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can med schools see WL acceptances?

percyjackson123

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with medical school traffic rules, is there a point where med schools can see where their WL and accepted applicants end up matriculating? adcoms, do you actually look or care at that point?
when you click plan to enroll, and say you get off a WL, do they see that you are holding more than one acceptance at that point?
 
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gonnif

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with medical school traffic rules, is there a point where med schools can see where their WL and accepted applicants end up matriculating?
About October
adcoms, do you actually look or care at that point?
Occasionally

when you click plan to enroll, and say you get off a WL, do they see that you are holding more than one acceptance at that point?
Yes, if I am adcom at school A where you have PTE and you then get acceptance at school B, a report will show that you hold acceptance with school A and another school (though we will not know which other school)


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KnightDoc

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Yes, if I am adcom at school A where you have PTE and you then get acceptance at school B, a report will show that you hold acceptance with school A and another school (though we will not know which other school)


View attachment 305807
I keep hearing this. Exactly where in the table you posted does it say that the PTE school can see anything before the October post-cycle report?

Thanks!!
 
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gonnif

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I keep hearing this. Exactly where in the table you posted does it say that the PTE school can see anything before the October post-cycle report?

Thanks!!
Well you are right, the timeline doesnt say it.
I know from seeing the early version of the CYMS last cycle that after 4/30 when an individual student who PTE/CTE got an acceptance off the WL, it would be noted on the system. That was intentional for enrollment planning and would make sense it still is in place, but I have no way to confirm that this cycle.
 
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KnightDoc

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Well you are right, the timeline doesnt say it.
I know from seeing the early version of the CYMS last cycle that after 4/30 when an individual student who PTE/CTE got an acceptance off the WL, it would be noted on the system. That was intentional for enrollment planning and would make sense it still is in place, but I have no way to confirm that this cycle.
You have been my go-to expert on the tool, so I was wondering if you knew something they didn't publish publicly.

I have been operating on the assumption (I know that's a dangerous thing!) that what they have published is correct, and to avoid just the type of anti-competitive conduct some candidates are afraid of (needing a PTE's school's permission to hold another A after 4/30 to allow that other school time to compete with the PTE school on price), AAMC has deliberately chosen not to provide that level of visibility to the schools. Taking AAMC at its word, enforcement is in the hands of the other schools, not the PTE/CTE schools, since all schools can see the PTE/CTE at other schools for their As and WLs, but it does not appear to work the other way around!
 
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gonnif

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You have been my go-to expert on the tool, so I was wondering if you knew something they didn't publish publicly.

I have been operating on the assumption (I know that's a dangerous thing!) that what they have published is correct, and to avoid just the type of anti-competitive conduct some candidates are afraid of (needing a PTE's school's permission to hold another A after 4/30 to allow that other school time to compete with the PTE school on price), AAMC has deliberately chosen not to provide that level of visibility to the schools. Taking AAMC at its word, enforcement is in the hands of the other schools, not the PTE/CTE schools, since all schools can see the PTE/CTE at other schools for their As and WLs, but it does not appear to work the other way around!

A things here to keep in mind
1) in the pre-CYMS system, school "B" that had you on a WL and were going to offer you an acceptance was required to contact school "A" where you already held an acceptance. The reason being again for enrollment planning and not having an empty seat. That is in the culture of medical school admissions so I am sure much that still goes on
2) On a PTE, your acceptance school knows that you may be on a WL. Indeed it is assumed that if you remain on a WL, you would take that new school over the one where you hold acceptance.
3) The underlying data/system between AMCAS, the processing company and the schools certainly has the info on a student. I am sure there is a way that the "front end" at the schools can be configured so reports on PTE and CTE students will be flagged when they have a new acceptance. As an admissions officer I would certainly want to know this as when a PTE gets a new acceptance, it would be assumed they will go there. Else, why would you have remained on a WL. Now whether the front end actually gets this configuration, if reports are set to run this, If schools actually do this, I dont know. If I were to do it, I would set a 5 day flag on it. That is, if PTE student X gets a new acceptance on the report, 5 days latter I would generate an email inquiring reminding them to withdraw or change their PTE. After two weeks another letter. Then final letter.
4) since each school now sets its own policy, I would suggest PTE students who get a WL acceptance, send an email to both schools quoting the AAMC guidelines on how long you should be allowed to decide
5) However, I also think that every student should have their WL schools "ranked" and should know immediately to take the acceptance or not. You remained on the WL so presumably that is where you want to go.
 
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KnightDoc

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A things here to keep in mind
1) in the pre-CYMS system, school "B" that had you on a WL and were going to offer you an acceptance was required to contact school "A" where you already held an acceptance. The reason being again for enrollment planning and not having an empty seat. That is in the culture of medical school admissions so I am sure much that still goes on
2) On a PTE, your acceptance school knows that you may be on a WL. Indeed it is assumed that if you remain on a WL, you would take that new school over the one where you hold acceptance.
3) The underlying data/system between AMCAS, the processing company and the schools certainly has the info on a student. I am sure there is a way that the "front end" at the schools can be configured so reports on PTE and CTE students will be flagged when they have a new acceptance. As an admissions officer I would certainly want to know this as when a PTE gets a new acceptance, it would be assumed they will go there. Else, why would you have remained on a WL. Now whether the front end actually gets this configuration, if reports are set to run this, If schools actually do this, I dont know. If I were to do it, I would set a 5 day flag on it. That is, if PTE student X gets a new acceptance on the report, 5 days latter I would generate an email inquiring reminding them to withdraw or change their PTE. After two weeks another letter. Then final letter.
4) since each school now sets its own policy, I would suggest PTE students who get a WL acceptance, send an email to both schools quoting the AAMC guidelines on how long you should be allowed to decide
5) However, I also think that every student should have their WL schools "ranked" and should know immediately to take the acceptance or not. You remained on the WL so presumably that is where you want to go.
Everything you are saying makes all the sense in the world, so I totally see why you think this. I, on the other hand, am unburdened by being an admissions professional who spent many years operating under the old system. AAMC took away the MAR and revamped the entire system for a reason. All of the assumptions you are making with respect to how reports can be configured would undermine these changes.

I get that in the old days, school B would reach out to school A, and that it was in all the schools' interest to do so. It was not so much in the students' interest. AAMC took away school B's ability to know who school A is, so they can't contact them. THIS IS NOT AN ACCIDENT; IT'S BY DESIGN!!!! In the new world, why would AAMC take this away, but give PTE schools the ability to configure a report and get it anyway (minus the name of the specific school)?

Of course you would want all of this information as an admission officer. The fact is that AAMC, out of fear of potential antitrust litigation, took it away from you because it only served your interests and inhibited candidates' ability to benefit from competition between schools, especially after 4/30. Schools are now free to compete on price, and poach to their heart's content. The only limit on this is a school's ability to require, as a condition of keeping an A, that a candidate select PTE/CTE by a certain date. All schools at which a candidate holds an A or a WL can see PTE/CTE after 4/30, and they can either allow the student to keep the A or WL, or they can rescind it. The PTE/CTE school cannot see the other As or WLs because allowing them to do so would give back to them some of the ability to act anticompetitively that AAMC just took away.

To quote you -- schools do not have to give a candidate price transparency before requiring them to make a decision. Maybe they wouldn't want to allow candidates to have the necessary time to receive a FA offer from another school after 4/30 either. Tough -- that's why they can't see the other A or WL, and don't get a vote anymore. Honestly, you are only thinking about this from the schools' point of view, and are failing to take into account that the tools made available to schools in managing this process changed for a reason.

Schools have all the leverage until applicants receive multiple As, at which point it changes. Schools previously used the MAR to limit this leverage, and AAMC thought this might create legal issues down the road, so they took it away, along with all the other goodies schools could use to manage their yield and limit the amount of price competition between the schools. The advice you give regarding telling a PTE about a new A (apparently, if candidates don't do so, they risk jeopardizing their A through some unpublicized ability the schools have to mine AAMC acceptance and WL data), and maybe seeking their permission to keep the A for whatever extended period the new school might allow someone to keep it only serves to undermine the new power the AAMC has graciously decided to grant applicants.

By the way, in this brave new world, some people might want to stay on WLs not because they prefer them over their PTE school, but because they want to see if an A from a WL might turn into a money offer that could be used to get money from the PTE school. Or maybe money would turn the WL school into a first choice. You never know if you don't let it play out.
 
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yerrrrrrrrrrrrr

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By the way, in this brave new world, some people might want to stay on WLs not because they prefer them over their PTE school, but because they want to see if an A from a WL might turn into a money offer that could be used to get money from the PTE school. Or maybe money would turn the WL school into a first choice. You never know if you don't let it play out.

If SDN is any indicator, this seems to be quite common. I see a lot of people posting that they got into their top choice schools with good scholarships, but are staying on multiple WL's for god knows why, I guess to wait for better bargains at other schools, which are not their top choice? As someone living the WL life, this is a little difficult to wrap my head around.

I don't know if this would go against the AAMC's goals of restricting information, but the way I imagine it, wouldn't it make sense to allow applicants to rank their WL's in a way that's similar to residency matching? Or at least to have an option to alert only one WL school that they are the #1 choice ? That way someone who has PTE'd to a school where theyve been accepted, and who is on multiple WL's, can communicate their interest to their most preferred school, so that school knows they are almost 100% likely to attend, pull them off the WL sooner, and they can PTE/CTE/withdraw accordingly. Does that make sense? And the other WL schools wouldn't be able to see that they ranked one school as a preferred WL choice, it would just be an option but not mandatory, as probably not everyone has a #1 preferred WL school. Kind of like a more automated version of a LOI.

To me it makes sense but apparently making sense is not a requisite factor when drafting AMCAS policies lol
 
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KnightDoc

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Only ours and at least one other, not how many others.
And again, to be clear, you cannot see yours and at least one other if you are the PTE/CTE school, correct? You can only see one other if you are the WL or recent A school, and all you can see is the other PTE/CTE, correct? This seems to be where everyone, including some of the other adcoms, keep getting tripped up. Or do I have it wrong????
 
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gyngyn

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And again, to be clear, you cannot see yours and at least one other if you are the PTE/CTE school, correct? You can only see one other, and only if you are the WL or recent A school, and all you can see is the other PTE/CTE, correct? This seems to be where everyone, including some of the other adcoms, keep getting tripped up. Or do I have it wrong????
We can see that our accepted students are PTE or CTE elsewhere. We cannot see how many other acceptances they hold.
 
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KnightDoc

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We can see that our accepted students are PTE or CTE elsewhere. We cannot see how many other acceptances they hold.
Right -- and after 4/30, assuming your accepted students are PTE or CTE at your school, you couldn't see if they held acceptances or WLs elsewhere, correct? That's the very issue that keeps coming up, and that many candidates and some advisers are failing to understand.
 
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gyngyn

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Right -- and after 4/30, assuming your accepted students are PTE or CTE at your school, you couldn't see if they held acceptances or WLs elsewhere, correct? That's the very issue that keeps coming up, and that many candidates and some advisers are failing to understand.
AMCAS records individual changes from the previous day but we can only know the more distant past if we took screen shots.
We can presume that they hold WL's if someone is PTE.
 
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gonnif

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If SDN is any indicator, this seems to be quite common. I see a lot of people posting that they got into their top choice schools with good scholarships, but are staying on multiple WL's for god knows why, I guess to wait for better bargains at other schools, which are not their top choice? As someone living the WL life, this is a little difficult to wrap my head around.

I don't know if this would go against the AAMC's goals of restricting information, but the way I imagine it, wouldn't it make sense to allow applicants to rank their WL's in a way that's similar to residency matching? Or at least to have an option to alert only one WL school that they are the #1 choice ? That way someone who has PTE'd to a school where theyve been accepted, and who is on multiple WL's, can communicate their interest to their most preferred school, so that school knows they are almost 100% likely to attend, pull them off the WL sooner, and they can PTE/CTE/withdraw accordingly. Does that make sense? And the other WL schools wouldn't be able to see that they ranked one school as a preferred WL choice, it would just be an option but not mandatory, as probably not everyone has a #1 preferred WL school. Kind of like a more automated version of a LOI.

To me it makes sense but apparently making sense is not a requisite factor when drafting AMCAS policies lol
Yes. They were afraid of being sued.

The politics within the federal DOE and threat of lawsuits by the government essentially forced AAMC to stop providing centralized information as it could be considered a form of market collusion. The the head of the enforcement at the DOE is a former official at DeVry University when it was successfully sued by the previous administration.
 
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yerrrrrrrrrrrrr

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The politics within the federal DOE and threat of lawsuits by the government essentially forced AAMC to stop providing centralized information as it could be considered a form of market collusion. The the head of the enforcement at the DOE is a former official at DeVry University when it was successfully sued by the previous administration.

retaliation is so gross. That being said my WL turned into a fat A today (god damn, feels like ive been waiting years to say that) so i have no further complaints, though i do wish the best for those who are still stuck in limbo :)
 
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