Can you be a doctor without any vaccines?

[MedQuestionThrowAway]

Wasn't sure if this belongs here so sorry if this is the wrong place.

A premed I am mentoring told me they have no vaccines due to religious beliefs. I have been trying to google the rules of vaccination as a doctor, since I would imagine they would be required (regardless of religion), but can only find info about COVID vaccine requirements. While you can probably get into school without vaccines I would imagine it would be difficult to do rotations and even get a residency spot without any vaccines? But maybe I am mistaken.

As a disclaimer, I am personally fully vaccinated and an advocate for vaccines. This post is not at any way encouraging people to be unvaccinated nor am I trying to start a debate about vaccines. I just want to learn if religious exemption applies to doctors, since I would imagine we have to be vaccinated to protect our patients? Just looking to see if it is even realistic for my mentee to apply to medical school.

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[MateoGM416]

At best they would have to apply for a religious exemption at every hospital they work at. The Catholic hospital I used to work out was somewhat lenient when it came to applying for vaccine exemptions due to religious beliefs, but in the context of volunteering, rotations, and applying for residency, it seems to me just logistically impossible to make it all the way through the 7+ years of training without a hard-stop from a hospital admin or school faculty along the way. It seems like a bad decision to take the risk that every hospital and preceptor you work under would be so lenient.

 

[GoSpursGo]

It probably depends on the state, the medical school, and the specific rotation sites for their medical school. For example, my institution in a notoriously vaccine-skeptical state, COVID vaccination is "recommended but not required," but they mention that you could then fail onboarding for your clinical rotation sites (for example, at the VA Hospital) and be unable to complete your clinical rotations. Wash/rinse/repeat for residency/fellowship/credentialing as an attending.

Additionally, most "religious exemptions" are not actually based in religious teachings. Some schools will require some documentation of the "sincerely held religious belief" which can take the form of an attestation from a leader of their church, or something else.

In summary, it definitely makes things harder, and in some cases will make it impossible.

 

[Goro]

Wasn't sure if this belongs here so sorry if this is the wrong place.

A premed I am mentoring told me they have no vaccines due to religious beliefs. I have been trying to google the rules of vaccination as a doctor, since I would imagine they would be required (regardless of religion), but can only find info about COVID vaccine requirements. While you can probably get into school without vaccines I would imagine it would be difficult to do rotations and even get a residency spot without any vaccines? But maybe I am mistaken.

As a disclaimer, I am personally fully vaccinated and an advocate for vaccines. This post is not at any way encouraging people to be unvaccinated nor am I trying to start a debate about vaccines. I just want to learn if religious exemption applies to doctors, since I would imagine we have to be vaccinated to protect our patients? Just looking to see if it is even realistic for my mentee to apply to medical school.

If my Adcom found out about this, said applicant would be rejected. All of our core hospitals require vaccination, or student can't set foot in them.

Is the pre-med against COVID-19 vaccines, or all vaccines?

 

[thumbz]

Clinical rotations would be an absolute nightmare. They would need to apply for an exemption at every site, which would then need to be granted by HR or whatever department does it. Given the glacial pace of most med staff offices, good luck.

If you're in a blue(r) state, it's probably a no-go. We've seen examples of nurses and docs getting fired (or invited to leave) over not getting the COVID vaccine. No way a hospital is going to have a policy where staff can get fired but then just let a med student waltz on in.

Unfortunately their particular religious beliefs may not be compatible with a career in healthcare.

 

[MedQuestionThrowAway]

If my Adcom found out about this, said applicant would be rejected. All of our core hospitals require vaccination, or student can't set foot in them.

Is the pre-med against COVID-19 vaccines, or all vaccines?

They have no vaccines at all and do not plan on getting any. Supposedly they are okay with vaccinating their future patients but I did not press further to see if they would be actively encouraging vaccination or just passively allowing it.

I agree with all the comments which foresee it being a nightmare to get exemptions granted at every single rotation site (and the future hospitals they wish to work at). I've tried sharing these concern that even if they get into medical school, I foresee it being difficult to do the required rotations with no vaccines. They do not believe me because they have apparently been told that it will only be a slight barrier because their right to not be vaccinated is protected by religious beliefs federally (their words not mine).

At this point it is their potential loss to attempt medical school without having any vaccines and I did my duty trying to warn them.

 

[gyngyn]

We consider the willingness and capacity to be vaccinated an element of Technical Standards.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Check the naturopathy medical schools. It would be very tough with clinical rotations.

 

[IAskQuestionsOnly]

I'd tell that premed to stay away from medicine and their delusions have no place in medicine.
Seriously, why put up with it?

If they get through med school and start promoting their delusions, it makes the whole field look bad.
So much unsuppressed stupidity nowadays.


*This post was edited by admins, removing the statement about religion

 

[theoceanman]

Well, I don't mean to offend any religions out there that are against vaccinations, etc., but it's a bit of a hypocritical stance to be fine administering the very same vaccines that you are against into someone else's body. I think the pre-med student should have a more realistic outlook on medical schools and their respective processes, which include vaccinations and immunization forms.

I currently am submitting my immunization forms and some of these immunizations don't have titer tests or skin tests that you can do in-place of them: well what does this mean? It means that you need to get the vaccination/immunization or risk having your acceptance rescinded. It's a cruel reality check for religious people in this regard, especially your friend, but they should find a solution to overcome the vaccination and immunization process, especially since it's a huge health risk anyways not to have them to your fellow future medical students, faculty, staff, co-residents and attendings, and patients. I would want my doctor to be vaccinated and immunized, so who else wouldn't. If they still insist on having no vaccinations or immunizations that involve these procedures, then they should give up medicine as a whole, perhaps the entire healthcare field as a whole, and enter a whole different career path.

 

[Fluidity of Movement]

Well, I don't mean to offend any religions out there that are against vaccinations, etc., but it's a bit of a hypocritical stance to be fine administering the very same vaccines that you are against into someone else's body.

I see where you are coming from, but it's common for folk to serve food / drinks etc (just one example) that they personally are not allowed to consume, but they have no issue with preparing it or serving it to others. It really comes down to the individual or group and whatever their specific doctrine is.

Still, it sounds like this is a dealbreaker for the applicant unless they are preparing to go to legal war.

 

[MedQuestionThrowAway]

Well, I don't mean to offend any religions out there that are against vaccinations, etc., but it's a bit of a hypocritical stance to be fine administering the very same vaccines that you are against into someone else's body. I think the pre-med student should have a more realistic outlook on medical schools and their respective processes, which include vaccinations and immunization forms.

I currently am submitting my immunization forms and some of these immunizations don't have titer tests or skin tests that you can do in-place of them: well what does this mean? It means that you need to get the vaccination/immunization or risk having your acceptance rescinded. It's a cruel reality check for religious people in this regard, especially your friend, but they should find a solution to overcome the vaccination and immunization process, especially since it's a huge health risk anyways not to have them to your fellow future medical students, faculty, staff, co-residents and attendings, and patients. I would want my doctor to be vaccinated and immunized, so who else wouldn't. If they still insist on having no vaccinations or immunizations that involve these procedures, then they should give up medicine as a whole, perhaps the entire healthcare field as a whole, and enter a whole different career path.

This premed has a very specific idea about the specialty of medicine they want to go into and have no desire to do anything other than that field (which may allow them to avoid any discussion of vaccines). Sorry to be so vague but I want to try to keep it as unidentifiable as possible in case they stumble upon this post. Feel free to message me though if you want to know/hear some of my other complaints.

I have tried to share some of these comments with the premed but they still do not believe me. Given their reasons for pursuing medicine, I think that there is nothing I can do to convince them that this may not be the right path.

I just want to clarify that they are definitely not my friend haha. They are a student I was randomly assigned to mentor through a premed program at my school. Working on slowly ending the mentorship though, especially since there are some other problematic things and they have chosen to ignore my advice/not believe me on this and a different topic.

Thank you everyone for the helpful replies - I really appreciate it!

 

[DO2015CA]

This premed has a very specific idea about the specialty of medicine they want to go into and have no desire to do anything other than that field (which may allow them to avoid any discussion of vaccines). Sorry to be so vague but I want to try to keep it as unidentifiable as possible in case they stumble upon this post. Feel free to message me though if you want to know/hear some of my other complaints.

I have tried to share some of these comments with the premed but they still do not believe me. Given their reasons for pursuing medicine, I think that there is nothing I can do to convince them that this may not be the right path.

I just want to clarify that they are definitely not my friend haha. They are a student I was randomly assigned to mentor through a premed program at my school. Working on slowly ending the mentorship though, especially since there are some other problematic things and they have chosen to ignore my advice/not believe me on this and a different topic.

Thank you everyone for the helpful replies - I really appreciate it!

I’m curious as to what specialty vaccines will be a non-issue. Maybe OMM. Id add functional medicine in but many I’ve seen go through FM residency first which will be an issue

 

[W1zardDoctor]

This premed has a very specific idea about the specialty of medicine they want to go into and have no desire to do anything other than that field (which may allow them to avoid any discussion of vaccines). Sorry to be so vague but I want to try to keep it as unidentifiable as possible in case they stumble upon this post. Feel free to message me though if you want to know/hear some of my other complaints.

I have tried to share some of these comments with the premed but they still do not believe me. Given their reasons for pursuing medicine, I think that there is nothing I can do to convince them that this may not be the right path.

I just want to clarify that they are definitely not my friend haha. They are a student I was randomly assigned to mentor through a premed program at my school. Working on slowly ending the mentorship though, especially since there are some other problematic things and they have chosen to ignore my advice/not believe me on this and a different topic.

Thank you everyone for the helpful replies - I really appreciate it!

Have they actually tried calling any medical school to ask them directly? That could shut down their unrealistic expectations...

 

[MedQuestionThrowAway]

Have they actually tried calling any medical school to ask them directly? That could shut down their unrealistic expectations...

They called my school and were supposedly told they can attend but clinical rotations might be difficult and that there are other unvaccinated students. My thought is the premed just said they are unvaccinated but did not specify that they have no vaccines and my school assumed they were only referring to the covid vaccine (since when they first told me I assumed they were only talking about not having their covid vaccines and my school is in a "pro-vaccine" state so I highly doubt we have students with no vaccines). I told them to call all the schools they want to apply to but I don't think they did.

 

[MateoGM416]

I’m curious as to what specialty vaccines will be a non-issue. Maybe OMM. Id add functional medicine in but many I’ve seen go through FM residency first which will be an issue

If he was alive today I bet AT Still would have been an antivaxxer

 

[DO2015CA]

If he was alive today I bet AT Still would have been an antivaxxer

1000%

 

[Goro]

This premed has a very specific idea about the specialty of medicine they want to go into and have no desire to do anything other than that field (which may allow them to avoid any discussion of vaccines). Sorry to be so vague but I want to try to keep it as unidentifiable as possible in case they stumble upon this post. Feel free to message me though if you want to know/hear some of my other complaints.

I have tried to share some of these comments with the premed but they still do not believe me. Given their reasons for pursuing medicine, I think that there is nothing I can do to convince them that this may not be the right path.

I think at this point you're simply bashing your head against a wall. To your mentee, antivax is a belief system, and it's hard to reason with people who are on a Mission from God.

Your mentee is clearly ignorant of what medical education entails, and that no matter what specialty he wants to go into, he still has to do rotations and residencies in hospitals, which will require him to be vaccinated. They don't want him spreading meales or chickenpox to immunocompromised patients, after all. He's in for a hard awakening.

They called my school and were supposedly told they can attend but clinical rotations might be difficult and that there are other unvaccinated students.

I strongly suspect that your mentee heard what he wanted to hear.

 

[IAskQuestionsOnly]

This premed has a very specific idea about the specialty of medicine they want to go into and have no desire to do anything other than that field (which may allow them to avoid any discussion of vaccines). Sorry to be so vague but I want to try to keep it as unidentifiable as possible in case they stumble upon this post. Feel free to message me though if you want to know/hear some of my other complaints.

I have tried to share some of these comments with the premed but they still do not believe me. Given their reasons for pursuing medicine, I think that there is nothing I can do to convince them that this may not be the right path.

I just want to clarify that they are definitely not my friend haha. They are a student I was randomly assigned to mentor through a premed program at my school. Working on slowly ending the mentorship though, especially since there are some other problematic things and they have chosen to ignore my advice/not believe me on this and a different topic.

Thank you everyone for the helpful replies - I really appreciate it!

Specialty doesn't matter. He/she will be a MD or DO and lameman people don't know much about specialties or any nuance about "oh, this doctor (MD/DO) is only able to speak on that specialty. If you end up with an anti-vax MD vs a vax-MD, normal people will think there's controversy amongst doctors and therefore "it's still up for debate".

All anti-vaxers should not be allowed in medicine PERIOD. Anyone currently in medicine should be suppressed and scorned. This isn't the 1800's.

 

[theoceanman]

This premed has a very specific idea about the specialty of medicine they want to go into and have no desire to do anything other than that field (which may allow them to avoid any discussion of vaccines). Sorry to be so vague but I want to try to keep it as unidentifiable as possible in case they stumble upon this post. Feel free to message me though if you want to know/hear some of my other complaints.

I have tried to share some of these comments with the premed but they still do not believe me. Given their reasons for pursuing medicine, I think that there is nothing I can do to convince them that this may not be the right path.

I just want to clarify that they are definitely not my friend haha. They are a student I was randomly assigned to mentor through a premed program at my school. Working on slowly ending the mentorship though, especially since there are some other problematic things and they have chosen to ignore my advice/not believe me on this and a different topic.

Thank you everyone for the helpful replies - I really appreciate it!

Yeah I hate to be that guy, but religious or not, like you have stated, there’s nothing we can do to convince them that this is not the right path.

They’re a lost cause, and I don’t know why they’re bringing up specialties when they don’t even stand a chance at schools, given a successful cycle, since they can expect their acceptance to be rescinded once they argue with admissions that they don’t want to be vaccinated. Hopefully that spot will be given to another applicant that won’t be a health liability.

 

[annoyedpsychiatrist]

When people do vaccine exemptions for religious reasons im not sure I understand that because dont most major religions encourage or at least support vaccinations? Even the stricter ones seem to support them. Really it seems more like personalized stigma then necessarily religion in most cases.

 

[Osminog]

If he was alive today I bet AT Still would have been an antivaxxer

AT Still was a vehement anti-vaxxer during his own time. He decried the smallpox vaccine and encouraged the public to instead treat smallpox by inhaling the defensive secretions of the blister beetle.

If he were alive today, perhaps he’d be distributing handfuls of beetles at pride parades and gay bars as prophylaxis for monkeypox.

 

[MateoGM416]

AT Still was a vehement anti-vaxxer during his own time. He decried the smallpox vaccine and encouraged the public to instead treat smallpox by inhaling the defensive secretions of the blister beetle.

If he were alive today, perhaps he’d be distributing handfuls of beetles at pride parades and gay bars as prophylaxis for monkeypox.

My God, I thought you were joking. For a dude that hates allopathic medicine, he sure seems like he did a ton of drugs

The philosophy and mechanical principles of osteopathy : Still, A. T. (Andrew Taylor), 1828-1917 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

319 p. ; 20 cm

archive.org

When all the good has been said in favor of vaccination, the world only learns that for years it has been a hopeless fail- ure and so confirmed. If you go into towns and cities where the most rigid systems to compel people to become vaccinated exist, you will find just as much smallpox or more than where than has been no vaccination at all. To-day, with all the police force and cow-rot that has been forced into men, women, and children, there is no less smallpox.

His book reads like a 19th century facebook post

 

[PB2464]

Delete. Not worth it.