Can you answer this question

[acetyl]

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I know the thread title is lame, but it's what popped into my head at the time. I ran across these two questions from a gracious soul who posted them in the interview feedback forum. I am kind of stumped on them, because I can't really discern how they are different. Here are the questions:

When did you face a moral dilemma and how did you face it?
When did you face an ethical dilemma and how did you face it?

I did a little google search and came across something that says that morality refers to what we would call moral standards and moral conduct. Thus, the first question might be asking something like when you were with yours friends and one of them stole something from a store...or something like you knew someone was cheating on an exam. Anyone agree/disagree?

From the same website I found that ethics refers to the study of those standards and conduct. Thus, an ethical dilemma might be when you were faced with a situation of whether to study philosophy or go out with your friends? I dunno about that one.

This is why I'm don't want to be a philosopher.

Also, here's another question that I thought was interesting and was curious as to others opinions:

Strengths and weaknesses of being a pharmacist?

This one is slightly different than the typical strength/weakness question that is asked, and rather weird because how is a prospective pharmacy student suppose to know what the strengths and weaknesses of being a pharmacist is?

I might say strengths would include stuff like respect, job stability, interesting work, getting to work in health care, making a difference in people's lives, nice salary..those types of things?
Weaknesses being things like having to go to school for 4 years to become the professional, dealing with rude customers, insurance companies, rude doctors/nurses, having to deal with the business side of pharmacy.

Anyone disagree or agree?

 

[honeykrown]

i believe the strenght and weakness woul dhave to be a wuality u have that would qualify u to be a good pahrmacist. Like critical thinking or maybe working long hours, effective listening skills etc. while ur weaknesses might have to deal with ur weaknesses that might not qualify u for a pharmacist (like mayb talking too much and leaking out confidential stuff u know)

For the ethical and moral stuff, its kinda hard.

Like some moral stuff might not be ethical,
Eg ur friends stealing, if its not u then its moral and also its ur job to report ( ethical i believe)

liek some nurses who believe pain is in the head and their patients do not need that extra morphine (their moral is to bear pain its in the head) but the ethics is pain is whateva the patient says it is give the med.

I hope u get me

 

[Me+PharmD]

Moral lends towards beliefs that have be instilled in you by family, friends, etc. Ethical beliefs are those which are universal that everyone should adhere to. Your own personal moral beliefs may not necessarily be synonymous with ethical beliefs.

 

[ButlerPharm.D.]

Morals I would say relates more to societal norms of behavior such as what is right and wrong. Ethics is a more complicated matter. I've taken healthcare ethics and they usually make you apply the 9 step decision making model to a decision. Of the following three, I would say your best bet would be Deontology.

Deontology is the view that, "morality either forbids or permits actions, which is done through moral norms. Simply put, the correctness of an action lies within itself, not in the consequences of the action."

Consequentialism states that, "the value of an action is determined by the value of its consequences rather than by the principle on which the action is performed or the virtue it expresses."

Utilitarianism is the belief that, "all actions are to be judged in terms of their utility in promoting the greatest happiness of the greatest number."

I hope this helps, I guess you could apply these principles to a patient case in order to determine if your actions would be "ethical" under the context of the view you have taken, i.e. Utilitarianism, Consequentialism, or Deontology.

 

[imperial frog]

Morals are considered more of an individual behavioral code that you follow. Ethics is considered a behavioral code that a group (society, organization, etc.) accepts as the correct way of following. They can cross of course.

 

[acetyl]

Morals are considered more of an individual behavioral code that you follow. Ethics is considered a behavioral code that a group (society, organization, etc.) accepts as the correct way of following. They can cross of course.

So something morally wrong (dilemma) could be like not putting dishes in the diswasher a certain way. This is proably only if you were raised by a slightly crazy, mother like myself.

I guess then ethics is more of like not killing someone or stealing. Hmm...trying to think of instances that differientate the two is kind of hard for me right now. I appreciate the input thus far.

 

[NexusMD]

So something morally wrong (dilemma) could be like not putting dishes in the diswasher a certain way. This is proably only if you were raised by a slightly crazy, mother like myself.

I guess then ethics is more of like not killing someone or stealing. Hmm...trying to think of instances that differientate the two is kind of hard for me right now. I appreciate the input thus far.

I guess you can say that morals are like your view of abortion, while ethics are your view of mass murdering.

Abortion has opponents and proponents, while I dont think you will find many (terrorist aside) who are supporters of mass murder

 

[sdn1977]

My view, as an interviewer & having been an interviewee....is that which is described closest by both Butler & Imperial Frog.

Morals describes the "rightness or wrongness" you've been exposed & raised with & thereby incorporate into your own personal belief system. So you have decided on the "rightness & wrongness" of any particular behavior, principle or standard of conduct.

Ethics now is the decision making process which incorporates not just your own morals (your own standard of conduct), but also those of the greater system.

The greater system can be your group of (hm...how shall we say - low life friends - just j/king!!!!😀 ) or the type of pharmacy you work in.

I'll give you a few examples of how this might play out in a few settings:

You're a retail pharmacist & firmly believe that the use of Plan B is against all your moral principles. However, the corporation you work for does not allow you to not dispense an rx without having signed the waiver prior to your employment. Now....if you've been given that opportunity & still choose to not fill the rx or dispense as otc.....ethically you are wrong, but still morally right (because you've held to your standards). If you have signed the waiver, you can ethically not fill the rx or dispense otc & give the rx back to the pt & refer them to someone else who can provide what the pt wants. You've satisfied both your moral & ethical standards.

Now...you're a hospital pharmacist. You're faced with a pharmacy resident who wants 800mg of ibuprofen to deal with an injury suffered during his off hours. Morally, you don't have any problem since he can get 800mg by using 4x200mg tablets - but nobody has any with them & the gift shop is closed. Ethically, you can't give drugs from the pharmacy supply without an rx. How would you deal with that? I've got solutions & have actually been in the circumstance in which it satisfied both my moral & ethical situations - any ideas???

Finally, you're a pharamcy research fellow & your last experiement is due to finish the day after your wife made airplane tickets home for Christmas. You've been collecting data all the time, so you can extrapolate safely what that last day's data will be....but, it is to be included in a publication in which other researchers have contributed. Morally you know what's right. Ethically, what do you choose?

Does that help to separate the two????

 

[acetyl]

Yeah, I think I understand the definition of the two terms, and I've been trying hard to think of times in my life when something interesting that applies to this question has come up. I'm not trying to steal anyones story, I'm just hoping that someone talking about certain issues will light a spark in my memory. Not too much is popping in the brain, at least that's interesting and would make the interviewer smile. I guess I've lived a boring life thus far, oh well, life is boring so I suppose I'm right on track.

I wouldn't have let 'em have any ibuprofen. Rules are rules.

Well, first I might have to speak with the woman about coming home when she came home, but that's besides the point in this situation I suppose. As far as I know, mentioning the extrapolation in the paper is probably ethically correct. I'm not familiar with research ethics but my gut feeling tells me to be an honest scientist and report what I do.

Does this waiver system you were referring to actually exist, and if so, I think it's pretty interesting. Care to elaborate more about it? I'm a little wet behind the ears and never have heard anything about it before.

 

[sdn1977]

Yeah, I think I understand the definition of the two terms, and I've been trying hard to think of times in my life when something interesting that applies to this question has come up. I'm not trying to steal anyones story, I'm just hoping that someone talking about certain issues will light a spark in my memory. Not too much is popping in the brain, at least that's interesting and would make the interviewer smile. I guess I've lived a boring life thus far, oh well, life is boring so I suppose I'm right on track.

I wouldn't have let 'em have any ibuprofen. Rules are rules, right?

Does this waiver system you were referring too actually exist, and if so, I think it's pretty interesting. Care to elaborate more about it. I'm a little wet behind the ears and never have heard anything about it before.

Yeah...rules are rules...but you've got to figure out options....otherwise you're employee is going out sick. So...find a physicians who is a friend - in other words - befriend an ER phyician, IM or whomever....someone who is willing to write for 10 Ibuprofen 800mg - send the employee to the outpt rx & get it filled for the employee rate.

The waiver thing - yeah - its standard practice in all states now....after the lawsuit in Michigan, Wyoming or wherever it was when the pharmacist refused to release the rx because he felt it was not "moral".

These were all real cases - your own personal morals can't interfere with your ethics.

So....acetyl...you've led this pristine life (other than your low-life friends😛 ) but...do you have siblings? Have they ever done something which would be morally wrong for your parents, but not for you & you chose not to "tell" because of the ethics of being a sibling. How about calling "safe" when you were the 2nd base umpire in the 5th grade & the kid wasn't really safe, but he was your friend??

What about drinking? Have you ever had a drink and gone behind the wheel? Did you ever feel you got home "safe" but lucky? Morally, you have no issues with drinking (perhaps - I may be making an assumption here...), but ethically, you know its not right.

What about premaritial sex? Or lying about where you were & who you were with???? Now...we are straying into territory that I really don't want to know the answers to...but you get my meaning.....

Morality & ethics have lots to do with choices - not paying for that pack of coke which was on the bottom of your cart & neither you nor the checker noticed to all the other stuff none of us (except for Caverject perhaps😀 ) want to know the details about.

But...you get the idea. Good luck! You'll think of something. Ask your folks - they'll help you remember😱 !

 

[acetyl]

Yeah...rules are rules...but you've got to figure out options....otherwise you're employee is going out sick. So...find a physicians who is a friend - in other words - befriend an ER phyician, IM or whomever....someone who is willing to write for 10 Ibuprofen 800mg - send the employee to the outpt rx & get it filled for the employee rate.

The waiver thing - yeah - its standard practice in all states now....after the lawsuit in Michigan, Wyoming or wherever it was when the pharmacist refused to release the rx because he felt it was not "moral".

I think your employee/coworker should fend for themselves if they are sick. If it is that bad, running down the street to a gas station might be just as easy or easier than trying to hunt down a busy doc, and definetly not a big deal to leave work for 20 minutes. Of course, I was raised by parents who told me to go to school regardless of how I felt, and would have to plead to them to take me to the doctor when I got strep. throat. I suppose it's good in a way because I can count the number of times I've been on antibiotics on one hand.

So the pharmacist got a rx, and didn't agree with it, and so they refused AND wouldn't give it back? Wow. That's crazy.

My sister was, and still is, a big brown noser. She would rather be reading a book on a beautiful day than playing outside. She was always the one telling my parents I was being bad...but I wasn't, I promise.

I guess I have had things happen to me in life with drinking and alcohol, but I don't think that's something an interviewer wants to hear about. Regardless of the scenario, it probably won't be seen well. The sex stuff can be argued over for days, and it's probably good I don't go there either.

I was thinking about a time when someone gives you too much change or drops a $20 bill, and how one might deal with it. I do have a case that I just thought about, it was last spring when I was teaching gen. chem. lab. I had a student rocking out her lab reports in the beginning of the semester. She wasn't missing hardly any points on the first few reports, but when she was in lab, she didn't know her rear from hard spot. I think that's how that saying goes. Anyway, it was obvious that somethign was going on, but she was incredibly nice, pretty, well liked, etc. I had to say something to the lab supervisor because I thought she was cheating. It wasn't long after my short talk with my boss that she stopped coming to lab. She was given an E in the class and given an academic offense for cheating.

 

[sdn1977]

I think your employee/coworker should fend for themselves if they are sick. If it is that bad, running down the street to a gas station might be just as easy or easier than trying to hunt down a busy doc, and definetly not a big deal to leave work for 20 minutes. Of course, I was raised by parents who told me to go to school regardless of how I felt, and would have to plead to them to take me to the doctor when I got strep. throat. I suppose it's good in a way because I can count the number of times I've been on antibiotics on one hand.

So the pharmacist got a rx, and didn't agree with it, and so they refused AND wouldn't give it back? Wow. That's crazy.

I guess I have had things happen to me in life with drinking and alcohol, but I don't think that's something an interviewer wants to hear about. Regardless of the scenario, it probably won't be seen well. The sex stuff can be argued over for days, and it's probably good I don't go there either.

I was thinking about a time when someone gives you too much change or drops a $20 bill, and how one might deal with it. I do have a case that I just thought about, it was last spring when I was teaching gen. chem. lab. I had a student rocking out her lab reports in the beginning of the semester. She wasn't missing hardly any points on the first few reports, but when she was in lab, she didn't know her rear from hard spot. I think that's how that saying goes. Anyway, it was obvious that somethign was going on, but she was incredibly nice, pretty, well liked, etc. I had to say something to the lab supervisor because I thought she was cheating. It wasn't long after my short talk with my boss that she stopped coming to lab. She was given an E in the class and given an academic offense for cheating.

So....fine - find what works for the situation & what you feel comfortable talking about.

However, if I can give you any advice (you didn't ask for it, I know!!!)...but when/if you come you have to tell the tale....don't be authoritative. Be humble, recognize there were/are two sides to everything - even something as thin as a pancake - but...be firm about what you've thought about and recognize that altho there are other significant opinions, you've thought about yours & you've made your decision. HOWEVER, being more educated within the field might change your outlook........

In other words - its a good thing to have opinions & have thought them through. But, your education hasn't stopped at your pre-reqs nor will it at your PharmD......there are so many more situations which haven't even occurred yet. Don't come across as closed minded, I guess.

 

[lvp0021]

Could you guys please define virtue and give an example? THanks...

 

[acetyl]

Your advice is always warranted and welcome with me. I'm a little fish in a large pond and probably always will be. I like making friends with the bigger fish.

I hear ya, but that's a fine line and probably more of an art to maintain than I'm truely capable of. I think I'm an open minded person, but the older I get the more I think I become like my father. He is a very this is the way to do things kind of guy, but I suppose most docs are like that, at least the olders ones more so than the younger ones. However, I do try to think, six times one way, half a dozen the other...

Could you guys please define virtue and give an example? THanks...

Oh snap, you thread hijacker:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtue

 

[sdn1977]

Could you guys please define virtue and give an example? THanks...

Are you asking in reference to healthcare or in general?

Virtue has many meanings....the one I applied to my children when they started dating has absolutely no application to my job......& has no application to who they are as adults (aaahhh we give up something as parents😳 ).

Do interviewers even ask about virtue anymore? - that implies a bit more moral judgement than asking about the difference between morality & ethics...but who knows???? Perhaps the religious based schools would ask about this.

In my mind - virtue has more to do with MY opinion of good moral excellence - which is judgmental on my part alone. IMO - that has no place within healthcare or my workplace....just in my life & my place of worship (who btw....aren't so virtuous as it turns out ). On the other hand...it may have to do with the SCHOOL'S opinion on what is good moral excellence, which may or may not coincide with your own.

But...others probably have other opinions.....

 

[lvp0021]

Hi... I know, I looked it up on the webstie you provided already and in some of my philosophy books also but it seems really complicated. They talk about its origin and all the goes. Could some one please provide a simple, easy-to-catch definition and an example? To me, it would be moral exellence and the action that you adhere to what you belive is right (your moral + ethical principles). I think an example would be a PharmD, having virtue, will not fill a rx from a MD for the MD himself. My sociology book also says it means good quality. Any input would be truely appreciated!

 

[sdn1977]

Your advice is always warranted and welcome with me. I'm a little fish in a large pond and probably always will be. I like making friends with the bigger fish.

I hear ya, but that's a fine line and probably more of an art to maintain than I'm truely capable of. I think I'm an open minded person, but the older I get the more I think I become like my father. He is a very this is the way to do things kind of guy, but I suppose most docs are like that, at least the olders ones more so than the younger ones. However, I do try to think, six times one way, half a dozen the other...


Oh snap, you thread hijacker:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtue

As hard as we try....we often become our parents. Remember that when choosing a spouse - do you like his/her mom/dad? She/he might become more like them than not......& that will (or should) last longer than your career.

 

[sdn1977]

Hi... I know, I looked it up on the webstie you provided already and in some of my philosophy books also but it seems really complicated. They talk about its origin and all the goes. Could some one please provide a simple, easy-to-catch definition and an example? To me, it would be moral exellence and the action that you adhere to what you belive is right (your moral + ethical principles). I think an example would be a PharmD, having virtue, will not fill a rx from a MD for the MD himself. My sociology book also says it means good quality. Any input would be truely appreciated!

When you get into our business...there really is no absolute "right or wrong" - except if you fill an rx with the wrong drug!

But...there are many shades of gray. A law may be written, but we have judgement abilities because of our education. If you always fall back on the law....you'll never test your judgement.

Should an MD write & should I fill that rx for him/herself - well...no. Not really - altho this is a state by state issue (you can go to the general residency forum to see a long thread on this issue). But....will I? Yes! Do I? Yes. Will I do it for a controlled substance - No - never! So...I have my own ethical limits & I have my moral standards (yes....a general surgery resident really does know all the implications involved in taking ocp & I have every reason to believe she will indeed get her yearly pap smear, but I'm not going to argue the issue on the Sunday she needs to start her next pack & has no refills!)

Its the gray areas in which you need to develop your professional abilities in dealing with the public and other professionals. Life experiences help you with this (oh...and observing others & not being judgemental - just watching & thinking what might you have done.).

Virtue is a wonderful quality unless it gets in the way of being a good health professional. There are not specific answers & often you'll doubt your judgement & say you'll do it differently next time. That's ok. That's professional development.

You aren't expected to have all the life and professional experiences which go into being a pharmacist who is 50 when you're a 22 yo applicant. So...you use your very best judgement at the time & be open and willing to accept new ideas & advancements.

 

[Julianne]

Oh snap, you thread hijacker:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtue

Okay, I got tickled at that...

 

[Farmercyst]

Ok so here's an example dealing with tuition reimbursement that may be applicable to us who aren't currently pharmacists, but really, really want to be.

My work authorizes tuition reimbursement for any degree/program/class that will further our career with the company. This can be anything from Spanish classes to allow me to do my job in multiple languages to finance or engineering so that I can take another job within the company.
I applied for and was successful in obtaining authorization from the company for tuition reimbursement for my Chemistry degree (biochem concentration) because the company hires Chemists.

I have yet to actually submit receipts for reimbursement (at a loss of ~$4000/yr x 4 years now.) because I feel that requesting reimbursement for classes I'm taking with no intention of furthering my career within the company would be morally wrong.

It's not ethically wrong because I "could" use the classes to perform a company function, and because I requested and received authorization for the use of the reimbursement program. I just felt it was morally wrong and haven't.

Virtuous, well, I'd say that's subjective. Someone who looks at the program and says I'm clearly within my rights for reimbursement would say I'm being stupid, not moral and therefore not virtuous. Someone with the same morals as I have would say that by maintaining personal integrity that I am being virtuous. I'll let the philosophers argue that point.

 

[sdn1977]

Ok so here's an example dealing with tuition reimbursement that may be applicable to us who aren't currently pharmacists, but really, really want to be.

My work authorizes tuition reimbursement for any degree/program/class that will further our career with the company. This can be anything from Spanish classes to allow me to do my job in multiple languages to finance or engineering so that I can take another job within the company.
I applied for and was successful in obtaining authorization from the company for tuition reimbursement for my Chemistry degree (biochem concentration) because the company hires Chemists.

I have yet to actually submit receipts for reimbursement (at a loss of ~$4000/yr x 4 years now.) because I feel that requesting reimbursement for classes I'm taking with no intention of furthering my career within the company would be morally wrong.

It's not ethically wrong because I "could" use the classes to perform a company function, and because I requested and received authorization for the use of the reimbursement program. I just felt it was morally wrong and haven't.

Virtuous, well, I'd say that's subjective. Someone who looks at the program and says I'm clearly within my rights for reimbursement would say I'm being stupid, not moral and therefore not virtuous. Someone with the same morals as I have would say that by maintaining personal integrity that I am being virtuous. I'll let the philosophers argue that point.

👍 Good example!