Canadian Citizen, US MD....

[Jess8000]

hey everyone,

I'm a bit confused about coming to US and returning to Canada, but first, a bit about me...

I have an undergrad degree in Biochemistry from an Ontario University and applied to Canadian and US med schools. Unfortunately, I've already been rejected from Canada, but do hold an allopathic MD acceptance from SUNY Downstate in New York. I'm a Canadian Citizen and US Permanent resident.

My question is, when looking for residency after completing med school in the US, will I be at a disadvantage when trying to go back to Canada? I searched through the other threads, and couldn't tell if IMG includes US schools or just Australia, Poland, UK, Carib, etc. I also looked over the CaRMS page and the stats for matching, but I can't put it all together.

If someone could please provide me some honest, blunt answers I would be very grateful.

Thank you!!

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[redshifteffect]

hey everyone,

I'm a bit confused about coming to US and returning to Canada, but first, a bit about me...

I have an undergrad degree in Biochemistry from an Ontario University and applied to Canadian and US med schools. Unfortunately, I've already been rejected from Canada, but do hold an allopathic MD acceptance from SUNY Downstate in New York. I'm a Canadian Citizen and US Permanent resident.

My question is, when looking for residency after completing med school in the US, will I be at a disadvantage when trying to go back to Canada? I searched through the other threads, and couldn't tell if IMG includes US schools or just Australia, Poland, UK, Carib, etc. I also looked over the CaRMS page and the stats for matching, but I can't put it all together.

If someone could please provide me some honest, blunt answers I would be very grateful.

Thank you!!

A US Med degree puts you in the first round of CaRMs and not as an IMG, so you will not be at any disadvantage when doing your degree in the US.

The only potential disadvantage you may have is if you complete your residency in the US. Not all US residencies are considered equivalent to their Canadian counterparts, so you might have to speak to the Royal College of Surgeons first before you commence any residency in the US, or better yet simply do your residency in Canada.

 

[JoeNamaMD]

The only disadvantage will be that you will have to complete the USMLE Steps 1 and 2 which will take time away from writing the Canadian examinations. Most US medical schools will require you to pass the US exams to move onto clinicals and to graduate. One of my college RAs was rejected by Downstate and a number of US schools but got into a school in Canada in Newfoundland, he is American and his situation is a reverse of yours.

 

[Jess8000]

Thanks for the replies guys!

Would it be recommended that I try to do the Canadian exams while I am studying at a US medical school?

I realize that this will require huge time management, but I thought I'd ask in case you guys can make some suggestions.

Any other tips? Thanks very much!!

 

[jshcan]

Thanks for the replies guys!

Would it be recommended that I try to do the Canadian exams while I am studying at a US medical school?

I realize that this will require huge time management, but I thought I'd ask in case you guys can make some suggestions.

Any other tips? Thanks very much!!

you really should look up on the royal college of physicians/surgeons website for each province to determine the requirements depending on your medical school accreditation. i believe that for ontario, passing all three steps (1, 2ck, 2cs, and 3) are equivalent to the mccee and mcqee, but i can't remember exactly. i do recall reading this stuff on their website though. of course, keep in mind that in four years lots can change, and much of the process now for canadians in us med schools was very different and much harder just 4 years ago.
also, keep in mind that while you can enter carms in the first iteration as a us med student, you cannot quantify if/how much stigma PDs and chairs will have against you as a cdn from a us med school. beyond even stigma, they will be very umfamiliar with the us med school's reputation and quality (unless it is a top school). i knew someone above me at my med school here in the us who was canadian who was told by many cdn programs that they didn't care that he was from a us school. he ultimately matched in canada. but i also know of someone else trying to go back who encountered more probs (it was also a more comp specialty).

 

[Jess8000]

OK, things are getting a bit messy. I've emailed individual schools, CaRMS, and the RCPS.

I've told them how I am a Canadian citizen, and in a few years will hopefully have a US MD degree.

The Asst Dean of Postgrad studies from U Sask told me that I would not eligible for the first round with CaRMS. I figure she's thinking that US MDs are IMG. I always thought that IMG doesn't include US MDs. (???)

Then there's CaRMS whose telling me that as long as my school is accredited, which it is, I'm in the first round-- which is what I thought also.

As for RCPS, they said they don't know anything about matching in residency and I have to contact CaRMS and every med school to be sure.

Also, CaRMS hasn't gotten back to me yet about having to write the Canadian licensing exams. Do you guys know if I'd have to, or would my USMLE's substitute? But CaRMS did tell me that in 2007 ~65% of Canadians matched to their first choice, whereas ~55% of US MD's matched to their first choice.

Redshift and JoeNamaMD-- what you guys said should still hold, but does my status as IMG change per school? The message from USask is confusing me.

I'm trying to get my head around all this and more pointers would be great. Thanks guys.

Aside: according to this pdf http://www.carms.ca/pdfs/2007MatchResults/Applicant_Pool_by_Medical_School_en.pdf only 28 US MD grads applied for residency in Canada and 12 withdrew. Why do you think so few US grads apply to Canada?

 

[M.Furfur]

The Asst Dean of Postgrad studies from U Sask told me that I would not eligible for the first round with CaRMS. I figure she's thinking that US MDs are IMG. I always thought that IMG doesn't include US MDs. (???)

Sask and Newfoundland are the exceptions. US MDs are not eligible for the first round there.

Aside: according to this pdf http://www.carms.ca/pdfs/2007MatchResults/Applicant_Pool_by_Medical_School_en.pdf only 28 US MD grads applied for residency in Canada and 12 withdrew. Why do you think so few US grads apply to Canada?

When you apply to both matches you are automatically withdrawn once you match in the earliest one , which is usually the american hence 12 withdrew. The rest either didn't match in the states or just didn't apply.

Why so few US meds apply? well because the number of spots in the Canadian match is roughly equivalent to the number of Canadian graduates, which makes it impossible to match in anything competitive as most Canadian schools are very biased towards their own graduates. So if you don't know anyone in Canada you are basically stuck with FM unless you are really lucky or that's what you wanted anyways.

There are way more opportunities in the States also paying a US debt with Canadian salaries might not be the smartest thing to do.

 

[Jess8000]

Sask and Newfoundland are the exceptions. US MDs are not eligible for the first round there.



When you apply to both matches you are automatically withdrawn once you match in the earliest one , which is usually the american hence 12 withdrew. The rest either didn't match in the states or just didn't apply.

Why so few US meds apply? well because the number of spots in the Canadian match is roughly equivalent to the number of Canadian graduates, which makes it impossible to match in anything competitive as most Canadian schools are very biased towards their own graduates. So if you don't know anyone in Canada you are basically stuck with FM unless you are really lucky or that's what you wanted anyways.

There are way more opportunities in the States also paying a US debt with Canadian salaries might not be the smartest thing to do.

Thanks for replying...

Thats what I'm afraid of. I emailed the PostGrad Dean at Queens. She fired back a quick one-liner, telling me I should slow it down and just enjoy med school. She did not address any of my questions whatsoever about biases in matching, US eligibility, additional required examination, etc.

I looked over the stats at CaRMS, and you're right-- while spots do remain after the match, its in things like Internal Med of Family Practice. All the *good* stuff is taken fast, and the more popular programs have very few spots to begin with.

Is there any way to do rotations or electives in Canada, meet the Faculty or that sort of thing during medical school so you can form a lasting impression and try to get your foot in the door?

 

[M.Furfur]

Im exactly in the same situation as you and I'm freaking out already even that I haven't started med school yet.
Those IM positions tht are left are all in quebec and in french.
you can do up to 2 months in any given school, however I wouldn't put all my eggs in the same basket and do all my electives in Canada.

 

[Jess8000]

Im exactly in the same situation as you and I'm freaking out already even that I haven't started med school yet.
Those IM positions tht are left are all in quebec and in french.
you can do up to 2 months in any given school, however I wouldn't put all my eggs in the same basket and do all my electives in Canada.

What about summers that you might have off? Is it possible to come back to Canada and do something during this time? Maybe introduce yourself to people and establish something to build on?

BTW how long is Med school summer in the US?

 

[MeowMix]

Why do you think so few US grads apply to Canada?

Because it is so stupidly difficult, confusing, and expensive to figure out the rules and participate in CARMS, as you have found. I just gave up and hoped that by the time I'm done with residency, Canada will have made it even easier. As you are finding out, each province has different rules about who is an IMG and which round of CARMS you go through as a US grad. Ontario accepts USMLE 1/2/3 as equivalent to MCCQE, but you have to be board-certified to be able to skip MCCEE, as far as I can tell.

The Ontario recruiting people I met in Kansas City basically recommended that I should complete my residency in the US and then come to Canada, since that would be so much easier than trying to match through CARMS.

 

[Jess8000]

Because it is so stupidly difficult, confusing, and expensive to figure out the rules and participate in CARMS, as you have found.

Thats part of the fun 😀 No seriously... I have emailed about 30 people so far-- all the PostGrad Deans across Canada, a few people beneath them and the people at CaRMS. It is a little confusing to navigate through it all. I mean, they're telling me to read through 30pg pdfs on the MCC website and decide things. Most really don't want to say what things will be like for me either b/c: a) don't want to admit that there will be discrimination against me or b) say just wait and see what happens in 4yrs. Fine.

I just gave up and hoped that by the time I'm done with residency, Canada will have made it even easier. As you are finding out, each province has different rules about who is an IMG and which round of CARMS you go through as a US grad. Ontario accepts USMLE 1/2/3 as equivalent to MCCQE, but you have to be board-certified to be able to skip MCCEE, as far as I can tell.

Right on both counts...PGY deans tell me that I'm asking questions way above my paygrade and maturity level. I need to slow down with the "how can I come back to Canada". The people at CaRMS told me that if we want to go back to Canada, we'll have to write the MCCEE1. I don't really mind. A couple more tests to expand opportunities is not to bad.

The Ontario recruiting people I met in Kansas City basically recommended that I should complete my residency in the US and then come to Canada, since that would be so much easier than trying to match through CARMS.

As for completing residency then going back to Canada, there's still complications with the licensing and some other exams, IIRC.Also, you have to worry about the point of no return. Or at least, diminishing point of return. But who am I to speak if the Ontario recruiting group told you so.

Sucks to be us. Frikkin Canada!! Definitely a love hate roller-coaster.