Can you be in a D.O program and still become a neurosurgeon?

[Lawpy]

I have found myself more intrigued with the D.O. program (not due to grades, but just interested in the holistic aspect of medicine )

Erase this notion from your mind. It’s a myth.

You should go to MD school over DO in any case. Neurosurgery is far more accessible to MDs than to DOs. With the residency merger, the chances of DOs matching to NSGY will likely drop close to zero.

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[GTown]

But no one is saying that just because you have an MD it is guaranteed. It's simply a statistical fact of the world we live in - DOs have an extremely difficult time getting into ultra competitive specialties. MDs just do not face the same challenges in the ACGME world. The line "it's not easy for MDs either" is just not even relevant.

I don't know what DO's you know - but no one I know has had difficulty matching what they want. Most have matched first choice. That said, I think it depends on each student and what work you are willing to put in. I'm a non-trad pharma scientist, got a 513, long list of publications, 1 drug en route to FDA approval and 1 therapy already in use in patients.

My first choice was DO (and that's where I'm going), not because I couldn't get or had bad stats - as a mature adult I made an informed decision to do what fits my expectations and life and somewhere I'd be happy (as happy as one can be in med school). I'm not too worried about matching neurosurgery or Ortho or IM. I'm worried about making sure I'm trained to be culturally and emotionally competent to provide thorough and compassionate care to patients regardless of what specialty I choose to go into.

My husband went to a prestigious east coast MD school and had classmates that didn't match, or people that matched middle of nowhere IM/FM or only prelim years. My best friend at an east coast DO school has had classmates that matched optho, radonc, Ortho. So I believe it comes down to the student. Will certain things be harder for DOs? Yes. Are they impossible? No. And that depends on the student and what they're willing to put in and get out of their education.

 

[Anti-PD1]

Oy.

I have DO friends who have made it to the moon and back, specialty wise. Anything is possible.

I think for NS, go MD, but if you go DO, you can still get NS if you want it bad enough. Simple. I'd rather be a DO vying for NS, than not have that opportunity at all.

Passion moves mountains.

Also, I have MD friends with insane credentials who didn't match NS this year. Just fyi.

 

[Brain Whisperer]

Think of NS as a 100 km race. MD starts from 20 km mark (or 30 after the merger). Can you still win? Yes, but it won't be easy.

Or another way, how "holistic" will you feel if you don't match NS because of DO? If you're fine with that chance, then go ahead OP.

 

[sab3156]

I understand that @sab315 is frustrated with GME for DOs. But he takes it way too far. Like telling someone who got a 501 on their MCAT to try harder and go MD. I totally understand how that test ruins people, and I'm thankful I have been able to walk away with a 95th percentile both times.

Be thankful that you are going to be a physician imo.

People with good GPAs who did poorly should absolutely try again and address what went wrong. If they still do poorly, they can go DO knowing they won't do better.

 

[sab3156]

you MD-wannabes seem to think that just because more doors are open, that you think that you can simply sail right through them.

Where did anyone say that? The fact remains that wanting to do NS, but going DO when you have a shot at MD is just a hilariously bad decision. That is essentially what this thread is about.

 

[Goro]

Where did anyone say that? The fact remains that wanting to do NS, but going DO when you have a shot at MD is just a hilariously bad decision. That is essentially what this thread is about.

It's the attitude dripping out of every thread like these. And the red is NOT the point of the this thread... go reread the OP's question. It was a yes or no question

 

[eberge3]

First off, Neurosurgery as an MD is not easy to match into. The answer to your question is yes, I know someone who went to LECOM-B and matched neurosurgery in California last year, so it is possible. Go look at different schools match lists and see if they have any matches. Just know that a lot of DO schools have more students that go into Primary Care so if a school does not have a neurosurg match it could be a combination of being harder to get into a program as a DO and less interest in going into that specialty.

 

[eberge3]

Erase this notion from your mind. It’s a myth.

You should go to MD school over DO in any case. Neurosurgery is far more accessible to MDs than to DOs. With the residency merger, the chances of DOs matching to NSGY will likely drop close to zero.

I disagree with this statement. With the merger programs that have been historically DO neurosurgery will still mostly take DOs. MDs trying to match into a DO program will have to show some experience with OMM. But yes obviously MD schools will provide an advantage in this case.

 

[Lawpy]

I disagree with this statement. With the merger programs that have been historically DO neurosurgery will still mostly take DOs. MDs trying to match into a DO program will have to show some experience with OMM. But yes obviously MD schools will provide an advantage in this case.

I don't think DO preferences will remain after the merger for many specialties. Many US MD students want to still match in competitive specialties and in desirable locations and the former AOA programs serve as great opportunities for those who would've otherwise gone unmatched. This is especially true for neurosurgery.

I don't think DO NSGY PDs care about OMM.

 

[sab3156]

It's the attitude dripping out of every thread like these. And the red is NOT the point of the this thread... go reread the OP's question. It was a yes or no question

It was not a yes or no question.

I have always been interested in neurosurgery as long as I can remember and now that I'm getting closer to make this dream a reality I wanted some advice before making any decision on how I should approach this.

How is this a yes or no question? Clearly he is looking for advice.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I disagree with this statement. With the merger programs that have been historically DO neurosurgery will still mostly take DOs

Lol you mean the grand total of 2 that will survive? It’s like 3 spots total

MDs trying to match into a DO program will have to show some experience with OM

Wrong. And if there is a group of people in the world who couldn’t care less about OMM it’s the neurosurgeons.

I don't think DO preferences will remain after the merger for many specialties.

I do actually. Our PDs (yes in the competitive surgical subs) have explicitly said they aren’t going to really consider MDs. Neurosurgery is different but I really don’t think most of these programs (in other competitive fields) will be taking MDs en masse. Neurosurgery is different due to most programs not making the merger, and one of those that has is now considered the home program of an MD school I believe. Carillon Clinic. Although they did take a DO from NYIT this year and they haven’t taken an MD yet even with them being ACGME accredited in like 2016 or something like that.

Many US MD students want to still match in competitive specialties and in desirable locations and the former AOA programs serve as great opportunities for those who would've otherwise gone unmatched.

Again, as I’ve said in other threads to different people you are completely underestimating the competitiveness of the majority of DO applicants that are in these specialties and programs. If anyone thinks these unmatched MD applicant types will be able to simply waltz into a former AOA spot then they are sorely mistaken. Many of these DOs are 245+ with multiple pubs and great personality type applicants.

 

[Goro]

It was not a yes or no question.



How is this a yes or no question? Clearly he is looking for advice.

Poor CARS score?

Can you be in a D.O program and still become a neurosurgeon?

 

[Lawpy]

I do actually. Our PDs (yes in the competitive surgical subs) have explicitly said they aren’t going to really consider MDs.

It's their loss then because they are missing out on strong, competitive applicants by emphasizing DO preferences.

Neurosurgery is different but I really don’t think most of these programs (in other competitive fields) will be taking MDs en masse. Neurosurgery is different due to most programs not making the merger, and one of those that has is now considered the home program of an MD school I believe. Carillon Clinic. Although they did take a DO from NYIT this year and they haven’t taken an MD yet even with them being ACGME accredited in like 2016 or something like that.

This may change in the coming years. I think what happens after 2020 will be different from present trends.

Again, as I’ve said in other threads to different people you are completely underestimating the competitiveness of the majority of DO applicants that are in these specialties and programs. If anyone thinks these unmatched MD applicant types will be able to simply waltz into a former AOA spot then they are sorely mistaken. Many of these DOs are 245+ with multiple pubs and great personality type applicants.

You're right that some DO applicants are strong, but MD applicants who go unmatched are just as strong, if not stronger. The issue with competitive specialties is there are more applicants than seats available. So unmatched applicants are competitive but for whatever reason went unmatched. It's not like unmatched MD applicants had red flags in their applications that make them weaker than DO applicants. With former AOA programs now becoming ACGME, they offer more openings for possibly unmatched MD applicants to apply to and pursue their specialty of choice.

MD schools are backed with strong research and networking opportunities. DO schools don't have these resources. If DO students continue to match into ACGME residencies after the merger, the likely contributing factor is continued DO preferences by former AOA PDs, which again is their loss.

I'm not saying these specialties will become inaccessible to DO students after the merger, but it's just extremely unlikely. It's not at all easy for DO candidates to outcompete MD candidates backed by strong research and networking backgrounds, and this is due to the fundamental limitations of DO schools.

 

[eberge3]

I don't think DO NSGY PDs care about OMM.

We have to agree to disagree lol because DO NSGY PDs are very much proud of their osteopathic education especially in these programs.

Lol you mean the grand total of 2 that will survive? It’s like 3 spots total

There are currently 10 DO residency NSGY 6 of them will survive. Not a lot yes, but your facts were wrong. No one is arguing that it is easy for a DO to match in this type of residency but it is very much so possible. There are 117 ACGME MD NSG residences. I would say a good amount will not even consider a DO however a good amount would, and if you have good USMLE scores, have good research publications there is no reason why a PD should not consider you if you are competitive.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

It's their loss then because they are missing out on strong, competitive applicants by emphasizing DO preferences.

Lol the two things are not mutually exclusive. They miss out on nothing.

but MD applicants who go unmatched are just as strong, if not stronger.

No they aren’t. You aren’t hearing me. The DO applicants in these AOA programs and in these fields are by and large better than the unmatched MD applicants to those fields. They have great boards, and good research. You are greatly underestimating the competitiveness of the top DO students.

The issue with competitive specialties is there are more applicants than seats available. So unmatched applicants are competitive but for whatever reason went unmatched. It's not like unmatched MD applicants had red flags in their applications that make them weaker than DO applicants. With former AOA programs now becoming ACGME, they offer more openings for possibly unmatched MD applicants to apply to and pursue their specialty of choice.

And I’m telling you that the number of DO superstars walking around with 245+ Steps and with good research profiles is much higher than you think. The world has largely not seen these superstars because why would they risk going through the ACGME match where they face huge amounts of bias when they can guarantee themselves a spot at their AOA program of choice? Especially seeing as the training is largely the same, AOA programs match fellows in competitive programs frequently, and the only difference is a slightly more recognizable name.

Last year DMU alone had about 20 people with a 240 plus. Of their ortho matches 3 of them were 260+..

These are the people the unmatched MD applicants are competing with. It’s a myth that DOs only get their competitive residency spots by being nice and having a good audition but the academics are bad.

MD schools are backed with strong research and networking opportunities. DO schools don't have these resources. If DO students continue to match into ACGME residencies after the merger, the likely contributing factor is continued DO preferences by former AOA PDs, which again is their loss.

Yes but we aren’t talking about DO schools in general. We are talking about the DO superstars competing for these specialties. These people have research, and solid research at that. Every single person I know that is pursuing these specialties already has roughly 3+ publications.. like actual pub med publications. Multiple have 5+ and one will have 20 by the time they actually apply for residency. Think publications in journals like JBJS, JAMA Otolaryngology, and other top surgical journals.

You are simply false in your assertation that PDs of these programs in very competitive specialties are losing something by not taking MD applicants. They aren’t missing out on anything.

There are currently 10 DO residency NSGY 6 of them will survive.

Only 2 of them have achieved accreditation to this point. I’ll believe the others will survive when they get initial accreditation.

 

[Lawpy]

Lol the two things are not mutually exclusive. They miss out on nothing.



No they aren’t. You aren’t hearing me. The DO applicants in these AOA programs and in these fields are by and large better than the unmatched MD applicants to those fields. They have great boards, and good research. You are greatly underestimating the competitiveness of the top DO students.



And I’m telling you that the number of DO superstars walking around with 245+ Steps and with good research profiles is much higher than you think. The world has largely not seen these superstars because why would they risk going through the ACGME match where they face huge amounts of bias when they can guarantee themselves a spot at their AOA program of choice? Especially seeing as the training is largely the same, AOA programs match fellows in competitive programs frequently, and the only difference is a slightly more recognizable name.

Last year DMU alone had about 20 people with a 240 plus. Of their ortho matches 3 of them were 260+..

These are the people the unmatched MD applicants are competing with. It’s a myth that DOs only get their competitive residency spots by being nice and having a good audition but the academics are bad.



Yes but we aren’t talking about DO schools in general. We are talking about the DO superstars competing for these specialties. These people have research, and solid research at that. Every single person I know that is pursuing these specialties already has roughly 3+ publications.. like actual pub med publications. Multiple have 5+ and one will have 20 by the time they actually apply for residency. Think publications in journals like JBJS, JAMA Otolaryngology, and other top surgical journals.

You are simply false in your assertation that PDs of these programs in very competitive specialties are losing something by not taking MD applicants. They aren’t missing out on anything.



Only 2 of them have achieved accreditation to this point. I’ll believe the others will survive when they get initial accreditation.

Help me understand one thing. Where are the DO superstars getting their productive research from? How are they getting good sub-Is and strong away rotations to strengthen their applications?

If DO schools are limited in what they can offer, where are the DO superstars getting the necessary resources to make their applications competitive?

 

[Lexdiamondz]

I disagree with this statement. With the merger programs that have been historically DO neurosurgery will still mostly take DOs. MDs trying to match into a DO program will have to show some experience with OMM. But yes obviously MD schools will provide an advantage in this case.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

Many, if not most of the Osteopathic Neurosurgery programs have multiple faculty who are largely MDs, all of whom trained at ACGME neurosurgery residencies. If the attendings teaching them don't need OMM why on earth would residents be required to show experience with OMM?

Furthermore, given that most of the faculty at osteopathic nsgy residencies are MDs, why would you assume that once they've merged that they would still prefer DOs?

 

[Chibucks15]

Help me understand one thing. Where are the DO superstars getting their productive research from? How are they getting good sub-Is and strong away rotations to strengthen their applications?

If DO schools are limited in what they can offer, where are the DO superstars getting the necessary resources to make their applications competitive?

They bust their butt to make it happen. I know several people who applied to research positions all over the country this summer and many of them are going. It's all about the hustle for the research side of things if you don't have connections outright. Only a first year so cant speak to the sub-I side of things

 

[Lexdiamondz]

They bust their butt to make it happen. I know several people who applied to research positions all over the country this summer and many of them are going. It's all about the hustle for the research side of things if you don't have connections outright. Only a first year so cant speak to the sub-I side of things

I find it interesting how somehow everyone on this forum knows "someone" from a DO school who matched some crazy competitive specialty meanwhile the numbers of DOs nationwide matching into these specialties are in the low double digits.

I mean, I went to a school of 160 per class and I don't even know everyone I graduated with - nevermind some rando from 3 classes ahead of me. Smells like BS to me.

 

[Mad Jack]

I thought that the federal funds that went to AOA positions that are closing was just being reallocated to AOA programs who made the merger so they could take more students. So really the spots aren’t being “lost”.

HAHAHAHAHAhehahjahaoihaosjf;lasej

That's not how any of this works. Program capacity is determined by teaching capability per ACGME standards. I've seen several programs that lost spots because they didn't have the faculty or available rotations to meet ACGME quality measures at their current levels. Those funds do not get redistributed, and AOA programs that pull through aren't magically going to have expanded teaching capacity just because they were given more cash.

 

[Mad Jack]

Nice strawman Goro, I expect better from you. You’re resorting to pretend arguments because you have no real argument that counter my fact based statements. It’s also tiresome to repeatedly see you post the company line, “well it’s hard for MDs too” with regards to fields like NS where you can be perfect, apply to every program in this country and not even get 5 interviews.


This is a thread asking about neurosurgery. So sorry but in the world of neurosurgery DO’s, to use your terms, are ****ed. Troll or not someone is going to come along and read this thread wanting to go to a DO school and be a neurosurgeon and if they read statements like, “well it’s not impossible, “you can do it if you work hard” they can easily get a false picture of reality. You want to be a neurosurgeon? Do anything you have to in order to go to an MD school. The amount of effort needed to fix a bad MCAT or do an SMP is minuscule to the amount of effort it will take to be one of the handful of DO students out of 8k that gets to be a neurosurgeon.

Clearly you don’t read my posts very much or you would realize that I am very optimistic about the future for DO’s.

Yeah. Neurosurgery can happen. But it's a long shot. There were 218 neurosurgery spots in the NRMP match, a grand total of two of which went to DOs. In the military where odds are even if you take the USMLE, you've got a better shot, but even that's a long shot. Compare that with 183 out of 212 USMDs matching neurosurg that year, and it's pretty clear that MD is the way to go when it comes to cutting brains.

 

[Chibucks15]

I find it interesting how somehow everyone on this forum knows "someone" from a DO school who matched some crazy competitive specialty meanwhile the numbers of DOs nationwide matching into these specialties are in the low double digits.

I mean, I went to a school of 160 per class and I don't even know everyone I graduated with - nevermind some rando from 3 classes ahead of me. Smells like BS to me.

Oh I agree with that...and since were only first years I couldn't tell you how many people will end up matching well. All I was saying is that people put on some serious hustle and got some pretty good research spots for the summer, not to mention the ones my school puts up.

Who knows where they match or what they even end up applying for, but its possible to get some solid research opportunities if you look and do the leg work

 

[eberge3]

I don't think DO preferences will remain after the merger for many specialties. Many US MD students want to still match in competitive specialties and in desirable locations and the former AOA programs serve as great opportunities for those who would've otherwise gone unmatched. This is especially true for neurosurgery.

I don't think DO NSGY PDs care about OMM.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

Many, if not most of the Osteopathic Neurosurgery programs have multiple faculty who are largely MDs, all of whom trained at ACGME neurosurgery residencies. If the attendings teaching them don't need OMM why on earth would residents be required to show experience with OMM?

Furthermore, given that most of the faculty at osteopathic nsgy residencies are MDs, why would you assume that once they've merged that they would still prefer DOs?

I mean I have a friend at a very well known DO NSGY in Cali and have talked to him a lot about this so I judging based off that.

 

[Mad Jack]

I find it interesting how somehow everyone on this forum knows "someone" from a DO school who matched some crazy competitive specialty meanwhile the numbers of DOs nationwide matching into these specialties are in the low double digits.

I mean, I went to a school of 160 per class and I don't even know everyone I graduated with - nevermind some rando from 3 classes ahead of me. Smells like BS to me.

I mean, we had three ophtho matches- one military ACGME, one NRMP ACGME, and one AOA, for instance. We had one AOA neurosurg, 6 ACGME diagnostic radiology matches (two of which were military), 5 ACGME anesthesia matches at some solid places (Brown, Georgetown), 3 ortho matches (all AOA tho), 1 ENT (AOA tho), 3 derm matches (two military ACGME, one NRMP ACGME), and a bunch of other decent matches on the board in my class alone. So like, everybody knows someone that's done something cool. And you expand that to every DO class, and well, you get the idea that a lot of things are possible. Probable though? Unlikely.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Help me understand one thing. Where are the DO superstars getting their productive research from? How are they getting good sub-Is and strong away rotations to strengthen their applications?

You do realize that things such as summer research options exist right? Not all research is done at the home medical school. The DO applicants who are aiming for super competitive specialties know they likely won’t find any on campus and they find opportunities outside of their home school. The state schools have access to research. All research at my school is done on campus. We publish in top journals every year.

Away rotations? Your kidding right? Getting away rotations or sub-i’s is not hard. You apply through VSAS and most spots are given away on a first come first serve basis. I’ve never heard of anyone having a hard time finding strong away rotations if they wanted them.

If DO schools are limited in what they can offer, where are the DO superstars getting the necessary resources to make their applications competitive?

See above. You seem to be under the impression that putting together a good residency application is impossible from a DO school. It’s not. It’s more difficult yes but the motivated superstars find their opportunities and take advantage of them. More difficult does not mean it’s impossible

I find it interesting how somehow everyone on this forum knows "someone" from a DO school who matched some crazy competitive specialty meanwhile the numbers of DOs nationwide matching into these specialties are in the low double digits.

Would you like me to give you exact names of these people? We are also talking about people matching to AOA programs which makes the number of people matched gets bigger.

I mean, I went to a school of 160 per class and I don't even know everyone I graduated with - nevermind some rando from 3 classes ahead of me. Smells like BS to me.

When you go to a DO school and want something competitive you know the odds are stacked against you. It’s very common to seek out the seniors applying or the ones that matched so you can mimic what they did. The group of people who are actually serious about pursuing competitive fields at DO schools is small and it’s not hard to know who people are and get advice from them.

 

[Lawpy]

You do realize that things such as summer research options exist right? Not all research is done at the home medical school. The DO applicants who are aiming for super competitive specialties know they likely won’t find any on campus and they find opportunities outside of their home school. The state schools have access to research. All research at my school is done on campus. We publish in top journals every year.

Away rotations? Your kidding right? Getting away rotations or sub-i’s is not hard. You apply through VSAS and most spots are given away on a first come first serve basis. I’ve never heard of anyone having a hard time finding strong away rotations if they wanted them.


See above. You seem to be under the impression that putting together a good residency application is impossible from a DO school. It’s not. It’s more difficult yes but the motivated superstars find their opportunities and take advantage of them. More difficult does not mean it’s impossible



Would you like me to give you exact names of these people? We are also talking about people matching to AOA programs which makes the number of people matched gets bigger.


When you go to a DO school and want something competitive you know the odds are stacked against you. It’s very common to seek out the seniors applying or the ones that matched so you can mimic what they did. The group of people who are actually serious about pursuing competitive fields at DO schools is small and it’s not hard to know who people are and get advice from them.

Would you still say this is school specific? Iirc your school is one of the strongest, most established DO schools in the country so the fact that students can get strong research and clinical opportunities to strengthen their applications for competitive specialties makes sense. Same applies to schools like KCUMB, MSUCOM, DMU and CCOM.

But what about weaker DO schools or schools arising from DO expansion? The students there would essentially be "locked out" of competitive specialties because it'd be hard for them to get summer research and good aways?

Or do you believe regardless of the school, any student who's motivated enough can build competitive applications for residency? I was thinking school reputation places a ceiling on what their students could do, but if you believe the ceiling doesn't exist, you could be right.

 

[NotYY4U]

Hello,

I have always been interested in neurosurgery as long as I can remember and now that I'm getting closer to make this dream a reality I wanted some advice before making any decision on how I should approach this. Generally, most neurosurgeons are M.D.'s, however I have found myself more intrigued with the D.O. program (not due to grades, but just interested in the holistic aspect of medicine ), and was wondering if there is even a route that leads to neurosurgery. With all this said, I do understand that my interests may change as i am going through residencies, fellowships etc., but until that day doesn't come I want to keep my goal set on neurosurgery.

Any kind of suggestions to comments would be appreciated. Thank you

No.

If you go to a DO school you will enter FM, you can't even do IM as a DO.

Troll level over 9,000

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Or do you believe regardless of the school, any student who's motivated enough can build competitive applications for residency? I was thinking school reputation places a ceiling on what their students could do, but if you believe the ceiling doesn't exist, you could be right.

This is where it gets a little nuanced. Yes the older and established DO schools will have a resource advantage over the newer ones (this is a generalization, schools like RVU buck that notion), but honestly outside of regional effects I don’t really think PDs care what DO school you are from, they just see “DO.”

For example, someone in the very first class at ACOM matched Hopkins for Anesthesia, which, while anesthesia has lost competitiveness, is still impressive because it is a top program and you don’t just land that spot without a great board score coupled with quality research.

I do actually think that a student who is motivated enough can find the research experience necessary to build a competitive app from any school. I don’t know why you keep bringing up aways because they definitely aren’t any sort of a barrier an applicant has to overcome. Pretty much anyone can get aways.

 

[allin1211]

I find it interesting how somehow everyone on this forum knows "someone" from a DO school who matched some crazy competitive specialty meanwhile the numbers of DOs nationwide matching into these specialties are in the low double digits.

I mean, I went to a school of 160 per class and I don't even know everyone I graduated with - nevermind some rando from 3 classes ahead of me. Smells like BS to me.

You do realize that some DO school's post their match results right? My school posts the speciality and how many students matched each one. And every year there are always people who match "some crazy competitive speciality"

 

[sab3156]

Poor CARS score?

Can you be in a D.O program and still become a neurosurgeon?

So the subject is all you read? Did you read this part? -

Any kind of suggestions to comments would be appreciated. Thank you

I had a ~98%ile MCAT, but thanks for that personal attack. Expected better from you, to be honest.

 

[sab3156]

Would you still say this is school specific? Iirc your school is one of the strongest, most established DO schools in the country so the fact that students can get strong research and clinical opportunities to strengthen their applications for competitive specialties makes sense. Same applies to schools like KCUMB, MSUCOM, DMU and CCOM.

But what about weaker DO schools or schools arising from DO expansion? The students there would essentially be "locked out" of competitive specialties because it'd be hard for them to get summer research and good aways?

Or do you believe regardless of the school, any student who's motivated enough can build competitive applications for residency? I was thinking school reputation places a ceiling on what their students could do, but if you believe the ceiling doesn't exist, you could be right.

I can tell you for a fact that many, many people at KCU cannot even get responses back from researchers at the neighboring academic centers. I would assume if you are at some place like CCOM or NYIT, you may have better chances as a DO to get research at some good places, but I don't know anyone there so I can't comment. KCU is just dry as hell when it comes to academic research opportunities. But according to people that I spoke to, it also seems that no one is really that excited about teaming up with a DO student... who knows.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

I thought that the federal funds that went to AOA positions that are closing was just being reallocated to AOA programs who made the merger so they could take more students. So really the spots aren’t being “lost”.

Straight to new FM/IM community programs that are easier to accredit.

 

[Lexdiamondz]

You do realize that some DO school's post their match results right? My school posts the speciality and how many students matched each one. And every year there are always people who match "some crazy competitive speciality"

And you know there’s a difference between knowing someone and seeing a match list, right?

 

[Rei02sDinnerParty]

I can tell you for a fact that many, many people at KCU cannot even get responses back from researchers at the neighboring academic centers. I would assume if you are at some place like CCOM or NYIT, you may have better chances as a DO to get research at some good places, but I don't know anyone there so I can't comment. KCU is just dry as hell when it comes to academic research opportunities. But according to people that I spoke to, it also seems that no one is really that excited about teaming up with a DO student... who knows.

@sab3156 when I come to KCU next year, I want to give you a hug and say everything will be ok bb.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Chibucks15]

I can tell you for a fact that many, many people at KCU cannot even get responses back from researchers at the neighboring academic centers. I would assume if you are at some place like CCOM or NYIT, you may have better chances as a DO to get research at some good places, but I don't know anyone there so I can't comment. KCU is just dry as hell when it comes to academic research opportunities. But according to people that I spoke to, it also seems that no one is really that excited about teaming up with a DO student... who knows.

DMU is in a more 'rural' location then KCU. Some people found some opportunities here but many I've talked to are going to many different places to join studies. Some east coast institutions, have a couple in the SW, etc. I'm sure people have opportunities where they're from too. And that's just the limited people I've talked to in my class. Every school is different and nobody is denying its much harder when you don't have research linkage, but certainly not impossible. Definitely agree though depending on what specialty you're trying to research with.

 

[mwsapphire]

It's their loss then because they are missing out on strong, competitive applicants by emphasizing DO preferences.



This may change in the coming years. I think what happens after 2020 will be different from present trends.



You're right that some DO applicants are strong, but MD applicants who go unmatched are just as strong, if not stronger. The issue with competitive specialties is there are more applicants than seats available. So unmatched applicants are competitive but for whatever reason went unmatched. It's not like unmatched MD applicants had red flags in their applications that make them weaker than DO applicants. With former AOA programs now becoming ACGME, they offer more openings for possibly unmatched MD applicants to apply to and pursue their specialty of choice.

MD schools are backed with strong research and networking opportunities. DO schools don't have these resources. If DO students continue to match into ACGME residencies after the merger, the likely contributing factor is continued DO preferences by former AOA PDs, which again is their loss.

I'm not saying these specialties will become inaccessible to DO students after the merger, but it's just extremely unlikely. It's not at all easy for DO candidates to outcompete MD candidates backed by strong research and networking backgrounds, and this is due to the fundamental limitations of DO schools.

Dude, Lawper, generally your posts are good but this reallly sounds like you think MD applicants will always be better than DO no matter what the circumstances and that just simply....isn't....true.

If anything, DO students have to be stronger to even compare to MD's in the first place, so generally the DO's applying for things like NRSRG are insanely strong, stronger than their MD counterparts because they had to be.

It's possible to pursue research opportunities not offered by your school , just like people who go to LAC's for UGrad can do enough research to apply to MD/PhD programs, it's not undoable.

 

[Lawpy]

Dude, Lawper, generally your posts are good but this reallly sounds like you think MD applicants will always be better than DO no matter what the circumstances and that just simply....isn't....true.

If anything, DO students have to be stronger to even compare to MD's in the first place, so generally the DO's applying for things like NRSRG are insanely strong, stronger than their MD counterparts because they had to be.

It's possible to pursue research opportunities not offered by your school , just like people who go to LAC's for UGrad can do enough research to apply to MD/PhD programs, it's not undoable.

I mean it's generally common knowledge that MD schools are stronger than DO schools, so that can be extended to MD students on average being stronger than DO students. The rockstar MD applicants likely outcompete the rockstar DO applicants and these trends are seen in the match lists.

I don't think DO superstars are stronger than MD superstars in any specialty. You can make an argument that DO superstars can compete with above average MD applicants or are better than many MD applicants, but that assumes too many things. Just as DO superstars find ways to get strong research, MD superstars can do the same and get even better output.

 

[mwsapphire]

I mean it's generally common knowledge that MD schools are stronger than DO schools, so that can be extended to MD students on average being stronger than DO students. The rockstar MD applicants likely outcompete the rockstar DO applicants and these trends are seen in the match lists.

I don't think DO superstars are stronger than MD superstars in any specialty. You can make an argument that DO superstars can compete with above average MD applicants or are better than many MD applicants, but that assumes too many things. Just as DO superstars find ways to get strong research, MD superstars can do the same and get even better output.

But DO students work harder to find those opportunities, how do we know that MD students will work that hard? It's more like they rest on the name of their school and Do students know that they can't.

 

[Lawpy]

But DO students work harder to find those opportunities, how do we know that MD students will work that hard? It's more like they rest on the name of their school and Do students know that they can't.

That isn't true though. Even students at Top 20 schools work really hard to match well.

 

[Chibucks15]

But DO students work harder to find those opportunities, how do we know that MD students will work that hard? It's more like they rest on the name of their school and Do students know that they can't.

Yeah that's nowhere near true. Its part of getting into this life. You don't get here and you dont get to stay in it if you just sit around and don't work hard...hell if anything some DO students just sit back because they view it as a lost cause to get into something super specialized.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

The rockstar MD applicants likely outcompete the rockstar DO applicants and these trends are seen in the match lists.

This denies any sort of bias actually exists which we know simply isn’t true.

I don't think DO superstars are stronger than MD superstars in any specialty.

You are making sweeping generalities that have no basis in reality. Yes on average the MD applicant is better but there are still DO superstars that can go toe to toe with just about any applicant in the country. Yes there are fewer of them but they are out there. Please tell me how much better someone can get then a 274 Step with 15 publications... Yes these DO students exist.

The student who won Osteopathic Researcher of the Year will probably finish school with close to 30 publications.

But DO students work harder to find those opportunities, how do we know that MD students will work that hard? It's more like they rest on the name of their school and Do students know that they can't.

This isn’t true.

 

[Lawpy]

This denies any sort of bias actually exists which we know simply isn’t true.



You are making sweeping generalities that have no basis in reality. Yes on average the MD applicant is better but there are still DO superstars that can go toe to toe with just about any applicant in the country. Yes there are fewer of them but they are out there. Please tell me how much better someone can get then a 274 Step with 15 publications... Yes these DO students exist.

The student who won Osteopathic Researcher of the Year will probably finish school with close to 30 publications.



This isn’t true.

It’s not just the step scores and publications that matter. Strong letters and networking also matter. Also I think you’re overemphasizing the minority of DO students who actually have these credentials. Sure they exist but the fraction is smaller than for similar MD counterparts.

But if you want to believe DO superstars can compete evenly with MD superstars, we’ll have to agree to disagree. Whether you want to attribute the resulting differences in matching outcomes to bias or partiality on part of PDs is up to you. The MD superstars have applications that dwarf virtually everyone.

 

[bigindian4891]

But DO students work harder to find those opportunities, how do we know that MD students will work that hard? It's more like they rest on the name of their school and Do students know that they can't.

Oh dear. You need some real world experience, friend, the world doesn't work like you think it does.

 

[mwsapphire]

Yeah that's nowhere near true. Its part of getting into this life. You don't get here and you dont get to stay in it if you just sit around and don't work hard...hell if anything some DO students just sit back because they view it as a lost cause to get into something super specialized.

Sorry, I was being hyperbolic to make my point. I should have said that they might, and we don't know for sure that every MD applicant is better than every DO applicant.
My point is DO's know that the cards are stacked against them and would have to work harder to be a strong applicant, and I don't think making sweeping statements saying an MD will always, always be better than a DO is worth it.
Im not saying I could match nuerosurg, btw, or that I would be able to make it to med school at all, I'm just saying saying MD applicants will always be better than DO is so Black and White and sort of devalues DO's, you know?

 

[Chibucks15]

Sorry that was kind of hyperbolic to make my point.
My point is DO's know that the cards are stacked against them and would have to work harder to be a strong applicant, and I don't think making sweeping statements saying an MD will always, always be better than a DO is worth it.
Im not saying I could match nuerosurg, btw, or that I would be able to make it to med school at all, I'm just saying saying MD applicants will always be better than DO is so Black and White and sort of devalues DO's, you know?

I'm a DO student I know. But for the time being, that's exactly how it is at many programs. It sucks but until the merger is like a decade old its gonna be like that. If anyone wants something super competitive work harder and get into MD. I'm lucky to not want that so enjoying DO life is fine by me

 

[mwsapphire]

I'm a DO student I know. But for the time being, that's exactly how it is at many programs. It sucks but until the merger is like a decade old its gonna be like that. If anyone wants something super competitive work harder and get into MD. I'm lucky to not want that so enjoying DO life is fine by me

I'd imagine the merger would kick in faster than that.....
If I made it med school, I'd matriculate in 2020, I'd imagine whatever effect the merger is going to have will be apparent by the time I match , if and when that happens.

 

[Chibucks15]

I'd imagine the merger would kick in faster than that.....
If I made it med school, I'd matriculate in 2020, I'd imagine whatever effect the merger is going to have will be apparent by the time I match , if and when that happens.

I appreciate you posting on forums but word to the wise...if you haven't even applied yet try avoiding talking about the nature of the DO work ethic compared to MD and vice versa. Not good for the credibility...
The bias is real and will continue to be for the forseeable future. Just go into it with that mindset and work your tail off and see what happens

 

[mwsapphire]

I appreciate you posting on forums but word to the wise...if you haven't even applied yet try avoiding talking about the nature of the DO work ethic compared to MD and vice versa. Not good for the credibility...
The bias is real and will continue to be for the forseeable future. Just go into it with that mindset and work your tail off and see what happens

Most of what I know is anecdotal. I do know a handful of ppl in DO and MD programs both, and one family member who owns his own practice with DO's and MD's working alongside, in the DO rich state of PA. So I'm not totally out of it, but I see your point.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Also I think you’re overemphasizing the minority of DO students who actually have these credentials. Sure they exist but the fraction is smaller than for similar MD counterparts.

Obviously on raw numbers yes the MD superstars will dwarf them seeing as there are literally thousands more MD students overall. Honestly though if you take the percentage of “superstar” MDs and then look at the percentage of “superstar” DOs i’m not sure it would be all that different.

I also disagree with the notion that MD superstars have applications that dwarf everyone else. If you mean the people that have basically written a book on surgery before they even start residency then yeah they do, but a “superstar” to me means anyone who matches into a top program. Those people don’t “dwarf” everyone the way you think they do. Someone matched a top ENT program this year from a state MD school (being intentionally vague) and their app was great but it wasn’t otherworldly.