use my mind ...

    I like my LD friends alot, and I try to be respectful about them as much as I would anyone - and I think they're respectful and open towards me. But I am not able to be friends with everyone, and rigidity and intolerance anywhere freaks me out.

    I second the grief that LD women face in premed programs. I'd like to hear more from our silent female lurkers, because they have expressed terrific resistence, some of them and it has been hard. I give them alot of credit because they make great role models.

    And I think that Getianshi's support of his wife is awsome!! :) Two doctors in the family is great!! One guy I know (from Provo), his mother went back to medschool after having raised like, eight kids. His father is incredibly supportive and she's having a great time.
     
  34. kelenaf

    kelenaf Member
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    Hi! Am I a lurker? Hum... Maybe... I better add a little to this thread...

    I am LDS and I attended a state school on the east coast for undergrad. I was NEVER pressured by my friends at church, parents or bishop to NOT go to medical school.

    In fact, I received nothing but support (and an excellent LOR from my bishop!). The only negative sentiment I received was from my pre-med advisor (non-LDS), who upon realizing the rock on my finger was from my recent (at the time) engagement, asked me if I was 'actually going to wear the ring to an interview?'!!! Arg! Turned out to be a very unique aspect of my application that none of my fellow interviewees could relate to... but I digress...

    I have graduated and since moved. Where I live now (big metro area), there are many women at my church who are medical students, some from BYU, many from other schools. It was great to have their support as I went through the whole application process this year, and I was never once encouraged not to apply.

    Just one perspective... :)
     
  35. Congrats, it's good to hear a story like yours.

    I don't want it to sound like I am completely against the LDS church, I'm not. I'm just against the POTENTIAL for abuse and the general principles taught by the old white guys that run the show. I realize that most mormons don't really pay much attention to the crazier things which are taught by some GAs.

    Like most organized religion, the overall group of people are good, it's just that some of the things taught and practiced by the fringe members is bad.

    Best of luck to everyone out there, LDS or not in their med school endeavors!
     
  36. chiasm

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    If anybody is still reading this thread, I can second just about everything being said. Some of the approved housing is a little more traditional than others, though. A place I stayed at last summer had rules (such as no alcohol or drug use, no fraternization with members of the opposite sex in order to maintain BYU approved status) but didn't take any lengths whatsoever to enforce them. By and large, if you're in a sciency major it's all pretty secular apart from the 14 credits of Mormon doctrine credit they make you take (which was a nightmare). After that though, BYU is just a really quiet, highly academic school that should prepare anyone very well for professional schools, or even jobs out of college.
     
  37. 194342

    Physician 7+ Year Member

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    Thank you for assisting those people who had anxiously been waiting on an update over the past 8 years, I am sure they are very grateful.
     
  38. chiasm

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    I think it's pretty clear that I wasn't commenting for the benefit of the original posters.
     
  39. viper930

    viper930 Resident
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    Do you really get expelled from BYU for having sex? A Mormon classmate told me this right after he told me I was going to hell twice (for drinking coffee and utilizing internet pr0n).
     
  40. HomerJayBYU

    HomerJayBYU D'oh!
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    Extramarital sex is against BYU's honor code, but that doesn't necessarily mean you would get kicked out.

    The bigger issue I find with your classmate's statement is his apparently self-righteous attitude (which would be the "sin of pride" in Mormon-speak). Also, Mormons don't really believe in eternal Hell--just different levels of glory/paradise.
     
  41. BigBear123

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    Sorry for bumping this thread again, but it's funny. I've met quite a few BYU alums on the interview trail...not one, not ONE has been female. Pretty baffling if you ask me, considering that ~50% of applicants nationally are women.
     
  42. jpnmed

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    It's because in Mormon culture the women typically are advised to stay home and take care of the kids. You will find many female Mormon PAs who maybe wanted to be a doctor, but wanted a more family-friendly schedule.
     
  43. avegadro'sarse

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    Hi all! I'm a female BYU premed student. Just thought I'd throw my two cents in.

    Our statistics kind of suck. My classes are mostly male (the neuroscience major has a 70:30 male:female ratio) and the last time I attended the BYU premed club, I was one of two women in a room of thirty students. However, I've also received a lot of support from BYU men and women who've encouraged me to chase my dreams even when met with great odds. These professors and friends believed in me. Without them, I would not have found the confidence to pursue this career.

    For any fellow BYUers, organizations like the Association of Future Female Physicians and Anatomy Academy are really helpful! In fact, I'm now organizing an after-school version of Anatomy Academy marketed towards local 3rd-6th grade girls. I'm calling it "Mini Miss MD" and its basic goal is to get tiny females excited about medicine, health, anatomy, and their big futures. Hopefully this program will embolden capable young women to pursue careers in medicine. It'd sure be nice to see some changes around here.

    Hope this helps! Let me know if you want to get involved!
     

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