C6-7 quadriplegic scheduled for phaco/IOL

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alwaysfreezing

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Hey guys, I would like your opinion on a recent patient:

68 yo male with C6-7 quadriplegia (mva in the 90s) shows up on day of surgery for unilateral phaco/IOL. He has frequent severe muscle spasms involving his legs and torso despite being on several PO muscle relaxants, and the opthomalogist asked if we could give him "stronger relaxants so he won't move."

We typically do topical anesthesia plus or minus versed, and the surgeon takes 15-20 min per eye. I'm at a four OR community hospital, so not a lot of resources.

Thanks for your input.

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Hey guys, I would like your opinion on a recent patient:

68 yo male with C6-7 quadriplegia (mva in the 90s) shows up on day of surgery for unilateral phaco/IOL. He has severe muscle spasms despite being on several PO muscle relaxants, and the opthomalogist asked if we could give him "stronger relaxants so he won't move."

We typically do topical anesthesia plus or minus versed, and the surgeon takes 15-20 min per eye. I'm at a four OR community hospital, so not a lot of resources.

Thanks for your input.
Hospital ok.

Heck Outpatient stand a lone should be fine but the time to get patient dressed on the table may slow things down. So they should be the first or last patient of the day.
 
Hospital ok.

Heck Outpatient stand a lone should be fine but the time to get patient dressed on the table may slow things down. So they should be the first or last patient of the day.

Do him last...quick GA and done.
 
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I haven't done GA for quadriplegics before, and my concern for cardiopulmonary complications is based on what I've read.

1) Just how likely are you able to extubate a c6-7 quad in the OR? Is intubation/icu stay a more than likely reality?
2) If you are able to extubate in the OR, do you keep them overnight or send them home?
3) Are their BP really as labile as lit suggests?Would you use invasive monitoring even for a short case?
 
I haven't done GA for quadriplegics before, and my concern for cardiopulmonary complications is based on what I've read.

1) Just how likely are you able to extubate a c6-7 quad in the OR? Is intubation/icu stay a more than likely reality?
2) If you are able to extubate in the OR, do you keep them overnight or send them home?
3) Are their BP really as labile as lit suggests?Would you use invasive monitoring even for a short case?
You don't have to intubate him, just place an LMA and let him breath some vapor.
BP instability and sympathetic hyperreflexia are way over rated.
But If I were you I would tell the Ophthalmologist that this is not a case for the outpatient surgicenter and it would be better at the hospital, especially if you don't feel confident/ experienced enough to handle it.
 
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If the surgical field can't remain motionless under topical/light sedation then your only alternative is GA.

I would CONSIDER doing this at a surgicenter if basically the patient was "perfect" from a symptom standpoint: no pulmonary symptoms related to C6-7 quadriplegia (unlikely), can lie flat comfortably at baseline (unlikely), no recent pneumonia, etc.

ANYthing seems weird and you do it at a hospital with an adult ICU.
 
AD should not be an issue when the operation is above the level of the SCI. You should know this.
 
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Yea, not sure what the issue is. Autonomic dys/hyperflexia shouldn't be an issue since they are working on the eyeballs... unless they were planning on putting a foley in.....

How long does this ophtho expect this to take? Worst case GA with LMA. Also, love the ophtho asking for "stronger relaxants" so he doesn't move.

Now if this patient was pregnant, then I'd have more concerns...
 
Would the superstars be so kind and stop shaming people for asking questions? A lot of anesthesiology knowledge is experience (it cannot be learned just from books). So knowing the right answer doesn't necessarily say that you guys are better, just more experienced, or that you had better training (and better colleagues who helped you initially, in the real world). Plus a quadriplegic is an exotic patient, not B&B, and he asked pretty pertinent questions (except for not planning for an LMA). It's not like the OP gave the patient sux.

My solution would be to attempt sedation with carefully titrated good doses of midaz or precedex, on top of topical, ready to switch to GA-LMA if needed. I think that could take care of the spasms. Avoid propofol and anything that allows sudden (confused) wake up and movement (you want a groggy, slowly moving patient). And avoid too much sedation, because even snoring will disturb the surgical field. So if the spasms don't go away, just go to GA early. Immobilize the head generously with tape.
 
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I would talk to patient and observe for these spasms and how severe they are..more importantly ask him/her if they can lay still for 20 minutes. If they don't feel they can I would do GA also. Whether I'd do a TIVA or LMA/ETT would depend on the patients airway, overall size, GERD sx etc. These people should be either wide awake with minimal sedation or GA
I don't see why this patient can't be done at an ASC, but no other info is provided about comorbidities. I don't think his quadreplegia alone makes him unsuitable for ASC
 
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AD should not be an issue when the operation is above the level of the SCI. You should know this.
I sure hope the OP understands this.

But this isn't a crazy case. Any CA-3 could develop a plan for this case and carry it forward. Probably even a CA-2.
 
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Yea, not sure what the issue is. Autonomic dys/hyperflexia shouldn't be an issue since they are working on the eyeballs... unless they were planning on putting a foley in.....

How long does this ophtho expect this to take? Worst case GA with LMA. Also, love the ophtho asking for "stronger relaxants" so he doesn't move.

Now if this patient was pregnant, then I'd have more concerns...
What does a foley have to do with anything? I believe you are thinking about AD but tell me what you would do for this pt to prevent AD who is coming for a lower extremity procedure that lasts >1 hr? Don't tell me about your anesthetic.

Pregnant? This is a 68yo male quad. Come on man!
 
Plus a quadriplegic is an exotic patient, not B&B, and he asked pretty pertinent questions (except for not planning for an LMA).

I kind of agree and kind of disagree. On one hand I agree ridiculing a question is inappropriate. On the other hand, sure a quad for a cataract isn't a totally bread and butter patient, I mean it isn't an ASA 1 19 year old having a knee scope sort of case, but let's be honest that it also isn't some crazy board question type patient either. I mean it's kind of basic stuff that should take a BC anesthesiologist about 10 or 15 seconds to come up with a safe plan for. This isn't some crazy syndrome you've never even heard, of let alone remember the details of. It isn't some horrible cardiac physiology or some catastrophic airway emergency.
 
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What does a foley have to do with anything? I believe you are thinking about AD but tell me what you would do for this pt to prevent AD who is coming for a lower extremity procedure that lasts >1 hr? Don't tell me about your anesthetic.

Pregnant? This is a 68yo male quad. Come on man!

I think the post was almost entirely sarcastic.
 
Would the superstars be so kind and stop shaming people for asking questions? A lot of anesthesiology knowledge is experience (it cannot be learned just from books). So knowing the right answer doesn't necessarily say that you guys are better, just more experienced, or that you had better training (and better colleagues who helped you initially, in the real world). Plus a quadriplegic is an exotic patient, not B&B, and he asked pretty pertinent questions (except for not planning for an LMA). It's not like the OP gave the patient sux.

I agree and I really try to not beat people down. But this is really an easy case. This scares me that someone is out there practicing alone and not sure how to do this safely. A forum is not where anyone should come to figure out how to do anesthesia. It's a place for "anesthesiologist" to discuss cases and learn from others, sure but not how to do anesthesia 101. It's a fine line maybe but the line is there. Which is why I asked if the OP was an anesthesiologist. I'm thinking NOT!
 
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Would the superstars be so kind and stop shaming people for asking questions? A lot of anesthesiology knowledge is experience (it cannot be learned just from books). So knowing the right answer doesn't necessarily say that you guys are better, just more experienced, or that you had better training (and better colleagues who helped you initially, in the real world). Plus a quadriplegic is an exotic patient, not B&B, and he asked pretty pertinent questions (except for not planning for an LMA). It's not like the OP gave the patient sux.

The only time I rag on people for asking questions is when they ask questions that are basic medical/anesthesia knowledge. A basic understanding of AD is ITE level stuff. No experience required. In fact, a recent grad should probably know more about it than a seasoned vet (and you don't have to go to a "top-tier" program to open an f'in book). The seasoned vet should be smart enough to quickly look it up before advertising their ignorance on the interwebs. I certainly don't know everything, but I know where to look up basic principles I've forgotten.

It just seems to me like there has been an abundance of "please do my homework for me" type questions of late, and I'm gonna call it like I see it. No one loves the clinical discussions on here more than me. I've said before probably 1/2 of my anesthetic knowledge I've gleaned from this forum over the years. That being said, there is a right and wrong way to ask questions and discuss things. Sorry if I violated your safe space :D.
 
See if the guy has any history of AD. cervical quad increases cv risk significantly. AD can occur from his leg being in the wrong position for 10 minutes. the questions are valid and as a physiatrist i would not want my SCI patient having elective surgery in an ASC, or with a crna.
 
See if the guy has any history of AD. cervical quad increases cv risk significantly. AD can occur from his leg being in the wrong position for 10 minutes. the questions are valid and as a physiatrist i would not want my SCI patient having elective surgery in an ASC, or with a crna.

no offense, but as a physiatrist you are not qualified to comment on the anesthetic plan or location or whether or not it was MD only or as part of an ACT model.

just my 2 cents as a board certified anesthesiologist and no offense intended (seriously). We just find that many physicians that don't work in an OR think they know what happens and think they know what an anesthetic does to a patient's physiology, but they really have absolutely no idea. I mean when you talk about leg positioning for a cataract case or CV risk for a catarct, that's kind of so far off from reality it's hard to comment on it.
 
Alwaysfreezing, I will back up some here. If this really was a case that you did and there was some sort of outcome that you wanted to discuss then I apologize. It's just the way you posted it made me think that you were asking us how to do this case.
So please clear the air so we can get to the case discussion.
 
Thanks FFP. I read, but need real life context. I don't mind a bit of ridicule as long as I learn something.

The patient has bad reflux, so I didn't consider LMA. His other comorbidities were mi and cva 3 years ago, mild dysphagia and some dysphonia (even though the patient said he's C6/7). I don't recall the other issues, it wasn't a recent case.

I understand he's not at risk of AD (autonomic dysreflexia) from the procedure. With cervical lesions and disconnected SNS, their vasomotor tone is low with low baseline systolic/diastolic, correct? If so, with our induction drugs, should I anticipate further drop in tone or conversely not much at all because it's already dilated? And I'm assuming I shouldn't anticipate heart rate compensation. So if these patients experience hypotension, do you give an anticholinergic in addition to an alpha agonist?

I thought with C6 lesions you lose the intercostals, which theoretically impairs ability for deep coughing and possible hypo ventilation. Does this not become an issue in actual practice?

Thanks.
 
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The case was referred out because I told the opthomologist I wasn't going to keep the patient paralyzed if we did GA, and since I couldnt give a 100% guarantee the patient wouldn't move, the surgeon cancelled the case.

I'm pretty conservative in my approach right now, and I posted this question because I was wondering if I was too conservative. Wanted to hear what other people would've done.
 
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Ok I'll bite.
Much like Colba550's plan. I would visit with the pt and determine his ability to lie still for 30 min. Let's assume he can't. I would also determine how severe the GERD is. I will frequently place an LMA in a pt with GERD.
How does he breathe lying flat? How does he sleep at night? In a recliner or on a bed or what? Does he have reflux at night?
I hope you see where I'm going. I want to put an LMA in this guy and get on with the day.
I would do him early in the day and watch him longer than usual.
I have had two AD cases that I can remember. One was post-OP.
BTW I prefer to call it autonomic hypereflexia not autonomic dysfunction (that's in diabetics). But who cares.

As far as the response during surgery. YES, his pressure will drop with heavy induction. So go lite and gentle. I would use propofol and if I'm not able to slip in an LMA yet then I would mask gently with Sevo.
 
The case was referred out because I told the opthomologist I wasn't going to keep the patient paralyzed if we did GA, and since I couldnt give a 100% guarantee the patient wouldn't move, the surgeon cancelled the case.

Also, my hospital is basically an ambulatory center with a hotel attached to it. Our icu has an intubated/ventilated patient once in a full blue moon, our RTs mainly set up CPAP for our overnight guests, and nothing exotic like neurologist, intensivist, cardiologist, pulmonologist.

I'm pretty conservative in my approach right now, and I posted this question because I was wondering if I was too conservative. Wanted to hear what other people would've done.
Too conservative in my opinion. You are at a hospital with an ICU. The chance of this case needing ICU is near zero.

To those that think I am piling on here, I'm just responding to the OP's comments. Seriously this case we now find out was actually scheduled at a hospital.
 
Ok I'll bite.
Much like Colba550's plan. I would visit with the pt and determine his ability to lie still for 30 min. Let's assume he can't. I would also determine how severe the GERD is. I will frequently place an LMA in a pt with GERD.
How does he breathe lying flat? How does he sleep at night? In a recliner or on a bed or what? Does he have reflux at night?
I hope you see where I'm going. I want to put an LMA in this guy and get on with the day.
I would do him early in the day and watch him longer than usual.
I have had two AD cases that I can remember. One was post-OP.
BTW I prefer to call it autonomic hypereflexia not autonomic dysfunction (that's in diabetics). But who cares.

As far as the response during surgery. YES, his pressure will drop with heavy induction. So go lite and gentle. I would use propofol and if I'm not able to slip in an LMA yet then I would mask gently with Sevo.

I was being completely facetious about the foley and the pregnancy... but it can be Hypereflexia or Dysreflexia (not dysfunction) depening on what text/source you read.

I too would do this case first, with an LMA unless this patient said that he literally vomits everytime he sleeps (which is never the case). Obviously, I would also ask about his respiratory function and his ability to lie flat. But overall, seems like a quick propofol, LMA, gas case.
 
Too conservative in my opinion. You are at a hospital with an ICU. The chance of this case needing ICU is near zero.

To those that think I am piling on here, I'm just responding to the OP's comments. Seriously this case we now find out was actually scheduled at a hospital.

Our icu is one in name only. They have maybe one ventilated patient a month, ship out any complicated pt to a larger hospital, no intensivists, and the fp folks covering it aren't comfortable doing icu. So my setting was part of the consideration on this case.
 
Our icu is one in name only. They have maybe one ventilated patient a month, ship out any complicated pt to a larger hospital, no intensivists, and the fp/im folks covering it aren't comfortable doing icu. So my setting was part of the consideration on this case.


Well if anything goes wrong, then that's their one vented patient for the month. And what's the worst thing that could happen to this guy? Residual weakness and a vent wean? Which is unlikely if you don't use roc. MAybe an aspiration, but that could happen to almost any patient. I know not every ICU in the country isn't the same, but this isn't the most complex patient in the world. Sure he might be at an increased risk for post-op ventilation, but that shouldn't prevent you from doing a case in a hospital.
 
Thanks FFP. I read, but need real life context. I don't mind a bit of ridicule as long as I learn something.

The patient has bad reflux, so I didn't consider LMA. His other comorbidities were mi and cva 3 years ago, mild dysphagia and some dysphonia (even though the patient said he's C6/7). I don't recall the other issues, it wasn't a recent case.

I understand he's not at risk of AD from the procedure. With cervical lesions and disconnected SNS, their vasomotor tone is low with low baseline systolic/diastolic, correct? If so, with our induction drugs, should I anticipate further drop in tone or conversely not much at all because it's already dilated? And I'm assuming I shouldn't anticipate heart rate compensation. So if these patients experience hypotension, do you give an anticholinergic in addition to an alpha agonist?

I thought with C6 lesions you lose the intercostals, which theoretically impairs ability for deep coughing and possible hypo ventilation. Does this not become an issue in actual practice?

Thanks.
This is a pretty old, but good, review on the subject: http://www.angelfire.com/hi5/anaesthesia/articles/chronicspinalcord.pdf . It will answer most of your questions. We are just Monday night quarterbacks here, so don't feel bad. It's different when one actually has to do the case with limited resources. I don't have much experience with quads myself, but I wouldn't be extremely concerned in a chronic one.

Yes, he is at risk for AD, which is not likely, based on the surgical site. I would expect it if he gets a lot of fluid while asleep and goes into bladder distention, but not otherwise. The patient should be able to tell you whether he has AD problems. Just be ready to treat it. I too would not count on respiratory accessory muscles. That's why I like the LMA solution more. Definitely more difficult to extubate with an ETT; worst case scenario, you reintubate (or extubate to an LMA first).

Regarding hypotension, I would fluid load him ahead of time. Even healthy patients don't have compensatory tachycardia with propofol, so I don't expect him to drop too much on induction. If concerned, give him some pressors to bring his BP up to 160 or so first, then induce (just watch for reflex bradycardia/asystole). That's what I do in septic patients in the ICU. Same goes for bradycardia pre-induction treated with glycopyrrolate. Set the NIBP to q1 min and you should be fine. I would expect even ephedrine to work, unless he has baseline bradycardia.

You probably know all this, you just need the courage to go ahead. I know how it feels in an ASC, especially if you don't have more experienced colleagues around. Better be safe than sorry, especially with an elective surgery.
 
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I agree and I really try to not beat people down. But this is really an easy case. This scares me that someone is out there practicing alone and not sure how to do this safely. A forum is not where anyone should come to figure out how to do anesthesia. It's a place for "anesthesiologist" to discuss cases and learn from others, sure but not how to do anesthesia 101. It's a fine line maybe but the line is there. Which is why I asked if the OP was an anesthesiologist. I'm thinking NOT!
It's possible. But it's a case residents can learn from. I don't think we have so many questions on the forum that we should discourage the easier ones.
 
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The only time I rag on people for asking questions is when they ask questions that are basic medical/anesthesia knowledge. A basic understanding of AD is ITE level stuff. No experience required. In fact, a recent grad should probably know more about it than a seasoned vet (and you don't have to go to a "top-tier" program to open an f'in book). The seasoned vet should be smart enough to quickly look it up before advertising their ignorance on the interwebs. I certainly don't know everything, but I know where to look up basic principles I've forgotten.

It just seems to me like there has been an abundance of "please do my homework for me" type questions of late, and I'm gonna call it like I see it. No one loves the clinical discussions on here more than me. I've said before probably 1/2 of my anesthetic knowledge I've gleaned from this forum over the years. That being said, there is a right and wrong way to ask questions and discuss things. Sorry if I violated your safe space :D.
Come on, dude, I hate "safe spaces" and whining. :p

I just had enough politics and am actually glad to see an anesthesia question even if, as you said, it's something one should be able to look up. And there were three of you criticizing the OP in consecutive posts.

And what if we have just helped a CRNA? Compared with the daily teaching we do in an ACT model, this is peanuts.
 
Yep we just assisted a crna.
I don't have any issue with that.
it's like giving someone a recipe vs teaching them how to cook. They must have the foundation to really know what to do with the recipe. Otherwise, it's just Applebee's.
 
Yes, you can and should do this case. There are many good ways.
To skip it in a hospital setting is super weak. Ask a more experienced person around if you are uncertain.
 
no offense, but as a physiatrist you are not qualified to comment on the anesthetic plan or location or whether or not it was MD only or as part of an ACT model.

just my 2 cents as a board certified anesthesiologist and no offense intended (seriously). We just find that many physicians that don't work in an OR think they know what happens and think they know what an anesthetic does to a patient's physiology, but they really have absolutely no idea. I mean when you talk about leg positioning for a cataract case or CV risk for a catarct, that's kind of so far off from reality it's hard to comment on it.

No. i dont know anes. But physiatry is the expert at SCI. you dont know what you dont know. a smart plan would include talking to his PMR doc for status on AD and ASIA score.
 
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No. i dont know anes. But physiatry is the expert at SCI. you dont know what you dont know. a smart plan would include talking to his PMR doc for status on AD and ASIA score.

I'm not sure what PMR could tell me that would be of use for an anesthetic. AD isn't esoteric stuff; the injury level that creates the risk, the usual triggers, its manifestation, its treatment ... all well understood. I had to Google the ASIA score and I don't see how it could possibly be of use to me either.

The only thing I'd do special for this patient is put him first on the schedule so he could be watched a little longer in PACU without extending the work day. Otherwise ... LMA vs GETA with little/no NDNMBD.



I've worked at little hospitals where I was surrounded by human beings wearing scrubs but still felt totally alone, and worried about what wacky thing some well-meaning nurse might get up to 3 minutes after I turned away. It's an environment that breeds paranoia and caution, sometimes too much of both. So I get where the OP is coming from.

WRT cancelling, unless it's an absolutely obvious call (e.g. NPO violation), I always make a point of talking to a colleague as a basic reality check. Sometimes all it takes is a few minutes of verbalizing your concerns to someone who knows anesthesia, and you realize it's not such a big deal after all.
 
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no offense, but as a physiatrist you are not qualified to comment on the anesthetic plan or location or whether or not it was MD only or as part of an ACT model.

just my 2 cents as a board certified anesthesiologist and no offense intended (seriously). We just find that many physicians that don't work in an OR think they know what happens and think they know what an anesthetic does to a patient's physiology, but they really have absolutely no idea. I mean when you talk about leg positioning for a cataract case or CV risk for a catarct, that's kind of so far off from reality it's hard to comment on it.

Anesthesia is your expertise, and we will always defer to you regarding that, but SCI is PM&R's and as lovelsteve points out, the smart thing (and the right thing for the patient) is to touch base with the patient's SCI physician. I'm a senior PM&R resident going into SCI and we get consulted all the time by anesthesia, surgery, medicine etc., about non-injury-related problems in an SCI patient. Now, you'll also be surprised at how much an SCI patient knows about their injury and potential complications, and as FFP points out, you can ask the patient a lot of these questions (by necessity, they learn to be their own experts as many of them live far away from SCI centers).

I can tell you right now that patient's SCI physician wants to know about things like this. We want to know when our patients are in the hospital for pneumonia, elective surgeries, or anything else, and to be consulted. Even if it's just an FYI--if you know what you're doing (and FFP seems to have a solid understanding of SCI physiology/risks here), then we still appreciate the head's up.
 
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As a general rule I do value input from other specialists, but I'm still not really seeing what PMR is going to be able to tell me that I wouldn't get from a couple of basic directed questions to the patient, that would be relevant to my anesthetic.

Educate me ... what sort of things might you tell me that would make me alter my anesthetic plan?

I'm not trying to be rude, but I sort of suspect that the kind of input I'd get from PMR would be along the lines of cardiology telling me to avoid hypoxia and hypotension.


Edit - To be more specific, cardiology might do a surface echo or cath and give me data; they might recommend diuresis or other optimization for a CHF patient prior to surgery. What data and/or optimization will PMR provide or do that is important or useful to me?
 
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As a general rule I do value input from other specialists, but I'm still not really seeing what PMR is going to be able to tell me that I wouldn't get from a couple of basic directed questions to the patient, that would be relevant to my anesthetic.

Educate me ... what sort of things might you tell me that would make me alter my anesthetic plan?

I'm not trying to be rude, but I sort of suspect that the kind of input I'd get from PMR would be along the lines of cardiology telling me to avoid hypoxia and hypotension.


Edit - To be more specific, cardiology might do a surface echo or cath and give me data; they might recommend diuresis or other optimization for a CHF patient prior to surgery. What data and/or optimization will PMR provide or do that is important or useful to me?

It depends on how much you know. The OP expressed uncertainty about AD, difficulty of extubating an SCI patient, so that's an attending I would hope would consult us (formally or curbside). FPP kind of covered most of the relevant physio (AD minimized, but still a possible risk and prepare to deal with it, pt likely not to have intercostal innervation, watch the bladder, etc.). That's an attending I think we wouldn't be as concerned about coming up with their own plan. If you understand the basics of SCI physio, then we're unlikely to be changing your plan, but the OP and some other posters above didn't express a full understanding of SCI (which is understandable--many aren't dealing with SCI patients). An attending who doesn't understand AD (and that leg positioning can cause it, among many other things) is someone who doesn't know what they don't know, and ideally they should be touching base with us (or a more experienced colleague). We're the experts on AD--we manage it on our floor all the time. We're always happy to educate our colleagues on it (just as I'm sure you're happy to educate us if we don't understand your anesthetic plan-assuming you've got the free time!)

Knowing the patient's full ASIA classification (A, B, C, D, or E) is helpful (the OP only mentions their level)--a patient with a C6 ASIA D SCI may be walking and coughing just fine--no need to worry about AD, loss of intercostals/accessory muscles, etc.

Knowing the patient's extubation history is also important, and that may be something the patient remembers--if not, it's worth asking the patient's SCI physician (who's essentially their PCP), if they have a hx of difficult extubations, aspirations, etc. It may or may not change your plan, but it helps you be more prepared.

Typically most of the consults we get are from the surgeons planning the procedure. Occasionally we hear from anesthesia (like with a pregnant SCI patient), but usually by then we've already given our opinion, and often the anesthesiologist already knows what to do.

The main risks are respiratory compromise, and risk of AD (most often bowel/bladder, but can result from wounds, positioning, a folded sheet under the patient's skin, etc.) The surgery itself, in this case, won't cause AD as the noxious stimulus is above the level of injury, but there are still some things to be aware of. Many SCI patients will have baseline bradycardia and hypotension, so a patient's baseline SBP is in the 80's, the 120's is AD.

Short story, most of what we provide is education (we're not going to do any tests), which can help prevent complications, and we're happy to do that for any SCI patient of ours that a provider isn't sure about how to treat.
 
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I didn't know what an ASIA score was either but now that I do I will forget about it most likely. That type of information I would have gained from my interview, in top of much more information. These pts are very good at describing their needs and issues. They know their past surgical history. They are some of the best pts to care for most often. They can be tricky but they are not what I would call difficult.
Sorry PMR guys, I would have never thought to call you. That's the surgeon's job usually anyway. It might cross my mind now in a very involved case but those are pretty rare in this population.
The one case were I had to deal with AD was in a bladder tumor case. The pt couldn't have a spinal for some reason (anticoagulated) and the surgeon said it was going to be real quick. It taught me a lot but it wasn't difficult. Stop the surgery for a minute, drain the bladder and get control of BP. If I remember right it wasn't that high but it was climbing and bradycardia was insuing. The pt was a cardiac pt as well (which was the reason a spinal wasn't an option, anticoagulants maybe stents). He was bleeding from the bladder tumor and we were going to carterize it. It was a busy case and taugh me a lot but that is the classic AD case.
But an eye case is a slam dunk with the eyes closed (pun intended)
 
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How many eye cases have you done personally, if I may ask, especially in an ASC? :whistle:

People think MAC is soooo easy, even if one does not have access to the airway. You just give some fentanyl, versed, maybe some propofol, and done. Except that the surgeon's instrument is in the patient's eye, and any inappropriate movement can cause retinal damage. It's rare, but it happens. And you really don't want to stop the surgery in the middle, especially if it's a retina case, because you f*cked up the anesthesia and you need to fix the airway stat.

I'm not saying it's rocket science. I just want you to stop looking down on people who don't do stuff comparable to open heart surgeries.
Seriously?
For your information we have two eye surgeons. Oh and no crna's. Haven't booted one to the hospital yet, 12+yrs. And neither have any of my partners.

What's so difficult about this case, FFP? Enlighten me, please?
 
Just for your peace of mind. The last one I did was an elderly gentleman wit severe Parkinson's. His tremor was uncontrollable.
Now, how do you want to proceed?
 
Seriously?
For your information we have two eye surgeons. Oh and no crna's. Haven't booted one to the hospital yet, 12+yrs. And neither have any of my partners.

What's so difficult about this case, FFP? Enlighten me, please?
The only difficult thing about the case is that the OP says he feels it's beyond his/her knowledge or expertise.
 
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Seriously?
For your information we have two eye surgeons. Oh and no crna's. Haven't booted one to the hospital yet, 12+yrs. And neither have any of my partners.

What's so difficult about this case, FFP? Enlighten me, please?

My .02.

I dont think this is a ridiculous question to ask from the OP. This is a guy going to an ASC (some can be very uptight) and is a very atypical customer and you dont want issues.

Agree with assess him in some way via preop visit or phone call to aide. If it sounds like he wont be able to tolerate the procedure under the usual recipe: 1-2mg of versed (this is how we do them not a true "mac" like a colo at all) then just do LMA. Unless the GERD was very severe I would do LMA. Maintain SV and pull out LMA.

Why are we talking about AD? There is topical local on the eye. We are concerned about it during induction/emergence? I guess... but in the end youd just do a normal induction and treat any hemodynamic issues that may arise as you would any other patient. I would not find input from PMR essential or useful here. The PMR poster above said the noxious stimulus is from the eye and thats fine since its above the level of the injury, but there is local in the eye so that is not even what the discussion is about. Difficult extubation? Prior Anesthetics? Of course Im going to gather that information myself..

Honestly if the surgeon really wants to do this case and I deem an LMA necessary, then yes I would do that at the ASC. If the patient is older and sick (as it seems he is) plus hes paraplegic and needs to travel with an entourage, take up peoples time and space in the ASC, take up peoples time with THIS exact discussion.. (ie is it safe what are the special considerations) and the surgeon has block time at the hospital and doesnt really care I would say do it at the hospital. This guy is going to be a PITA to the nursing staff, parking lot visitors, other patients, administrators, . Punt to the hospital if the surgeon does not care, how much reimbursement for how much hassle ?
 
Why are we talking about AD? There is topical local on the eye.
Well in theory any kind of stress can trigger AD, it's just that visceral stim below the lesion is most likely to trigger it. People with SCI can have AD events just from being out in the sun, i.e. temperature regulation can do it.

I've never seen it in person, but I think about it every time I have a patient with a high lesion.

I agree the risk is probably close to nil in this case.
 
Hoya, you are saying the same thing as the rest of us. Except, this was actually scheduled at a hospital.
 
Seriously?
For your information we have two eye surgeons. Oh and no crna's. Haven't booted one to the hospital yet, 12+yrs. And neither have any of my partners.

What's so difficult about this case, FFP? Enlighten me, please?
I deleted that post a good while ago because I really don't want to get into a who has bigger hands discussion. Too late. :)

Nothing really complicated about that case, nor about MAC, nor anesthesia for eye cases, except for the unexperienced provider who might start a thread like this. Why twist the knife, why look down on the person?

I think we have both made our respective points. Peace?
 
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