Can I ditch taking the Hippocratic Oath?

[sirus_virus]

So It happens to be against my religion(judeo-christianity) to take any such oath, as it is associated with idolatry. Not to mention that I am no huge fan of Hippocrates. So is it possible to be excused from this ritual?

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[willow18]

No one watches your mouth intently to see if you're saying the oath. Just mumble along "Row your boat" or something. Oaths like these are a hill-o-beans; your actions as a physican is what's gonna matter.

 

[foofish]

So It happens to be against my religion(judeo-christianity) to take any such oath, as it is associated with idolatry. Not to mention that I am no huge fan of Hippocrates. So is it possible to be excused from this ritual?

My favorite Hippocrates factoid is that his daughter was apparently (ahem) turned into a dragon and is still hangin' out in Greece waiting for a knight's kiss to break the curse. 🙂

 

[Tired Pigeon]

No one watches your mouth intently to see if you're saying the oath. Just mumble along "Row your boat" or something. Oaths like these are a hill-o-beans; your actions as a physican is what's gonna matter.

Seriously, this is your best bet. If you ask to be formally excused on religious grounds, your request will likely be granted, but you will create an impression with your school's administration/dean's office that you are a troublemaker and a "difficult" personality. Not fair, but it's the truth.

This may offend your sense of fairness and freedom of religion (it does mine). There will also be other things that come up in medical school where you feel something is clearly unjust. Choose your battles wisely -- before you make a federal case out of anything, ask yourself if this is the hill you want to die on today. IMO, this isn't the time to make your stand.

Congrats on starting medical school!👍

 

[Critical Mass]

Our oath really wasn't the Hippocratic oath. Really it was just a pledge to place no other gods before our deans.

Seriously, though, I think it was modified to the point where it was not recognizable as the Hippocratic. We didn't pledge to any gods or anything like that. We just promised to try not to kill people and stuff.

 

[chocolate-e]

Is the hippocratic oath even used at your school? It isn't at mine. I think it was also explicitly billed as optional here, which I guess is official sanction of mumbling something else or not reading along.

 

[DRJJ1]

So It happens to be against my religion(judeo-christianity) to take any such oath, as it is associated with idolatry. Not to mention that I am no huge fan of Hippocrates. So is it possible to be excused from this ritual?

if this is the truth then you have a problem I have never heard of this being a religious problem but if you say so then you should of enrolled in a school that doesn t recite the oath,,otherwise if I was the dean I would make you attend and say it..why make waves before you re even out? this is why some never fit into society...why post here? go with the flow and move along without bumps in the road over trivial things because you re going to have more bumps and hills very soon so save your energy

 

[Tired Pigeon]

if this is the truth then you have a problem I have never heard of this being a religious problem but if you say so then you should of enrolled in a school that doesn t recite the oath,,otherwise if I was the dean I would make you attend and say it..why make waves before you re even out? this is why some never fit into society...why post here? go with the flow and move along without bumps in the road over trivial things because you re going to have more bumps and hills very soon so save your energy

Are you utterly unable to utilize punctuation and capitalization? It hurts to read this (and makes it hard to take anything you say seriously.)

 

[racerx]

Are you utterly unable to utilize punctuation and capitalization? It hurts to read this (and makes it hard to take anything you say seriously.)

why what do you mean just the other day i was given a writing award by the flow of consciousness academy and am now eligible for their scholarship worth three thousand dollars a year i hope to use the money to buy a few commas and perhaps a case of apostrophes or a period or two🙄

 

[deleted77919]

It's like reading Faulkner, but something he wrote in his kindergarten journal.

 

[dutchman]

Does your question have anything to do with this 🙂 ?

Dear Hippocrates,

If you can here me out there, I need you to wake up from your grave and come get a taste of modern day medical training. We actually use something called text-books these days, no more one page scrolls. Feel free to do us the honors of taking USMLE step 1 while you are here, and I must warn you that there is stuff called Immunology, genetics, pharmacology and pathology on this test, which might come as a shock to you, being as your entire medical knowledge comprises of 7 diseases and 1 anti-biotic.

Another thing that might shock the hell out of you is that you cannot do that whole "free" medical service thing you used to do without what we call malpractice insurance, which costs money. Also, don't think that just because you are Hippocrates and offering free service, that you will not get sued. If you make a mistake, it's your ass, and by 'ass', I mean it in every sense of the word, as some mistakes could actually land you in jail where funny things could happen to your ass. I am not going to talk about residency which I will like to leave as a pleasant surprise.

Now, when you are done, you can take your oath back to your grave and I don't ever want to hear from you or the hypnotized zombies your oath has produced.

 

[Tired Pigeon]

why what do you mean just the other day i was given a writing award by the flow of consciousness academy and am now eligible for their scholarship worth three thousand dollars a year i hope to use the money to buy a few commas and perhaps a case of apostrophes or a period or two🙄

Very nice.

 

[Tired Pigeon]

It's like reading Faulkner, but something he wrote in his kindergarten journal.

Good interview question: DRJJ1, which Faulkner work would you say was most influential in the development of your own style of written expression?

 

[Droopy Snoopy]

if this is the truth then you have a problem I have never heard of this being a religious problem but if you say so then you should of enrolled in a school that doesn t recite the oath,,otherwise if I was the dean I would make you attend and say it..why make waves before you re even out? this is why some never fit into society...why post here? go with the flow and move along without bumps in the road over trivial things because you re going to have more bumps and hills very soon so save your energy

Says the hypnotized zombie 😀 .

 

[Wanna_B_Scutty]

Says the hypnotized zombie 😀 .

👍

 

[anon-y-mouse]

So It happens to be against my religion(judeo-christianity) to take any such oath, as it is associated with idolatry. Not to mention that I am no huge fan of Hippocrates. So is it possible to be excused from this ritual?

this is the absolute lamest reason i've ever heard. it's allegorical and symbolical of the position, not an actual oath to some cultist god of medicine. get over yourself. i'm sure jesus and other christian religious figures would be more than flexible given the circumstances. use some sense. do you really think any current living christian wants to destroy ethiopia or avoid menstruating women for fear of getting excommunicated from society? please. the oath is an affirmation to medicine and to your patients, and a time honored tradition.

 

[AmoryBlaine]

this is the absolute lamest reason i've ever heard. it's allegorical and symbolical of the position, not an actual oath to some cultist god of medicine. get over yourself. i'm sure jesus and other christian religious figures would be more than flexible given the circumstances. use some sense. do you really think any current living christian wants to destroy ethiopia or avoid menstruating women for fear of getting excommunicated from society? please. the oath is an affirmation to medicine and to your patients, and a time honored tradition.

👍

If you feel that strongly, then mumble under your breath. Worrying about this is HUGELY unimportant. Raising hell about this to anyone at your school would be a horrendously bad idea and only cause you grief.

I don't even know if we swear anything at my school, I think it's some generic mumbo-jumbo about being ethical and not shagging our patients.



Another question for the OP: what are you planning to do when you get sued? You will get sued at some point in your career. Will you be willing to swear an oath so as to testify or be deposed or will you just go ahead and settle? I doubt your going to find many malpractice carriers who want to take on a doc that is unwilling to even try to fight a claim...

 

[Thundrstorm]

My school (and I think most others) don't use the actual hippocratic oath anymore (which is good b/c I wouldn't have said it either). They used 2 things: a code of ethics from the Declaration of Geneva, and a school-specific professional conduct code. Do what makes you feel comfortable. Despite what some other posters may think, you do not have to be flexible about your religious beliefs. Check with your school -- it may be a non-issue if they say the Geneva code (read it online... it's more of an honor code of ethics... it has nothing in it about pledging to gods or anything).

 

[Thundrstorm]

Another question for the OP: what are you planning to do when you get sued? You will get sued at some point in your career. Will you be willing to swear an oath so as to testify or be deposed or will you just go ahead and settle? I doubt your going to find many malpractice carriers who want to take on a doc that is unwilling to even try to fight a claim...

I may have misunderstood the OP, but I think the problem was not saying an oath, but specifically what the Hippocratic Oath says, "I swear by Apollo, Æsculapius, Hygieia, and Panacea, and I take to witness all the gods, all the goddesses..." since it honors other gods besides the One he believes in.

 

[thewebthsp]

We did have to do some modified form of the Oath. Agreed, it is highly archaic -- things like the Geneva Declaration would be more appropriate.

Much of the Hippocratic Oath is likely medieval Catholic not Greek; during Hippocrates time abortions were performed...

 

[cfdavid]

So It happens to be against my religion(judeo-christianity) to take any such oath, as it is associated with idolatry. Not to mention that I am no huge fan of Hippocrates. So is it possible to be excused from this ritual?

Off topic, but what is judeo-christianity?? I didn't know the two religions merged.

 

[lord_jeebus]

Another question for the OP: what are you planning to do when you get sued? You will get sued at some point in your career. Will you be willing to swear an oath so as to testify or be deposed or will you just go ahead and settle? I doubt your going to find many malpractice carriers who want to take on a doc that is unwilling to even try to fight a claim...

Isn't there an option to "affirm" for people who refuse to swear?

Perhaps the OP could affirm the Oath.

 

[MacGyver]

The hippocratic oath (the modern revised one that doesnt include prohibitions against abortions and surgery) is stupid as **** and just another sign that med school administrators take themselves way too seriously.

Its the same bull**** with the stupid ass white coat ceremony. Its mental masturbation for nitwits.

 

[smq123]

So It happens to be against my religion(judeo-christianity) to take any such oath, as it is associated with idolatry. Not to mention that I am no huge fan of Hippocrates. So is it possible to be excused from this ritual?

No, you can't bluff your way through it. My school secretly videotaped our white coat ceremony. The footage showed that I didn't pronounce the 8th word of the oath clearly enough, so they took away my white coat, as well as my "W.W.H.D" t-shirt and wristband.

 

[smq123]

So It happens to be against my religion(judeo-christianity) to take any such oath, as it is associated with idolatry. Not to mention that I am no huge fan of Hippocrates. So is it possible to be excused from this ritual?

It's not a "ritual," as you called it. It's just a formality, and something that your parents will enjoy far more than you will. Most schools, in their version of the Hippocratic oath, remove the whole "Apollo, Æsculapius, Hygieia, and Panacea" crap anyway.

This is similar to the one that my school used:
"Hippocratic Oath-Modern Version

I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant:

I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.

I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures [that] are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.

I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug.

I will not be ashamed to say "I know not," nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.

I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.

I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.

I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.

I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.

If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help."

See? No big deal. You'll probably get a chance to read your school's version before you have to say it, but I doubt that it will include anything about Zeus or Apollo or whatever.

 

[ChuckRock]

this is the absolute lamest reason i've ever heard. it's allegorical and symbolical of the position, not an actual oath to some cultist god of medicine. get over yourself. i'm sure jesus and other christian religious figures would be more than flexible given the circumstances. use some sense. do you really think any current living christian wants to destroy ethiopia or avoid menstruating women for fear of getting excommunicated from society? please. the oath is an affirmation to medicine and to your patients, and a time honored tradition.

👍

 

[Haemulon]

Its just a tradition people. Symbolic of the entrance into medicine, that's all. I think its actually kind of cool. And it gives your families a big ceremony thing to sit through and be proud of you, which is nice.

 

[Schaden Freud]

Reading this was like a breath of fresh air. Keep it real, brotha!

The hippocratic oath (the modern revised one that doesnt include prohibitions against abortions and surgery) is stupid as **** and just another sign that med school administrators take themselves way too seriously.

Its the same bull**** with the stupid ass white coat ceremony. Its mental masturbation for nitwits.

 

[Jejton]

Regardless of whether the oath is taken seriously by other posters, students, deans, it is an oath and for many people in many different relgions and cultures oaths are taken very seriously. If it goes against the OP's beliefs, then noone should ridicule him for not wanting to say it just as noone should be ridiculed for not performing abortions, refusing to not give bc to teens, or doing anything else against their beliefs. Whether or not it is worth making waves about this, rather than as others suggested just pretending to say the oath, is a valid question and I assume that it is not worth making a big deal, especially if it turns out that the oath is just a generic promise to do no evil, etc. and doesnt mention anything remotely religious.

 

[sirus_virus]

Off topic, but what is judeo-christianity?? I didn't know the two religions merged.

Old testament + New testament.

 

[sirus_virus]

this is the absolute lamest reason i've ever heard. it's allegorical and symbolical of the position, not an actual oath to some cultist god of medicine. get over yourself. i'm sure jesus and other christian religious figures would be more than flexible given the circumstances. use some sense. do you really think any current living christian wants to destroy ethiopia or avoid menstruating women for fear of getting excommunicated from society? please. the oath is an affirmation to medicine and to your patients, and a time honored tradition.

No it's not. There are infact lamer excuses; like I just don't give a crap.

 

[sirus_virus]

BTW, I don't mind pledging for as long as it is not an oath. I know every now and then, medical training will force you to sell your sanity, pride and dignity... but selling my faith? That aint gonna happen.

 

[Neuronix]

I just stood up and didn't say it. What's the big deal?

I guess I'm just an allopathic physician, and not a hippocratic physician. There were many, many types of doctors in Greek medicine. Hippocratics were probably more like naturopaths. They swore this oath as a part of becoming that particular part of physician. That bares little resemblance to medicine today or what we do as doctors.

Instead, the Hippocratic oath is very christian. The reason it survived since Greek times was because the Catholic church liked it so much. It forbade abortion and asked for help in healing from a higher power. It also forbids operating on kidney stones. In a nutshell, I won't swear to the oath because it's been one way for ~2,000 years, and someone decided much more recently that they can just change a few things and now it's cool! Now we can all swear to the new, politically correct oath! Ridiculous.

Then again, given what I just said the op's reason for not taking the oath is kind of silly. I guess maybe they don't like the marked up one that doesn't forbid abortion and leaves out the god part

 

[deleted128562]

So for those who think Sirus is being silly and petty over this - I assume then you'd be OK repeating the oath if your school changed it so you swore "upon the Most Holy Name of Jesus Christ, my personal Savior...." afterall, it's just words and you're just going for the meaning anyway....

(I'm guessing you'd be the first folks to protest)

 

[OncoCaP]

So for those who think Sirus is being silly and petty over this - I assume then you'd be OK repeating the oath if your school changed it so you swore "upon the Most Holy Name of Jesus Christ, my personal Savior...." afterall, it's just words and you're just going for the meaning anyway....

(I'm guessing you'd be the first folks to protest)

👍 The ACLU, ADL, etc. would be falling all over themselves to be the first to sue for a couple hundred million dollars for this "revised" oath infringing on their rights. It always amazes me how people can say something is "no big deal" until someone messes with something they care about.

Here's another "oath" phrase that should get certain people's blood boiling (and puts it into perspective why there might be complaints about a mere oath): "I solemnly swear that every man and woman has divine significance and must be provided with the best medical care because God formed Adam from the earth in His Image and Eve from Adam's rib in the Garden of Eden as stated in Genesis and that darwin's theory of evolution is 'just a theory' and can never be used to justify denying care." It's amazing how people can't relate to the idea that there are certain oaths that could pose a problem and it wouldn't be OK just to hum under your breath when everyone is (in theory) reciting it.

However, it does look like schools have cleaned up the HO to make it very acceptable, even desirable to pretty much everyone on the path to practice medicine in modern times. If your school didn't clean it up and you didn't want to fight this battle or be known as a "troublemaker," you could always recite a substitute version (making changes to the parts you objected to). It looks like there is a PBS Nova article on the HO, including the changes to it and various perspectives from people inside and outside the medical profession: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/doctors/oath_modern.html ... interesting stuff.

 

[spreebee]

So It happens to be against my religion(judeo-christianity) to take any such oath, as it is associated with idolatry. Not to mention that I am no huge fan of Hippocrates. So is it possible to be excused from this ritual?

Keep your fingers crossed... Or just say it and pray you won't be condemned for all eternity...

 

[VCOMLover]

No, you can't bluff your way through it. My school secretly videotaped our white coat ceremony. The footage showed that I didn't pronounce the 8th word of the oath clearly enough, so they took away my white coat, as well as my "W.W.H.D" t-shirt and wristband.

I so had to laugh at W.W.H.D. !!! Too funny. But really OP you can bluff your way through it. I too believe in one God and one God only...even though our Dean would like for us to believe in the admin...so I wouldn't say all that mumble jumble either. I also wouldn't say anything to admin about it...they just look for the troublemakers in a class to make an example out of.

 

[swanny]

This has been an interesting thread to read. For a "JudeoChristian" take on the Hippocratic Oath, I would refer you to the work of Dr. John Patrick:

http://www.johnpatrick.ca/papers/jp_hippoc.htm

FYI, according to a 1993 survey, only one medical school in the US administered the full Hippocratic Oath to its graduates. Reportedly, that medical school (SUNY?) gave it up a few years back, but another one (U of Chicago?) reinstituted it. Most medical schools use edited versions of the original Hippocratic Oath (variously eliminating references to Greek gods, abortion, euthanasia, sex with patients, and/or free training and professional courtesy); a modernized version of the Hippocratic Oath developed by Louis Lasagna in the 60's; the Geneva Declaration; or other oaths developed and agreed to by students and/or faculty. I don't know which oath you'll be asked to take-but I would encourage you to continue to take the issue seriously. This is a topic of interest to residencies, as one of the competencies you'll be expected to demonstrate as a resident will be "professionalism." This is a somewhat murky area, in that it clearly goes above and beyond simply getting to work on time, dressing appropriately and refraining from abusing patients.


http://www.johnpatrick.ca/papers/jp_hippoc.htm

 

[BeatrixKiddo]

nevermind

 

[MacGyver]

This is a topic of interest to residencies, as one of the competencies you'll be expected to demonstrate as a resident will be "professionalism." This is a somewhat murky area, in that it clearly goes above and beyond simply getting to work on time, dressing appropriately and refraining from abusing patients.


http://www.johnpatrick.ca/papers/jp_hippoc.htm

Where's your evidence that taking a stupid ass oath is going to improve professionalism?

Again, this whole deal is just a bunch of crap from administrators who try to sell us a line of bull**** and take themselves way too seriously.

They should scrap the white coat ceremony and the oath and just do a re-enactment of the "doctor doctor" scene from Spies Like Us. It would be a lot more meaningful. I think another thing they should do instead is play the scene from Malice (in my sig) on a big projector so we could all get a laugh out of it.

 

[deuist]

Off topic, but what is judeo-christianity?? I didn't know the two religions merged.

It happened some time ago. Jesus took over a CEO, Moses will retain his position as president, and Bill Gates was brought in as chairman of the board.

 

[NonTradMed]

The white coat ceremony is a time for parents and family to come and fawn at you, and the "oath" is just a made up modern ritual to make us all feel self-important. You don't have to say anything if you don't want to, no one cares. Don't bother telling the administration about it, they'll probably tell you to not do anything during the ceremony and peg you down as a troublemaker. Nothing to get worked up about.

 

[Biscuit799]

Off topic, but what is judeo-christianity?? I didn't know the two religions merged.

Corporate downsizing strikes again...

 

[Critical Mass]

I just stood up and didn't say it. What's the big deal?

Me too.

 

[cfdavid]

Corporate downsizing strikes again...

Like Daimler-Chrysler!

 

[Steiner]

So It happens to be against my religion(judeo-christianity) to take any such oath, as it is associated with idolatry. Not to mention that I am no huge fan of Hippocrates. So is it possible to be excused from this ritual?

You don't even have to go to your graduation. And you could easily be excused from saying the hippocratic oath. By the time you have to say it, you're graduating and already matched, so who cares.

 

[MartianOddity]

We had a secularisized oath that I had no problem saying. It was modern, even though the country is very catholic.