California residencies

[IlianaSedai]

Can anyone explain (to an MSII) the trend with California residencies? Been told they're hard to land from out of state for certain specialties, is this true across the board? Am a registered CA resident but at an out-of-state med school.

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[magicman]

I'm not sure, but meditate on the One Power and look out for the Black Ajah. If all else fails, don't read the last couple Robert Jordan books, which have been particularly horrendous.

 

[gimmedog]

I'm also from CA and applying now for EM. I think it's harder to get residencies in CA because people from CA tend to want to stay (or in your case, come back--and there are many people in this situation). On top of that, other people want to live here, too. On the interview trail, lots of people wanted to escape the snow.

That being said, it's not impossible to get a CA residency from out of state. Plenty of people do it. It's probably specialty dependent and dependent on how particular you are about programs. If you're focused only on academic programs, it will obviously be harder than if you also considered community programs too. Also, outside of the major cities, it's generally less competitive. The San Joaquin Valley is still very underserved.

 

[IlianaSedai]

Well, I'm not stuck on academic programs, but I will hafta admit San Joaquin Valley is not my idea of where to move. Bay Area is a bit tight for residency competition though, isn't it?

 

[secretwave101]

I've been working on this issue for awhile now as residency approached for me. Here's what I've gathered from a couple of friends who've made it (as FMG's, incidentally):

In terms of strict competition for residency spots, that fluctuates just like anywhere else. The typical rules apply (academic, urban generally more competitive). Often, you can find stats on applications received vs. positions offered and do the math yourself.

The problem with CA is their licensing board requirements, which are above and beyond the requirements to get a residency. You need the dreaded "California Letter", which is granted by the CA licensing board and the residency programs have nothing to do with this. So, you can get accepted to a CA residency thru the match, the program could love you and be ready for you to start, but it will be illegal because you don't have your CA letter.

I'm a CA resident, but an FMG, so I'm describing what is needed for types like me. Maybe out of state but USMG's don't need the letter. As I understand, however, there are additional problems for everyone who is not a CAMG created by the licensing board. They do this for the simple reason that doctors per capita in CA are about as dense as it gets, and they're trying to thin things out.

Just my take on the issue. Maybe it helps. Good luck.

 

[beyond all hope]

Cali is competative for everyone, including californians. Lots of people want to live in Cali. There are few programs and many people who want them. Simple math. No prejudice.

Yes, USFMGs need the California letter. It's not that hard to get, the trick is to start the process BEFORE you match, or you will never be finished in time to start your residency. If you are only applying in Cali, send you stuff in early. If you are applying in more than one place (like I did), gather up all of the many documents you need, and if you end up in Cali, send it off on Match Day.

Don't get your hopes set on Cali unless you are an excellent applicant. You may end up in Iowa after all.

 

[djipopo]

i'd like to know too, can anyone in the know respond to this?

 

[bof]

California is definately more competitve than other parts of the country (eg. midwest, southeast). I would say that California and NYC are two of the most competitive places in the country. You should be able to get a spot for IM or anesthesiology if you are willing to go to a community program. Academic programs are more competitive and it definately helps to be from California. Most people that interview have some Cali connection. Interviews tend to be somewhat regional anyway. You'll always get more interviews in your region or hometown than from some place thousands of miles away. The cavet is that if you are a stellar canidate you'll get interviews anywhere.

Can someone enlighten me on the residency application process for cali schools. Is it very competitive? Can i still get a spot if i'm looking into an averagely competitve to somewhat competitve field (i.e. internal medicine or anesthesiology?). Or is all of Southern california nearly impossible to match into? Does it hurt to not be originally from california? Thanks for the replies in advance.

 

[otosmileys]

I heard the same thing about California schools too when I was applying to residency. I was told that if I didn't do an away rotation out there I probably didn't stand a chance at matching, let alone getting an interview offer. Luckily, that isn't entirely the case. Having never been in the state of California except for vacation pit stops, I am excited to say that I just matched into a California program for otolaryngology, which is a very competitive specialty. I applied to 5 schools in California, received offers from 4, interviewed at 3, and matched. I don't have AOA and my step was just a little above the average step score for ENT, and never did an away rotation anywhere. It's true that most California schools tend to invite more people from California but that doesn't mean you won't get an invite. Several of my other friends have also matched into California schools in the past even though they aren't from Cali. Keep your hopes up. Just because the specialties are competitive doesn't mean you should avoid them. Don't just settle for a community program because you think you don't stand a chance. You never know what luck will roll your way. =)

And whatever you do, keep on smiling! It's not over till the fat lady sings...

 

[scootad.]

Something smells fishy about the above. But you must have had some connection to cali, like claiming you had a fiancee with family from there or perhaps you graduated from harvard or hopkins or matched in the mountains of northern cali.

 

[neilc]

Something smells fishy about the above. But you must have had some connection to cali, like claiming you had a fiancee with family from there or perhaps you graduated from harvard or hopkins or matched in the mountains of northern cali.

i buy it. i have been rotating all around cali, and there are LOTS of folks that are in residency and had never been here before, no special connections.

if you are a strong candidate, nobody is going to care all that much about where you are from. they will just be happy to get you in the program. i mean, really...think about it logically. a PD gives you an interview, meets with you, likes you and thinks you will be an asset to the program...and then, "whoopsie! this guy has no CA connection....well, gotta find somebody else".

 

[otosmileys]

Something smells fishy about the above. But you must have had some connection to cali, like claiming you had a fiancee with family from there or perhaps you graduated from harvard or hopkins or matched in the mountains of northern cali.

Think what you like. I don't feel like I need to justify myself to someone who just can't be happy for someone who did well. If I'm to be called a liar for posting some hope for others like myself, then I won't make anymore posts. People who are interested can just PM me and I'll pass on my experience that way.

But for the skeptical that must know, I have no ties to California or the west coast for that matter, just the desire to live there. At most I only have a few friends from school in the state. Nothing more. And no, I am not at a top 10 medical school but I will be for residency. But I'll tell you what I do have. Outstanding LORs from well-known people in the field, a captivating personal statement (from what I've been told by multiple programs), very active extracurricular involvement, and an ENT publication, one poster and another this upcoming spring. The goal of your application is to get the interview offer -- do whatever it takes. My strategy was through my personal statement -- get the readers hooked on wanting to get to know me better by inviting me to their program. Numbers I've been told are only at most an initial cut-off for interviews. After that, you gotta shine on the big day.

I posted my comments earlier because I disagree that people should not apply to California schools because they think they have no chance. I was told the same thing, but I chose to ignore it and take the risk, and I'm ecstatic with the result. I couldn't have asked for a better match.

Good luck to all with the upcoming match. It's a stressful period but once it's over you'll be celebrating like there's no tomorrow. =)

 

[docB]

The thing about CA is that it has so many good to great universities (the UCs, Stanford, et al.) that there are plenty of top notch home grown people to fill all the med school and then residency spots. Lots of people have to go on the road to med school and many of them want to go back to CA for residency. This is what makes it so competitive. That said it is possible to match into a CA program without being tied to the state. Many in my residency class had no ties at all. It all just goes to show that no rule is 100% in the match game.

 

[cammy1313]

Does anyone know if attending medical school in California provides any sort of edge for matching to a Cali residency? The reason I ask is that I'll be an MSI this fall and am trying to determine if going to a non-ranked med school in state (Cali) would put me at an advantage or disadvantage compared to attending a ranked school out of state. Any thoughts?

 

[Lara]

So what can someone with zero California ties (I grew up in Montreal until moving to PA for med school, all my relatives are on the East Coast or Chicago and I haven't so much as passed through an airport in the state) do to help their chances...especially with average stats? How can you convince the programs that you're really willing to relocate far away from everything/everyone you know?

Hypothetical question as I doubt I'd seriously end up there, but I'm curious. All I can think of is an away rotation (going into peds) and personalizing the PS for California...but surely I'd have to speak of something other than the nice weather. I do speak Spanish, but don't know how much of an advantage that really is.

 

[docB]

So what can someone with zero California ties (I grew up in Montreal until moving to PA for med school, all my relatives are on the East Coast or Chicago and I haven't so much as passed through an airport in the state) do to help their chances...especially with average stats? How can you convince the programs that you're really willing to relocate far away from everything/everyone you know?

Hypothetical question as I doubt I'd seriously end up there, but I'm curious. All I can think of is an away rotation (going into peds) and personalizing the PS for California...but surely I'd have to speak of something other than the nice weather. I do speak Spanish, but don't know how much of an advantage that really is.

I'd say the Spanish will be a big help. I don't think that you'll have trouble convincing them that you will move. They're used to everyone wanting to be there. I'd also say the whole CA thing comes down to what you can add to the program, not so much how tied to the state you are.

BTW I think there are two threads running on this forum about this.

 

[Winged Scapula]

BTW I think there are two threads running on this forum about this.

Yes, there are. Thank you. I'll merge them.

 

[deleted4401]

California is kind of strange for this process. I, too, have zero ties to CA, but am somewhat interested in living there ... I got two categorical interviews in Los Angeles (for rad-onc), but was negged for every transitional/prelim I applied to (St. Mary's Long Beach, Santa Barbara Cottage, Scripps/San Diego). Not even an interview! I can't figure this stuff out at all! Oh well ... Are those even competitive programs? I just looked at location and clicked.

Simul

 

[otosmileys]

California is kind of strange for this process. I, too, have zero ties to CA, but am somewhat interested in living there ... I got two categorical interviews in Los Angeles (for rad-onc), but was negged for every transitional/prelim I applied to (St. Mary's Long Beach, Santa Barbara Cottage, Scripps/San Diego). Not even an interview! I can't figure this stuff out at all! Oh well ... Are those even competitive programs? I just looked at location and clicked.

Simul

I don't know about St. Mary's or Santa Barbara, but I've heard that Scripps/San Diego is a highly sought after transitional program because of the relatively better hours compared to other transitional programs, and it's San Diego -- who wouldn't want to live there? In general, transitional programs are harder to get into than prelim medicine which are typically harder than prelim surgery (mind you, i'm not talking about the categorical positions, which are harder than prelim positions). Why? Most people in specialties that only require a transitional year at most prefer the transitional programs which have better hours than any of the prelim programs (fewer months with call, etc). However, there are not enough transitional programs to account for all residents entering these specialties and inevitably there will be people doing internal medicine for their intern year, and worse yet, even fewer who end up doing gen surg for internship. I know two people who ended up in Gen Surg for internship -- one was at a prominent institution for radiology, the other was going into anesthesiology. There are two transitional programs in our city in the south, one of them is definitely populated by residents with AOA, 260+ step I, etc. Otherwise you got a flat out rejection. That just goes to show how it may be even more competitive it is than some of your more competitive specialties. The fact that you're applying to transitional programs in California as are the rest of the world makes it all the harder to get an interview with them. With that being said, one of my friends did his transitional year at Scripps and like myself, had absolutely no ties to the state, so it's not impossible. Then again, he's a genius.

 

[otosmileys]

Does anyone know if attending medical school in California provides any sort of edge for matching to a Cali residency? The reason I ask is that I'll be an MSI this fall and am trying to determine if going to a non-ranked med school in state (Cali) would put me at an advantage or disadvantage compared to attending a ranked school out of state. Any thoughts?

First off, as someone who isn't yet an MSI, you won't know your chances until you're well underway in medical school. Stats they look for on residency apps -- USMLE Step 1 (maybe Step 2 as well), med school grades, honors. They will look at your undergrad record though it's much less important. No one ever saw or asked me for my MCAT score during the entire process. So what you should be doing is no matter what school you pick to do the best that you can so you've got a strong application.

It's true that you may have a relatively higher chance of getting interviews from California residencies than others who come from a SIMILARLY ranked out of state school. However, you can't underestimate the training from a highly-ranked out of state school. You will get letters of recommendations from well-respected folks in the field, and that is crucial to matching well. You probably will do better on your boards with the more thorough training. They also know that you're at a strong institution with other great students, so not being AOA is not as big a deal as coming from a lesser name school. You may have fewer California interviews, but they will come from the stronger programs as opposed to community programs, as they may not be as concerned with trying to convince you to move out there. They know they're California, and they know everyone wants to be at their program, so they get their pick of the litter. When I interviewed at Stanford, UCSF, and UCSD, at most half, if not fewer, of the interview slots were filled by California students.