Canada's System sucks for you, but it is good enough for me

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im starting to think his neighbor had the right idea....
 
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"the only licensed hospital in the world dedicated to repairing hernias"

How hard can it possibly be to do a hernia repair? He's not even fat. I'm surprised that Paul, a doctor, would fall for that BS.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
It's Canada's version of the Mayo Clinic for hernias. A family member went here for a hernia repair. Excellent concierge experience and US insurance paid for it, but you have to submit your own billing. Their rates are cheaper than out of network in the US so it's a no-brainer for the insurance company. Easy if you understand the billing side of medicine.

US and International Patients
All patients who have submitted their medical questionnaire for assessment and have been qualified for surgery will receive a letter outlining our estimated fees specific to their stated surgical procedure and related hospital stay. Patients with private insurance coverage may be eligible for reimbursement on submission of paperwork provided to you. We do not bill insurance companies on your behalf, however, Shouldice Hospital has no-cost consultants trained to help you with your claim (as foreign insurance coverage is complicated we encourage all patients to pre-approve their coverage prior to admission).

All charges are payable on admission by credit card, bank draft or cash.
 
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Looks like the " Laser Spine of Hernias"
 
yahoo and other liberal news outlets are using this story to promote socialized medicine here in the US
 
I'll cross post from the SPF thread about this:


My guess is that there is a hernia guru there. And depending on the hernia or type and nuance of the case he thought this guy would be the best. He's a surgical sub specialist himself.

I don't see how this story is even a story.
There is: https://www.shouldice.com/

And that's where he's going: Rand Paul to have hernia surgery in Canada

Atul Gawande used this group in his first book as an example of how numbers matter in surgical outcomes: No Mistake

In most hospitals, hernia operations take about 90 minutes and cost more than $4,000; in 10-15% of the cases, the operation fails and the hernia returns. At the Shouldice Hospital, a small medical center outside Toronto, however, hernia operations take 30-45 minutes, the recurrence rate is 1%, and the cost is around $2,000. The secret of the clinic's success is that the 12 surgeons at Shouldice perform hernia operations and nothing else; each surgeon repairs between 600-800 hernias a year--more than most general surgeons do in a lifetime.

If I had a hernia and lots of money, that's where I would go.


Edit: Its amazing how 90 seconds of Google can make this an absolute non-story.
 
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I'll cross post from the SPF thread about this:



There is: Welcome to Shouldice Hernia Hospital, The Global Leader in Non-Mesh Hernia Repair.

And that's where he's going: Rand Paul to have hernia surgery in Canada

Atul Gawande used this group in his first book as an example of how numbers matter in surgical outcomes: No Mistake



If I had a hernia and lots of money, that's where I would go.


Edit: Its amazing how 90 seconds of Google can make this an absolute non-story.

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From the hip!!
 
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today i learned from this thread that i would not want to do hernia surgeries all day every day for years for some special hospital in Canada.
 
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yahoo and other liberal news outlets are using this story to promote socialized medicine here in the US
NO , really just pointing out the Hypocrisy Of Rand Paul
 
today i learned from this thread that i would not want to do hernia surgeries all day every day for years for some special hospital in Canada.
I bet those surgeons make a sh@t ton of money
 
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Members don't see this ad :)
I bet those surgeons make a sh@t ton of money
That was my thought too. Medicare pays around $500 for a hernia. Let's say Canada pays better so up to $700. At let's say 700 operations per year. That's 500k/year. No trauma call, likely no ER call other than your patients. I suspect no weekends or holidays. If you like hernia repairs, that's a pretty sweet deal.
 
NO , really just pointing out the Hypocrisy Of Rand Paul
I see the temptation to do this but I don't agree. A libertarian will be the first to tell you anyone should be able to get treatment anywhere they want. Also, the system we have in America is not exactly Rand Paul's system. We have a quasi socialist system now IMO.

If Bernie went to Canada to get care, would you excuse him because he's a socialist? Or attack him because he has Medicare and it's good enough for all but not for him?
 
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NO , really just pointing out the Hypocrisy Of Rand Paul

ummmmmm what hypocrisy?.....i wouldnt mind a similar system here if we can accept private/free market money. As long as the govt doesnt force us not to, im fine with that kind of "socialized medicine".
 
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To use his employers insurance (and/or his own cash) to buy a service is not hypocrisy
He is not using private insurance, he is suing the guy that beat his ass to pay for.
Hernia from a beat down sounds sketchy as well
 
ummmmmm what hypocrisy?.....i wouldnt mind a similar system here if we can accept private/free market money. As long as the govt doesnt force us not to, im fine with that kind of "socialized medicine".

Maybe for this reasoning
"Sen. Rand Paul (R-KY), a libertarian who in the past has compared Canadian-style single-payer health care systems to “slavery”

Perpetuating the myth about how bad Canada's Healthcare system is , instead of being honest and saying they have a combination of Public and private healthcare
 
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He is not using private insurance, he is suing the guy that beat his ass to pay for.
Hernia from a beat down sounds sketchy as well

thats a good point. he had a bunch of broken ribs, but he probably had a pre-existing hernia that he is trying to roll into this injury. sort of like a dude with a horrible back that all of a sudden says that his 5 disc herniations was from lifting something at work.


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Maybe for this reasoning
"Sen. Rand Paul (R-KY), a libertarian who in the past has compared Canadian-style single-payer health care systems to “slavery”

Perpetuating the myth about how bad Canada's Healthcare system is , instead of being honest and saying they have a combination of Public and private healthcare

im not familiar with the details, but maybe he did say that in the very next sentence, or maybe it was taken out of context, or maybe it was political rhetoric. Until the details of his situation are clearer, im against socialized medicine.
 
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Maybe for this reasoning
"Sen. Rand Paul (R-KY), a libertarian who in the past has compared Canadian-style single-payer health care systems to “slavery”

Perpetuating the myth about how bad Canada's Healthcare system is , instead of being honest and saying they have a combination of Public and private healthcare
But the charging everyone for the public part (the slavery equation) regardless of what they want is still 100%. So that part isn’t a myth
 
"...that the system can offer"... Does that mean that private care can't be superior in any way?

That's my problem with socialized medicine and liberalism in general. It's ok that free market enterprise, that private wealth, that exclusive private healthcare, are collateral damage in the quest to eliminate "inequality".

I have no problem trying to address public healthcare, poverty, etc. But programs always conscript and corrupt the free market.
 
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"...that the system can offer"... Does that mean that private care can't be superior in any way?

That's my problem with socialized medicine and liberalism in general. It's ok that free market enterprise, that private wealth, that exclusive private healthcare, are collateral damage in the quest to eliminate "inequality".

I have no problem trying to address public healthcare, poverty, etc. But programs always conscript and corrupt the free market.

you are certainly raising legitimate questions. the point of the meme was to highlight how much of a moonbat rand paul is. nobody is dragging you out of your house if there is public healthcare (besides your neighbor because you refuse to trim the hedge going into his yard).

unless we, as a society, are willing to accept that a public option will essentially be crappy and you have to pay for a cadillac plan, there will continue to be a lot of unhappy people on both sides of this equation.
 
What makes Rand Paul a moonbat?
 
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What makes Rand Paul a moonbat?

I sort of think all libertarians live in some idealistic fantasy land, but equating obamacare to slavery is a bit of a stretch
 
Just had a patient from the mountains of British Columbia drive 4-5 hours to see me. Pudendal Neuralgia. Waited 10 months for a Gyn consult who ordered pudendal nerve blocks, and then she was told she had to wait another 7 months for the pudendal nerve blocks. But the gynecologist forgot to submit the request until she checked 2 months later, so that pushed the block wait time to 9 months. So that is 19 months of waiting for a simple nerve block. She drove to see me and had a consult and pudendal nerve blocks the same day. She was so happy with the Canadian socialize system, let me tell you. Just singing its praises.
 
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Just had a patient from the mountains of British Columbia drive 4-5 hours to see me. Pudendal Neuralgia. Waited 10 months for a Gyn consult who ordered pudendal nerve blocks, and then she was told she had to wait another 7 months for the pudendal nerve blocks. But the gynecologist forgot to submit the request until she checked 2 months later, so that pushed the block wait time to 9 months. So that is 19 months of waiting for a simple nerve block. She drove to see me and had a consult and pudendal nerve blocks the same day. She was so happy with the Canadian socialize system, let me tell you. Just singing its praises.

Well for a guy who is always claiming the " sky is falling" for his private practice maybe the Canadian system would be better for you.
People in Canada apparently like it
New poll shows Canadians overwhelmingly support public health care – Healthcare-NOW!
 
Unless we, as a society, are willing to accept that a public option will essentially be crappy and you have to pay for a cadillac plan, there will continue to be a lot of unhappy people on both sides of this equation.
It seems like Bernie and others don't think it's fair that Cadillac plans even exist. They think everyone should have equal care regardless of ability or willingness to pay.

To me this has nothing to do with helping people and everything to do with a misguided sense of social justice.
 
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It seems like Bernie and others don't think it's fair that Cadillac plans even exist. They think everyone should have equal care regardless of ability or willingness to pay.

To me this has nothing to do with helping people and everything to do with a misguided sense of social justice.

Seems to you? Has Sanders ever said this?
 
It seems like Bernie and others don't think it's fair that Cadillac plans even exist. They think everyone should have equal care regardless of ability or willingness to pay.

To me this has nothing to do with helping people and everything to do with a misguided sense of social justice.

i dont think this is bernie's plan, but if it is, there is nothing "misguided" about it. this would be the most fair way to do it. you shouldnt be entitled to better care just because you happen to be rich. right now, that is the way it is, and the way it will continue to be for better or worse
 
you are certainly raising legitimate questions. the point of the meme was to highlight how much of a moonbat rand paul is. nobody is dragging you out of your house if there is public healthcare (besides your neighbor because you refuse to trim the hedge going into his yard).

unless we, as a society, are willing to accept that a public option will essentially be crappy and you have to pay for a cadillac plan, there will continue to be a lot of unhappy people on both sides of this equation.
But you are dragging a large sum from my paycheck that I don’t want to pay
 
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i dont think this is bernie's plan, but if it is, there is nothing "misguided" about it. this would be the most fair way to do it. you shouldnt be entitled to better care just because you happen to be rich. right now, that is the way it is, and the way it will continue to be for better or worse
Willing to pay more always means you end up able to buy better, that’s an almost universal truth and health services shouldn’t be different
 
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Just had a patient from the mountains of British Columbia drive 4-5 hours to see me. Pudendal Neuralgia. Waited 10 months for a Gyn consult who ordered pudendal nerve blocks, and then she was told she had to wait another 7 months for the pudendal nerve blocks. But the gynecologist forgot to submit the request until she checked 2 months later, so that pushed the block wait time to 9 months. So that is 19 months of waiting for a simple nerve block. She drove to see me and had a consult and pudendal nerve blocks the same day. She was so happy with the Canadian socialize system, let me tell you. Just singing its praises.

pudendal neuralgia ain't gonna kill ya, talk to a Canadian or European with a life threatening illness or traumatic event and you'll hear a much different perspective. waiting times for elective procedures aren't much better for medicaid and managed care plans in the US.
how many Medicaid pudendal neuralgia cases have you taken in the past 10 years? I would bet 0 unless they paid cash like this lady did.
 
pudendal neuralgia ain't gonna kill ya, talk to a Canadian or European with a life threatening illness or traumatic event and you'll hear a much different perspective. waiting times for elective procedures aren't much better for medicaid and managed care plans in the US.
how many Medicaid pudendal neuralgia cases have you taken in the past 10 years? I would bet 0 unless they paid cash like this lady did.
This isn't universal, but many doctors lose money on Medicaid.

For example, the standard office visit code 99213 in my state pays $35. I can see at most 4 patients/hour. $140/hour gross. Let's say I run leaner than the national average for family doctors at 4 staff per doctor. And let's say I low ball them at $15/hour no benefits. We're down to $80/hour. Based on my rent when I was in PP office space runs, assuming 22 working days per month with 8 working hours per day, $28/hour. So we're down to $52/hour. FM malpractice assuming 264 working days/year around $5/hour. So we're down to $47/hour. Let's say for the sake of argument that everything else - EMR, worker's comp, general liability insurance, internet, supplies, everything is just $10/hour. We're down to $37/hour seeing Medicaid. That's $37/hour really low balling some numbers.
 
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pudendal neuralgia ain't gonna kill ya, talk to a Canadian or European with a life threatening illness or traumatic event and you'll hear a much different perspective. waiting times for elective procedures aren't much better for medicaid and managed care plans in the US.
how many Medicaid pudendal neuralgia cases have you taken in the past 10 years? I would bet 0 unless they paid cash like this lady did.

I've taken no Medicaid patients in the past ten years. I literally loose money seeing medicaid patients.
 
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I've taken no Medicaid patients in the past ten years. I literally loose money seeing medicaid patients.

The only way to make any money on Medicaid is through a site of service differential, wrap-around-fees, or juicy capitated payer contracts. Unfortunately, these mechanisms are not readily available options for independent private practice doctors. But, "non-profit" hospitals/physician employers clean up on Medicaid because they claim the loss of revenue (based upon charges not collections) as a "community benefit" and take a tax write-off.

While the nominally non-profit hospitals and MD/DO employers get a tax-break for seeing Medicaid patients and "mark-to-market" their losses as a "community benefit," the private practice/small business owner doctors just have to eat the loss and risk going out of business. You can be busy all day seeing chronic pain Medicaid patients and still go broke. Why not just "means test" the tax exemption for all practitioners and physician employers who see Medicaid patients? If @Ligament "does his part" in his community and sees 5% Medicaid in his practice as a service to humanity, then he should claim the loss as a business write-off on his taxes...just like the large physician employers do...

Opinion: Striking A New Bargain for Oregon Hospital Community Benefit Programs | The Lund Report
 
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Willing to pay more always means you end up able to buy better, that’s an almost universal truth and health services shouldn’t be different

yes they should
 
But you are dragging a large sum from my paycheck that I don’t want to pay

that is a reasonable complaint. you are already paying more with the progressive tax system. i guess it is just where society places its priorities. right now it seems to be a gigantic department of defense and a border wall, but i digress...
 
yes they should
I may be confused here, but you're the same person who has said this, right...

it'd be like medicaid, but worse and with more restrictions. but, it'd be free.

and yes, MOST people wouldnt be happy with it. but they would accept it b/c they dont have to pay for it. you want better coverage, show me the money.

you are certainly raising legitimate questions. the point of the meme was to highlight how much of a moonbat rand paul is. nobody is dragging you out of your house if there is public healthcare (besides your neighbor because you refuse to trim the hedge going into his yard).

unless we, as a society, are willing to accept that a public option will essentially be crappy and you have to pay for a cadillac plan, there will continue to be a lot of unhappy people on both sides of this equation.
 
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The only way to make any money on Medicaid is through a site of service differential, wrap-around-fees, or juicy capitated payer contracts. Unfortunately, these mechanisms are not readily available options for independent private practice doctors. But, "non-profit" hospitals/physician employers clean up on Medicaid because they claim the loss of revenue (based upon charges not collections) as a "community benefit" and take a tax write-off.

While the nominally non-profit hospitals and MD/DO employers get a tax-break for seeing Medicaid patients and "mark-to-market" their losses as a "community benefit," the private practice/small business owner doctors just have to eat the loss and risk going out of business. You can be busy all day seeing chronic pain Medicaid patients and still go broke. Why not just "means test" the tax exemption for all practitioners and physician employers who see Medicaid patients? If @Ligament "does his part" in his community and sees 5% Medicaid in his practice as a service to humanity, then he should claim the loss as a business write-off on his taxes...just like the large physician employers do...

Opinion: Striking A New Bargain for Oregon Hospital Community Benefit Programs | The Lund Report

PP docs should not see medicaid patients. the incentives are built in for hospital systems. do you really want to treat medicaid patients in PP anyway? they are money-losers or break even for the big hospitals as well, despite the tax write-offs

 
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I may be confused here, but you're the same person who has said this, right...

yes, i am an enigma wrapped in a riddle.

my point is that health care SHOULD be egalitarian, not based on the size of your bank account. i understand that this utopian deam will likely not materialize, so i have posted what i think is the best answer to the current dilemma.
 
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PP docs should not see medicaid patients. the incentives are built in for hospital systems. do you really want to treat medicaid patients in PP anyway? they are money-losers or break even for the big hospitals as well, despite the tax write-offs



Hmm, tell me about the incentives...

Healthcare Reform Creates Provider Monopolies | The Lund Report

"So, with an increased focus on operational revenue over charity, many charitable health systems parlay the financial benefits of their tax-exempt status into amassing large reserves, higher executive compensation, and lucrative real estate deals instead of providing the charitable care or real community benefit as required by law. These questionable business practices drain needed tax revenue from communities, in effect cheating tax payers and starving municipalities of money for other services."

Why Tax Hospitals? It’s a Medicaid Shell Game


"Providers pay the state. The state pays providers, then collects matching funds from Uncle Sam."
 
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Hmm, tell me about the incentives...

Healthcare Reform Creates Provider Monopolies | The Lund Report

"So, with an increased focus on operational revenue over charity, many charitable health systems parlay the financial benefits of their tax-exempt status into amassing large reserves, higher executive compensation, and lucrative real estate deals instead of providing the charitable care or real community benefit as required by law. These questionable business practices drain needed tax revenue from communities, in effect cheating tax payers and starving municipalities of money for other services."

Why Tax Hospitals? It’s a Medicaid Shell Game


"Providers pay the state. The state pays providers, then collects matching funds from Uncle Sam."

im with you. i think its stupid.
 
i dont think this is bernie's plan, but if it is, there is nothing "misguided" about it. this would be the most fair way to do it. you shouldnt be entitled to better care just because you happen to be rich. right now, that is the way it is, and the way it will continue to be for better or worse
Wait a second, you just said yesterday that if people want better care than the govt provided crappy care, they can pay for it.

You guys keep beating around the bush here, splitting hairs and making contradictory statements.

Should rich people be able to buy better healthcare with their money or not? Yes/no?
 
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Excellent review of "how we got here."

How Government Killed the Medical Profession

“Let them discover the kind of doctors that their system will now produce. Let them discover, in their operating rooms and hospital wards, that it is not safe to place their lives in the hands of a man whose life they have throttled. It is not safe, if he is the sort of man who resents it—and still less safe, if he is the sort who doesn’t.”

Atlas Shrugged
 
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Excellent review of "how we got here."

How Government Killed the Medical Profession

“Let them discover the kind of doctors that their system will now produce. Let them discover, in their operating rooms and hospital wards, that it is not safe to place their lives in the hands of a man whose life they have throttled. It is not safe, if he is the sort of man who resents it—and still less safe, if he is the sort who doesn’t.”

Atlas Shrugged
I don't like his defeated attitude but I like his observations. I'm not willing to let socialists discover that socialism will destroy what is left of the American healthcare system. They will NEVER see it.

Those of us who recognize it have to continue to expose the unintended LONG TERM consequences of Medicare aka "population healthcare" with its codes reporting requirements, etc. These things can only be forced down the throats of docs because Medicare has such an enormous market share. This is what I hate about socialist ideas corrupting the free market.

A closed system like the VA, although inefficient, at least didn't force private docs to use ICD, CPT, EHR, MU1, MU2, etc, etc.. There should be a code somewhere that gives socialists latitude in creating programs on the condition that they are somewhat encapsulated and don't interfere with free enterprise. Like, sure, go ahead and create a universal healthcare system but don't involve any private docs.
 
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yes they should
Nope
that is a reasonable complaint. you are already paying more with the progressive tax system. i guess it is just where society places its priorities. right now it seems to be a gigantic department of defense and a border wall, but i digress...
false choice equivalency

You present a choice of seize my money to buy bloated govt health care for other or seize my money to buy a bloated military and border project when the best answer is seize less of my money
 
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