Can anyone give me a pre-dental tutorial?

[JimiThing]

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I recently decided to apply to dental school, or, more precisely, I recently decided to consider applying to dental school. I went through a hellish pre-med application/interview process, and don’t want a repeat experience, so can anyone give me the inside scoop.
I can think of a few questions, but if you think there's anything else, let me know.

1) How did you all get your shadowing position. Do I just start cold calling dentists offices and say, "Hey, how's about letting me follow you around."
2) How long does it take for DAT registration to process. i.e. if I theoretically sent the paper work in today, when would I be able to take it.
3) What does the AADSAS application entail? I don't want to delay my application, but also don't want to rush things. So would I be able to submit my application, and then take the DAT later (say end of June or so).
4) Do I have my pre-health committee send my LOR straight to the schools, or does that go through AADSAS too.
5) Some of the schools I'm looking at, UCSF, UCLA, UWashington, require courses I didn't take, but I can apply and just have to have the courses completed before I enroll, right?

That's all I can think of right now. Sorry for the frenetic pace, I just want to get the ball rolling so I still have the ability to apply this year if I do decide to apply.

 

[SuperTrooper]

I went through a hellish pre-med application/interview process, and don’t want a repeat experience, so....

So, after getting shut-out of medicine, you're now considering dentistry. So sad. Please tell us more.

 

[USUaggie]

1- Yup. They're pretty nice about letting you shadow.
2- It's a matter of weeks. I think maybe 2 weeks, and then you have a several month window to take it in.
3- Do aadsas in May and Dat whenever you're ready (before August)
4- I actually can't remember
5- Right.

Before you jump into all this, do enough shadowing and make sure you know what you're getting into. If you really want to do medicine just try again. Good Luck.

 

[ISU_Steve]

If you really want to do medicine, try again, or try the Caribbean schools.

 

[SuperTrooper]

If you really want to do medicine, try again, or try the Caribbean schools.

I agree. Or try a DO program. From your post, it sounded like you're settling for a profession you're not terribly interested in. Looking through other forums, it looks like caribbean schools actually have surprising match successes for US residency programs. And DO programs are generally under-rated for matching as well.

 

[ISU_Steve]

Are there any Caribbean dental schools? I've seen Caribbean vet schools, Caribbean medical schools, and I think even a Caribbean law school.....but no dental schools....Just the random wonderings of a sleep-deprived brain. OK....I'm going to bed now....

 

[SuperTrooper]

Are there any Caribbean dental schools?

I hear there aren't.

I'm trying to figure out the difference between an osteopathic and allopathic doctor. Do osteopathics get paid less?! 😕

 

[ISU_Steve]

The only difference is that osteopaths make better doctors (in my opinion). The pay is the same so far as I know and they can do the same things as an MD and are actually taught some additional skills.

 

[Sprgrover]

I hear there aren't.

I'm trying to figure out the difference between an osteopathic and allopathic doctor. Do osteopathics get paid less?! 😕

The training for a DO is almost the same nowdays as that of an MD and both have the same abilities/responsibilities. A DO is paid the same as an MD.

 

[USUaggie]

I was under the impression that it's easier to get into DO school than an MD school - is this true? Then why are the DO's better - (in your opinion)

 

[ISU_Steve]

Actually MD schools are easier to get into because there are more of them. The reason why I prefer DO's over MD's is a simple matter of I think they are taught a better approach to patient care (the "whole patient" philosophy, that is just now starting to creep into allopathic programs). They are also more likely to try manipulative therapy for musculoskeletal problems before handing you a script for pills and sending you to a surgeon.
They also seem more interested in pushing patients to change lifestyles that cause illness than allopaths do, who just seem interested in giving the patient medication or referring them to a specialist.

I've always had a DO as my doctor and I don't ever plan on relying on an MD for my primary care. I just think DO's are better educated if you really want to know the truth. I think MD's know their stuff, don't get me wrong, but I guess I've always gotten the feeling that DO's had a better idea of what is going on rather than just how to fix it.

Not to mention every DO I know (and that's probably at least 12 or 13 of them, in every field from family practice to emergency medicine to orthopedic surgery) has far better bedside manner than their allopathic counterparts. These are just some of the reasons that for having the opinion that I do.

 

[SuperTrooper]

Actually MD schools are easier to get into because there are more of them.

Wow, it's pretty creepy when you see someone's personal bias influencing the factual evidence they expel. 👎 MD schools are not easier to get into!! Period. 😡 If you made that suggestion in the pre-allo, or even the pre-osteo forum, you would be flamed out beyond all recognition in about half an hour.

Your logic above is idiotic. This is essentially what you've said.

ClassRoom A: 10 Candy Bars - 40 Children (ratio 1 CB/4 kid)
ClassRoom B: 4 Candy Bars - 8 Children (ratio 1 CB/2 kid)

"It's easier for a kid in classroomA to get a candybar because there are 6 more CandyBars." Stupid!!!

.... but I guess I've always gotten the feeling that DO's had a better idea of what is going on rather than just how to fix it.

Translation: "The individual DO that I see takes the time to explain things to me. So that I think I understand."

 

[ISU_Steve]

Uh, the prereq's are the same for MD programs and DO programs last time I checked. I know a lot of people who have applied to both and been accepted to an allopathic program, but rejected by the osteopathic programs that they applied to. I wasn't making a direct statement that allopathic programs are some how more lax in their admissions, in fact I felt that I was just defending osteopathy because you seemed to have a very negative outlook on it. I stand corrected about the ease of admission to MD programs- it's not something that has interested me to the point where I have researched it beyond a very cursory look and I don't feel the need to get into a heated debate in a predental forum in regards to it.

And I wasn't just speaking about one DO, I was speaking about a very large and diverse group that I have worked with quite closely (including my former medical director, the chief of anesthesiology at one of our local hospitals, the chief of orthopedics at the other local hospital, and three different emergency physicians). Don't put words in my mouth please. I don't think you would appreciate it if I did that to you. Thank you. 🙂

 

[Fermata]

It's a stupid comparison since each attracts different kinds of candidates.

 

[onetoothleft]

It's a stupid comparison since each attracts different kinds of candidates.

True, but to clarify, the average admissions criteria (including MCAT and GPA) are usually more competive in MD programs than DO programs. The Average DO Program has students with about a 25 MCAT and 3.4 GPA, whereas the average MD program has a student body with an average MCAT of 29 and GPAof 3.6. Therefore, MD programs are traditionally harder to gain acceptance. They are two very different kinds of schools, and decisions to go to one or the other are based on what kind of doctor the applicant wants to be. Nevertheless (as with dentistry) there are students who apply to osteopathic Medical schools as a second choice to allopathic (MD) schools.

 

[onetoothleft]

If you really want to do medicine, try again, or try the Caribbean schools.

There is another back door option to getting your MD. Some people do this to get their MD (plus at a better school!)

1. Get your DDS at your favorite dental school.
2. Do well in school and apply for the OMFS specialty. There is one option of this specialty where you take 2 years of MD school and are awarded the MD degree--sort of like it is built into the residency. The residency lasts 6 years total, and when finished you will be a bonafide MD/DDS. They make great money, and often do additional work to become plastic surgeons, etc. In fact . . . once you complete that MD you can do any other MD residency you want and become a totally differeny doctor!

Plus as a bonus . . . . your DDS might be from a better med school (like Columbia 🙂 ) and chances are (if you work hard) you will get into a better med school (for the residency part) than you could have before. For example, you could do your DDS at Columbia, UPenn, Harvard, etc. and then go on to get your MD from Harvard, Columbia, UCSF, etc.

Pretty good deal for someone who only got like a 26 on their MCAT first time around!!

 

[ISU_Steve]

Thank you for the information OneTooth. I stand corrected, thank you for clarifying things in a polite manner. 🙂

 

[rocknightmare]

now going back to the orginal question.

OP this is a time where you really need to think about what you want to do with your life. You could make it the best year of your life deciding about it or making it the worest. You need to figure out why you didn't make it to medical school? If it was the MCATs think about taking it again. But if you are seriously thinking about changing career paths then you need to concentrate on shadowing your feature career and couple of other ones to figure out which one you want to do.

I did the same thing you will be doing, I shadowed a couple of general dentists, and a couple of physicans at the same time. I asked both fields a number of questions and decided that dentistry was my calling. But at the same time I was shadowing I studied Gen Chem, Biology, and Organic chemistry. To prepare me for either taking the MCATs again or studying for the DAT. Now once you figured out what you want do, study the other subjects. I would not recommend you rushing into either tests b4 August.

Then once you figure out which field you are going to pursue worry about the application process. Just make sure you decide by July. So it gives you time to prepare a good application, and finalize studying for either tests.

Once you do all that stuff, then you can worry about the pre-reqs for schools, b/c you have until August of 2006 to complete those!

 

[mvs04]

there are no "caribbean dental schools" because you can't practice in the United States, except for maybe Texas, unless you graduated from a US D-school.

DOs and MDs in the US are almost exactly the same once they start practicing. MDs are recognized internationally, DOs often are not. Important fact only for those that want to do international work or NGOs or etc.

 

[SuperTrooper]

Hey Steve, I didn't say that you were an idiot, i meant that your logic was idiotic. Sorry if I appeared a little ruffled. I was just shocked that someone who was clearly uninformed would make such a generalized statement. But maybe that's your learning technique. And I respect that. 👍

DO schools do have lower GPA and MCAT scores, and if you check out the pre-allo forum you'll find tons of threads like: "I didn't get into any MD program, should I try caribbean med schools or try for DO." DO is a backup for many people who don't get into med school. However, I'm sure that some do prefer DO to MD.

in fact I felt that I was just defending osteopathy because you seemed to have a very negative outlook on it.

Why did you think I had a negative outlook on it? Because I said DO match success was very under-rated? That would be a positive thing.

 

[SuperTrooper]

There is another back door option to getting your MD. Some people do this to get their MD (plus at a better school!)

1. Get your DDS at your favorite dental school.
2. Do well in school and apply for the OMFS specialty. There is one option of this specialty where you take 2 years of MD school and are awarded the MD degree--sort of like it is built into the residency. The residency lasts 6 years total, and when finished you will be a bonafide MD/DDS. They make great money, and often do additional work to become plastic surgeons, etc. In fact . . . once you complete that MD you can do any other MD residency you want and become a totally differeny doctor!

Plus as a bonus . . . . your DDS might be from a better med school (like Columbia 🙂 ) and chances are (if you work hard) you will get into a better med school (for the residency part) than you could have before. For example, you could do your DDS at Columbia, UPenn, Harvard, etc. and then go on to get your MD from Harvard, Columbia, UCSF, etc.

Pretty good deal for someone who only got like a 26 on their MCAT first time around!!

onetoothleft, I find it very hard to believe that "some people do this to get their MD." I mean, this post is ridiculous on so many levels. 🙄

 

[JimiThing]

So sad. Please tell us more.

I didn't want to post my life history just to ask a few questions, but I seem to have given the wrong impression. So, since you asked 🙂 , here goes.

I applied to medical school last cycle fresh off of a research fellowship, and suddenly uncertain of whether I would pursue an MD or MD/PhD. I initially checked off the MD/PhD box when I sent in the AMCAS, but later decided I needed more time to think it through. However, several months into the afore mentioned hellish application/interview process (If you really wanna know, look down below).*** I grew frustrated and indifferent, feeling as though I would look back and say, “If only things went more fluidly, I could have wound up at my top choice.” I also realized that my responses to application and interview questions lacked the insight I should have had, so I spent time talking to doctors about their lives, not just their profession. I didn’t let my tendency to think, “Holy **** ortho surgery is neat” get in the way. They all said the same thing. If you think there is something you could be equally happy doing, do that instead.
So I took a year off, moved to San Diego, and got a job as a research tech, thinking I might be better suited to MD/PhD or PhD. After months of debating the pro’s and con’s of each path I thought I had decided to go MD, until a few weeks ago, when I realized that the laid back atmosphere of SoCal has given me a new appreciation for life outside of work. I’m learning to play an instrument, I get to watch baseball (MLB.TV rocks), I listen to music incessantly, I write stand-up, I listen to stand-up when I’m not writing or listening to music. In short, I no longer feel that my job will define who I am. I am however stuck with a love of science, an unrelenting desire to help people, and the inborn belief that if you don’t use your hands to produce a tangible result, you haven’t done anything (my dad’s a carpenter and I started going to work with him when I was 4).
That’s when I browsed through the dental section of Baron’s Guide to Medical and Dental School. I read the intro, and thought, “Well that’s interesting. How in the hell haven’t I thought of that before.” I realized that dentistry more than satisfies all my expectations and desires for a career, including the ability to help and interact with people in a significant manner, work with my hands, run my own business, all while making a good income with job security and enough time left for family, friends, maybe even a few dogs.
So, I turned to you all for some advice on the process of 1-finding out if I really want to do this 2-how to do it right the first time if I do decide, so I don’t repeat last years mistakes.
I think Scrubs is coming on.

***which involved 1) a delightful12-13 hour MCAT experience (wound up with a 33 though) 2) trouble with AMCAS processing and verifying my application, so I wasn’t complete until late September 3) tried to get to my secondaries ASAP since I was behind, but spent most of that first semester sleeping 12 hours a day and spending my time awake in a complete haze. I thought it was burn out, but found out I had been anemic. 4) on my first flight ever, going to my first interview, we were diverted for several hours so we could "change equipment" (ie get off the broken plane) so I got to the hotel at 2am 5) took no chances and drove the 8 hours to my second interview. Got to the hotel fine, but broke down on the ~3mile drive from the hotel to the school. So I had to walk the last mile or so in 12F weather, -12F with the wind chill, and got there a half hour late frozen solid 6) The extra 5 hours it took to have the Syracuse mechanics replace the water pump that broke on the way to the interview caused me to catch the brunt of a nasty blizzard on the NY-Penn border going home, in which I totaled my car (though how much damage do you really have to do to total a 1990 Toyota Tercel) 7) third interview - had my moral integrity questioned because I said, “just because something is illegal, doesn’t mean it’s immoral.” (for those who are followingI took AMTRAK this time. No problems. I love AMTRAK).

On preview, I forgot to thank everyone for their concern and replies. I'll start cold calling some dentists tomorrow. Keep the advice coming.

 

[ISU_Steve]

Remind me to never travel with you. 😉

 

[elz787]

Actually MD schools are easier to get into because there are more of them. The reason why I prefer DO's over MD's is a simple matter of I think they are taught a better approach to patient care (the "whole patient" philosophy, that is just now starting to creep into allopathic programs). They are also more likely to try manipulative therapy for musculoskeletal problems before handing you a script for pills and sending you to a surgeon.
They also seem more interested in pushing patients to change lifestyles that cause illness than allopaths do, who just seem interested in giving the patient medication or referring them to a specialist.

I've always had a DO as my doctor and I don't ever plan on relying on an MD for my primary care. I just think DO's are better educated if you really want to know the truth. I think MD's know their stuff, don't get me wrong, but I guess I've always gotten the feeling that DO's had a better idea of what is going on rather than just how to fix it.

Not to mention every DO I know (and that's probably at least 12 or 13 of them, in every field from family practice to emergency medicine to orthopedic surgery) has far better bedside manner than their allopathic counterparts. These are just some of the reasons that for having the opinion that I do.

I agree, also it is harder to get into DO school , there's only 19 of them in the US!

 

[USUaggie]

Jimithing, it sounds like you're supposed to be in dentistry. Come to LLU!!

 

[Sprgrover]

Jimithing, it sounds like you're supposed to be in dentistry. Come to LLU!!

No! Come to Penn!

 

[onetoothleft]

onetoothleft, I find it very hard to believe that "some people do this to get their MD." I mean, this post is ridiculous on so many levels. 🙄

There are people who do this, and that will admit it (My old roommate for example). Personally I want to be a dentist, but I don't think there is anything wrong with doing this. It clearly sounds like you would be using dentistry to get into medical school, but whatever works works--and while it may sound or even be rediculous, it can be done this way. Nothing in that post is incorrect.

 

[SuperTrooper]

There are people who do this, and that will admit it (My old roommate for example). Personally I want to be a dentist, but I don't think there is anything wrong with doing this. It clearly sounds like you would be using dentistry to get into medical school, but whatever works works--and while it may sound or even be rediculous, it can be done this way. Nothing in that post is incorrect.

You don't think there's anything wrong with this? I have to ask: were you once pre-med, but didn't cut it?

Points of ridiculousness:
1) Dental school is hard, and to get into oral surgery you need to work extra hard. Why bother? Why not do another college degree, and kick ass in some easy major - get into med school that way.
2) Extreme waste of money considering d-school is expensive. (see point 1)
3) Extreme waste of years of your life. Considering, like you suggested, this path is to get into a residency like internal medicine and become "any type of doctor."
4) What bothered me the most about your post - was your feelings of getting into a "better medical" school like UPenn, harvard, etc. Who cares?!
5) 26 on the MCAT. Pretty good deal?! You're only fooling yourself.

I realize this is a plausible scenario, but anyone who did this in my opinion is pretty pathetic and desperate.

 

[rocknightmare]

yea no kidding wouldn't watn to travel with you either. 🙂

anyways good luck with the dentist shadowing. you will probably learn alot🙂

 

[spc213]

I'll start cold calling some dentists tomorrow. Keep the advice coming.

Jimi, (by chance a Dave Matthews reference?)

Thoughtful post. Dentistry may just be for you after all.

The way I see it, you have two options. Both of them will begin with starting to shadow ASAP. Virtually every dentist I have spoken with was willing to help me in that respect. Your biggest hurdle will be some of the new regulations associated with patient privacy (HIPAA) and how various dentists interpret those regulations within their office (some don't allow shadowing to protect patient privacy).

Option 1: Take the year to shadow, prep for and take the DAT, finish any prereqs, and decide if dental school is the right choice for you. This is the more relaxed approach that would seem to fit with your current lifestyle.

Option 2: Assume you will like the field and drop your app in late-May, early-June. You can get the DAT done before the end of the summer and finish any pre-reqs over the next year of application. This option will be much more hectic and require you to travel more in the near future for more interviews (I shudder for you), as well as cost you some $$$ sooner, but you'll be on your way to school a year sooner.

Only you can make that call.

Good luck with your decision.

 

[rocknightmare]

i personally recommend the 2nd option. don't waste a year if you don't have to. just because the earlier u get done the earlier everything else moves in life.

 

[USUaggie]

Super Trooper, are you dental poopie aka vertical bite aka that other guy? If not, you have a very similar style of debating issues and you sure did a lot of posting right after you joined which is right after the above mentioned user got banned. Just curious.

 

[onetoothleft]

You don't think there's anything wrong with this? I have to ask: were you once pre-med, but didn't cut it?

Points of ridiculousness:
1) Dental school is hard, and to get into oral surgery you need to work extra hard. Why bother? Why not do another college degree, and kick ass in some easy major - get into med school that way.
2) Extreme waste of money considering d-school is expensive. (see point 1)
3) Extreme waste of years of your life. Considering, like you suggested, this path is to get into a residency like internal medicine and become "any type of doctor."
4) What bothered me the most about your post - was your feelings of getting into a "better medical" school like UPenn, harvard, etc. Who cares?!
5) 26 on the MCAT. Pretty good deal?! You're only fooling yourself.

I realize this is a plausible scenario, but anyone who did this in my opinion is pretty pathetic and desperate.

I was never a premed, but most of my friends were so I know how cutthroat it is to get in. I am not making any judgements about how people do things--it is not for me to say. It probably does take longer and cost more money, but I was giving a hypothetical example. You need a 34 on the MCAT and a 3.8 GPA or so to get into Harvard medical school. If it is too late to get that, you could accomplish this by going through dental school.

As for #4, medical school is different than dental school in the sense that people do care where you went in some cases. It can matter that you went to a "better" medical school.

I would not go as far as saying it is pathetic or desperate. I think it sounds pretty smart. I do however think that once a person gets started in dental school they may decide that dentisty is more suited for them anyway and in many ways a preferable career choice, thus the desire to just get their MD however possible would fade.

 

[Bullfan16]

i personally recommend the 2nd option. don't waste a year if you don't have to. just because the earlier u get done the earlier everything else moves in life.

Couldnt agree more...I started a MS degree at a local university here in Chicago and my advisors (and even some of the dental admission counselors at some of the schools I applied to) recommended that I finish the 2 years of the MS program and apply for 2006 (if I had applied for next cycle I would be finishing the program the May before classes started at dental school) rather than apply for this cycle (which I am glad I did).

They all said it was going to be too hectic to take classes, re-take the DAT, travel for interviews, study, etc and deal with the paperwork (which is annoying, but not something that should deter anyone from applying). The important part of all of this was that all of my pre-reqs were finished and the courses I was taking were all of the "recommened courses" (with the exception to Biochem which I am finishing this semester...some schools require it).

However, if you have most of your pre-reqs and only have a few more to take (I recommend taking more upper level classes and not just waiting around), then I say go for it and apply for this cycle. Yes, its expensive, but if you get in its worth it...10 times over. If you dont get in re-apply the next cycle and if you dont get in on that attempt, I would be shocked. Make sure to spend 2-3 months studying for the DAT and remember as long as your application is in, you can take it anytime up until around September/October (I know its cutting it close, but it can be done). Send in your app very early....dont listen to the doubters...there will be many. By the way I cant take credit for applying for this cycle...it was my dad who urged me to apply to save time in the long run. Yes, one year isnt a big deal (if I had to reapply again) but looking back I saved a lot of time, aggravation, and energy by applying even though I wasnt earning a degree or taking a significant course load.