Calling schools for advice

[uproarhz]

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Hi everyone,

I was just wondering what you guys think of calling MSTP programs that reject you for advice on how to improve your app?! I know this is not a good idea for straight MD programs just cause of the huge number of applications they get. But I imagine this would be less of a problem at MD/PhD programs since they get 10 times less the number of apps?

I just got my pre-interview rejection at Cornell which took me by surprise. I was hoping for at least a chance at the interview. So I was thinking of calling them. Anyone have an idea about this? Particularly how are the people at Cornell's adcom? Anyone knows if they are particularly nice or not?

Also, anyone with insider view willing to take a look at my stats and application specifics and take a guess at why I got rejected so early? PM me if you can.

I know this is a dumb question, but what can I say... 😳 this process makes you desperate and sure plays with your ego at times

 

[ninebillion]

My philosophy on this is, "It can't hurt." You've already been rejected, so you're not taking any risks by calling up and asking for feedback on your application. Good luck!

 

[stillsmilin]

consider it cornell's loss. i'm no expert on MSTP admissions, but there are just so few slots that it's going to be a very very random process. so you could call them, but they might not know or they might not want to tell you the real reason, something petty or totally out of your control. it all has to be taken with a grain of salt . . . or for the applicants applying to 15+ schools, with the real deal: a saltshaker

BUT an fyi is that my premed advisor once told me that applicants are allowed to petition for consideration at any one stage in the application process for ONE school . . . dont know how this works though, maybe someone else has info

 

[uproarhz]

consider it cornell's loss. i'm no expert on MSTP admissions, but there are just so few slots that it's going to be a very very random process. so you could call them, but they might not know or they might not want to tell you the real reason, something petty or totally out of your control. it all has to be taken with a grain of salt . . . or for the applicants applying to 15+ schools, with the real deal: a saltshaker

Haha, this is funny... Yes a saltshaker indeed!!! 😀 Thanks for the positive words 🙂

BUT an fyi is that my premed advisor once told me that applicants are allowed to petition for consideration at any one stage in the application process for ONE school . . . dont know how this works though, maybe someone else has info

I don't think I am going to petition now cause I don't think I am THE bomb to think "how could Cornell possibly not want me?!" I understand how the application process becomes so random at some point... 🙁 But I am curious about what you sair regarding petitioning. Did you mean that an applicant can petition for reconsideration for ONE school only? Is that why you put the ONE in capitals?
Thanks for the info....

and thanks for your thoughts too ninebillion. I do think I will give them a call any way. Since I have to wait till Monday to do that though, I am curious what sort of response to anticipate: "Ummm... we don't know or care!" or "Sure... we think you sucked because of blah blah blah... now go fix it if you can"

To the people who already got their interviews there (leverpro and someone else I can't remember now?!): I envy you. I think the Tri-I program rocks (no hard feelings here 😉 )

 

[ninebillion]

I do think I will give them a call any way. Since I have to wait till Monday to do that though, I am curious what sort of response to anticipate: "Ummm... we don't know or care!" or "Sure... we think you sucked because of blah blah blah... now go fix it if you can"

Actually, I received a letter of rejection in September from one school, and I was caught completely off guard. I figured that calling the admissions office couldn't hurt (what could they do, reject me again?), and when I talked to the office person, she said that my submitted application actually had an essay left blank, and they had gone through and rejected all applicants with portions left incomplete. I could have sworn I wrote and submitted that essay, so I pulled it up and emailed it to the office person, who was surprised to get it while on the phone with me. She looked at it and saw I was serious, then forwarded it to the admissions director. Within 24 hours, my file was reopened.

I feel that if I spend anywhere from $50 to $100 on an application, I have the right to ask for and receive feedback on why I am rejected. It's the least a school can do after cashing my check. And who knows, sometimes you might get lucky like I did!

 

[uproarhz]

Man that is such a good story!!! It is awesome that you were able to get your file re-opened 👍 This definitely makes me feel more convinced to call them. Though I seriously doubt I would get a break like that (their application wasn't long and from what I recall didn't have too many questions that I could have left blank). But nonetheless, this is encouraging 🙂
Thanks for sharing it

Actually, I received a letter of rejection in September from one school, and I was caught completely off guard. I figured that calling the admissions office couldn't hurt (what could they do, reject me again?), and when I talked to the office person, she said that my submitted application actually had an essay left blank, and they had gone through and rejected all applicants with portions left incomplete. I could have sworn I wrote and submitted that essay, so I pulled it up and emailed it to the office person, who was surprised to get it while on the phone with me. She looked at it and saw I was serious, then forwarded it to the admissions director. Within 24 hours, my file was reopened.

I feel that if I spend anywhere from $50 to $100 on an application, I have the right to ask for and receive feedback on why I am rejected. It's the least a school can do after cashing my check. And who knows, sometimes you might get lucky like I did!

 

[fyli260]

Cornell rejection caught me by surprise too. Like you, I don't think I'm a perfect candidate. Instead of calling them, I took my secondary to my premed advisor to ask him to review it. He pointed out a couple things that might be wrong with it, but I'm not sure that should be good enough for them to reject me pre-interview. I had six years of research experience with publications. I know someone else with great research background had earlier posted a rejection from Cornell as well. In any case, I was over with it when I got my UCSF interview the next week (and darn, did this caught me by surprise as well). I'm no longer that bitter about my Cornell rejection anymore, but I would like to know what they tell you. Regardless of what they say, I just want to let you know that you're not the only one who got caught by their saltshaker.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

Speaking of interviews and rejections, I just wanted to add my 0.02 to the thread. As I ventured through the whole application process, I started to realize more and more that like med school applications, MSTP applications are a bit of a crapshoot too.

It's weird...there were some students who I thought (and I stress this subjective aspect of my thinking) were better and worse than me. Like many of you, I had good grades and MCAT scores (4.0/36) at a high quality institution. I also had 3 publications to back up 2.5 years of research experience. I was getting rejected from some schools that would interview people with lower grades, lower scores, and no publications. On the other hand, I was getting interviews from places where gods with 43-45 on MCAT were getting accepted. Back then in the stone ages, we didn't have sophisticated internet capabilities so we didn't have things like SDN...all we had were word of mouth from the 8 of us at my school who were applying MD/PhD.

At the end, we all felt blessed that we would be matriculating at places we really were happy with (two WashU, a Harvard, one UCSF, me at Michigan, one at Hopkins, one at UWash, etc.). We all talked about where we got rejected from and where we had interviewed at and gotten acceptance letters from. We concluded that there is a randomness factor in the whole application process. Go figure, some programs put value on different aspects of the application than others. It's not computers looking at your applications; people are looking at your applications and they will do so subjectively. Hence, you will get rejected from places where you think you shouldn't be rejected. Conversely, you will get interviews from places you thought were a reach.

From looking at the interview thread, you guys and gals seem to be knockin off interviews at some really premier institutions. Judging from that, you must all have strong applications and will do well. Since I go to Michigan, I'll also just add that our admissions folk are really happy with those who are interviewing here in the weeks to come. The program director here has told me that the quality of applicants has continued to steadily rise over the years. Pat yourselves on the back, go to the bar, and down a few.

 

[stillsmilin]

Did you mean that an applicant can petition for reconsideration for ONE school only?

for example, you could petition to get a secondary from case or an interview from hopkins, but not both. you can only pick one stage of the process at one school for a given application year. i dont know exactly how it's done - - i guess i just know the rules. sorry if this was useless to you!! probably the others have given good advice about calling, best wishes

 

[Habari]

I just got my pre-interview rejection at Cornell which took me by surprise. I was hoping for at least a chance at the interview. So I was thinking of calling them. Anyone have an idea about this? Particularly how are the people at Cornell's adcom? Anyone knows if they are particularly nice or not?

sorry to hear about the cornell decision; i certainly wouldn't take it personally. they mentioned that they are getting a record number of applications this year (>400) and with ~70 interview slots, many highly qualified people won't get an interview, as people who are currently at great mstp's throughout the country, and didn't get an interview in previous years can attest. i've heard of people calling about interview rejections, appealing them, and later being admitted (rare), but as you know, there isn't a guarantee - so pursue this avenue at your discretion.

for example, you could petition to get a secondary from case or an interview from hopkins, but not both. you can only pick one stage of the process at one school for a given application year. i dont know exactly how it's done - - i guess i just know the rules. sorry if this was useless to you!! probably the others have given good advice about calling, best wishes

this is categorically false. you can appeal to as many schools at any point of the process from pre-interview rejections to post-interview rejections as often as you'd like. you can do so by calling/email/letter to the admissions committee/director/interviewer, _if_ you think that they have overlooked something, or that something you have to say will change their minds. the success of this strategy certainly is questionable, but again, it is up to you.

 

[Maebea]

You should let it go. It is the policy in our program, and probably most others, not to release information on the reasons for a rejection. The reason for this is not because we have anything to hide, but because part of your application file is confidential (i.e., the reference letters), we cannot possibly tell you all the factors considered in making the decision. We came to institute this policy the hard way: we used to respond to questions about our decisions, but we found that unless the reason was a sub-par MCAT or GPA, we could only say something like "your research was not as strong as that which we normally see in those accepted to the program". This did not help applicants much; in fact, it just frustrated them more. Admissions decisions are subjective. We hope that we make the right decision, but there is no guarantee. If we do make a mistake in rejecting you, it is certain that all the other MD-PhD programs will not repeat our mistake. Strong candidates always get in SOMEWHERE. It may not be your first choice institution, but if you are are a good candidate there will be a place for you in some MD-PhD program.

There is a bit of randomness in the MD-PhD admissions process, and you just have to accept that. There are probably a few applicants that get accepted by every program they apply to, but the vast majority do not. If you are accepted by 8 programs and rejected by two, assume that the two made a mistake and move on. You cannot devine why those 2 rejected you, so you should not lose sleep over it. Maybe they saw something in your application that they did not like, maybe they figured you were not real interested in their institution and did not want to waste an admission offer on you, maybe they were just a$$hole$; you can never be certain that you will know the real reason for their decision, so you should shrug it off and concentrate on the schools that want you. In the end, all you need is one acceptance; all the rest are merely background noise.

 

[xanthines]

I think this is true, to toss my opinion in.

I bet a lot of seemingly good applicants (4.0/45/10 years of research/39 pubs), don't get interviews because their applications are not convincing. Just copying your abstracts into your app doesn't really say what YOU did, even if you were the first author. I feel like leaving sections/questions blank looks suspicious and that adcoms are just going to assume the worst about you. I'm pretty sure an acquaintance didn't get into MSTPs (but into med school) because s/he didn't really want to do research and it probably showed in either the personal statement(s), the supplementals, or the letters of recommendation. I would think this is especially true for schools that want to train physican-SCIENTISTS and not PHYSICIAN-scientists. At these schools, they probably just want to know that you can get though the medical school portion of the program without causing them problems or embarassment. I mean, the ROI pretty much starts to decline after a certain point on the GPA/MCAT scale from an admissions committee point of view.

Then again, I'm neither an MSTP student or admissions committee member so I could be totally wrong!

Just my $00.02USD. Your mileage may vary.

-X

You should let it go. It is the policy in our program, and probably most others, not to release information on the reasons for a rejection. The reason for this is not because we have anything to hide, but because part of your application file is confidential (i.e., the reference letters), we cannot possibly tell you all the factors considered in making the decision. We came to institute this policy the hard way: we used to respond to questions about our decisions, but we found that unless the reason was a sub-par MCAT or GPA, we could only say something like "your research was not as strong as that which we normally see in those accepted to the program". This did not help applicants much; in fact, it just frustrated them more. Admissions decisions are subjective. We hope that we make the right decision, but there is no guarantee. If we do make a mistake in rejecting you, it is certain that all the other MD-PhD programs will not repeat our mistake. Strong candidates always get in SOMEWHERE. It may not be your first choice institution, but if you are are a good candidate there will be a place for you in some MD-PhD program.

There is a bit of randomness in the MD-PhD admissions process, and you just have to accept that. There are probably a few applicants that get accepted by every program they apply to, but the vast majority do not. If you are accepted by 8 programs and rejected by two, assume that the two made a mistake and move on. You cannot devine why those 2 rejected you, so you should not lose sleep over it. Maybe they saw something in your application that they did not like, maybe they figured you were not real interested in their institution and did not want to waste an admission offer on you, maybe they were just a$$hole$; you can never be certain that you will know the real reason for their decision, so you should shrug it off and concentrate on the schools that want you. In the end, all you need is one acceptance; all the rest are merely background noise.

 

[stillsmilin]

this is categorically false. you can appeal to as many schools at any point of the process from pre-interview rejections to post-interview rejections as often as you'd like.

hmmm . . . definitely not what i learned, but maybe the one school "rule" is more of a courtesy principle. it's crazy to petition everywhere, repeatedly, for everything

 

[Habari]

while i definately agree with maebea about letting it go, i didn't want people to think there was a 'rule' anywhere. it's wise not to continually appeal each decision at various places; at some point one will have to accept a decision and move on. as maebea said, a strong candidate will be accepted somewhere that they will probably be pleased with. this underscores the importance of not being singularly mentally committed to one place prior or during the process - keep an open mind.

hmmm . . . definitely not what i learned, but maybe the one school "rule" is more of a courtesy principle. it's crazy to petition everywhere, repeatedly, for everything

 

[b&ierstiefel]

I second Habari and the others. I'm not sure if there are enough stories out there of people appealing decisions and actually being successful (the extreme case being rejected at first but accepted at the end) to warrant encouraging people to appeal rejections on a regular basis. I am unaware of any "rules" regarding appeals but if these rules do exist, then that's something new I've learned.

 

[uproarhz]

I second Habari and the others. I'm not sure if there are enough stories out there of people appealing decisions and actually being successful (the extreme case being rejected at first but accepted at the end) to warrant encouraging people to appeal rejections on a regular basis. I am unaware of any "rules" regarding appeals but if these rules do exist, then that's something new I've learned.

I just want to re-emphasize that I am NOT trying to call the schools for APPEALING. I have accepted the decision by Cornell and by any other schools that might make a similar decision regarding my application in the future. What I am trying to get out of the call is to figure out if there are any red flags in the application that I have missed personally or any advice that could help me strengthen my appplication. Consider it just part of my paranoia 😳 . So I was trying to see if MD/PhD programs usually give out an honest response regarding this... From most of your responses it seems like the answer is no. I am going back and forth about this... but if I do call, I will post their response here for those who were interested.

Thanks everyone for sharing your ideas. I was certainly hoping to hear from you Habari (I think you're at Cornell, am I right?), but I really appreciate everyone's comments about this

good night to all 🙂

 

[b&ierstiefel]

oh stupid me. my bad. guess i misinterpreted the tenor of the earlier posts.

 

[stillsmilin]

I just got my pre-interview rejection at Cornell which took me by surprise.

yikes, me too! just arrived. but i read in the paper that a man was handcuffed and jailed for not paying good tip at a diner in nyc . . . imagine going to cornell, researching at rock, and then catching a bite on grad student stipend w/that kind of pressure!! either we'd be jailed every other wk and thus unproductive in lab, taking 20yrs to finish, or we'd pay the hefty tips, go broke, lose apt, and be forced to move into lab, getting all sorts of diseases from breathing the chemicals 24/7.

thank goodness for pre-interview rejections!

 

[uproarhz]

yikes, me too! just arrived. but i read in the paper that a man was handcuffed and jailed for not paying good tip at a diner in nyc . . . imagine going to cornell, researching at rock, and then catching a bite on grad student stipend w/that kind of pressure!! either we'd be jailed every other wk and thus unproductive in lab, taking 20yrs to finish, or we'd pay the hefty tips, go broke, lose apt, and be forced to move into lab, getting all sorts of diseases from breathing the chemicals 24/7.

thank goodness for pre-interview rejections!

I love your justification! It gave me a good laugh. Sorry you got the cut too. Maybe they got confused and rejected everyone 😕

Today I finally convinced myself to call them only to find out they don't give out info over the phone. So then I wrote this really nice kiss-@$$ e-mail asking them to see if they would shed light on anything. We'll see if they will ever reply. If they do, i will sure post it here.

 

[KenyanSimba]

Hi everyone,

I was just wondering what you guys think of calling MSTP programs that reject you for advice on how to improve your app?! I know this is not a good idea for straight MD programs just cause of the huge number of applications they get. But I imagine this would be less of a problem at MD/PhD programs since they get 10 times less the number of apps?

I just got my pre-interview rejection at Cornell which took me by surprise. I was hoping for at least a chance at the interview. So I was thinking of calling them. Anyone have an idea about this? Particularly how are the people at Cornell's adcom? Anyone knows if they are particularly nice or not?

Also, anyone with insider view willing to take a look at my stats and application specifics and take a guess at why I got rejected so early? PM me if you can.

I know this is a dumb question, but what can I say... 😳 this process makes you desperate and sure plays with your ego at times

Hi Everyone,
I have edited the post, cause vandy called me, responding to my voicemail. Apparently my MSTP application was "borderline " but the dean of admissions for the regular MD program loved it and so they decided to put me on the MSTP waitlist and make me switch my application to regular MD. They said they were doing this for my best interests as they think I am a really strong candidate for the MD prog. Talk about pleasant suprises! I never thought she would get back to me but she was quite amicable and lucid in explaining how the admissions process works. So I changed my status and await word from them.

La lutte continu!
Simba

 

[uproarhz]

So I said I will write what I hear from the Cornell people if I get any response. And I did. As expected it didn't contain anything that I hadn't heard. The bulk of the letter (which was from director Olaf Andersen) admitted that the process is subjective in many areas and that because of the nature of the LORs and committe deliberations they can't tell me why they cut me. So bottom line, unless you have anything new to add to your application in my opinion don't waste your time trying to figure anything out, cause you won't. Not that I expected anything different 😳