Calculus-based Physics or Algebra-based Physics?

[premd]

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Would taking calculus-based physics be preferable to algebra-based physics in terms of how well it will prepare you for the MCAT?

I think that algebra-based physics is probably easier, but I want to get the best preparation possible for the MCAT.

 

[juiceman311]

Would taking calculus-based physics be preferable to algebra-based physics in terms of how well it will prepare you for the MCAT?

I think that algebra-based physics is probably easier, but I want to get the best preparation possible for the MCAT.

Algebra should be more than sufficient, in my opinion. Honestly, the MCAT was a lot more concept based than calculation based; so whatever you do, understand the underlying principles rather than formulas.

 

[C.P. Jones]

i would check w/ med schools as well though....you should be able to handle calc-based physics esp. as a pre-med.

what i'm wondering is if alg-based or calc-based is in the name of the course...if it is then i would go w/ calc....if it's not apparent on the transcript, then i don't see why you shouldn't go w/ alg

 

[TicAL]

If you're trying to impress adcoms with Calculus-based Physics, forget it, they don't care. The Calculus-based Physics takes a lot more work, and in my mind won't prepare you any better for the MCAT than Algebra-based Physics will.

 

[_ian]

Algebra-based will prepare you just fine. However, calc-based is not that much more work. Why would it be? Same workload, but they can get away with providing different conditions in the problems. The problems are only harder if integration and differentiation are beyond your skillset; there's no math you wouldn't have already learned in first-semester calculus in basic physics courses. Calc-based physics more relevant, and is far better for conceptual understanding, provided you've taken a couple terms of calculus already.

Of course, if you're a standard-fare pre-med, all you want to do is memorize **** as it is, so concepts don't mean anything.

If you struggled through calculus, then take algebra-based, but if you did fine, there's absolutely no reason not to take calc-based.

 

[dilated]

If you're actually going to use physics ever again, you must take calc because it is the only one that actually teaches you anything. If you're just taking it because the man makes you, you can get by with algebra and 1/3rd the time spent.

 

[sunny123]

Note that usually Calculus-based physics is meant for physics majors, and non-calc based physics is meant for non-physics majors (this is how it is in Canadian universities).

 

[dajimmers]

Currently, calc-based physics is required for Harvard HST program. It is probably also required/suggested for some MSTP programs (I don't know this, though). To keep all options open, including any that change requirements in the next few years, I'd suggest calc-based.

 

[Skichic56]

If you're trying to impress adcoms with Calculus-based Physics, forget it, they don't care. The Calculus-based Physics takes a lot more work, and in my mind won't prepare you any better for the MCAT than Algebra-based Physics will.

Ditto, unless you're interested in HST. Unless you have a great interest, your time is much better spent elsewhere. There is no calc on the mcat.

 

[fiddler]

Sometime calc based physics is easier. They allow you to use a formula sheet whereas algebra based ones make you memorize the formulas.

They don't really do calc in calc based anyways. They show the derivations in lecture but it's not as if you have to actually use calculus to solve problems.

fiddler

 

[LabMonster]

Bottom line: If your math kung-fu is strong, go the calc-based route. If you struggle with math/calc, go the other way. Get your A's without killing yourself.

 

[jebus]

Bottom line: If your math kung-fu is strong, go the calc-based route. If you struggle with math/calc, go the other way. Get your A's without killing yourself.

I totally agree with this. And apply it in other courses: don't take calculus based physical chemistry if you don't have to, etc. All the Adcoms see is the grade, they never know if you took engineer's math or calc based physics. When you apply, all they see is a course number and a grade, not any other information about the course. Get your A's!
I sort of feel like a tool for taking all those hard ass classes.

 

[jon stewart]

no one can really comment on which physics class has less work to do, it depends on the school. However, in gerenal i think non calc based is easier, dont take calc based beacause it looks impressive.

 

[lropp]

Currently, calc-based physics is required for Harvard HST program. It is probably also required/suggested for some MSTP programs (I don't know this, though). To keep all options open, including any that change requirements in the next few years, I'd suggest calc-based.

What exactly is the HST program...MSTP??? 😱

 

[mev]

My vote is algebra based, not because I'm lazy, but because of experience at my school (UWash). At my school calc based was geared for physics majors (and I took it because I started out as a physics major). It had zero practical value and it sucked. The brilliant research profs with no aptitude for teaching were the lecturers because they though it was beneath them to have to lecture to the "commoners" in the algebra-based series. The people in the alg series definitely benefited from missing out on these profs! The profs in the calc series constantly lectured at a math level even above regular calculus. Even though students pointed this out the profs just told us understanding these in-class problems was optional. This didn't help us because it just meant we had to do all the real learning for the class on our own!! I tried honors for one quarter too, and that was even worse! The profs assumed everyone was obsessed with higher level math and dying to spend all their class time on that instead of the actual problems that would be on the test.

By comparison, my friends experience in the alg series was that they got real, practical instruction on how to solve problems and think them through. Their profs were usually not pissed at having to teach first-year students. In my opinion their series was much better suited to the MCAT. Talk to people at your school about the physics series and make sure you don't cheat yourself out of a good education just by trying to impress someone with your transcript!!!

 

[Flopotomist]

I would vote for the calc. based physics. I am a total math *****, and in fact took calc I and physics CONCURRENTLY, and managed to squeek out an A in the physics class without too much trouble. THere is not THAT much calculus in calc. based physics to be honest. It is just a few very simple concepts (like understanding what a derivative is, and understanding what integration means) that are used to help explain things. Actually, in my view, calc. based was easier because you actually got explanations for things instead of just rules and laws to memorize.

In terms of MCAT prep, I don't think the calc. part helped at all though. One other consideration (that really really helped me) the students in the calc. based course tend to be a bit stronger academically, so if you form a study group, you can really do quite well.

Good luck!

 

[novawildcat]

calculus based physics is actually easier. Honestly who remembers the equations for an object under constant acceleration? I don't I just derive them.


All you have to remember is that velocity is the integral of acceleration with respect to time.


v=I(a) or v=vo+at

integrate again and you get the position as a function of time

x=x0+vot+1/2at^2

no memorization required!

 

[gozeemer]

calculus based physics is actually easier. Honestly who remembers the equations for an object under constant acceleration? I don't I just derive them.


All you have to remember is that velocity is the integral of acceleration with respect to time.


v=I(a) or v=vo+at

integrate again and you get the position as a function of time

x=x0+vot+1/2at^2

no memorization required!

I agree, Calc bases physics TEACHES you physics, doesn't just give you a bunch of crap to memorize. I personally would recommend it from the stand point of education alone. I found it helpful for the MCAT just because the concepts come really easy..

 

[g3pro]

Don't take calc-based physics at an engineering school. If you do, you will know the definition of pain of suffering.

 

[bwells46]

Would taking calculus-based physics be preferable to algebra-based physics in terms of how well it will prepare you for the MCAT?

I think that algebra-based physics is probably easier, but I want to get the best preparation possible for the MCAT.

I would think Calculus-based physics would be just as easy. After all, Calculus was invented to make physics easier.

 

[Hurricane95]

Calc-based all the way. Calc physics helps you understand why things are; a lot of people incorrectly think that it means the class is all computations. Not true. My experience is that my friends who take regular physics don't learn a thing. It's more like "ok, here's a list of 100 formulas. Memorize them, and let's play plug'n'chug". Find the missing letter. Why does the bernoulli effect work? Who the hell knows...but if you give me v and rho and a couple of other letters, I can find P in my calculator....haha...not good.

 

[Jon Davis]

Calc-based all the way. Calc physics helps you understand why things are; a lot of people incorrectly think that it means the class is all computations. Not true. My experience is that my friends who take regular physics don't learn a thing. It's more like "ok, here's a list of 100 formulas. Memorize them, and let's play plug'n'chug". Find the missing letter. Why does the bernoulli effect work? Who the hell knows...but if you give me v and rho and a couple of other letters, I can find P in my calculator....haha...not good.

I absolutely agree with him. The calc-based gives you a truly good internal look into how things work. Its better for the MCAT in my opinion because you need that kind of comprehensive knowledge to get by the weaving and turning you'll have to do during the test.

 

[jebus]

Mev, oh come on, you didn't like Dr. Gordon Watts? (I think that's his name. He was a funny, nerdy guy with long hair who always managed to hurt himself during the demonstrations.) Is he still there? Is there a more perfect name for a physics professor?

 

[QofQuimica]

Shrike and I both think that pre-med students should take calc-based physics, assuming that you can earn a good grade in the class.

 

[alansda]

I totally agree with this. And apply it in other courses: don't take calculus based physical chemistry if you don't have to, etc. All the Adcoms see is the grade, they never know if you took engineer's math or calc based physics. When you apply, all they see is a course number and a grade, not any other information about the course. Get your A's!
I sort of feel like a tool for taking all those hard ass classes.

Can anyone attest to that statement?

 

[dilated]

Can anyone attest to that statement?

I'm pretty sure it's wrong, what they see is pretty close to what you see when you hit print app (minus schools applied to and such).

 

[jebus]

I'm pretty sure it's wrong, what they see is pretty close to what you see when you hit print app (minus schools applied to and such).

When you hit "print app" on AMCAS all you see is essentially the course name, the course number, the number of credit hours, and the grade. They don't see "calculus based physics" unless that's in the course title on your official transcript. To be fair, I mistyped - I didn't include a statement about the name or credit hours. But the spirit of my initial post - that they won't see you took a more rigorous course - is correct. I forget that people are sometimes very literal in their interpretation. My apologies.

 

[penguinophile]

I totally agree with this. And apply it in other courses: don't take calculus based physical chemistry if you don't have to, etc. All the Adcoms see is the grade, they never know if you took engineer's math or calc based physics. When you apply, all they see is a course number and a grade, not any other information about the course. Get your A's!
I sort of feel like a tool for taking all those hard ass classes.

Huh? Theres a p.chem course that doens't use calc???? How the hell does that work? Was it just thermo, which is still a stretch, but I don't see quantum being taught w/o calc.

 

[jebus]

Huh? Theres a p.chem course that doens't use calc???? How the hell does that work? Was it just thermo, which is still a stretch, but I don't see quantum being taught w/o calc.

you had it: thermo. I sat in on it for the first week and ran to the calc based class.

 

[dilated]

When you hit "print app" on AMCAS all you see is essentially the course name, the course number, the number of credit hours, and the grade. They don't see "calculus based physics" unless that's in the course title on your official transcript.

But it usually is, though. Mine had "for science and engineering" in it, and I've seen the same at many other places. It doesn't explicitly say it's calc-based but I'm sure adcoms know any kind of physics for "science" or "engineering" is not going to be the algebra one.

 

[DrBowtie]

Without calc based physics you will never enjoy such nonexistant things like infinite planes nor infinitely long wires. Lucky.

 

[juiceman311]

Sometime calc based physics is easier. They allow you to use a formula sheet whereas algebra based ones make you memorize the formulas.

They don't really do calc in calc based anyways. They show the derivations in lecture but it's not as if you have to actually use calculus to solve problems.

fiddler

This is actually 100% accurate, or at least exactly my experience. I took calc-based (we don't have alg-based), and really it's not hard at all. It is probably a bit easier actually, derivatives and integrals are shortcuts in a sense if you're okay with them. I don't recall ever having to do anything more than an extremely basic integral or derivative in physics.

It really boils down to learning and understanding the concepts.

I didn't, and I got a C in Physics 1. But not because it was hard, because I was a ******.

 

[dilated]

This is actually 100% accurate, or at least exactly my experience. I took calc-based (we don't have alg-based), and really it's not hard at all. It is probably a bit easier actually, derivatives and integrals are shortcuts in a sense if you're okay with them. I don't recall ever having to do anything more than an extremely basic integral or derivative in physics.

It really boils down to learning and understanding the concepts.

I didn't, and I got a C in Physics 1. But not because it was hard, because I was a ******.

The hardest part of calc-based isn't the calc, it's the night and day difference between the type of people you're curved against in each class.

 

[Jon Davis]

Sometime calc based physics is easier. They allow you to use a formula sheet whereas algebra based ones make you memorize the formulas.

They don't really do calc in calc based anyways. They show the derivations in lecture but it's not as if you have to actually use calculus to solve problems.

fiddler

They let you have formula sheets in calc-based????!!!!???!!!!!
Dang!

 

[unfrozencaveman]

The hardest part of calc-based isn't the calc, it's the night and day difference between the type of people you're curved against in each class.

Very very true. And could well be true for the correlation of people doing better on the mcat having taken calc-physics.

I took algebra based physics, in a class where they gave us ALL the formulas on the test. Still did a.o.k on the PS MCAT.
On the other hand, I did math night and day as an undergrad, and I really dont feel that throwing a few integrals into my physics homework would have helped me understand concepts any better.
The thing about algebra based physics is you can definitely fake it- if you can figure out which equation to use where, and plug the right numbers into the right places, then it can be done without knowing anything about physics. But, doing that correctly is actually really hard without a good conceptual grasp of that material.
That is pretty anecdotal evidence though. Beats me if it generally helps or hurts with MCAT, admissions and the like across the board.
Above all though, go for the A.

 

[g3pro]

The hardest part of calc-based isn't the calc, it's the night and day difference between the type of people you're curved against in each class.

QFT.

Personally, I think that calc-based physics is more difficult to understand the concepts because you're spending so much time working through the math. Algebra-based allows a quantitative perspective on almost purely conceptual information.

 

[novawildcat]

They shouldn't offer algebra based physics in college. Algebra is for highshcool.

 

[HessExpress]

Blah Blah Blah. THe MCAT is algebraic-based physics. Take algebraic-based physics.

 

[willthatsall]

I know calc-based is harder at my school. So I took algebra based to be lazy and not have to work. Really easy A, and it was sufficient for the MCAT. Definitely plug n' chug and I wasn't forced to truly learn anything. Ended up relearning it all studying for the MCAT. If you want to challenge yourself and have a real interest in physics, take calc-based, but don't think it is going to help on the MCAT because the physics on the MCAT is really simple. There was even stuff in my algebra-based class that was outside the realm of what is on the MCAT.

 

[HessExpress]

Exactly. So why are people not using logic?

Oh wait, they want to make life harder than it has to be!

 

[OSUdoc08]

Would taking calculus-based physics be preferable to algebra-based physics in terms of how well it will prepare you for the MCAT?

I think that algebra-based physics is probably easier, but I want to get the best preparation possible for the MCAT.

There is no calculus on the MCAT. There is also nothing beyond algebra-based physics on the MCAT.

In addition, you neither use physics nor calculus nor algebra in medical school.

Taking calc-based physics for the sole purpose of the MCAT is stupid.

Only take it if it is required for your major.

 

[novawildcat]

Amazing. Calculus is probably one of the top 3 invnetions/discoveries man has ever made. I don't see how med schools can accept anyone who has never studied calculus/ever used calculus in another class.

 

[unfrozencaveman]

Amazing. Calculus is probably one of the top 3 invnetions/discoveries man has ever made. I don't see how med schools can accept anyone who has never studied calculus/ever used calculus in another class.

You could say this about any field of study for which there is no direct use in medicine.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Amazing. Calculus is probably one of the top 3 invnetions/discoveries man has ever made. I don't see how med schools can accept anyone who has never studied calculus/ever used calculus in another class.

Dumbest thing I've ever heard.

Doctors don't use calculus. Your comment doesn't make any sense.

 

[dilated]

__________________
Back then they didn't want me, now I'm hot they all on me

Dude, I had the Mike Jones sig first. Don't make me send the People's Champ down there.

 

[Mister Pie]

One thing to keep in mind though is that while calculus-based physics courses might not be harder at the lower div level, they CAN be. My guy was extremely calculus happy, and I had to take integrals all semester for everything from center of mass to moment of interia, to calculation of the gravitational attraction exerted by a ring. This was on the homework and on the actual tests. While it's true that maybe by "calculus-based" they mean "we'll just derive the equations using calculus and then you never have to think about it again", this is by no means a hard and fast rule.

Another thing about calculus based physics is that the math might be over-emphasized in place of concepts. This was definitely the case for me: a lot of times I felt like I was taking a course on applied mathematics than physics.

 

[novawildcat]

Dumbest thing I've ever heard.
Doctors don't use calculus.

You sir are an idiot. Doctors that specialize in diseases know that bacteria mulitply at an exponential rate. Doctors who study epidemiology uses TONS of calculus.

Some more examples:


Calculating Breast Cancer Survival Rates

Date: 06/30/2003 at 21:30:52
From: Glenn Tisman, M.D.
Subject: Finding roots

How do I find the nth year survival:
Survival of a group of breast cancer patients is 100 at year 0, 100*X
at year 1, 100*X*X at year 2, 100*X*X*X at year three and so on to
year 10.

For instance for a n = 10 year survival of 40% the value of X = 0.912

Where X is percentage survival, assuming survival decreases constantly
on a yearly basis. I would like to know how to solve for X for any
10-year survival from 1 to 100% survival at 10 years.
n is the year from 1->10 years

Anything involving rates involves calculus

1) Neurologists who take EEGs (electro-encephalograms) are measuring
brain voltages at various points in the brain to detect how the
voltages surge around. There's normal wave motion, as well as all sorts
of types of epilepsy and other problems that can be detected by this
method. Unfortunately, the data, as they come out of the machine, are
pretty noisy. Various mathematical "filters" must be applied to see the
underlying wave phenomena. This is basically Fourier analysis on wave
forms that shows how the geometry of the complex, noisy forms is
composed of stong, underlying primitive waves.





"My wife is a physician, a neurologist working with patients with
epilepsy. Every day she runs EEGs on the patients, where you hook
electrodes to the heads and plot the (microscopic) voltage differences
between various parts of the brain. If there are irregularities (caused
by tumors, lesions, et cetera), there are irregularities in the
electrical signals. She needs to take sums or differences of the
voltages, and can apply various digital filters to the data to
eliminate noise, or to eliminate a known signal from the rest to see if
there are irregularities in what's left. The frequencies of the signals
are interesting, but they come in a horrible mix, so the filters
effectively do various mathematical transforms to the signals, such as
Fourier transforms and many others. It's basically digital signal
processing, but with 20 signals, all of which are related."



"What is nuclear medicine?
Nuclear medicine is a specialized area of radiology that uses very small amounts of radioactive materials, or radiopharmaceuticals, to examine organ function and structure. Nuclear medicine imaging is a combination of many different disciplines, including chemistry, physics, mathematics, computer technology, and medicine. This branch of radiology is often used to help diagnose and treat abnormalities very early in the progression of a disease, such as thyroid cancer."


Next time think before you speak.

 

[Sundarban1]

Woo Hoo! Let's here it from all you epidemiologits who don't use computer software to do your calculations...hush now...any minute...wait..(pin drop)..its coming...

 

[OSUdoc08]

You sir are an idiot. Doctors that specialize in diseases know that bacteria mulitply at an exponential rate. Doctors who study epidemiology uses TONS of calculus.

Some more examples:


Calculating Breast Cancer Survival Rates

Date: 06/30/2003 at 21:30:52
From: Glenn Tisman, M.D.
Subject: Finding roots

How do I find the nth year survival:
Survival of a group of breast cancer patients is 100 at year 0, 100*X
at year 1, 100*X*X at year 2, 100*X*X*X at year three and so on to
year 10.

For instance for a n = 10 year survival of 40% the value of X = 0.912

Where X is percentage survival, assuming survival decreases constantly
on a yearly basis. I would like to know how to solve for X for any
10-year survival from 1 to 100% survival at 10 years.
n is the year from 1->10 years

Anything involving rates involves calculus

1) Neurologists who take EEGs (electro-encephalograms) are measuring
brain voltages at various points in the brain to detect how the
voltages surge around. There's normal wave motion, as well as all sorts
of types of epilepsy and other problems that can be detected by this
method. Unfortunately, the data, as they come out of the machine, are
pretty noisy. Various mathematical "filters" must be applied to see the
underlying wave phenomena. This is basically Fourier analysis on wave
forms that shows how the geometry of the complex, noisy forms is
composed of stong, underlying primitive waves.





"My wife is a physician, a neurologist working with patients with
epilepsy. Every day she runs EEGs on the patients, where you hook
electrodes to the heads and plot the (microscopic) voltage differences
between various parts of the brain. If there are irregularities (caused
by tumors, lesions, et cetera), there are irregularities in the
electrical signals. She needs to take sums or differences of the
voltages, and can apply various digital filters to the data to
eliminate noise, or to eliminate a known signal from the rest to see if
there are irregularities in what's left. The frequencies of the signals
are interesting, but they come in a horrible mix, so the filters
effectively do various mathematical transforms to the signals, such as
Fourier transforms and many others. It's basically digital signal
processing, but with 20 signals, all of which are related."



"What is nuclear medicine?
Nuclear medicine is a specialized area of radiology that uses very small amounts of radioactive materials, or radiopharmaceuticals, to examine organ function and structure. Nuclear medicine imaging is a combination of many different disciplines, including chemistry, physics, mathematics, computer technology, and medicine. This branch of radiology is often used to help diagnose and treat abnormalities very early in the progression of a disease, such as thyroid cancer."


Next time think before you speak.

Perhaps you should. Math in medical school doesn't not go beyond an 8th grade level.

It was a waste of my time to read that post. There is nothing related to calculus in it. So, what's your point?

On a side note: Those that specialize in epidemiology take courses & have training OUTSIDE of medical school to become proficient in that area.