can residents unionize

[BobbyB]

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http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/201...l-residents-are-not-competent-enough-unionize

Mount Sinai Beth Israel hospital is fighting back against its medical residents' bid to unionize, saying they aren't eligible to organize because they're students, not staff.

Although 25 other hospitals in New York City alone have residents who have unionized, Beth Israel argued in its May 28 papers that its residents' program is less professional than those with unions and that its residents "are not employees."

should residents be allowed to unionize? do you consider them students or employees?

 

[DrOwnage]

I'm confused how they are regarded as students when they have their M.D degree and are paid a salary. Seems like some lawyer shenanigans.

 

[mirabelle]

My opinion: http://www.wisegeek.org/what-is-a-divide-and-conquer-strategy.htm
If not, then why isn't it allowed?

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

This article starts off sounding like the Onion.

"Beth Israel argued in its May 28 papers that its residents' program is less professional than those with unions and that its residents "are not employees."

"Dr. Daniel Steinberg, director of Beth Israel's internal medicine residency program, testified that his residents were unable to evaluate patients or make decisions as quickly as attending physicians."
"The residents have not reached that level of competency yet," Steinberg said.

Dr. Pierre Kory, a pulmonologist at Beth Israel, told the NLRB that even third-year residents need an attending physician's help to do "almost anything of importance."

Edit

 

[Priapism4tooLong]

Wow, this is a joke.

So are they saying if the residents were more competent then they would be staff??? BS, its some political nonsense, i guarantee you those residents are just fine

Edit: with dickhead attendings saying **** like that, its no wonder they unionize.

And happy resident graduation day!

 

[Doctor Bob]

I'll bet that's a fun place to work right now... the level of animosity between residents and staff must be thick enough to cut with a knife.

I mean... if any of them were competent enough to use a knife...





🙂

 

[BobbyB]

I'll bet that's a fun place to work right now... the level of animosity between residents and staff must be thick enough to cut with a knife.

I mean... if any of them were competent enough to use a knife...





🙂

haha

nothing like throwing residents under the bus to make yourself look good for corporate

 

[styphon]

Wow...I can't believe they would state they have the worst program in the city in a desperate attempt to avoid unions and if your third years "can't do anything without attendings" then how the hell are they ready to practice when they graduate - which usually is THIS MONTH! Maybe ACGME needs to look into the program if the administration is telling the truth (doubtful)

The residency programs around here attempted to unionize - the largest hospital system said they would take all of perks which include parking (without the lot, you park near crack houses), a call room, a meeting room, and the 15% off lunch (woooh) until the negotations were over.

 

[alpinism]

Dr. Pierre Kory, a pulmonologist at Beth Israel, told the NLRB that even third-year residents need an attending physician's help to do "almost anything of importance."

Lol Wat

 

[DermViser]

Dr. Pierre Kory, a pulmonologist at Beth Israel, told the NLRB that even third-year residents need an attending physician's help to do "almost anything of importance."

Lol Wat

The MICU is going to be very awkward tomorrow...

 

[DermViser]

The residency programs around here attempted to unionize - the largest hospital system said they would take all of perks which include parking (without the lot, you park near crack houses), a call room, a meeting room, and the 15% off lunch (woooh) until the negotations were over.

You can't be serious. Where are residents on call supposed to sleep?

 

[circulus vitios]

It would be cool if Beth Israel administrators were crucified.

Figuratively, of course.

 

[Psai]

Dr. Pierre Kory, a pulmonologist at Beth Israel, told the NLRB that even third-year residents need an attending physician's help to do "almost anything of importance."

Lol Wat

Those are some big words coming from a Caribbean grad.

 

[Pathvisor - AVOID PATH]

Dr. Pierre Kory, a pulmonologist at Beth Israel, told the NLRB that even third-year residents need an attending physician's help to do "almost anything of importance."

Lol Wat

Such blatant hypocrisy, it almost surprises me these people have the gall to make these statements in public. The most glaring error of their bs is saying that residents shouldn't be able to form unions because they're not as competent as attendings. That makes no difference whatsoever! Workers should always be able to form groups, whether they work as a janitor, a RN, a PA or any other job. Where you're at on the totem pole is irrelevant. And if residents really don't do anything of any significant value, do these people truly think all the residents' work could be done by them or are they just hoping the public isn't keen enough to know it's bs?

Yes, residents get instruction from attendings and often have to run things by them before acting, but that is why the tradeoff is justified for paying them a fraction of the attending's salary. Just like any other job you start out a little lower and get to make more money, have more decision-making authority, etc. as you learn more and move up the ladder. To say all the lower people don't matter is just stupid.

 

[DrBowtie]

I thought the Supreme Court already ruled that residents are employees?

 

[link2swim06]

I thought the Supreme Court already ruled that residents are employees?

They did....hence why we have to pay taxes....

Most professions have very analogous on-the-job training as residents. It's just not as formalized of a system in other professions.

 

[DermViser]

I thought the Supreme Court already ruled that residents are employees?

Yes they did rule that residents are employees (the Mayo case I believe). The NLRB ruled that residents can unionize, much to the consternation of the AAMC at the time: http://www.newswise.com/articles/aamc-president-criticizes-nlrb-ruling

 

[DrBowtie]

Yes they did rule that residents are employees (the Mayo case I believe). The NLRB ruled that residents can unionize, much to the consternation of the AAMC at the time: http://www.newswise.com/articles/aamc-president-criticizes-nlrb-ruling

I guess I'm confused then why the OP states that the hospital is trying to say they are students.

 

[DermViser]

I guess I'm confused then why the OP states that the hospital is trying to say they are students.

I think the NLRB board decision only says residents CAN unionize. The NLRB gave the residents clearance and the hospital is contesting it. I thought this was interesting:

The Gramercy hospital wrote in legal papers to theNational Labor Relations Board last week that the federal body was wrong to clear the way for its 415 residents to vote next week on whether to join the Committee of Interns and Residents, which is part of the Service Employees International Union. Although 25 other hospitals in New York City alone have residents who have unionized, Beth Israel argued in its May 28 papers that its residents' program is less professional than those with unions and that its residents "are not employees."

Maybe I'm not understanding right, but are they actually accusing them of being unprofessional?

 

[Frazier]

It is unfortunate from any angle.

 

[CherryRedDracul]

Has Beth Israel never heard of "public relations" before?

 

[circulus vitios]

It sure would be funny if the ACGME launched an investigation into a program that by self-admission has 3rd year residents who are incompetent.

 

[Psai]

They care more about saving a few bucks than looking bad in front of the public. It's the prevailing theme of medicine these days.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

So...any Beth Israel residents here?

 

[DermViser]

They care more about saving a few bucks than looking bad in front of the public. It's the prevailing theme of medicine these days.

Saving a few bucks to be pocketed by CEOs and shareholders. Physicians, whether residents or attendings, are just employees to corporate types. And as always there always Benedict Arnold physicians ready to throw them under the bus.

 

[NickNaylor]

If these residents are so incompetent, then perhaps the attendings better start staffing their floors 24 hours a day, their surgeons should probably start managing their floor patients, and they might want to consider hiring a bunch of PAs at double the cost of residents to fill in the gaps.

 

[Nasrudin]

This discussion is fascinating. The legal issues but also the local ones.

BI dropped out of my top 3 ranks precisely because I sensed a poor work culture. Psych residents had to sneak around in 4th year to moonlight because some geezer nutjob hospital director who trained during the Eisenhower administration refused to let senior residents ply their skills in the competitive Manhattan market to turn some coin.

And this was just something I picked from little snippets of conversation and silent subtextual pauses after asking questions that followed a hunch.

Remember, applicants, to allow your intuitions to tell you things on the interview trail. I feel mine were vindicated. And I had no rational or factual basis for dropping this program.

 

[DermViser]

This discussion is fascinating. The legal issues but also the local ones.

BI dropped out of my top 3 ranks precisely because I sensed a poor work culture. Psych residents had to sneak around in 4th year to moonlight because some geezer nutjob hospital director who trained during the Eisenhower administration refused to let senior residents ploy their skills in the competitive Manhattan market to turn some coin.

And this was just something I picked from little snippets of conversation and silent subtextual pauses after asking questions that followed a hunch.

Remember, applicants, to allow your intuitions to tell you things on the interview trail. I feel mine were vindicated. And I had no rational or factual basis for dropping this program.

Yes, the performance on interview day is quite the Kabuki theater indeed.

 

[maxilofacial]

Waiting for that NY Times article...

 

[Nasrudin]

Yes, the performance on interview day is quite the Kabuki theater indeed.

Yep.

But don't get me wrong. I liked the residents there a lot. And the LES is awesome. It's just a hostile, overbearing top down culture is not my fave. Too many years as a union employee in San Francisco--home of the Longshoremen's Union that taught American labor how to take on The Man--have spoiled me to the benefits of having a representative voice at the contract negotiation meetings.

If they had a union you'd better believe they'd be able to moonlight. And there would surely be a mechanism in place for weeding out ****ty attendings.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Many employers contest their employee's attempts to unionize. Hospitals have been doing this for years. They always lose. Their argument is always that residents are students, not employees. BI will lose this also. But I agree that their arguments seem ridic.

 

[Pathisfun43S]

I think they should!!! that way they can lower work hours to 60/week!!
The 80 hour work week limit is BS!! That is still WAAYYY to much!
The unions should also push for better wages. If you going to make your slaves work 80 hours a week, they should at least be paid 75-100k (not starvation wages of 50k after being 200k indebt from med school)

Just my 2cents!

 

[NickNaylor]

I think they should!!! that way they can lower work hours to 60/week!!
The 80 hour work week limit is BS!! That is still WAAYYY to much!
The unions should also push for better wages. If you going to make your slaves work 80 hours a week, they should at least be paid 75-100k (not starvation wages of 50k after being 200k indebt from med school)

Just my 2cents!

$50k is roughly the median income in the US, so I'm not sure describing that kind of salary as "starvation wages" is quite accurate.

I also think there's no way in hell programs would agree to a reduced work hours restriction without a fight. There are already enough people who don't like the 80-hour restriction as it is.

 

[NontradCA]

$50k is roughly the median income in the US, so I'm not sure describing that kind of salary as "starvation wages" is quite accurate.

.

Actually, I think it speaks to how financially insecure the majority of Americans are more than it is hyperbole. We're talking about NY; 50k won't get you far.

 

[NickNaylor]

Actually, I think it speaks to how financially insecure the majority of Americans are more than it is hyperbole. We're talking about NY; 50k won't get you far.

That's a good point. But then again, NY is hardly the average; it's quite the hyperbole if we're talking about COL.

 

[Nasrudin]

That's a good point. But then again, NY is hardly the average; it's quite the hyperbole if we're talking about COL.

New York programs definitely pay more. Resident salary ranges 50-65 or so. Maybe a little lower or higher but close to that. On top of that some of the NYC programs offer subsidized housing that make it doable. In contrast, San Francisco or Bay Area programs--now at manhattanized rent levels--don't offer housing and only UCSF, if you can catch that bull by the horns, offers a housing stipend.

Also benefit packages vary pretty widely from free to a good chunk of your pay. Which if you consider more closely, the total compensation packages with rent subsidies creates more income variability than even the base pay range.

The program I'm about to start at is unionized. And lo and behold--close to top pay, full bennies, rent subsidies, etc. If you like a few programs the same and one is union, go union.

 

[LanaPeters]

Mayo Foundation v. The United States

http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/10pdf/09-837.pdf

IRS said that medical residents are subject to social security taxes because they are employees. Mayo foundation sued the IRS saying the IRS was wrong. Supreme Court eventually ruled unanimously (rare) that the IRS was correct and medical residents are employees.

Think about the lame logic being used to justify the student angle- it could be applied to basically any job under the sun to get out of paying taxes.......

 

[ThoracicGuy]

New York programs definitely pay more. Resident salary ranges 50-65 or so. Maybe a little lower or higher but close to that. On top of that some of the NYC programs offer subsidized housing that make it doable. In contrast, San Francisco or Bay Area programs--now at manhattanized rent levels--don't offer housing and only UCSF, if you can catch that bull by the horns, offers a housing stipend.

Also benefit packages vary pretty widely from free to a good chunk of your pay. Which if you consider more closely, the total compensation packages with rent subsidies creates more income variability than even the base pay range.

The program I'm about to start at is unionized. And lo and behold--close to top pay, full bennies, rent subsidies, etc. If you like a few programs the same and one is union, go union.

How much of your paycheck goes to the union each month?

 

[Nasrudin]

How much of your paycheck goes to the union each month?

Good question. I'm not sure yet. I'll have to check my first pay check.

Why do you ask? Hardly a random question it would seem. Just curious.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

Good question. I'm not sure yet. I'll have to check my first pay check.

Why do you ask? Hardly a random question it would seem. Just curious.

Those benefits don't come free. Unions take a bit of your pay each period in exchange. I wouldn't like that, personally.

 

[NickNaylor]

Those benefits don't come free. Unions take a bit of your pay each period in exchange. I wouldn't like that, personally.

Depends on what you think the perceived benefits of being in a union are, though, right? I'd agree with you if you had no desire to be in a union and didn't think they would do much for you - that would obviously suck. But then again, you might avoid programs that are unionized if that was big of an issue for somebody.

 

[tco]

It would be cool if Beth Israel administrators were crucified.

Figuratively, of course.

Not sure if this was an intentional Jewish-crucifixion comment or not...

 

[235009]

How much of your paycheck goes to the union each month?

It's around 1.5% which comes out to 450 to 600 a year based on most programs' salaries

 

[ThoracicGuy]

It's around 1.5% which comes out to 450 to 600 a year based on most programs' salaries

And that is $450-600 a year that a good portion will go to promoting political goals that many residents likely would be against. And I'm sure they make it so that every incoming resident is required to pay union dues, whether they want to or not. Personally, I don't like it.

 

[Porfirio]

And that is $450-600 a year that a good portion will go to promoting political goals that many residents likely would be against. And I'm sure they make it so that every incoming resident is required to pay union dues, whether they want to or not. Personally, I don't like it.

Personally, I think it is better than the alternative - no union and continued minimum wage treatment of residents. I am not yet a resident, but from what I have seen it is only slightly better than being a medical student.

 

[Nasrudin]

Union vs nonunion employment is not a theory or an ideology for me. It was the difference in being able to move ahead and apply to medical school. That's not to say that it doesn't have ideological consequences. Your dues are grouped in with funding political fights that the union decides to undertake. So I can see where if I believed in the unrestricted movement and leverage of global capital this would be disheartening to me as a resident. But I don't, so it doesn't.

Beyond the ideological consequence it's also true you're buying the protection of some dirtbag somewhere. I don't disagree with naming these as evils of the trade.

But my guess is you'd have to work enough years in blue collar labor to get it. If you've done that and you philosophically are still against it I respect your opinion. Not that I don't otherwise, it's just let's be honest. If you're inculcated with capital values and you never wish you had some strong arm support against your employers what are we really talking about except class difference.