California DO job market specific question

[Throwaway692015]

Hi everyone!

I was recently shadowing an MD and he tried to get me to stray away from DO. His reasoning was that California medicine is becoming more and more competitive in California and he said that DOs will have a harder time in the future finding jobs. He even stated it is already challenging being in Cali as a DO. Is there any accuracy to this statment, or was this he just a prejudiced MD?

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[trev5150]

Just smile and nod.

 

[Seth Joo]

Hi everyone!

I was recently shadowing an MD and he tried to get me to stray away from DO. His reasoning was that California medicine is becoming more and more competitive in California and he said that DOs will have a harder time in the future finding jobs. He even stated it is already challenging being in Cali as a DO. Is there any accuracy to this statment, or was this he just a prejudiced MD?

I go to school in neighboring Arizona and about 40 to 45 percent of my class is from California, to be honest, you can work in California as a DO on certain conditions, if you are willing to work as a primary care physician, if you are willing to work in rural or inner city locales, otherwise its going to be very very uphill to work as a DO over there. The major cities in California have more than enough physicians like most major US metro areas. He was not being a prejudiced MD but he really was not telling you the whole story.

That being said, Southern California definitely has plenty of areas of "need", particularly around Los Angeles where a DO can make a living, its not like my hometown where its nearly impossible for DOs to find work.

 

[Dr. Death]

Hi everyone!

I was recently shadowing an MD and he tried to get me to stray away from DO. His reasoning was that California medicine is becoming more and more competitive in California and he said that DOs will have a harder time in the future finding jobs. He even stated it is already challenging being in Cali as a DO. Is there any accuracy to this statment, or was this he just a prejudiced MD?

If California medicine is becoming more and more competitive in California, is California medicine less competitive if you practice it in neighboring states?

 

[IDK22]

Getting a job in medicine is highly linked to who you know, not what your credentials necessarily are. Make good connections with people early on and throughout your career and you can practice wherever you choose.

Also, I think it depends on specialty and a variety of other factors as well. Bottom line, though: become a doctor, make connections, get good training, and I doubt anything will stop you whether you are an M.D. or a D.O.

 

[OrdinaryDO]

This doesn't pertain to California specifically, but while shadowing some anesthesia D.O.'s I inadvertently fell into conversation with many surgeons along the way. One of which is very respected in the area (note that this was a major city), the first thing he said to me when I told him where I wanted to attend (which, of course, is a D.O. school) was "don't listen to what anyone f***ing says about them, they are just as good as any other doctor" ("them" as in D.O.'s). The prior context of our conversation had nothing to do with osteopathic medicine, so it made me feel good to know that these older doctors are aligning with the modern norms of medicine. These days there isn't much difference between an osteopathic and allopathic physician with the exception of some well respected MD schools, but that concept applies to any kind of secondary education. We are all one in the same, this isn't a pissing contest. Heck, I love the D.O. community for what it is. When you I see a D.O. I always have that "hey, you too!?" moment, as if we had grown up together in some small town that no one has ever heard of. It is a unique feeling, even if I'm not a D.O. yet.

 

[Seth Joo]

Getting a job in medicine is highly linked to who you know, not what your credentials necessarily are. Make good connections with people early on and throughout your career and you can practice wherever you choose.

Also, I think it depends on specialty and a variety of other factors as well. Bottom line, though: become a doctor, make connections, get good training, and I doubt anything will stop you whether you are an M.D. or a D.O.

That train of thinking is way too open minded, there are regions of the country where being a DO can keep you from getting a job and California is among those places where its tough going for DOs but its possible for DOs to work there under the circumstances that I mentioned, you have to either go for primary care, work in rural areas, or work in inner city communities, this is more doable in Southern California than in Northern California, mostly because Southern California has more areas that are areas of "need" and has a much bigger population as well.

When most people mention they want to work in that state they usually want to work in LA, San Francisco, and San Diego, but California is much bigger than that.

Its not like the Midwest, where there are DOs in all the specialties, in academic medical centers, in all the advanced fields of medicine.

 

[hallowmann]

That train of thinking is way too open minded, there are regions of the country where being a DO can keep you from getting a job and California is among those places where its tough going for DOs but its possible for DOs to work there under the circumstances that I mentioned, you have to either go for primary care, work in rural areas, or work in inner city communities, this is more doable in Southern California than in Northern California, mostly because Southern California has more areas that are areas of "need" and has a much bigger population as well.

When most people mention they want to work in that state they usually want to work in LA, San Francisco, and San Diego, but California is much bigger than that.

Its not like the Midwest, where there are DOs in all the specialties, in academic medical centers, in all the advanced fields of medicine.

There are TONS of DOs working in CA. They're a small percentage of the physician population, but its mainly because (1) the majority of DOs before the 1960s became MDs (along with the other changes then) and (2) there's a huge number of physicians in CA as a whole, they have a bunch of CA MD schools as well as a ton of foreign grads, etc.

In any case, I personally know many DOs in multiple fields in CA (and by that I mean LA and SD) that have had no issues getting jobs after an ACGME residency. Getting a good academic residency in CA may be difficult as a DO, but getting a job as a DO in CA is as difficult as getting any BC/BE requiring physician job in the state. Its a saturated market, so yeah its not easy, but that's true for MDs too. Being a DO physician post-ACGME residency is not going to significantly affect your job prospects compared to a similarly trained MD.

 

[trev5150]

(and by that I mean LA and SD)

And by that you mentioned two of three massively diffuse geographical/cultural areas in CA. Everywhere in CA can basically be thought of as LA, SD or SF.

 

[Henry101]

Its not like the Midwest, where there are DOs in all the specialties, in academic medical centers, in all the advanced fields of medicine.

really?

 

[solitarius]

This obviously depends on what you want to do:

1. FM / uncompetitive specialty?
2. Open to large parts of the state?
3. Even in coastal Cal, open to community-level practice or working in high need areas?

really?

I challenge you to live in middle America.

 

[hallowmann]

And by that you mentioned two of three massively diffuse geographical/cultural areas in CA. Everywhere in CA can basically be thought of as LA, SD or SF.

I was specifying areas where I know many DOs working. I have very few medical contacts in SF or the rural areas of CA (maybe 1 or 2 in Fresno). I wasn't saying that's all of what CA is nor was I saying that I know every DO in every area of LA or SD. I just know many specialists and FM/IM docs in those areas, including many DOs.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

You'll be lucky if they let you be an NP's assistant as a DO even in rural Wyoming. Count your blessings. California, hah.

 

[Seth Joo]

I was specifying areas where I know many DOs working. I have very few medical contacts in SF or the rural areas of CA (maybe 1 or 2 in Fresno). I wasn't saying that's all of what CA is nor was I saying that I know every DO in every area of LA or SD. I just know many specialists and FM/IM docs in those areas, including many DOs.

California is not a place with a lot of opportunity for DOs compared to places like the Midwest or even Southeast. That being said a DO can find plenty of work in California if they are willing to accept certain conditions that I outlined in my prior post. Getting a residency in California as a DO that is not Family Practice, Community IM, or another low demand field, is another issue. That being said, even if you did not complete residency training in California it does not preclude you from finding work there.

You mentioned there are no problems for DOs with ACGME residency training finding jobs in California that is true, but that presents a problem for DOs with AOA training in the state. As I said DOs with such training will wind up limited to rural and inner city areas in California which exist as they do in the other 49 US states.

From my own knowledge my own state is more hostile to DOs than California, my hometown does not have a single DO school despite having over 100 colleges and universities including two of the best in the world.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

California is not a place with a lot of opportunity for DOs compared to places like the Midwest or even Southeast. That being said a DO can find plenty of work in California if they are willing to accept certain conditions that I outlined in my prior post. Getting a residency in California as a DO that is not Family Practice, Community IM, or another low demand field, is another issue. That being said, even if you did not complete residency training in California it does not preclude you from finding work there.

You mentioned there are no problems for DOs with ACGME residency training finding jobs in California that is true, but that presents a problem for DOs with AOA training in the state. As I said DOs with such training will wind up limited to rural and inner city areas in California which exist as they do in the other 49 US states.

From my own knowledge my own state is more hostile to DOs than California, my hometown does not have a single DO school despite having over 100 colleges and universities including two of the best in the world.

I'm going to call bull**** on your entire post. I go to comp and a lot of our faculty practices in very nice and rich areas. Getting a job as a DO is no different than as an MD.

 

[hallowmann]

I'm going to call bull**** on your entire post. I go to comp and a lot of our faculty practices in very nice and rich areas. Getting a job as a DO is no different than as an MD.

This. I'm sorry, but you don't have to be a rural/inner-city FM doc to get a job as a DO in CA. Yeah, AOA trained physicians (currently <45% of all DO graduates nowadays) may experience more difficulty getting certain jobs, but many of them also have no problem working in CA as well. Board certification is the main hindrance, and by the time OP graduates all residencies will be ACGME accredited with eligibility to sit for the ABMS boards.

 

[Seth Joo]

I'm going to call bull**** on your entire post. I go to comp and a lot of our faculty practices in very nice and rich areas. Getting a job as a DO is no different than as an MD.

Are these faculty members of yours specialists? Are they ACGME board certified?

I am under the assumption that most of them are primary care physicians or OMM practitioners. I said that its possible to work wherever you want in California as a primary care physician as a DO. As a specialist, particularly one trained at an AOA program, its harder.

I never said there were no opportunities in CA for DOs I just was comparing it to the Midwest where there is a lot more opportunity. I have a lot of classmates from California and most of them tell me that if they work there they can increase their income working in inner city or rural areas.

Also the Midwest is the place where DOs are like MDs, you see DOs in every area of practice at every level, many who are CEOs of major medical centers, I doubt you will see a DO running Harbor UCLA any time soon.

 

[trev5150]

I love this. The guy has been in medical school for a month and already an expert on the entire landscape of DO medicine countrywide.

 

[hallowmann]

Funny you should mention Harbor UCLA, because while there I met multiple DO residents in specialties and FM, as well as some DO attendings in those specialties. Didn't even realize they were DOs until I mentioned where I went and they said things like "Oh, I went to XYZ - COM".

The major hospitals are quite frankly not where most physicians work. Most have their own practices, and just have contacts and credentials at the hospitals.

Of course getting a job is easier in the midwest than in CA. That's true whether you're an MD or DO. That's not the same as saying you need to be a PCP in an inner-city to get a job as a DO in CA (essentially what you continue to imply).

 

[Dr. Death]

I love this. The guy has been in medical school for a month and already an expert on the entire landscape of DO medicine countrywide.

Not to mention the foremost expert in the field of DO education

 

[trev5150]

Not to mention the foremost expert in the field of DO education

IKR. Haunting the Pre forum to boot.

 

[Seth Joo]

Funny you should mention Harbor UCLA, because while there I met multiple DO residents in specialties and FM, as well as some DO attendings in those specialties. Didn't even realize they were DOs until I mentioned where I went and they said things like "Oh, I went to XYZ - COM".

The major hospitals are quite frankly not where most physicians work. Most have their own practices, and just have contacts and credentials at the hospitals.

Of course getting a job is easier in the midwest than in CA. That's true whether you're an MD or DO. That's not the same as saying you need to be a PCP in an inner-city to get a job as a DO in CA (essentially what you continue to imply).

Actually that is not what I said, you can get a job, but to make more money you might have to go to less desirable locales as a DO in California. The Midwest has traditionally been a lot more open to DOs than the coastal cities and states.

You mentioned a major caveat to getting a job in CA, an ACGME residency, which is tough for DOs in certain programs. Primary care ACGME residencies are easy to get as a DO, specialties are harder.

 

[MisterFutu]

I love this. The guy has been in medical school for a month and already an expert on the entire landscape of DO medicine countrywide.

Ad Hominem - an argument directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining

libel - false statement that is damaging to a person's reputation. Seth Joo claims he is a fourth year at a D.O. school.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Are these faculty members of yours specialists? Are they ACGME board certified?

I am under the assumption that most of them are primary care physicians or OMM practitioners. I said that its possible to work wherever you want in California as a primary care physician as a DO. As a specialist, particularly one trained at an AOA program, its harder.

I never said there were no opportunities in CA for DOs I just was comparing it to the Midwest where there is a lot more opportunity. I have a lot of classmates from California and most of them tell me that if they work there they can increase their income working in inner city or rural areas.

Also the Midwest is the place where DOs are like MDs, you see DOs in every area of practice at every level, many who are CEOs of major medical centers, I doubt you will see a DO running Harbor UCLA any time soon.

We've had a lot of neurosurgeons, pathologists, PM&Rs, neurologists, orthos and others come lecture at our school. None of them are in some boondock shack or middle of compton.

Your friends working in inner cities and rural areas are making more money because by default those places pay more regardless of MD or DO. There is no place where DOs are being paid less than an equal MD. Remember DOs of the past are not like us. They would go to DO school because they wanted to be DOs. They weren't trying to save themselves from residency shortages, so it's reasonable many may have wanted to practice in those areas.

Sure, I doubt I'll see a DO running Harbor UCLA anytime soon too, but that's only one job that has an academic tradition. Making a leap from "you can't run UCLA Harbor" to "so go work in inner city PCP or middle of nowhere" is preposterous.

Please stop this myth that DOs can't practice in some places. After your residency hurdle, you are a free agent.

 

[Goro]

The guy is a *****, ignore him. Plenty of my grads have found jobs in CA.

Hi everyone!

I was recently shadowing an MD and he tried to get me to stray away from DO. His reasoning was that California medicine is becoming more and more competitive in California and he said that DOs will have a harder time in the future finding jobs. He even stated it is already challenging being in Cali as a DO. Is there any accuracy to this statment, or was this he just a prejudiced MD?

 

[trev5150]

Ad Hominem - an argument directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining

libel - false statement that is damaging to a person's reputation. Seth Joo claims he is a fourth year at a D.O. school.

ir·rel·e·vant
əˈreləvənt/
adjective

1. not connected with or relevant to something.
   synonyms: beside the point, immaterial, not pertinent, not germane, off the subject, unconnected, unrelated, peripheral, extraneous, inapposite, inapplicable

 

[trev5150]

Ad Hominem - an argument directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining

libel - false statement that is damaging to a person's reputation. Seth Joo claims he is a fourth year at a D.O. school.

The position has not a lick of merit. Just because he refuses to give up on his premise doesn't make him right. He's running his game off internet argument rules: be noisy and wait for the other guy to give up first. He has no real quantifiable data to back any of his claims up.

 

[Throwaway692015]

Hi all,

Figured I would revive this thread rather than start a new one. How would this job market change if it was a psychiatrist as a DO? No problem in California?

 

[Goro]

I've had students go into Psych and land in CA.

Hi all,

Figured I would revive this thread rather than start a new one. How would this job market change if it was a psychiatrist as a DO? No problem in California?

 

[Throwaway692015]

I've had students go into Psych and land in CA.

Cool thanks!

 

[Mad Jack]

Hi all,

Figured I would revive this thread rather than start a new one. How would this job market change if it was a psychiatrist as a DO? No problem in California?

Psych is hurting for people all throughout the country. Regardless of specialty though, being a DO has virtually zero impact on whether you get a job or not. The only time it's ever an issue is at top tier academic places, but even there it is often department-by-department. In the past, surgeons, radiologists, and anesthesiologists trained in AOA programs were viewed as having substandard training, but those programs won't exist anymore by the time you match, so it's a non-issue. 99.9% of the time, where you trained is far more important than where you went to school in the hiring process. Your medical school is about as important to the person doing your hiring as your undergrad alma mater is to the person picking you for residency, basically.

 

[Mad Jack]

We've had a lot of neurosurgeons, pathologists, PM&Rs, neurologists, orthos and others come lecture at our school. None of them are in some boondock shack or middle of compton.

Your friends working in inner cities and rural areas are making more money because by default those places pay more regardless of MD or DO. There is no place where DOs are being paid less than an equal MD. Remember DOs of the past are not like us. They would go to DO school because they wanted to be DOs. They weren't trying to save themselves from residency shortages, so it's reasonable many may have wanted to practice in those areas.

Sure, I doubt I'll see a DO running Harbor UCLA anytime soon too, but that's only one job that has an academic tradition. Making a leap from "you can't run UCLA Harbor" to "so go work in inner city PCP or middle of nowhere" is preposterous.

Please stop this myth that DOs can't practice in some places. After your residency hurdle, you are a free agent.

While you aren't geographically limited, some top academic places can and will discriminate against you. If you want to be chief of IM at MGH someday, it just ain't happening. Most academic places will be open to taking you, but certain places do discriminate.

 

[Stagg737]

While you aren't geographically limited, some top academic places can and will discriminate against you. If you want to be chief of IM at MGH someday, it just ain't happening. Most academic places will be open to taking you, but certain places do discriminate.

True, but I doubt MGH would even consider graduates from low-tier MD or some mid-tiers schools for that position either. Cue ivory towers speech blah blah blah.

 

[NoTownPreMed]

Finding a job in the California market would never be a deal breaker for my part should I get into a DO program. Besides, I've lived in the state of California all my life and the shortage of physicians are REAL.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

While you aren't geographically limited, some top academic places can and will discriminate against you. If you want to be chief of IM at MGH someday, it just ain't happening. Most academic places will be open to taking you, but certain places do discriminate.

You didn't even read what I wrote it would have seen I addressed this.

 

[hallowmann]

Psych is hurting for people all throughout the country. Regardless of specialty though, being a DO has virtually zero impact on whether you get a job or not. The only time it's ever an issue is at top tier academic places, but even there it is often department-by-department. In the past, surgeons, radiologists, and anesthesiologists trained in AOA programs were viewed as having substandard training, but those programs won't exist anymore by the time you match, so it's a non-issue. 99.9% of the time, where you trained is far more important than where you went to school in the hiring process. Your medical school is about as important to the person doing your hiring as your undergrad alma mater is to the person picking you for residency, basically.

Psychiatry is hurting for people so badly everywhere, that I doubt even an AOA trained psychiatrist would have an issue getting a job almost anywhere in CA. The more time I spend in it, the more I see how utterly understaffed from the top-down psych units and practices seem to be. People wait months to get a 15 min appointment with a psychiatrist (and some of these people honestly can't afford to be waiting that long), and it seems like it's that way everywhere.

 

[Mad Jack]

Psychiatry is hurting for people so badly everywhere, that I doubt even an AOA trained psychiatrist would have an issue getting a job almost anywhere in CA. The more time I spend in it, the more I see how utterly understaffed from the top-down psych units and practices seem to be. People wait months to get a 15 min appointment with a psychiatrist (and some of these people honestly can't afford to be waiting that long), and it seems like it's that way everywhere.

The only AOA residencies that had heavy discrimination against them were surgery, anesthesia, and rads. Almost all the rest of them were considered okay and wouldn't really hurt your shot at a job, psych included.

 

[Mad Jack]

You didn't even read what I wrote it would have seen I addressed this.

I was seconding your point, not disagreeing.