Can you apply MD when you are in the middle of a PhD program?

[roadroam]

hi guys, I'm just curious if you apply MD when you are in the middle of a PhD program?
Is it school specific or AMCAS has general guidlines.

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[dutchman]

That is viewed as big time selling out in the Academic community. Most medschools will need a letter from your advisor and dean before they accept you, if you are in any graduate program. You ae going to need a good reason.

 

[Gut Shot]

hi guys, I'm just curious if you apply MD when you are in the middle of a PhD program?
Is it school specific or AMCAS has general guidlines.

When I applied it was school specific (2000-2001 cycle), although I was at the tail end of my PhD. Some (most?) schools won't even look at you until you have PhD diploma in hand. Others are more lenient, and a letter will suffice from your advisor stating that you will be finished in time.

 

[TheRealMD]

If you're in the middle of a PhD program, most schools require that you finish your PhD before you are allowed to matriculate into their medical school. Most med schools will deny you admission until you've finished it (because thy are working on the assumption that you planned to finish it), but the will work with you in terms of planning your time so that you can finish it and still get in.

Remember that saying you're going to finish your PhD and then not finishing it is definite room for unacceptance.

 

[roadroam]

I fail to see how getting out of PhD is intepreted as sell out. I understand some PhD advisors are really close to their students. However this is not always the case. Some PhD programs often over-accept people and kick some out in the middle, and basically treat phds like crap. To me this kind of practise is purely evil.

 

[dutchman]

I fail to see how getting out of PhD is intepreted as sell out. I understand some PhD advisors are really close to their students. However this is not always the case. Some PhD programs often over-accept people and kick some out in the middle, and basically treat phds like crap. To me this kind of practise is purely evil.

No sir/mam. Typical Phd programs have no intentions of kicking anybody out. They often invest a lot in those students, and most of the students are involved in research, which helps the school. Now if a person flunks or something like that, then yes they will get kicked out.

 

[Gut Shot]

I fail to see how getting out of PhD is intepreted as sell out.

Are you looking to finish and go to med school or quit the PhD and go to med school?

 

[roadroam]

My PhD years are the worst years of my life. I've never felt so secluded from the real world. I want to quit PhD but if then don't get in MD program I would be very sad🙁 .

I will work in burger king if that happens.

 

[dutchman]

My PhD years are the worst years of my life. I've never felt so secluded from the real world. I want to quit PhD but if then don't get in MD program I would be very sad🙁 .

I will work in burger king if that happens.

I think you will be secluded in medicine too. At this point I would probably recomend that you talk to some premed advisors at your school.

 

[BluePhoenix]

No sir/mam. Typical Phd programs have no intentions of kicking anybody out. They often invest a lot in those students, and most of the students are involved in research, which helps the school. Now if a person flunks or something like that, then yes they will get kicked out.

Not true. There are a good number of science PhD programs that accept up to twice as many students as they plan to keep (such as Stanford). After requiring you to teach and/or TA for 1 to 2 years, they then give a qualifying exam where up to 50% of the students fail. This is common because they get cheap labor for two years and then have an easy excuse to get rid of you when there's no space for you to do research. Until you're trained in your area of research, you're essentially a financial burden. Once you're a 3rd or 4th year grad student that's fully trained in your field and researching on your own...THAT's when you're really valuable and they'd rather not lose you.

In terms of applying in the middle of the PhD...I'd think that you either need to be pretty sure of when you're going to finish or you need to have decided that you're not going to finish the degree. But, I think if you're not sure when you're going to finish, it may be difficult and you may want to make sure the schools you apply to will let you defer for a year if you need more time to finish up. (Generally, you'll know 6 months or so in advance if you're going to be done in time or not)

 

[MinnyGophers]

Not true. There are a good number of science PhD programs that accept up to twice as many students as they plan to keep (such as Stanford). After requiring you to teach and/or TA for 1 to 2 years, they then give a qualifying exam where up to 50% of the students fail. This is common because they get cheap labor for two years and then have an easy excuse to get rid of you when there's no space for you to do research. Until you're trained in your area of research, you're essentially a financial burden. Once you're a 3rd or 4th year grad student that's fully trained in your field and researching on your own...THAT's when you're really valuable and they'd rather not lose you.

In terms of applying in the middle of the PhD...I'd think that you either need to be pretty sure of when you're going to finish or you need to have decided that you're not going to finish the degree. But, I think if you're not sure when you're going to finish, it may be difficult and you may want to make sure the schools you apply to will let you defer for a year if you need more time to finish up. (Generally, you'll know 6 months or so in advance if you're going to be done in time or not)

For most PhD programs, they do not accept applicants unless they know for sure they have an advisor with space available. Most students apply for fellowships in their second/third year anyways so most PhD students aren't supported by their advisor/program but by outside sources.
I sincerely doubt that up to 50% people fail their "qualifying exam" ( i'm assuming you are talking about the prelims written/oral).
If anything, most programs give you multiple tries to pass, even giving you "passes with reservations" to allow you to stay in the program.
Obviously, it's not like medical school where it's damn near impossible to get kicked out, but it's not as easy to fail as you make it seem.
Not to say that there aren't a lot of other crap going on that PhD students might go through, but that's another story.

And yes, most programs invest a lot in their students, especially those who do not require you to TA for your first two years.
The advisor pays for the student's stipend and tuition, not the program itself (unless they TA). So it is NOT in their best interest to lose their students.

 

[Kajukenbo]

I obtained a PHd before going to med school. I was told by several med schools that one must be finished with it before entering; med schools realize that grad programs spend a lot of money on their students and do not want to be the cause of dept's wasting their money on students.

Now it is a different story if one quits a doctorate program and receives a master's degree and years later applies to med school. I know a few people that did this while trying to receive a doctorate in mathematics. They failed in the program and left with a masters degree. Later, they pursued medicine

 

[BluePhoenix]

For most PhD programs, they do not accept applicants unless they know for sure they have an advisor with space available. Most students apply for fellowships in their second/third year anyways so most PhD students aren't supported by their advisor/program but by outside sources.
I sincerely doubt that up to 50% people fail their "qualifying exam" ( i'm assuming you are talking about the prelims written/oral).
If anything, most programs give you multiple tries to pass, even giving you "passes with reservations" to allow you to stay in the program.
Obviously, it's not like medical school where it's damn near impossible to get kicked out, but it's not as easy to fail as you make it seem.
Not to say that there aren't a lot of other crap going on that PhD students might go through, but that's another story.

And yes, most programs invest a lot in their students, especially those who do not require you to TA for your first two years.
The advisor pays for the student's stipend and tuition, not the program itself (unless they TA). So it is NOT in their best interest to lose their students.

I'm sorry MinnyGophers, but you're wrong. I have a PhD in physics and went to a hardcore science undergrad. There are quite a few schools that eliminate up to 50% of their incoming grad students using the qualifying exams. It's extremely difficult to fail your classes or get kicked out during the research portion of your PhD. But most schools require a year of coursework as well as a teaching portion before you start your thesis research. Until you're with an advisor and actually working on your thesis, you're generally supported by either the university or the department and the support is generally in return for teaching. Thus, if you're only teaching the first two years, you're essentially an extremely cheap professor.

 

[Gut Shot]

I want to quit PhD but if then don't get in MD program I would be very sad🙁

Let's review your options.

1. Finish PhD and apply to med school.
2. Quit PhD outright, find some other line of work and apply to med school.
3. Quit PhD with terminal Master's and apply to med school.

The fundamental question is whether it's feasible to finish your PhD. How many years do you think you have left? Do you have the drive to finish?

 

[deleted103644]

Many schools will let you apply for a Ph.D. in the middle of medical school (i.e. to switch to MD/PhD), but as far as I know none will let you go the other way. You can always apply to medical school after getting your Ph.D., but then why did you spend so many years in a Ph.D. program when you could have received the same degree in as little as 3 years as part of an M.D./Ph.D.? Whatever you do, if you are already in a PhD program, finish it, or admissions committees will give you a hard time.

 

[MinnyGophers]

I'm sorry MinnyGophers, but you're wrong. I have a PhD in physics and went to a hardcore science undergrad. There are quite a few schools that eliminate up to 50% of their incoming grad students using the qualifying exams. It's extremely difficult to fail your classes or get kicked out during the research portion of your PhD. But most schools require a year of coursework as well as a teaching portion before you start your thesis research. Until you're with an advisor and actually working on your thesis, you're generally supported by either the university or the department and the support is generally in return for teaching. Thus, if you're only teaching the first two years, you're essentially an extremely cheap professor.

Different schools, different environments.
I'm sure that you are right for some programs (aka the ones that require you to TA your first two years), but the ones that I am apart of are very different. TAs are a dimes a dozen and can easily be replaced by much cheaper undergrads.
It's just not financially sound for a department to pay up to $30,000 a year for what is essentially a lab reports grader without expecting some other kind of return.

But then again, we went to different schools, so I am not invaliding your views.

 

[lina123321]

Let's review your options.

1. Finish PhD and apply to med school.
2. Quit PhD outright, find some other line of work and apply to med school.
3. Quit PhD with terminal Master's and apply to med school.

The fundamental question is whether it's feasible to finish your PhD. How many years do you think you have left? Do you have the drive to finish?

exactly...i heard its looked down upon if you quit a masters program or PhD program midway (or even less than midway) to apply/matriculate into med school...it would raise eyebrows about commitment issues, etc.

 

[Foghorn]

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=406430

 

[nyct]

I'm doing a similar thing and applying this year. I'm in my 5th year though, and I'm almost positive I'll be finished in time to matriculate.

As for quitting in the middle and applying, I had thought about doing that, but decided it really wasn't a good idea b/c most schools will see one thing: you quit. They'll be scared a similar thing will happen in med school.

If you are towards the very beginning of your PhD, you can consider switching to a MD/PhD. I know a couple of people who did that, but again, it's looked down on if you're too far along. I know, at least at my school, they are wary of the students just trying use the system to get their med school paid for.

Personally, I would stick it out a couple more years... the final years of your PhD are actually the easiest since it's really nothing but research and writing. Get as many papers published as you can, study hard for the MCAT, and then apply in a couple of years when you are almost done... at least that's what I did.

 

[jjmack]

I'm doing a similar thing and applying this year. I'm in my 5th year though, and I'm almost positive I'll be finished in time to matriculate.

As for quitting in the middle and applying, I had thought about doing that, but decided it really wasn't a good idea b/c most schools will see one thing: you quit. They'll be scared a similar thing will happen in med school.

If you are towards the very beginning of your PhD, you can consider switching to a MD/PhD. I know a couple of people who did that, but again, it's looked down on if you're too far along. I know, at least at my school, they are wary of the students just trying use the system to get their med school paid for.

Personally, I would stick it out a couple more years... the final years of your PhD are actually the easiest since it's really nothing but research and writing. Get as many papers published as you can, study hard for the MCAT, and then apply in a couple of years when you are almost done... at least that's what I did.

very few schools allow PhD-> MD/PhD. I can only think of a handful. Now MD->MD/PhD is usually not difficult.

 

[Critical Mass]

3. Quit PhD with terminal Master's and apply to med school.

I did this option.

I think that a few applications that I filled out said that you had to have a letter from a graduate program director stating that it was known that you were applying to med school.

We have at least one mudphud who started his PhD and then got accepted to med school. The MD/PhD program then took him in. I think that we only allow them before they've passed their qualifying exam.

I don't mean to start a flamewar here, but we have many folks who went to grad school because they couldn't get into med school. There are thus not going to be a lot of students who go from not getting into med school one year to be accepted as mudphuds the next. Most mudphud programs I have experience with aren't that re-applicant-friendly.

 

[QofQuimica]

My PhD years are the worst years of my life. I've never felt so secluded from the real world. I want to quit PhD but if then don't get in MD program I would be very sad🙁 .

I will work in burger king if that happens.

Roadroam,

I gather that you're very unhappy in your lab, and I'm sorry for you. Believe me that no one understands how lousy it is to have a s***ty PI better than I do; I dropped out of grad school once and almost dropped out a second time before I finally finished my PhD. And we all go through periods where our research isn't going well and we feel like quitting.

But I have to tell you that you are thinking in an utterly illogical way right now. You cannot apply to med school on a whim just because you don't like grad school any more. Do you realize that you've said nothing in any of your posts about actually wanting to be a physician! What I recommend you do is go talk to one of your committee members or someone else in the department who you trust. Alternatively, go see a career counselor at your school if you feel that you definitely don't want to be a scientist. But do not, to use the cliche, jump out of the grad school frying pan into the med school fire without a solid plan. You may feel miserable now, but spending the rest of your life working at Burger King is NOT a better solution. Going to med school can be a great move, if you do it for the right reasons. But it isn't an escape hatch for people who are grasping for something else to do when they decide grad school isn't for them.

to you. 🙂

 

[Gut Shot]

exactly...i heard its looked down upon if you quit a masters program or PhD program midway (or even less than midway) to apply/matriculate into med school...it would raise eyebrows about commitment issues, etc.

Perhaps, but that's life. People try things, they frequently don't work out, so a change in course is necessary. PhD's aren't for the weak, so I feel no shame for the folks who decided it wasn't for them. Being able to make such a decision could actually be a positive (edit: or at least fairly neutral). If I were on an adcom, the two grad students I'd be most weary of are 1) the guy who's been languishing for 7+ years, and worse, 2) the person who has started and quit multiple programs. Red red red flag flag flag.