Cadilac CTS

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cfdavid

cfdavid

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cfdavid said:
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...g/entry_luxury/2009_cadillac_cts_cts_v_review

My dad has this car. He raves about it. Claims it's the best car he's ever driven.

For the attendings out there, if you're in the market, why not give this one a chance? Take it for a test drive, at least.

Personally, while I haven't driven it, it's a very classy and sporty looking vehicle. Great reviews to boot.
Click to expand...

I would love to buy American but here is the issue:
I think the American car industry needs to compete with foreign cars on one of 2 fronts:
Either offer better cars or significantly cheaper cars so people would start considering buying them
If they continue to offer equal or less quality at equal prices no one is going to buy them.
This car is $ 40,000 with the luxury package, you can buy a BMW 528I where the luxury stuff comes standard and maintenance is free for $44,000.
This car should be priced at $30,000 to sell but they won't do it, they'd rather "borrow" money from the tax payers.
 
CF, I know you are a real proponent of the American car industry but I personally feel they are a dying breed. They make crap IMHO. My mother-in-law drives a CTS and it rides like a $10,000 ford tempo thats 15 yrs old. It will get up and go but the suspension is crap. You feel every single flaw in the road. The dials are cheap plastic parts that don't last. The styling is good but thats it.

When I turn it on, it turns me off. It does not return the favor.

Plus my Tundra will spank it for $8000 less.
 
RxBoy said:
The great American free market. If you won't support us, we'll make you.
Click to expand...

Every car company in the world is receiving state funding right now. The Germans, Japanese et al have a much more "robust" history of subsidizing their industries than US companies. This is a fact.
 
Noyac said:
CF, I know you are a real proponent of the American car industry but I personally feel they are a dying breed. They make crap IMHO. My mother-in-law drives a CTS and it rides like a $10,000 ford tempo thats 15 yrs old. It will get up and go but the suspension is crap. You feel every single flaw in the road. The dials are cheap plastic parts that don't last. The styling is good but thats it.

When I turn it on, it turns me off. It does not return the favor.

Plus my Tundra will spank it for $8000 less.
Click to expand...

This is in direct contrast to what I've heard from others that have driven one.
 
Planktonmd said:
I would love to buy American but here is the issue:
I think the American car industry needs to compete with foreign cars on one of 2 fronts:
Either offer better cars or significantly cheaper cars so people would start considering buying them
If they continue to offer equal or less quality at equal prices no one is going to buy them.
This car is $ 40,000 with the luxury package, you can buy a BMW 528I where the luxury stuff comes standard and maintenance is free for $44,000.
This car should be priced at $30,000 to sell but they won't do it, they'd rather "borrow" money from the tax payers.
Click to expand...

At the very least, American auto companies have made huge in-roads in quality and affordability over the past decade. I'm hopeful that this trend will continue.

We just can't give up on our manufacturing base. We already make so little in this country. The U.S., through "free trade" has allowed so many industries to parish under the pressure of cheaper foreign labor. At least the German and Japanese governments support and cultivate their critical industries. They realize how important they are to their standards of living.

We'll (and I would argue already are begining to) pay a high price for no longer producing things in this country.

Guys, we can't all be doctors or investment bankers. We need industries (high paying manufacturing jobs, not "service" jobs) that can support and grow a middle class.
 
cfdavid said:
Guys, we can't all be doctors or investment bankers. We need industries (high paying manufacturing jobs, not "service" jobs) that can support and grow a middle class.
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I totally agree with you, but companies that are mismanaged need to fail. Thats the problem with the current economic status. We are fighting this recession instead of embracing it. We need to let mismanaged companies fail including chrysler or GM.

The UAW destroyed the concept of "hard working American". We became fat slobs demanding every benefit imaginable. If these companies fail, stronger more profitable companies will take their place. THey'll hire workers for less cash, and make cars people actually want. Thats the beauty of capitalism.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InWn8VMH2as[/YOUTUBE]

But back to your assertion... The new 09 CTS is indeed a very nice car, my sis has one. The navigation system and options are exceptional.
 
RxBoy said:
I totally agree with you, but companies that are mismanaged need to fail. Thats the problem with the current economic status. We are fighting this recession instead of embracing it. We need to let mismanaged companies fail including chrysler or GM.

The UAW destroyed the concept of "hard working American". We became fat slobs demanding every benefit imaginable. If these companies fail, stronger more profitable companies will take their place. THey'll hire workers for less cash, and make cars people actually want. Thats the beauty of capitalism.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InWn8VMH2as[/YOUTUBE]

But back to your assertion... The new 09 CTS is indeed a very nice car, my sis has one. The navigation system and options are exceptional.
Click to expand...

Peter Schiff is a man I greatly respect from an economic perspective (I've read both Crash Proof and Little Book of Bull Moves in a Bear Market). I HIGHLY recommend those two books to anyone.

The auto LOAN (I mean, we just gave the banking industry 10 times the sum with much less fanfair) is perhaps the one issue I've disagreed with Peter on.

I can see the logic behind a "structured" bankruptcy. It would have the benefit of eliminating some of the archaic UAW contracts (job banks etc. etc.) as well as helping with the dealer problem (the US companies have way too many dealers, but they are legally bound to them).

My biggest concern would be to lose yet another wealth creating industry. Boeing commercial aircraft and Caterpillar of great examples of strong manufacturing companies. They employ loads of PhD's and engineers. Skilled trades guys that make a good income. Machinists and assembly people that can support families and live a decent life. Service jobs just can't create the kind of wealth that manufacturing can.

The problem is that we have too few of these diamonds in the rough. This is part of the problem in the U.S. in that manufacturing has become such a small part of our GDP, which I think we might all agree at this point, is way too consumer driven in the first place, rather than producer/export driven.
 
cfdavid said:
Peter Schiff is a man I greatly respect from an economic perspective (I've read both Crash Proof and Little Book of Bull Moves in a Bear Market). I HIGHLY recommend those two books to anyone.

The auto LOAN (I mean, we just gave the banking industry 10 times the sum with much less fanfair) is perhaps the one issue I've disagreed with Peter on.

I can see the logic behind a "structured" bankruptcy. It would have the benefit of eliminating some of the archaic UAW contracts (job banks etc. etc.) as well as helping with the dealer problem (the US companies have way too many dealers, but they are legally bound to them).

My biggest concern would be to lose yet another wealth creating industry. Boeing commercial aircraft and Caterpillar of great examples of strong manufacturing companies. They employ loads of PhD's and engineers. Skilled trades guys that make a good income. Machinists and assembly people that can support families and live a decent life. Service jobs just can't create the kind of wealth that manufacturing can.

The problem is that we have too few of these diamonds in the rough. This is part of the problem in the U.S. in that manufacturing has become such a small part of our GDP, which I think we might all agree at this point, is way too consumer driven in the first place, rather than producer/export driven.
Click to expand...

Everything you said, I agree... except the car issue. I know its a great employer and one of the few standing manufacturing sectors of the economy. However, you can't escape the mismanaged past. They were too busy investing on gas guzzling SUVs to realize Americans wanted smaller, greener, fuel efficient cars. We are allowing these same CEOs and managers make the same mistakes. We need a car company that is shaped by the customers not bureaucrats. Only in a free market can this occur.

We have a strong consumer market because of our endless accessible credit. We had a phony self inflated economy that inflated the real market prices of just about everything. Do you think if student loans weren't so readily available, they would be charging us 30k/year for tuition? This same concept spilled over into manufacturing. It simply costs more to manufacture than to import with our phony credit.

But if we let this economy deflate governed by the natural law of economics our manufacturing and production will thrive once we bottom out. The current government strategies of encouraging credit based spending instead of saving are just prolonging the devastation.

I guess if had to choose a bailout between the financials or the auto industry, I would choose the auto industry. But ideally neither should.
 
RxBoy said:
Everything you said, I agree... except the car issue. I know its a great employer and one of the few standing manufacturing sectors of the economy. However, you can't escape the mismanaged past. They were too busy investing on gas guzzling SUVs to realize Americans wanted smaller, greener, fuel efficient cars. We are allowing these same CEOs and managers make the same mistakes. We need a car company that is shaped by the customers not bureaucrats. Only in a free market can this occur.

We have a strong consumer market because of our endless accessible credit. We had a phony self inflated economy that inflated the real market prices of just about everything. Do you think if student loans weren't so readily available, they would be charging us 30k/year for tuition? This same concept spilled over into manufacturing. It simply costs more to manufacture than to import with our phony credit.

But if we let this economy deflate governed by the natural law of economics our manufacturing and production will thrive once we bottom out. The current government strategies of encouraging credit based spending instead of saving are just prolonging the devastation.

I guess if had to choose a bailout between the financials or the auto industry, I would choose the auto industry. But ideally neither should.
Click to expand...

I agree. But, you and I both know the government is going to f.ck this up even more. Again, I think a structured bailout may have been a good thing, and I've oscillated back and forth. Fortunately, concessions by the UAW have been made as a contingency of the loan they've recieved.

Back to your point. It irks me to no end when I hear people in business, media, and government refer to Americans as "consumers". WTF? Even in this climate our wonderful government is relying on consumer spending to try to revive the economy, when in reality we need to make some tough investments in order to create a more sustainable one.

That's why we'll go from one inflated bubble to another......
 
Even if its a great car, why buy from a company that may go belly up in the next year or so? As a great man once said
"Hey, if you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it guaranteed, I will. I got spare time. But for now, for your customer's sake, for your daughter's sake, ya might wanna think about buying a quality product from me."

In other words your warranty aint gonna be worth crap.
 
I drive American, albeit, uhhhhh...a little modified.


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RxBoy said:
Everything you said, I agree... except the car issue. I know its a great employer and one of the few standing manufacturing sectors of the economy. However, you can't escape the mismanaged past. They were too busy investing on gas guzzling SUVs to realize Americans wanted smaller, greener, fuel efficient cars. We are allowing these same CEOs and managers make the same mistakes. We need a car company that is shaped by the customers not bureaucrats. Only in a free market can this occur.
.
Click to expand...

I will never, ever drive a small, green car.

Ever.
 
The CTS is one of the best luxury sport cars in the market. I would buy one without a question if I were in the market. I wanted one 3 yrs ago but my fellow's salary wouldn't allow it(40k-car/50k-fellowship).

All the people I know that have one say it rides like a bmw or better. I'm not sure where Noy's comment is coming from.
 
RxBoy said:
Everything you said, I agree... except the car issue. I know its a great employer and one of the few standing manufacturing sectors of the economy. However, you can't escape the mismanaged past. They were too busy investing on gas guzzling SUVs to realize Americans wanted smaller, greener, fuel efficient cars. We are allowing these same CEOs and managers make the same mistakes. We need a car company that is shaped by the customers not bureaucrats. Only in a free market can this occur.
Click to expand...
You totally contradict yourself. Actually, BIG SUV's are EXACTLY what the american consumer wants. It's govt regulation getting in the way and making the market all screwey. CAFE laws are a joke. See, the american consumer doesn't need the govt telling them what kinds of cars they want to drive. Their wallets will do that for them.

I pity all the pansies driving around in priuses with gas <$2/gallon. Actually, they piss me off because they clog up the fast lane as they watch the dashboard trying to maximize their fuel economy! We should have a new law--"If you drive a pu$$y car, you have to drive in the slow lane."
 
Surfer said:
You totally contradict yourself. Actually, BIG SUV's are EXACTLY what the american consumer wants. It's govt regulation getting in the way and making the market all screwey. CAFE laws are a joke. See, the american consumer doesn't need the govt telling them what kinds of cars they want to drive. Their wallets will do that for them.

I pity all the pansies driving around in priuses with gas <$2/gallon. Actually, they piss me off because they clog up the fast lane as they watch the dashboard trying to maximize their fuel economy! We should have a new law--"If you drive a pu$$y car, you have to drive in the slow lane."
Click to expand...

I agree the government should never regulate car production. I believe in a totally free market. Anything the government gets its hands in becomes expensive and inefficient.

I never argued they should stop producing SUVs. The demand is obviously there, seeing as I have a SUV myself. They have just misforcasted and mismanged their market, putting most of their eggs in one basket. They shouldn't get any bailouts for making such errors.

Anyways here are some real numbers:

The Top 10 Best-Selling Cars of 2008

  • Ford F-Series: 515,513
  • Chevy Silverado: 465,065
  • Toyota Camry: 436,617
  • Honda Accord: 372,789
  • Toyota Corolla: 351,007
  • Honda Civic: 339,289
  • Nissan Altima: 269,668
  • Chevy Impala: 265,840
  • Dodge Ram: 245,840
  • Honda CR-V: 197,279

December 2008's Top 10 Best-Selling Cars

  • Ford F-Series: 41,580
  • Chevy Silverado: 33,340
  • Toyota Camry: 25,275
  • Honda Accord: 22,348
  • Toyota Corolla: 22,129
  • Chevy Impala: 21,148
  • Chevy Malibu: 17,355
  • Nissan Altima: 17,311
  • Honda Civic: 17,302
  • Dodge Ram: 16,618
How many SUVs do you see in the top 10? Sure you can call some of the above pu**y cars but that's what sells to the mass public. Unfortunately, not everyone can afford big expensive SUVs plus their maintenance. As for $2 dollar gas prices, most of the public believe this is temporary. They're a lot more hesitant to buy gas guzzlers.

Plus, I am not sure what you are trying to debate. Americans companies should be on top of the market because they insisted on producing SUVs? Obviously thats not the case, they're nearly bankrupt for doing this.

As for the GVT, I'm as anti-regulation as it gets.
 
I'm just arguing that the car companies should make whatever they think the public will buy, and the public should buy whatever they feel like buying. The govt should not be in the equation at all.

If the american car companies can't produce cars the public wants to buy, then they should go out of business.

I'm a total USA car guy, by the way. But i'm anti-bailout. And the CTS (model year 2008-current) is bad ass! I would buy that car if i had the funds! It drives just as well as a bmw 3 series for much less dough. Nice ride!
 
The CTS's are pretty nice. They are cheap enough that a few of the 2nd year residents bought one with their moonlighting dough. The anesthesiologist I rotated with in December had an Audi R8. Now thats an attending's car!
 
Surfer said:
I'm just arguing that the car companies should make whatever they think the public will buy, and the public should buy whatever they feel like buying. The govt should not be in the equation at all.

If the american car companies can't produce cars the public wants to buy, then they should go out of business.

I'm a total USA car guy, by the way. But i'm anti-bailout. And the CTS (model year 2008-current) is bad ass! I would buy that car if i had the funds! It drives just as well as a bmw 3 series for much less dough. Nice ride!
Click to expand...

THat's the problem, the car companies here in the US don't know what the public wants. Of the top 10 only 4 are US and of those 4, 3 are trucks. And I'd bet that the big reason those 3 trucks and the impala (police cars) are in the top 10 is b/c of fleet sales more than consumer sales. That's my guess but it seems likely.

And the BMW 3 series, the mercedes, the G35, and the CTS are all in the same price range. Look at the car and driver article posted above.
 
Surfer said:
I'm just arguing that the car companies should make whatever they think the public will buy, and the public should buy whatever they feel like buying. The govt should not be in the equation at all.

If the american car companies can't produce cars the public wants to buy, then they should go out of business.

I'm a total USA car guy, by the way. But i'm anti-bailout. And the CTS (model year 2008-current) is bad ass! I would buy that car if i had the funds! It drives just as well as a bmw 3 series for much less dough. Nice ride!
Click to expand...

The SUV issue is sort of complex. Who could have predicted such wild swings in oil/gas prices? Oil was over $120/barrel just last year. Now, it's at around $40. So, you can imagine how difficult is must be to hedge such wild swings in fuel.

Also, because of the huge legacy/healthcare costs that the US auto companies had to shoulder, then NEEDED the higher cost per unit (i.e. larger SUVs) in order to stay profitable.

If they have healthcare/legacy cost of $2500/vehicle (or whatever the exact number is), then a 2% margin on a $30,000 vehicle could allow for the maintanance of their obligations while also keeping the company profitable.
Conversely, 2% of a small compact car costing $17000 wouldn't be enough margin to offset their costs over the long term. This is a BIG factor in driving their vehicle lineup.
 
consumer reports:
The redesigned CTS is as capable as its German rivals. The ride is firm but supple, and the CTS steers nicely. Three different suspension settings are offered. We think the medium one (FE2) best suits the car. The standard V6 is smooth and refined and makes 263 hp. The 3.6-liter with direct-injection fuel-injection produces 304 hp. Interior upgrades include conventional, more comfortable front safety belts; better interior materials; and impressive fit and finish with a few minor exceptions. Unfortunately the optional bi-xenon lights lack flash-to- pass capability. The high-performance CTS-V returns for 2009 with a 556-hp supercharged V8. Reliability has been below average.

that anesthesia attending driving an r8 is just showing off. pretty hard to afford a 120k car even on a 500k(this is above 90th% for gas) salary. i mean, if he lives with his mom, he can probably swing it though.
 
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cfdavid said:
The SUV issue is sort of complex. Who could have predicted such wild swings in oil/gas prices? Oil was over $120/barrel just last year. Now, it's at around $40. So, you can imagine how difficult is must be to hedge such wild swings in fuel.

Also, because of the huge legacy/healthcare costs that the US auto companies had to shoulder, then NEEDED the higher cost per unit (i.e. larger SUVs) in order to stay profitable.

If they have healthcare/legacy cost of $2500/vehicle (or whatever the exact number is), then a 2% margin on a $30,000 vehicle could allow for the maintanance of their obligations while also keeping the company profitable.
Conversely, 2% of a small compact car costing $17000 wouldn't be enough margin to offset their costs over the long term. This is a BIG factor in driving their vehicle lineup.
Click to expand...
It doesn't matter what reason they have to produce the wrong car or less reliable cars.
If they are going to ask the consumer to pay more money for inferior cars then they might as well adopt the old soviet model and make it impossible or prohibitively expensive to buy foreign cars.
Otherwise in a free market model there are only two things that are important: quality and price.
Make a better or cheaper car and people will buy it.
 
Planktonmd said:
It doesn't matter what reason they have to produce the wrong car or less reliable cars.
If they are going to ask the consumer to pay more money for inferior cars then they might as well adopt the old soviet model and make it impossible or prohibitively expensive to buy foreign cars.
Otherwise in a free market model there are only two things that are important: quality and price.
Make a better or cheaper car and people will buy it.
Click to expand...

Well Plank, it kind of does. Foreign companies producing in the US haven't been around long enough to accumulate the kinds of healthcare and retiree benefits that the US companies have. Also, for IMPORTS, one can't discount the competitive advantage to a company producing in a nation with national healthcare. So, we need to keep these things in mind. It's not an even playing field.

As for "free markets", the US has been the only fool on the block truly practicing "free" trade.

How about bringing in highly skilled anesthesiologists from India or elsewhere in Asia that will be willing to do your job for 1/4 of what you make?? How about that. You can get genius IQ level attendings from Asia (people that came in the top 99% of their national "competency" exams just to be able to go to med school) that will be happy to do your job for much less.

How about we encourage the "free trade" of quality diagnostic reading from places like Eastern Europe, India, or South Korea?? Maybe we can take the free trade concept all the way. Then, maybe no Americans will have a job.

For now, you might say, there just aren't enough of said individuals to go around. But, what if there were? Would you sign on to that?
 
cfdavid said:
Well Plank, it kind of does. Foreign companies producing in the US haven't been around long enough to accumulate the kinds of healthcare and retiree benefits that the US companies have. Also, for IMPORTS, one can't discount the competitive advantage to a company producing in a nation with national healthcare. So, we need to keep these things in mind. It's not an even playing field.

As for "free markets", the US has been the only fool on the block truly practicing "free" trade.

How about bringing in highly skilled anesthesiologists from India or elsewhere in Asia that will be willing to do your job for 1/4 of what you make?? How about that. You can get genius IQ level attendings from Asia (people that came in the top 99% of their national "competency" exams just to be able to go to med school) that will be happy to do your job for much less.

How about we encourage the "free trade" of quality diagnostic reading from places like Eastern Europe, India, or South Korea?? Maybe we can take the free trade concept all the way. Then, maybe no Americans will have a job.

For now, you might say, there just aren't enough of said individuals to go around. But, what if there were? Would you sign on to that?
Click to expand...

I am not arguing that we shouldn't support American products but I am saying that we should demand that these products become at least equal to the competition.
If the Indian doctor is going to compete with me I would work harder on making myself more desirable and maybe offer better services than he does, If I can't then I should not be paid more than him.
 
Noyac said:
And the BMW 3 series, the mercedes, the G35, and the CTS are all in the same price range. Look at the car and driver article posted above.
Click to expand...

True, but the CTS actually competes with the 5-series and E class on size. And yes, if you read reviews they have been uniformly glowing. Many say the CTS-V is a better driver's car than the E60 M5, in fact. The American car industry has its problems but the CTS is certainly one of its gems.
 
Planktonmd said:
I am not arguing that we shouldn't support American products but I am saying that we should demand that these products become at least equal to the competition.
If the Indian doctor is going to compete with me I would work harder on making myself more desirable and maybe offer better services than he does, If I can't then I should not be paid more than him.
Click to expand...

I agree on quality and affordable products. To some extent I'm playing the devil's advocate. We're all on the same team as far as I'm concerned.

As for foreign doctors, the medical community clearly has barriers that protects it's members from what I outlined above. And most of us are proponents of such barriers (albeit some are surely for the better good to ensure real quality etc) WHEN IT'S OUR JOB on the line. We enjoy these protectionist measures (though we'll never admit to calling them "protectionist") that really do limit the kind of competition that other workers in different industries must contend with, daily.

When it's the "other guy", to hell with him. Heck, he's just an uneducated fat slob, I keep hearing. He needs to be able to compete, at all costs, with the guy from Vietnam, or else to hell with him. He doesn't "deserve" a job.

We need to get away from this disconnected thinking. At least to the extent that we've come in the US.

It's easy to be a "free trader" when it's the other guys a.ss on the line. But, if American insurance companies opened up their policies for reimbursement of surgical procedures to Mexican doctors, you can bet that there would be a major outcry from the US medical establishment. Sure, the arguements would be driven by all kinds of creative dialogue about lack of standards and quality etc etc. But, what kind of standards does a manufacturer in China have, compared to the safety afforded an American factory worker??


cf
 
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cfdavid said:
I agree on quality and affordable products. To some extent I'm playing the devil's advocate. We're all on the same team as far as I'm concerned.

As for foreign doctors, the medical community clearly has barriers that protects it's members from what I outlined above. And most of us are proponents of such barriers (albeit some are surely for the better good to ensure real quality etc) WHEN IT'S OUR JOB on the line. We enjoy these protectionist measures (though we'll never admit to calling them "protectionist") that really do limit the kind of competition that other workers in different industries must contend with, daily.

When it's the "other guy", to hell with him. Heck, he's just an uneducated fat slob, I keep hearing. He needs to be able to compete, at all costs, with the guy from Vietnam, or else to hell with him. He doesn't "deserve" a job.

We need to get away from this disconnected thinking. At least to the extent that we've come in the US.

It's easy to be a "free trader" when it's the other guys a.ss on the line. But, if American insurance companies opened up their policies for reimbursement of surgical procedures to Mexican doctors, you can bet that there would be a major outcry from the US medical establishment. Sure, the arguements would be driven by all kinds of creative dialogue about lack of standards and quality etc etc. But, what kind of standards does a manufacturer in China have, compared to the safety afforded an American factory worker??


cf
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You are right on many aspects except the part that I should care about what kind of health care or pension the American factory worker has when I am buying a car.
I am more concerned about what kind of safety this car is going to offer me and my family and if that car is going to do what's it's supposed to do with minimal headaches.
That might be selfish but I doubt that many people are willing to buy an expensive unreliable car so the factory worker keeps his benefits.
 
Planktonmd said:
I would love to buy American but here is the issue:
I think the American car industry needs to compete with foreign cars on one of 2 fronts:
Either offer better cars or significantly cheaper cars so people would start considering buying them
If they continue to offer equal or less quality at equal prices no one is going to buy them.
This car is $ 40,000 with the luxury package, you can buy a BMW 528I where the luxury stuff comes standard and maintenance is free for $44,000.
This car should be priced at $30,000 to sell but they won't do it, they'd rather "borrow" money from the tax payers.
Click to expand...

plank you should compare the cts with the 535 bmw not 528 (puny engine). CTS is actually a better value (and beamers have a terrible reliability rep)
 
thegasman said:
plank you should compare the cts with the 535 bmw not 528 (puny engine). CTS is actually a better value (and beamers have a terrible reliability rep)
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I disagree on the reliability of BMW.
I also don't think you can compare the CTS to a BMW 535 on any level.
But I might be biased here.
 
Planktonmd said:
I disagree on the reliability of BMW.
I also don't think you can compare the CTS to a BMW 535 on any level.
But I might be biased here.
Click to expand...

I don't think any modern cars worth driving are reliable anymore. It doesn't seem to be something valued by the marketplace since most of these cars are leased. If you want something reliable, go with Lexus or Honda, but they don't make driver's cars.

You do seem a bit biased against GM here...most reviews say the CTS and 5-series are in the same league; although the interior and handling of the BMW are superior, the improvement may not be worth $20,000 to everyone.

One can also make a similar comparison with the Infiniti G35, by the way. Personally I'd rather spend more to get a smaller, slower BMW, but it's hard to argue that others don't provide better value.
 
thegasman said:
plank you should compare the cts with the 535 bmw not 528 (puny engine). CTS is actually a better value (and beamers have a terrible reliability rep)
Click to expand...

It's a Cadillac for God's sake. :laugh: Those pieces of crap (my opinion, of course) have been advertised for 1/2 off around here.

I'll stick with my Bimmer any day hands down. 👍 I've never had any problems with reliability--and all service has been "free." We have a "family" of them--2008 Z4 M coupe, 2008 335 xi, 2003 325 xit and have had a few in the past: 1995 & 1990 M3 Coupes and a 2001 325 xit.

Toyota's are great too. A family member has the new Tundra similar to Noy's 👍, I used to have a 2001 Tacoma ExtCab SR5 4wd (I loved that thing!) and a 2003 Tundra Limited.

It's sad to say but if you have the cash, forget American cars even exist.
 
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dhb:

1. No thanks
2. No thanks -- I don't wear gold chains and shirts where my chest hair is visible.
3. The Saleen S7 is nice, but I'd rather stick with something less flashy (and that doesn't scream "I'm genitally challenged") like an M3 coupe/sedan.

///M.
 
newbie04 said:
It's a Cadillac for God's sake. :laugh: Those pieces of crap (my opinion, of course) have been advertised for 1/2 off around here.

I'll stick with my Bimmer any day hands down. 👍 I've never had any problems with reliability--and all service has been "free." We have a "family" of them--2008 Z4 M coupe, 2008 335 xi, 2003 325 xit and have had a few in the past: 1995 & 1990 M3 Coupes and a 2001 325 xit.

Toyota's are great too. A family member has the new Tundra similar to Noy's 👍, I used to have a 2001 Tacoma ExtCab SR5 4wd (I loved that thing!) and a 2003 Tundra Limited.

It's sad to say but if you have the cash, forget American cars even exist.
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It's not even remotely credible to call the CTS a piece of crap. I'm glad to hear you've had great experiences with BMW. Many have had equally good experiences with Cadilac, and the CTS is by most accounts a great vehicle.

Oh, and I love the hypocrisy. So many have pronounced value in a lower price (who wouldn't?). Now, you claim that they're advertising at 1/2 off (which I don't believe) and this is a bad value?? Which is it?
 
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GM will either file bankruptcy or need to borrow billions more from the tax payers. Why support this?
 
cfdavid said:
It's not even remotely credible to call the CTS a piece of crap. I'm glad to hear you've had great experiences with BMW. Many have had equally good experiences with Cadilac, and the CTS is by most accounts a great vehicle.

Oh, and I love the hypocrisy. So many have pronounced value in a lower price (who wouldn't?). Now, you claim that they're advertising at 1/2 off (which I don't believe) and this is a bad value?? Which is it?
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A few weeks ago there were TV ads for $25k off the MRSP. It is a bad value at any price-- it's a crappy car. This is my opinion of course; if you gave me this car, I wouldn't take it.

If a car is well made and it's offered at a lower price, it's a win-win. Cadillac has only gained in popularity because of people trying to "live large" with their Escalades and CTSs...and like I said before, they are overpriced and a POS.

Anyway, I am happy for your Dad and I'm glad you like his car. To each his own.
 
newbie04 said:
A few weeks ago there were TV ads for $25k off the MRSP. It is a bad value at any price-- it's a crappy car. This is my opinion of course; if you gave me this car, I wouldn't take it.

If a car is well made and it's offered at a lower price, it's a win-win. Cadillac has only gained in popularity because of people trying to "live large" with their Escalades and CTSs...and like I said before, they are overpriced and a POS.

Anyway, I am happy for your Dad and I'm glad you like his car. To each his own.
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Um, pretty sure that was $2,500 off. 25k off a 40k car would make it about 15k, and the best deal on the face of the earth.

The cts is far cheaper than it's competition (bmw 3/5 series, benz, audi, and even lexus/infiniti). It is a sweet ride and gets over 300hp out of a regularly aspirated engine that runs on regular unleaded (the bmw uses twin turbos and runs on premium). This means your engine will last much longer and be far more reliable with cheaper maintanance.

Dude, I can't even discuss cars with you when you think dealers were offering 25k off the sticker of a cts. that's like the guy that wants to argue drs suck because they come in, see you for 5 minutes, then walk out the door. You just have no clue.
 
Well, the ads in PA that have been running the last month have stated "Get a Cadillac for half off." I concede you're right: this probably doesn't pertain to the POS CTS, but the crazy thing is these were actual TV ads.

Thanks Surfer... you pinned me.

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This is a similar ad...even if the fine print says something else (this is not the exact ad that I saw on TV [the ad I saw was for new not pre-owned], but it gives you an idea of what they were running), it's got the 50% off nonsense directly on the ad.

Surfer said:
Um, pretty sure that was $2,500 off. 25k off a 40k car would make it about 15k, and the best deal on the face of the earth.

The cts is far cheaper than it's competition (bmw 3/5 series, benz, audi, and even lexus/infiniti). It is a sweet ride and gets over 300hp out of a regularly aspirated engine that runs on regular unleaded (the bmw uses twin turbos and runs on premium). This means your engine will last much longer and be far more reliable with cheaper maintanance.

Dude, I can't even discuss cars with you when you think dealers were offering 25k off the sticker of a cts. that's like the guy that wants to argue drs suck because they come in, see you for 5 minutes, then walk out the door. You just have no clue.
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pseudoknot said:
I don't think any modern cars worth driving are reliable anymore. It doesn't seem to be something valued by the marketplace since most of these cars are leased. If you want something reliable, go with Lexus or Honda, but they don't make driver's cars.

You do seem a bit biased against GM here...most reviews say the CTS and 5-series are in the same league; although the interior and handling of the BMW are superior, the improvement may not be worth $20,000 to everyone.

One can also make a similar comparison with the Infiniti G35, by the way. Personally I'd rather spend more to get a smaller, slower BMW, but it's hard to argue that others don't provide better value.
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Check out the 2006-2009 infiniti m - I bought a preowned 06 m45 sport, japanese reliability and definitely a drivers car - beat bmw 545 and all other comers in head to head comparisons from c & d. I wish I waited six months though - theses cars are way cheap right now.
 
BMW had reliability problems in the past which have been resolved.
Mercedes has had a lot of problems with the electronics of the E series to the point that some user experienced their car "freezing" while driving 😱
This prompted Mercedes to launch a massive rework of their electronic systems which seems to have worked out.

Sometimes you can get unlucky with any make.
 
State Medical boards are on the witch hunt for speeding tickets. They seem to think that too many speeding tickets represent a lack of judgment, thus reason to take away your medical license or deny you a new medical license.

We all know the speed limits are ridiculously low and enforcement is about generating revenue not safety. If you drive a Cadillac CTS, BMW, Mercedes or luxury sports cars that seem to fill most doctor parking lots, you are at a severe disadvantage and are asking to be pulled over and given a ticket.

I suggest you need to drive a used generic cheap Japanese or domestic sedan, SUV or Truck, avoid the luxury brands like Acura, Lexus, Infinity, Cadillac or Lincoln. Your goal is to drive a vehicle cheaper than the one the tax collector pulling you over owns.
 
chosebeer said:
State Medical boards are on the witch hunt for speeding tickets. They seem to think that too many speeding tickets represent a lack of judgment, thus reason to take away your medical license or deny you a new medical license.

We all know the speed limits are ridiculously low and enforcement is about generating revenue not safety. If you drive a Cadillac CTS, BMW, Mercedes or luxury sports cars that seem to fill most doctor parking lots, you are at a severe disadvantage and are asking to be pulled over and given a ticket.

I suggest you need to drive a used generic cheap Japanese or domestic sedan, SUV or Truck, avoid the luxury brands like Acura, Lexus, Infinity, Cadillac or Lincoln. Your goal is to drive a vehicle cheaper than the one the tax collector pulling you over owns.
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:eyebrow:
 
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