Can you be fired for political activism outside of work?

[Angry Birds]

Question says it all.

Let's say you never talk politics at work, but decide to do some podcasting and that sort of thing... Then, a bunch of haters call your work to try to get you fired.

How vulnerable are we to this in emergency medicine?

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[southerndoc]

Depends. If you're an employee, it's harder to get rid of you. An independent contractor can be terminated for anything basically.

People have been fired (not docs, but people in general) for posting things on Facebook while away from work. If your hospital or group thinks your reputation will hurt theirs, then you're pretty much gone and there's not much you can do about it.

 

[The White Coat Investor]

I didn't tell my partners about The White Coat Investor until I made partner. Take from that what you will. Now they use it as a recruiting tool!

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

I think you need to be pretty careful if you are on the extreme side of any political spectrum. There is a Vandy surgical resident who appears to be really stirring things up. He seems to be a true SJW. This article is quite one sided but I think you can get the gist.

Asian American Doctor Put on Probation After Revealing He Gets Bullied at Work

 

[hamstergang]

I think you need to be pretty careful if you are on the extreme side of any political spectrum. There is a Vandy surgical resident who appears to be really stirring things up. He seems to be a true SJW. This article is quite one sided but I think you can get the gist.

Asian American Doctor Put on Probation After Revealing He Gets Bullied at Work

Not so clear this had anything to do with politics: Resident put on leave for protesting white supremacy. (also assaulted at work)

 

[Perrotfish]

Question says it all.

Let's say you never talk politics at work, but decide to do some podcasting and that sort of thing... Then, a bunch of haters call your work to try to get you fired.

How vulnerable are we to this in emergency medicine?

The laws about this are very state specific. Some stats protect all legal activity outside of work, many protect political activity but not the forms of free expression, and in quite a few states you can be fired for any speech at all if it annoys your employer.

Interestingly more states prevent your employer from firing you for smoking than prevent them for firing you for exercising your right to free speech.

This is a good Huffington Post article on the subject.

 

[PlutoBoy]

Question says it all.

Let's say you never talk politics at work, but decide to do some podcasting and that sort of thing... Then, a bunch of haters call your work to try to get you fired.

How vulnerable are we to this in emergency medicine?

Very. Doctors have been fired for it. Make sure you don't identify yourself as an employee of whatever health system you work for and state that your opinions represent your own.

Denver Health doctor resigns amid controversy over racist Facebook post – The Denver Post

 

[GeneralVeers]

I know a lot of doctors or nurses who put their place of employment in their profile on Facebook. I think this is incredibly stupid. I have nothing on my facebook/instagram that identifies myself as a doctor, or even that I'm in the healthcare industry.

Even with that amount of anonymity, my medical director forced me to take down a post when a nurse complained that she thought the joke was in poor taste. Nothing in the post mentioned the hospital, location, or anything else identifiable to the employer. It's incredibly frightening that we've come to this level of censorship.

 

[goodoldalky]

Yes.

Particularly in an at-will employment state, you can be fired for basically anything.

 

[Renaissance Man]

Very. Doctors have been fired for it. Make sure you don't identify yourself as an employee of whatever health system you work for and state that your opinions represent your own.

Denver Health doctor resigns amid controversy over racist Facebook post – The Denver Post

I think calling Michelle Obama, "monkey face," is really just racism rather than any kind of political belief.

 

[PlutoBoy]

I think calling Michelle Obama, "monkey face," is really just racism rather than any kind of political belief.

Yeah but you get the point.

 

[EctopicFetus]

If you want to post political stuff I think you would be wise to create a different profile that has no nurses/docs etc as friends.

I agree its crazy but reality is patients can find us (sometimes) and apparently as folks that dont own our own business (save the FSED) we are at the whim of the hospital / CMG. As a guy who works at an SDG I know my group is fine.. the hospital though may rain monkey poop on me and thats not something I want. I am very careful when I post on FB as it has my name and frankly I dont want any heat.

If someone wants to be a racist so be it. I think pushing all that stuff underground is bad.

 

[Angry Birds]

I know a lot of doctors or nurses who put their place of employment in their profile on Facebook. I think this is incredibly stupid. I have nothing on my facebook/instagram that identifies myself as a doctor, or even that I'm in the healthcare industry.

Even with that amount of anonymity, my medical director forced me to take down a post when a nurse complained that she thought the joke was in poor taste. Nothing in the post mentioned the hospital, location, or anything else identifiable to the employer. It's incredibly frightening that we've come to this level of censorship.

You and I are on opposite ends of the political spectrum, but I share your concern about censorship. I don't even think people should necessarily be fired over racist comments, so long as it isn't proven that they have discriminated against patients (or whatever line of work they do). I think the need to preserve (true) freedom of speech trumps other concerns.

 

[Angry Birds]

I think calling Michelle Obama, "monkey face," is really just racism rather than any kind of political belief.

I find such a comment to be horrendous, but the problem arises that it is very difficult to draw a line. And also, this racism is rooted in political belief, and vice/versa. I mean, at this point in time, diehard supporters of Trump by definition have to have or tolerate some level of racism. What I mean to say is that there is no good way of deciding what speech should be protected or not, which is why it all should be.

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

You and I are on opposite ends of the political spectrum, but I share your concern about censorship. I don't even think people should necessarily be fired over racist comments, so long as it isn't proven that they have discriminated against patients (or whatever line of work they do). I think the need to preserve (true) freedom of speech trumps other concerns.

Lol that's not what freedom is. Freedom of speech means that the government can't arrest you for what you say. Sorry but if you get paid that means you have certain norms that you have to abide by. You are free do do as you will but to suggest that an employer has to keep employing someone because of "freedom" is ludicrous.

Being employed isn't in the constitution.

 

[d2305]

I find such a comment to be horrendous, but the problem arises that it is very difficult to draw a line. And also, this racism is rooted in political belief, and vice/versa. I mean, at this point in time, diehard supporters of Trump by definition have to have or tolerate some level of racism. What I mean to say is that there is no good way of deciding what speech should be protected or not, which is why it all should be.

Dihard Obama supporters by definition have to have or tolerate some level of communism.

 

[Angry Birds]

Dihard Obama supporters by definition have to have or tolerate some level of communism.

Rest assured, I'm far lefter than Obama or the Democratic Party.

Plus, I think the sting from your insult is losing its effectiveness, as people realize that socialism (not communism as you say) isn't as evil as Americans were brainwashed to think during the Cold War. There should be a healthy balance between capitalism and socialism, as there exists in many of the happiest northern European countries.

Lol that's not what freedom is. Freedom of speech means that the government can't arrest you for what you say. Sorry but if you get paid that means you have certain norms that you have to abide by. You are free do do as you will but to suggest that an employer has to keep employing someone because of "freedom" is ludicrous.

Being employed isn't in the constitution.

I like how you started with the "lol" in order to give off that obnoxious vibe.

Whereas I understand that the freedom of enshrined in the First Amendment is limited to the government, there is also a wider concept and principle of freedom of speech. That is, we need to foster societies where true freedom of speech exists in the practical sense. As Noam Chomsky put it, in countries like the United States where freedom of speech exists in the law, there exist other "methods employed to restrain freedom of thought... The less the state is able to employ violence in the defense of the interest of the elite groups that effectively dominate it, the more it becomes necessary to devise techniques of ‘manufacture of consent’..."

In any case, you are free to disagree and take a different view. But, it's a bit much to say that it's "ludicrous" to say that people should have the right not to have their livelihood taken from them due to voicing their unpopular beliefs. Such a system encourages the manufacturing of consent in a technically free society.

In any case, I stand by what I said, and I am consistent in my views. There was a student who was recently forced to leave her university for going on a racist rant on social media... Despite the fact that she is on the opposite end of the political spectrum as I, I don't think it's right that she was booted out of the university. This constrains true freedom of speech in a very practical, real sense.

 

[Angry Birds]

I know a lot of doctors or nurses who put their place of employment in their profile on Facebook. I think this is incredibly stupid. I have nothing on my facebook/instagram that identifies myself as a doctor, or even that I'm in the healthcare industry.

Even with that amount of anonymity, my medical director forced me to take down a post when a nurse complained that she thought the joke was in poor taste. Nothing in the post mentioned the hospital, location, or anything else identifiable to the employer. It's incredibly frightening that we've come to this level of censorship.

See, I think this effectively stifles your freedom of speech, and prevents the true exchange of ideas. I'd rather you get to keep your poor taste joke up, and I get to respond to it...

 

[Apollyon]

Rest assured, I'm far lefter than Obama or the Democratic Party.

Plus, I think the sting from your insult is losing its effectiveness, as people realize that socialism (not communism as you say) isn't as evil as Americans were brainwashed to think during the Cold War. There should be a healthy balance between capitalism and socialism, as there exists in many of the happiest northern European countries.



I like how you started with the "lol" in order to give off that obnoxious vibe.

Whereas I understand that the freedom of enshrined in the First Amendment is limited to the government, there is also a wider concept and principle of freedom of speech. That is, we need to foster societies where true freedom of speech exists in the practical sense. As Noam Chomsky put it, in countries like the United States where freedom of speech exists in the law, there must exist other "methods employed to restrain freedom of thought... The less the state is able to employ violence in the defense of the interest of the elite groups that effectively dominate it, the more it becomes necessary to devise techniques of ‘manufacture of consent’..."

In any case, you are free to disagree and take a different view. But, it's a bit much to say that it's "ludicrous" to say that people should have the right not to have their livelihood taken from them due to voicing their unpopular beliefs. Such a system encourages the manufacturing of consent in a technically free society.

In any case, I stand by what I said, and I am consistent in my views. There was a student who was recently forced to leave her university for going on a racist rant on social media... Despite the fact that she is on the opposite end of the political spectrum as me, I don't think it's right that she was booted out of the university. This constrains true freedom of speech in a practical sense.

You must be loads of fun at parties (non communist!).

 

[WilcoWorld]

On one hand, your employer should not be able to fire you for your beliefs. Even if they are false and disgusting beliefs.

On the other hand, your employer should be able you to fire you for your actions if they are not commensurate with the mission of the organization.

Lol that's not what freedom is. Freedom of speech means that the government can't arrest you for what you say. Sorry but if you get paid that means you have certain norms that you have to abide by. You are free do do as you will but to suggest that an employer has to keep employing someone because of "freedom" is ludicrous.

Being employed isn't in the constitution.

Good distinction. A person should be able to express opinions without getting arrested (so long as it's not akin to yelling "FIRE!" in a crowded theater), but freedom from persecution =/= employment.

If I walked into the waiting room at my hospital and started dropping F-bombs, I wouldn't expect to remain employed.
If I worked as David Duke's secretary, and I answered every phonecall with "Good day, black lives matter" he would have grounds to fire me.
If your hospital thinks that your social media activity reflects negatively on their reputation, it's within their rights to fire you.

Now, privately held beliefs that are not expressed at work or in a way that can be connected to your employer are a different matter.

 

[WilcoWorld]

Dihard Obama supporters by definition have to have or tolerate some level of communism.

I wonder if you meant socialism.

Fact is, almost all US Citizens support some degree of socialism (they just don't recognize it as such).

 

[BoardingDoc]

But, it's a bit much to say that it's "ludicrous" to say that people should have the right not to have their livelihood taken from them due to voicing their unpopular beliefs.

I don't disagree with this sentiment in general, however, there is a difference between voicing an unpopular belief and hate speech. Even if we're not discussing hate speech, but you express a contentious political opinion which can reasonably be construed as being supported by your employer... your employer absolutely has grounds for terminating your employment.

 

[WilcoWorld]

You must be loads of fun at parties (non communist!).

I see what you did there...

 

[GeneralVeers]

The Left these days is far worse than the Right on issues of freedom of speech. On most college campuses (publicly funded institutions), any speech that doesn't conform with a narrow world-view of Leftist activists, is shouted down, banned or punished.

As a Libertarian I support all free speech, no matter how divisive, hateful, or incendiary from both sides of the political spectrum. Everyone should be free to express their stupid ideas, and beliefs.

 

[d2305]

I wonder if you meant socialism.

Fact is, almost all US Citizens support some degree of socialism (they just don't recognize it as such).

The Soviet Union was socialist (Soyuz Sovetskikh Sotsialisticheskikh Respublik). From what I understand, the difference is that communism is the result of a bloody revolution.

 

[gutonc]

The Soviet Union was socialist (Soyuz Sovetskikh Sotsialisticheskikh Respublik). From what I understand, the difference is that communism is the result of a bloody revolution.

And North Korea is "The People's Democratic Republic of Korea". What's your point?

 

[bravotwozero]

People in this country have gotten their skulls cracked open for protesting peacefully against the Dakota access pipeline.

In Iowa, a pastor was arrested for protesting against Monsanto’s use of harmful pesticides. During his trial, the state of Iowa argued that his first amendment rights should NOT be taken into consideration...

If this is what our GOVERNMENT is doing to our constitutionally protected rights, then anything is possible....


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[deleted109597]

People in this country have gotten their skulls cracked open for protesting peacefully against the Dakota access pipeline.

Which presidency was that under again?

In Iowa, a pastor was arrested for protesting against Monsanto’s use of harmful pesticides. During his trial, the state of Iowa argued that his first amendment rights should NOT be taken into consideration...

Sort of. He was arrested for trespassing. And eventually found not guilty. But Monsanto (or their reps) also have a right to free speech.
Why Monsanto Couldn't Jail Us | HuffPost

If this is what our GOVERNMENT is doing to our constitutionally protected rights, then anything is possible...Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Neither party is innocent in this sadly. Nowhere to run now.

 

[GeneralVeers]

Speech is okay. Trespassing, obstructing, and damaging commerce are not. You can yell at the top of your lungs about whatever crazy thing you want, but it is not allowable to physically block or impede someone else, or to protest on private property.

 

[bravotwozero]

Which presidency was that under again?

I didn’t say it was under the current presidency now did I? For the most part, gop and dems are the same to me when it comes to government suppression of first amendment rights.

And just because you’re arrested for trespassing doesn’t mean you actually did. That pastor was let go without charges, so clearly that’s not what he was doing.

There have been numerous instances, like journalists covering protests in St. Louis, that we’re arrested and detained by police and then released without any charges. This is becoming commonplace in our government, regardless of political stripe.



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[d2305]

Speech is okay. Trespassing, obstructing, and damaging commerce are not. You can yell at the top of your lungs about whatever crazy thing you want, but it is not allowable to physically block or impede someone else, or to protest on private property.

The hard left doesn't believe in private property. Everything belongs to the state, and the "people" are slaves.

And North Korea is "The People's Democratic Republic of Korea". What's your point?

Socialism is the same as Communism, only better English. George Bernard Shaw

 

[Angry Birds]

Most Americans, regardless of party, support "freedom of speech" only when it comes to speech they find desirable. According to the Cato Institute:

51% of strong liberals say it’s “morally acceptable” to punch Nazis.
53% of Republicans favor stripping U.S. citizenship from people who burn the American flag.
51% of Democrats support a law that requires Americans use transgender people’s preferred gender pronouns.
47% of Republicans favor bans on building new mosques.
58% of Democrats say employers should punish employees for offensive Facebook posts.
65% of Republicans say NFL players should be fired if they refuse to stand for the national anthem.​

With regard to campus speech, this Washington Post article concludes:

More broadly, two key takeaways are as follows: First, in my view it belies logic to assert, as some do, that all is well with respect to freedom of expression on campus, and that any suggestion to the contrary is an attempt to manufacture a concern where none exists. In light of the data above and the growing list of examples in which on-campus audiences were denied the opportunity to hear from invited speakers, it is certainly reasonable to debate the extent of the problem, but I don’t believe it is reasonable to deny the existence of the problem.

Second, this is an issue that spans the political spectrum. The surveys discussed above found significant levels of intolerance to on-campus speech among Democrats, Republicans, and Independents. This underscores the fact that we all have an interest, regardless of our personal political views, in an improved climate for free expression at U.S. colleges and universities.​

However, liberals outnumber conservatives at elite universities, so it makes sense that conservatives would be harder hit by this intolerance.

 

[Angry Birds]

The hard left doesn't believe in private property. Everything belongs to the state, and the "people" are slaves.

Who is the "hard left" that believes "everything belongs to the state" and "'people' are slaves"?

Socialism is the same as Communism, only better English. George Bernard Shaw

It's a pithy quote, but it's just not true that they are synonymous. Also, Shaw was a supporter of eugenics, Mussolini and Stalin, if that matters (not sure it does).

 

[GeneralVeers]

Who is the "hard left" that believes "everything belongs to the state" and "'people' are slaves"?

All of those who believe a tax cut for the wealthy is "stealing from the the middle class and poor". If you think that letting people keep more of their own money, which they EARNED is stealing, then by extension all of their wealth must belong to the government. By definition you can't STEAL from oneself.

 

[Angry Birds]

All of those who believe a tax cut for the wealthy is "stealing from the the middle class and poor". If you think that letting people keep more of their own money, which they EARNED is stealing, then by extension all of their wealth must belong to the government. By definition you can't STEAL from oneself.

Hmmm that’s interesting. I’ve never really seen liberals use the word “stealing” in conjunction with taxes. Such hyperbolic language is usually used by conservatives who claim that taxes are STEALING.

 

[GeneralVeers]

Hmmm that’s interesting. I’ve never really seen liberals use the word “stealing” in conjunction with taxes. Such hyperbolic language is usually used by conservatives who claim that taxes are STEALING.

Nancy Pelosi: Tax Bill 'Brazen Theft' on American Middle Class

 

[GeneralVeers]

Nancy Pelosi: Tax Bill 'Brazen Theft' on American Middle Class

Also by definition taxes are stealing. They are the involuntary seizure of private property through force or threat of violence.

 

[Angry Birds]

Nancy Pelosi: Tax Bill 'Brazen Theft' on American Middle Class

Kudos. Check mate.

 

[GeneralVeers]

Kudos. Check mate.

I respect you for acknowledging the point. There are certainly many criticisms one can have about the tax bill....me included. I think that couching it in terms of "theft" is probably a losing argument for the Dems.

 

[d2305]

"There is no difference between communism and socialism, except in the means of achieving the same ultimate end: communism proposes to enslave men by force, socialism by vote. It is merely the difference between murder and suicide." Ayn Rand

 

[EctopicFetus]

I am one who is more than happy to hold onto my own money. I am a fiscal conservative and consider myself a reasonable person. For me in lieu of the tax cut I would have preferred a permanent spending cut. We cant keep spending liken drunk college kids burning up our parents credit cards.

That being said I believe the republicans (I am not one) will be bringing this up soon but doubt anything worthwhile will come of it besides some newspaper quotes.

Honestly, if we cut govt spending by 10% (except social security since you are basically giving people their money back in theory) and perhaps a smaller cut to medicare/medicaid (which i know make up much of our spending) over 10 years would anyone notice? I wouldnt fire people but I would cut them by attrition. For medicare I would allow govt to negotiate fair drugs prices (benchmark to something).

I would argue that we could cut our spending by 400B per year and no one would notice or care except those who are getting fat off our tax money. At some point dont you have to start making those credit card payments (US Debt)?

 

[Birdstrike]

Question says it all.

Let's say you never talk politics at work, but decide to do some podcasting and that sort of thing... Then, a bunch of haters call your work to try to get you fired.

How vulnerable are we to this in emergency medicine?

This is not to be construed as legal advice and I am not a lawyer.

However, the short answer is: Yes.

Although we have the right to our political views and a constitutional right to express those views, and although some states offer additional protections, generally employers have the right to fire someone if those views are considered to reflect badly on the employer.

In reality, you're not likely to get fired for simply having a different political party than your boss, or due to some mainstream yet different viewpoint. But if the political view point is radical or offensive enough to your employer, then yes, absolutely you could be fired for that.

You have a right to the views and the 1st amendment gives you the right to express those views, but that right to free speech does not require your employer to keep you employed no matter how radical or offensive those political beliefs are.

That being said, if you're planning to go public with some blog, book or other public display of politics and you're worried about your job, please contact an employment attorney in your state.

 

[Birdstrike]

Rest assured, I'm far lefter than Obama or the Democratic Party.

Plus, I think the sting from your insult is losing its effectiveness, as people realize that socialism (not communism as you say) isn't as evil as Americans were brainwashed to think during the Cold War.

I prefer to continue to take my chances in the high risk/reward system of Capitalism, in which my family and I have done very well. I know the Democrats really, really, really want to make socialism happen in America. And maybe I'm just 'brainwashed,' but personally I'd prefer to avoid a system where the happy ending is us all fighting over who gets to eat the pets & zoo animals to survive.

"Venezuela food shortages cause some to hunt dogs, cats, pigeons" Venezuela food shortages cause some to hunt dogs, cats, pigeons

"In Venezuela, they're eating zoo animals for food. That is what's happening in the socialist paradise that was once the pride of the political left." Eating the zoo creatures in Venezuela

 

[Siggy]

People in this country have gotten their skulls cracked open for protesting peacefully against the Dakota access pipeline.

"Around 2:30 p.m. Saturday afternoon, a group of protestors launched a march from their camp located on U.S. Army Corps of Engineers land to where construction was taking place on the Dakota Access Pipeline, on private property on the west side of Highway 1806. This march illegally blocked traffic in both lanes of the roadway.

Once protestors arrived at the construction area, they broke down a wire fence by stepping and jumping on it. According to numerous witnesses within five minutes the crowd of protestors, estimated to be a few hundred people became violent. They stampeded into the construction area with horses, dogs and vehicles."

Law enforcement issues statement on Dakota Access Pipeline protest

So can we please stop this fiction that Standing Rock was about big bad corporations and the ebil gubment destroying peaceful law abiding drum circles on tribal land?

 

[bravotwozero]

No, it was about stopping the construction of an oil pipeline that would contaminate the drinking water supply for thousands of people...


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[Siggy]

Also by definition taxes are stealing. They are the involuntary seizure of private property through force or threat of violence.

You're also free to withdraw your tacit consent you provide the government by being here and move someplace without a government. Those roads don't build themselves. The fire department isn't funded on hopes and dreams.

 

[Siggy]

No, it was about stopping the construction of an oil pipeline that would contaminate the drinking water supply for thousands of people...


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Yep... it "could." I "could" also walk on the moon one day.

What's the alternative to moving oil? I guess we could build a rail line or run hundreds of trucks a day through the area instead... but those "could" contaminate the drinking water too.

 

[RustedFox]

You're also free to withdraw your tacit consent you provide the government by being here and move someplace without a government. Those roads don't build themselves. The fire department isn't funded on hopes and dreams.

Yawwwwn.

This argument again.

*Cue ensuing argument about privately-funded services and how they're better or worse in 3...2...1... Go.*

 

[GeneralVeers]

You're also free to withdraw your tacit consent you provide the government by being here and move someplace without a government. Those roads don't build themselves. The fire department isn't funded on hopes and dreams.

We had governments for thousands of years before income taxes. We had roads too. There are better ways of funding government than by taking private property by force. Value-added taxes, trade tariffs, user fees and services would all be a lot more fair.

The main reason we fund with income taxes is because it meets with the left wing's need for social justice and wealth redistribution.

 

[Siggy]

Yawwwwn.

This argument again.

*Cue ensuing argument about privately-funded services and how they're better or worse in 3...2...1... Go.*

As compared to the "This argument again, taxes are THEFT!" argument because, hey, all government is bad!

Remind me again, where do you live where all of the local streets are provided by a private company?
Remind me again where the case study for a private police force is?
If private fire departments are so much cheaper and more efficient, why isn't Rural Metro's fire division not growing by leaps and bounds?
If you're too poor to pay for your private fire department, I guess you should just accept that you shouldn't be poor when your house burns down too, right?