Campbell sets step 1 and 2 filter for MD student.

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I do not know what to say. obviously, it is a mistake. But, man, it is serious on ERAS, please be professional.
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Probably a reactionary motion toward NE IM programs still crapping on their students regardless of high Comlex but no USMLE.
 
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BorntobeDO? said:
Love it. Every DO ortho program should do this. Ditto Derm. Problem is that the 250 looks reasonable for both of those tho...
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Just make it required Comlex score for every former AOA ortho programs out there.

I fully support this kind of bushido considering that a lot of NE IM like NYU aren’t playing by the book anyway.
 
Black Coffee 24/7 said:
Just make it required Comlex score for every former AOA ortho programs out there.

I fully support this kind of bushido considering that a lot of NE IM like NYU aren’t playing by the book anyway.
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The Venture AOA ortho program has minimum COMLEX of 600 but minimum USMLE of 250. Feel like there will be more AOA ortho programs that follow suit
 
This program should get AT Still's "banner-to-the-breeze" pole out of their ass.
 
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AnatomyGrey12 said:
Dude what? Why? I have no problem with programs essentially staying DO only because that’s essentially what they are saying with that. All of our programs are going to do that too.
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I don't think there's anything wrong with programmes that were historically DO only continuing to have a strong preference for DO.

With that said, there's alot of b*tching on this forum about allopathic programmes being biased against DOs which I feel is a bit hypocritical.
 
Lexdiamondz said:
I don't think there's anything wrong with programmes that were historically DO only continuing to have a strong preference for DO.

With that said, there's alot of b*tching on this forum about allopathic programmes being biased against DOs which I feel is a bit hypocritical.
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When those programs stop throwing out DO apps, even when they are on par with or better than the MD apps they get, then we can talk about it being hypocritical.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
When those programs stop throwing out DO apps, even when they are on par with or better than the MD apps they get, then we can talk about it being hypocritical.
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Fair.

With that said, MDs have never been able to apply to DO programmes - in light of that I'm curious why the expectation that any pre-merger ACGME programmes should be open to DOs.
 
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Lexdiamondz said:
With that said, MDs have never been able to apply to DO programmes - in light of that I'm curious why the expectation that any pre-merger ACGME programmes should be open to DOs.
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And I'm in agreement. That is an expectation that I personally have never held. The AOA should have made sure there were enough AOA programs to encompass all DO students.
 
Lexdiamondz said:
I mean I don't think there are hordes of MDs clamouring to match at a DO programme with a 420 COMLEX minimum...truthfully most of those programmes aren't even on the average MDs radar.
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For ortho and derm you can bet they are on the radar.
A 250 Step 1 will still leave a boatload of MD's applying in these specialties (IM, probabaly not...).
 
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Where did you see the minimum USMLE of 250 for Ventura Ortho?

Also, can't say I'm a big fan of this move by Campbell University IM. We all talk about how the sooner we lose the distinction between MD and DO, the better it will be for post-graduate training. Well, this just perpetuates it. In my mind, this really isn't any different than the AOA pushing the "DO Difference" campaign, and the NBOME with the "COMLEX Perfect Match" propaganda.
 
This is crappy. We can’t complain about DOs getting shut out when we do the same MDs. Sure, prefer grads from your own school. Everyone does that. But for all any of us know there might me well qualified MDs with ties to the area who would love to attend that program. Those types stay in the area and contribute to the community. And this is just a slap in the face.
 
This seems like a pretty petty war that DOs can only lose in. Isn't like.. every single coveted residency program in their respective fields historically an ACGME residency? I personally do not want Campbell keeping a door wide open to DOs if it means historically ACGME programs are closing their doors in return.
 
Hippocrates II said:
I personally do not want Campbell keeping a door wide open to DOs if it means historically ACGME programs are closing their doors in return.
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Where have you been? ACGME programs have been throwing DO apps in the trash forever.. NYU's IM program literally said, "No Osteopathic Students" on their website. I have 0 problems with former AOA programs essentially staying DO only. Especially since, outside of the super competitive specialties, most of the MD candidates they will get won't be USMDs and will actually be foreign or carib students.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
Where have you been? ACGME programs have been throwing DO apps in the trash forever.. NYU's IM program literally said, "No Osteopathic Students" on their website. I have 0 problems with former AOA programs essentially staying DO only. Especially since, outside of the super competitive specialties, most of the MD candidates they will get won't be USMDs and will actually be foreign or carib students.
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Someone is going to have to extend the olive branch at some point
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
Where have you been? ACGME programs have been throwing DO apps in the trash forever.. NYU's IM program literally said, "No Osteopathic Students" on their website. I have 0 problems with former AOA programs essentially staying DO only. Especially since, outside of the super competitive specialties, most of the MD candidates they will get won't be USMDs and will actually be foreign or carib students.
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I'm sure that's true of some programs, but without individually researching every program I'm just going to make the assumption that most acgme programs do not throw out DO applications. It's far from a perfect system currently, but it seems progress on that front has been made, and waging a war where we deny MDs what I'm assuming is a rather low end IM program is probably not a great strategy for us.
 
Hippocrates II said:
I'm sure that's true of some programs, but without individually researching every program I'm just going to make the assumption that most acgme programs do not throw out DO applications. It's far from a perfect system currently, but it seems progress on that front has been made, and waging a war where we deny MDs what I'm assuming is a rather low end IM program is probably not a great strategy for us.
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Nope, every university IM programs in the NE will throw out DO applications. They would rather take average MDs over above average DOs bc they want to keep up the pretentious elite status on social media among their MD colleagues and MD applicants.

Been told from my DO classmates who rotate with MD students on third year rotations that MDs are indoctrinated in school during their first two years of preclinicals to look down on DOs at a decent # of MD schools.
 
Black Coffee 24/7 said:
Nope, every university IM programs in the NE will throw out DO applications. They would rather take average MDs over above average DOs bc they want to keep up the pretentious elite status on social media among their MD colleagues and MD applicants.

Been told from my DO classmates who rotate with MD students on third year rotations that MDs are indoctrinated in school during their first two years of preclinicals to look down on DOs at a decent # of MD schools.
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I went to a pretty pretentious school in the NE and nobody even really mentioned DOs. Most of us didn't really know much about you all.

Furthermore the notion that every University IM programme in the NE would toss DO applications is pretty absurd. It's one thing if you're talking Columbia, Cornell and Harvard but most IM programmes based at public universities offer solid training and resources and take plenty of DOs.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
Where have you been? ACGME programs have been throwing DO apps in the trash forever.. NYU's IM program literally said, "No Osteopathic Students" on their website. I have 0 problems with former AOA programs essentially staying DO only. Especially since, outside of the super competitive specialties, most of the MD candidates they will get won't be USMDs and will actually be foreign or carib students.
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Sure, there are plenty of competitive programmes that toss DO applicants, but the majority of mid-tier programmes outside of surgery don't. Truth be told, if it weren't for the ACGME programmes who did take DOs, a very large %-age of DO grads would not get any residency training at all - as of 2017 approx. 55% of DOs matched ACGME.

https://www.aacom.org/docs/default-...rt-2018-final-apr162018.pdf?sfvrsn=5e1f2597_2
 
Lexdiamondz said:
Sure, there are plenty of competitive programmes that toss DO applicants, but the majority of mid-tier programmes outside of surgery don't.
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Even if they don't have a policy of "tossing" the DO applications, mid-tier academic ACGME programs aren't too keen on interviewing or matching very many of them.

Truth be told, if it weren't for the ACGME programmes who did take DOs, a very large %-age of DO grads would not get any residency training at all - as of 2017 approx. 55% of DOs matched ACGME.

https://www.aacom.org/docs/default-...rt-2018-final-apr162018.pdf?sfvrsn=5e1f2597_2
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Yeah, mostly low tier programs in undesirable locations. You ever look at the DO match lists? People go nuts when they see some academic mid-tier matches in whatever specialty. It's pretty depressing.
 
sab3156 said:
Even if they don't have a policy of "tossing" the DO applications, mid-tier academic ACGME programs aren't too keen on interviewing or matching very many of them.



Yeah, mostly low tier programs in undesirable locations. You ever look at the DO match lists? People go nuts when they see some academic mid-tier matches in whatever specialty. It's pretty depressing.
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Regardless, it's better than not matching. As it stands, without the ACGME, Osteopathic grads would have a match rate closer to Caribbean schools than USMDs.
 
Black Coffee 24/7 said:
Nope, every university IM programs in the NE will throw out DO applications. They would rather take average MDs over above average DOs bc they want to keep up the pretentious elite status on social media among their MD colleagues and MD applicants.

Been told from my DO classmates who rotate with MD students on third year rotations that MDs are indoctrinated in school during their first two years of preclinicals to look down on DOs at a decent # of MD schools.
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I don't think that's true. I rotate at a hospital with MD students from a very top tier MD school, a low-mid tier and a low tier school. They have never treated me any differently with the exception of a few students from the low-mid tier school. Weirdly enough the students from the very top tier school saw me work up an msk complaint once and practically begged me to teach them my msk physical exam techniques. I think it's just up to individuals and their own perceptions.
 
Black Coffee 24/7 said:
Just make it required Comlex score for every former AOA ortho programs out there.

I fully support this kind of bushido considering that a lot of NE IM like NYU aren’t playing by the book anyway.
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I mean this would exclude MD's . But most MDs are not applying DO programs. Im not sure if there are enough previous AOA residencies to absorb all DO students if all MD programs exlcuded DOs.
 
libertyyne said:
Im not sure if there are enough previous AOA residencies to absorb all DO students if all MD programs exlcuded DOs.
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there isn't.

libertyyne said:
But most MDs are not applying DO programs.
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only to the competitive specialties, or the poor students who need to apply to lots of undesirable programs.

Tozanzibarbymotorcar said:
Someone is going to have to extend the olive branch at some point
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Hippocrates II said:
but it seems progress on that front has been made, and waging a war where we deny MDs what I'm assuming is a rather low end IM program is probably not a great strategy for us.
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You guys don't get it, MDs don't even care. There is no "olive branch" because they don't even really think about us. And the program isn't even saying "no MDs" the programs is simply putting a very high cutoff, more than likely for the carib students that will be applying to low end IM programs en masse.
 
Lexdiamondz said:
Sure, there are plenty of competitive programmes that toss DO applicants, but the majority of mid-tier programmes outside of surgery don't. Truth be told, if it weren't for the ACGME programmes who did take DOs, a very large %-age of DO grads would not get any residency training at all - as of 2017 approx. 55% of DOs matched ACGME.

https://www.aacom.org/docs/default-...rt-2018-final-apr162018.pdf?sfvrsn=5e1f2597_2
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those mid-tier programs do not take a large % of DOs lol. The standards are very different.

Yes if the ACGME cut out all DOs then it would be devastating to DO grads, I'm still not sure how that is actually relevant to this scenario.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
You guys don't get it, MDs don't even care. There is no "olive branch" because they don't even really think about us. And the program isn't even saying "no MDs" the programs is simply putting a very high cutoff, more than likely for the carib students that will be applying to low end IM programs en masse.
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AnatomyGrey12 said:
Yes if the ACGME cut out all DOs then it would be devastating to DO grads, I'm still not sure how that is actually relevant to this scenario.
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I think it's very relevant, personally. I don't disagree that most MDs do not care about DOs matching into their programs. Why would they? That said, DOs are still able to match into the overwhelming majority of ACGME residencies. I know, it sucks to go through all of this bull**** and then have the door shut in your face at some of the better institutions, but it appears ground has been made on this, and waging some petty war against MDs is probably not the smartest means of continuing to improve the situation for DOs. My problem with the premise of this thread is that inadvertently denying MDs some random, undesirable residency just to make a stand is not really the hill I want to die on, personally. It serves to do nothing other than entice MDs to do the same in return, which circles back to my original point of historically-ACGME residencies closing their doors on DOs.

Anyways, difference of opinion, but I don't think closing the door to MDs at an institution they are probably not going to apply to regardless is a great way to improve relations.
 
Hippocrates II said:
waging some petty war against MDs is probably not the smartest means of continuing to improve the situation for DOs.
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No one is "waging war"......... War only exists if there are two sides fighting and in this case one side barely acknowledges the other exists.

Hippocrates II said:
that inadvertently denying MDs some random, undesirable residency just to make a stand is not really the hill I want to die on, personally.
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You don't get it. These types of programs are going to be flooded with HUNDREDS if not THOUSANDS of Caribbean applicants... This is likely not aimed at USMDs as you are right, they won't be applying here.

Hippocrates II said:
t serves to do nothing other than entice MDs to do the same in return, which circles back to my original point of historically-ACGME residencies closing their doors on DOs.
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A couple things, 1. MDs don't give two craps as they haven't ever been able to apply to these programs anyway. and 2. You aren't going to see all these ACGME programs close their doors to DOs.
Hippocrates II said:
I don't think closing the door to MDs at an institution they are probably not going to apply to regardless is a great way to improve relations.
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No one cares. Literally no MD even cares so I don't know why you guys are so up in arms about this. They don't think about DOs and "relations." You want to know what is actually going to help organizational relations? Getting rid of cranial. Or maybe the fact that now the AOA controls 30% of the ACGME voting seats.

This is literally no different than any ACGME program that screens out DOs that aren't far better than the MD apps they get. It's literally the exact same. And no it isn't just the upper tier places that do this. If a former AOA program wants to mainly stay a DO program then that is there prerogative. Especially when all that it is going to functionally do is deter all the FMG/IMG applicants that it doesn't want.
 
Lexdiamondz said:
I went to a pretty pretentious school in the NE and nobody even really mentioned DOs. Most of us didn't really know much about you all.

Furthermore the notion that every University IM programme in the NE would toss DO applications is pretty absurd. It's one thing if you're talking Columbia, Cornell and Harvard but most IM programmes based at public universities offer solid training and resources and take plenty of DOs.
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100% agree. I suspect that student referred to earlier has self-esteem issues.

There were some 3000+ old AOA residency slots, and >7000 DO grads last year. So yup, without the ACGME, there would be a lot of unemployed DOs.
 
Black Coffee 24/7 said:
Just make it required Comlex score for every former AOA ortho programs out there.

I fully support this kind of bushido considering that a lot of NE IM like NYU aren’t playing by the book anyway.
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Imagine if every IM program starts requiring 230+ step1 for DO applicants...
 
I don't think it's good way to go about that DO vs. MD thing when historically most MD programs have taken DO over FMG and IMG who also have MD degree (in most cases). If you look at my post history, you will see that I was one of the MD students (now physician) that think that discrimination against the DO degree is BS... I think it's a battle DO will lose if PD on both side start escalating this war.
 
W19 said:
I think it's a battle DO will lose if PD on both side start escalating this war.
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And please explain how one program having a high cutoff (more than likely meant to deter the armies of Mordor... I mean the swaths of Carib students) is “escalating the war.” An escalation would be the AOA mandating all programs to have a 250 cutoff. Most former AOA programs already are considering MDs.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
And please explain how one program having a high cutoff (more than likely meant to deter the armies of Mordor... I mean the swaths of Carib students) is “escalating the war.” An escalation would be the AOA mandating all programs to have a 250 cutoff. Most former AOA programs already are considering MDs.
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420 COMLEX and 250 USMLE make no sense... DO students with COMLEX <450 would have a hard time getting that 194 in step1. They can have an internal process to exclude IMG/FMG or even AMG (MD), but no need to put something so ridiculous in their website.
 
1) I bet this was a typo.

2) New England is tougher than most to crack into for DOs but I have friends who matched there last year in IM, peds, OBGYN, FM, and even radiology— some in academic programs. It’s not unheard of.
 
I agree with @AnatomyGrey12 that this is not “waging war” when one side either forgets you exist or will continue the bias regardless. Johns Hopkins isn’t looking at cape fear valley community IM and forming a counter attack. It is either a hilarious typo, a repellent of I/FMGs, or a bias in the same way some programs have 200 usmle 550 comlex bias.
 
Honestly, I miss the old days when DOs have exclusive residency options and people can get into ortho with 600 COMLEX and just by being a cool guy at the auditions.
 
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