Can programs not rank you after interview?

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microshar88

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Hi all,
I interviewed at a program I really like. Its for psych and I'm a DO candidate. The location is good for me and it seems like a solid place to be. I had multiple interviewers and all of them went ok to good. Except my last couple where I felt like I really screwed up.

I plan on sending a thank you note to the PD and PC. But the last interviewer really didn't give me good vibes at all. Is it possible for them to not rank me after the interview? One of my fellow audition rotation students told me that they typically give you a # as to how they view you on their scale of applicants, is this not the case?

Thanks in advance.
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I assumed that programs didn't rank all 50-100 candidates that they interview.
 
AMEHigh said:
I assumed that programs didn't rank all 50-100 candidates that they interview.
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Programs rank almost everyone, just some people get ranked quite low.

That said, almost everyone is NOT everyone. There's people that end up DNR for some reason or another, frequently by being rude to the non-interviewing staff. (i.e. do NOT be rude to the program coordinator. It's your death knell)
 
Raryn said:
Programs rank almost everyone, just some people get ranked quite low.

That said, almost everyone is NOT everyone. There's people that end up DNR for some reason or another, frequently by being rude to the non-interviewing staff. (i.e. do NOT be rude to the program coordinator. It's your death knell)
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Many programs routinely have a half dozen or so people they choose not to rank, for a variety of reasons. If you interview 100 people I promise you there will be a handful that just rub you the wrong way such that you'd rather just pick someone up from SOAP instead. And obviously programs that historically fill in the top 30 or so spots dont necessarilly rank the 100 they may interview if they only found 70 up to par. In my experience a few of these DNRs will come from the residents, who are generally better able to ferret out the troubling personalities they don't want to work with. So yes it's absolutely possible to interview and not get ranked. And the only way you'll ever know is if you fail to match but see a place you interviewed at filling via SOAP.
 
I've heard from a couple programs that 10-20% of interviewees get added to the DNR list.
 
OP, if you worry about 1 more thing this interview season you will explode. You certainly don't need to start worrying about things you can no longer control.
 
Law2Doc said:
If you interview 100 people I promise you there will be a handful that just rub you the wrong way ....So yes it's absolutely possible to interview and not get ranked. And the only way you'll ever know is if you fail to match but see a place you interviewed at filling via SOAP.
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As someone this happened to, I can't tell you how horrible it feels to walk away really liking a program, feeling like the interview went well, and being told that they were going to rank everybody only to see that program's name on the SOAP list after you failed to match. You would think a brief, kind email inquiring as to what their reservation was might have been met with a kind response, but sadly no, just silence. It's like a punch to the gut leaving you wondering "what's so wrong with me" for months to come.
 
IMPD said:
Sure. In a related question, can an applicant come to my program, eat my bagels and then not rank us?
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Do you think an applicant would spend a day of their time (for current med students--a day out of their school's rotation), airfare in the hundrers of $$, to not rank you?

If you are going to interview someone and not rank them, I think some time of communication should be made. You should say..."sweetie we appreciate your interest in our program. thanks for doing an audiiton with us. but you are way out of our league/too introverted/too much baggage/you need to work on your ppl skills or something."

Honestly, I think unless someone is truly awful, I think they should at least get a rank.
 
ari202 said:
Do you think an applicant would spend a day of their time (for current med students--a day out of their school's rotation), airfare in the hundrers of $$, to not rank you?

If you are going to interview someone and not rank them, I think some time of communication should be made. You should say..."sweetie we appreciate your interest in our program. thanks for doing an audiiton with us. but you are way out of our league/too introverted/too much baggage/you need to work on your ppl skills or something."

Honestly, I think unless someone is truly awful, I think they should at least get a rank.
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People interview at a program, realize they don't like it and would rather not match than see themselves end up there, and don't rank that location. It happens. Obviously not very common, but definitely happens; I've heard from friends that are now interns about places they paid money (some to fly to) and were so turned off by the program/PD/scheduling/etc that they didn't rank it come February.
Also, remember that not everyone is flying to every single interview for residency. As a MS4, I've driven to > 50% of my advanced specialty interviews, and driven to all of my prelim interviews. Costs are real, but just because I interviewed at a place (that I would have absolutely no desire to end up at) doesn't mean I'd automatically rank the program (although in my case, I would rank every advanced position I got)

For example, if I interviewed at a prelim IM year that has 10 months of floor/ICU months, no elective time, and prelims are treated like crap compared to categoricals, I probably wouldn't rank it. I know that at least one prelim like this exists based on one of the advanced residency residents who did that atrocious prelim (not one I applied to, as I am too smart to apply to NYC prelims).

I think a program should not have to take an applicant that they objectively do not want (and would rather SOAP for a candidate if necessary), and I don't think an applicant should be forced to attend a program that they have no desire (and would rather be unmatched) to actually attend for residency. In both situations, it will lead to 3-7 years of tension from one side to the other.

Regarding your second paragraph, that's a slightly different issue. If someone does an audition rotation at a location and does well, they generally expect an interview. However, the reason for a mediocre student (who will not get an interview at that site even if they **** rainbows and act like a PGY-3, due to their scores/grades) to do an away rotation at a high-ranked place can be multifocal. For example, in the field I'm applying for, a LOR from a big name is a huge boon to an application, and doing an away in a specific region can show other less competitive residency programs (in that same region) that you're serious about possibly living in that area, opening up the possibilities of interviewing at other places. For example, I have a friend who did a Rad Onc rotation at MD Anderson in Texas (one of the top 3 Rad Onc programs in the country). He got a letter from the attending he worked with, and while he didn't get an interview at MD Anderson, he interviewed at a multitude of other Texas hospitals, and actually ended up matching at a Texas hospital come March. All of this was as a student from the northeast who had no personal ties to Texas.

However, what you're suggesting is in practice on a small scale: Penn Derm, I believe, has put a disclaimer on their visiting medical student page stating that doing an audition rotation at Penn Derm will NOT guarantee you an interview at the program. I feel like this is generally understood and is somewhat common sense, but I'm sure they've had issues in the past, so they addressed it directly on their website.

All of this talk, however, is kind of moot. Most programs (I imagine, maybe some residents can chime in on this) will rank you if they interview you. That being said, I'm not sure what the practical difference between being dead-last on the rank list and not being ranked at all is (especially since the programs that would likely not rank you are the more competitive/coveted programs within their fields).
 
We get a ridiculous number of applications for our fellowship. Even after screening out 2/3 of the applicants we still don't rank a few people every year. It's usually a personality issue that would suggest a bad fit and a long and painful year for everyone. It's even more competitive than they think as we don't put all our spots into the match and cherry pick superstars who apply outside of the match.
 
I will add that the program where I did my fellowship would not rank at least 1/3 of the resident applicants that it interviewed. They would meet in the library and discuss applicants after the interview day. I had an elective month during interview season and was there for a couple of these discussions. It was a powerhouse program and had the luxury taking the best of the best. Their comments were brutal.
 
ari202 said:
Do you think an applicant would spend a day of their time (for current med students--a day out of their school's rotation), airfare in the hundrers of $$, to not rank you?

If you are going to interview someone and not rank them, I think some time of communication should be made. You should say..."sweetie we appreciate your interest in our program. thanks for doing an audiiton with us. but you are way out of our league/too introverted/too much baggage/you need to work on your ppl skills or something."

Honestly, I think unless someone is truly awful, I think they should at least get a rank.
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You say that as a student. As a resident (I hate pulling rank) there a few people every year we request not to be ranked for many reasons. That said, if we know people are going to be potentially interviewing with us, we try to stop it at that point if need be because it makes an interview spot available for another candidate.

The problem with ranking everyone is the match process. If you interview someone and they turn out to be an a-hole, why risk them coming to your program? Residents, faculty members and staff do not want to work with a-holes. Don't risk them matching.
 
Bacchus said:
You say that as a student. As a resident (I hate pulling rank) there a few people every year we request not to be ranked for many reasons. That said, if we know people are going to be potentially interviewing with us, we try to stop it at that point if need be because it makes an interview spot available for another candidate.

The problem with ranking everyone is the match process. If you interview someone and they turn out to be an a-hole, why risk them coming to your program? Residents, faculty members and staff do not want to work with a-holes. Don't risk them matching.
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The question is whether a program would rather go with a spot unmatched than get an a-hole. And for certain a-holes, the answer is yes.
 
ok, so let say for internal medicine, family med and psych (some less competitive specialties), when you say that you would not rank someone is it because they didn't come across as confident? or maybe they were a little nervous on the interview day?

I'm not the most witty interviewee and sometimes I'm a little slow due to nervousness, but I am not an a-hole by any means, would I still not get ranked?

On a related note, I highly doubt that you will get cocky a-holes in your interview batch. I can wholeheartedly say, that a majority of my colleagues, people who auditioned with me, and people I have met on the interview trail are sweet, good-natured people who may not be the most street-smart and clever people, but they have heart, integrity, and would make good team players, I think that has to count for something.

I may say this as a student, but if I were a PD, I would want someone who is good-natured and maybe even shy, rather than someone who is aggressive and cocky all the time. Confidence comes with experience and the right person is someone who doesn't rub people the wrong way (doesn't fight with nurses, treats everyone with respect).
Being an shy introvert is not necessarily a bad thing either as you don't want someone who spends all day talking and boasting about how superior they are to everyone else.
 
We do 80 interviews a year for my program. Its a very good program that not many people know about. Unfortunately, sometimes our incoming classes reflect this. Such as: "How in the hell did this person get matched to us?" That said, everyone that we rank, we feel we more than likely at least work with. Or, they at least put a good act on interview day.

It takes a lot to not rank someone. The most awkward of awkward people usually get ranked, but lower on the list.

Someone we would think twice about may be an interviewee who kept checking his phone during lunch or prior to that kept checking his watch during the program director's presentation. Yeah, these are minor things, but common sense goes a LONG WAY.
 
ari202 said:
ok, so let say for internal medicine, family med and psych (some less competitive specialties), when you say that you would not rank someone is it because they didn't come across as confident? or maybe they were a little nervous on the interview day?

I'm not the most witty interviewee and sometimes I'm a little slow due to nervousness, but I am not an a-hole by any means, would I still not get ranked?

On a related note, I highly doubt that you will get cocky a-holes in your interview batch. I can wholeheartedly say, that a majority of my colleagues, people who auditioned with me, and people I have met on the interview trail are sweet, good-natured people who may not be the most street-smart and clever people, but they have heart, integrity, and would make good team players, I think that has to count for something.

I may say this as a student, but if I were a PD, I would want someone who is good-natured and maybe even shy, rather than someone who is aggressive and cocky all the time. Confidence comes with experience and the right person is someone who doesn't rub people the wrong way (doesn't fight with nurses, treats everyone with respect).
Being an shy introvert is not necessarily a bad thing either as you don't want someone who spends all day talking and boasting about how superior they are to everyone else.
Click to expand...
Family medicine does a good bit of self selection. It's evident that you either have people who want to genuinely do family medicine or those that are "forced" to apply. In general, its evident based on the ERAS report of board scores, haha. That said, as I've "recently" open up about, failing boards and applying FM doesn't mean you don't want to do it, or you're a bad person, or that you're a poor test taker. We often don't take board scores into account at all unless there is something very troubling.
 
ari202 said:
ok, so let say for internal medicine, family med and psych (some less competitive specialties), when you say that you would not rank someone is it because they didn't come across as confident? or maybe they were a little nervous on the interview day?

I'm not the most witty interviewee and sometimes I'm a little slow due to nervousness, but I am not an a-hole by any means, would I still not get ranked?

On a related note, I highly doubt that you will get cocky a-holes in your interview batch. I can wholeheartedly say, that a majority of my colleagues, people who auditioned with me, and people I have met on the interview trail are sweet, good-natured people who may not be the most street-smart and clever people, but they have heart, integrity, and would make good team players, I think that has to count for something.

I may say this as a student, but if I were a PD, I would want someone who is good-natured and maybe even shy, rather than someone who is aggressive and cocky all the time. Confidence comes with experience and the right person is someone who doesn't rub people the wrong way (doesn't fight with nurses, treats everyone with respect).
Being an shy introvert is not necessarily a bad thing either as you don't want someone who spends all day talking and boasting about how superior they are to everyone else.
Click to expand...

Being a little shy won't cause a program to not rank you. If you act like a mute on the interview day, can't make eye contact, and don't answer questions then that's a different story.

As far as cocky a$$hole medical students. Trust me, they are out there in decent numbers in EVERY specialty. I was a resident at a community program that would likely be regarded as a safety program. Every year we would get a couple of medical students from one or two of the close by schools that are well regarded and they would act like we should be in awe that they graced us with their presence.

PDs don't care if you're witty. They want someone who will shut up, do their work, and pass their boards.
 
IlDestriero said:
We get a ridiculous number of applications for our fellowship. Even after screening out 2/3 of the applicants we still don't rank a few people every year. It's usually a personality issue that would suggest a bad fit and a long and painful year for everyone. It's even more competitive than they think as we don't put all our spots into the match and cherry pick superstars who apply outside of the match.
Click to expand...
thought the ACGME frowned on the outside the match thing for fellowships.
 
ari202 said:
On a related note, I highly doubt that you will get cocky a-holes in your interview batch. .
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wait til you are on the other side of things...you would be amazed at what people will or how they will act on interview day...quiet and nervous is one thing...and m/l won't label you DNR...
 
rokshana said:
thought the ACGME frowned on the outside the match thing for fellowships.
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They can frown on it all they want, but they don't require it. Things were easier without the match for everyone, but now the non premier program applicants have a better chance of matching here, and that might actually be better for everyone.
 
anonperson said:
Being a little shy won't cause a program to not rank you. If you act like a mute on the interview day, can't make eye contact, and don't answer questions then that's a different story.

As far as cocky a$$hole medical students. Trust me, they are out there in decent numbers in EVERY specialty. I was a resident at a community program that would likely be regarded as a safety program. Every year we would get a couple of medical students from one or two of the close by schools that are well regarded and they would act like we should be in awe that they graced us with their presence.

PDs don't care if you're witty. They want someone who will shut up, do their work, and pass their boards.
Click to expand...

I did a little bit of this with the residents as he was constantly looking at me and smiling, so I avoided eye contact. But I honestly can't keep talking forever, so I hope that not talking nonstop is going to hurt me.

do any programs ever e-mail you that they will rank you at all? i think usc did for its psych program but idk about others.
 
IlDestriero said:
They can frown on it all they want, but they don't require it. Things were easier without the match for everyone, but now the non premier program applicants have a better chance of matching here, and that might actually be better for everyone.
Click to expand...
actually just received a survey about fellowships going "all in" as well...so it may well be in the future for fellowship matches as well...
 
Last edited:
DNR is not just shy or awkward. Those people get ranked. It's about really rubbing people the wrong way. If someone reports back that a person is abrasive or that it would be uncomfortable to be stuck with them on the wards, in the OR, etc, that could lead to them not being ranked.
 
rokshana said:
thought the ACGME frowned on the outside the match thing for fellowships.
Click to expand...

The ACGME doesn't care how you get your trainees, just that you don't go over your limit. The NRMP is the organization that has a say, so to speak, in this. However, it applies to residencies not fellowships. Residencies have to be all in or all out, meaning they either have to fill all their positions through the match, or none of them.
 
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