Canadian MDs experience rapid rise in salary

[Aphid]

MD incomes have increased astronomically in canada in the last 10 years. The MDs have very low overheads (%5-20%) as most of their costs are covered by the government. Their malpractice is also subsidized by the government...so a cardiothoracic surgeon may only pay $5000/year in malpractice insurance. Most family physicans have no problem taking home $250-300k/year. Some of them even bill $800,000k and above if they work in rural areas. No private insurance companies means no discounts. Also, the government will pay what you bill for, no questions asked. Hence there's very little paperwork and politics involved. There was a article in the paper the other day reporting that 90% of opthomologists in Canada made over $1 million in 2009. Why are the MD pay decreasing the states?

Here's list of $$ paid to physicans in BC in 2010....pretty crazy since all hospital based physicans have no overheads! (secretary, nurses are all paid for by the government)

http://www.health.gov.bc.ca/msp/legi...uebook2010.pdf

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[TheMan21]

seriously though, what's the catch?

 

[justaregularmed]

Now if only they could work on that 43% tax rate on incomes above 127k in BC. Oh and the 12% sales tax. So with overhead i need to take out 47%-63%?

So to make 250k I need to bill 440k-680k! fun times.

Again why wouldn't they mind paying doctors...they get it all back in the end anyway.

 

[Aphid]

Now if only they could work on that 43% tax rate on incomes above 127k in BC. Oh and the 12% sales tax. So with overhead i need to take out 47%-63%?

So to make 250k I need to bill 440k-680k! fun times.

Again why wouldn't they mind paying doctors...they get it all back in the end anyway.

The canadian government has allowed MDs to incorporate, so they only pay 18% business tax and can pay themselves a salary. Also, all overhead expenses can be written off and are tax deductible. In the end, I would expect them to pay around 30% of their income in tax. Similar to most states i believe. To make 250k as a family physican, you only need to bill out 300k. That's not a bad deal.

 

[WellWornLad]

seriously though, what's the catch?

You have to live in Canada?

Just kiddin' Canada, you know I love you.

 

[DoctwoB]

The canadian government has allowed MDs to incorporate, so they only pay 18% business tax and can pay themselves a salary. Also, all overhead expenses can be written off and are tax deductible. In the end, I would expect them to pay around 30% of their income in tax. Similar to most states i believe. To make 250k as a family physican, you only need to bill out 300k. That's not a bad deal.

Admittedly I know very little about tax law, especially Canadian tax law, so correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't incorporating and paying yourself a salary mean more taxation? You would pay the business tax, and then income taxes on the "salary" that you pay yourself.

 

[bonsaitree1]

. There was a article in the paper the other day reporting that 90% of opthomologists in Canada made over $1 million in 2009. Why are the MD pay decreasing the states?
]

What paper/day was that? I'd like to read it.

 

[hrandani]

I seem to recall it's nearly impossible to immigrate to Canada as a physician. Maybe that's why they can name their own price.

 

[switcheroo]

I seem to recall it's nearly impossible to immigrate to Canada as a physician. Maybe that's why they can name their own price.

This. We're really picky. Can't come to med school in Canada if you're not a citizen/permanent resident, either. Not 100% sure why we're so stringent, given the physician shortage. In any case, I would suspect this has a lot to do with the income thing.

 

[Obnoxious Dad]

Admittedly I know very little about tax law, especially Canadian tax law, so correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't incorporating and paying yourself a salary mean more taxation? You would pay the business tax, and then income taxes on the "salary" that you pay yourself.

The corporation would deduct the physician's salary as a business expense which would prevent the double tax.

The U.S. Internal Revenue Code plugged the incorporated physician loophole long ago. Professional Service Corporations that are taxed as Sub-chapter C Corporations in the U.S. pay at a high flat rate. There are some advantages to being a C Corporation but a lower marginal rate isn't one of them.

 

[Obnoxious Dad]

This. We're really picky. Can't come to med school in Canada if you're not a citizen/permanent resident, either. Not 100% sure why we're so stringent, given the physician shortage. In any case, I would suspect this has a lot to do with the income thing.

Every year Wayne State University med school will take 17 - 20 Canadians while thousands of qualified American applicants get shut out. The Canadians reciprocate by telling us how are health care system is stupid. Makes sense to me.🙄

 

[kdburton]

I seem to recall it's nearly impossible to immigrate to Canada as a physician. Maybe that's why they can name their own price.

I'm not sure what the whole process entails, but I live about 5 miles away from Canada and there are billboards here where they are recruiting doctors from the US to come practice in Canada. I can't imagine they'd be advertising that here if it was so hard to make the move.

 

[meister]

If I wanted to be a PCP then having the chance to go to a place where I never had to think about 57 different insurance companies and the various and sundry ways they were all trying to screw me and the patient daily would be priceless. At least in Canada you can just focus on the one!

I seem to recall it's nearly impossible to immigrate to Canada as a physician. Maybe that's why they can name their own price.

I seriously doubt that's the case.

 

[islandCrazy]

American trained physicians can easily come to Canada, as long as the residency program matched up in terms of years. Also there is a separate pathway for doctors when it comes to immigration.

OMNI channel has a documentary about the pathway, it was on youtube awhile ago but I can't find now.

 

[J ROD]

well played!! 👍

 

[bomgd3]

Plus think of how much healthier and more attractive Canadians are! Spending day in and day out seeing overweight/obese patients =/= how I want to spend my career.

 

[muhali3]

I lived in Canada until I was 10...thinking of going back now given this info.

 

[hrandani]

Eh. Long story, but part of my time in Canada was spent with an immigrant population, probably 20 of which were formerly fully trained doctors, and they were specifically recruited to immigrate to Canada to be physicians, then were not allowed to do anything other than drive cabs / open restaurants. This was a long time ago, but I still remember they were pretty bitter about it and I sincerely doubt they were making it up.

My experience with Canadians who went to get medical training abroad (non-US) was also along those lines. It's nearly impossible for them to go back and at the time the only way to obtain licensure from the medical board required several years of penance in one of the frozen north states.

If anybody has direct experience otherwise, by all means, tell us about it.

 

[clifftacopter]

I've done some research into it, as I have a lot of family in Canada and wouldn't mind possibly settling down there. It's actually very easy to practice medicine in Canada IF you have an American medical license. Canada recognizes physician training in the US (so long as the years are equal in length, which is rarely a problem... and even if they aren't, provinces like Ontario allow special pathways for American-trained physicians).

The issue with foreign-trained doctors coming to Canada and having to be taxi drivers is exclusively a problem for doctors trained in countries like India. If you do an American residency it's absolutely nothing to worry about. Canada has a fairly severe physician shortage and they want you badly.

 

[IlDestriero]

I've done some research into it, as I have a lot of family in Canada and wouldn't mind possibly settling down there. It's actually very easy to practice medicine in Canada IF you have an American medical license. Canada recognizes physician training in the US (so long as the years are equal in length, which is rarely a problem... and even if they aren't, provinces like Ontario allow special pathways for American-trained physicians).

The issue with foreign-trained doctors coming to Canada and having to be taxi drivers is exclusively a problem for doctors trained in countries like India. If you do an American residency it's absolutely nothing to worry about. Canada has a fairly severe physician shortage and they want you badly.

This is correct. Anesthesia residency is a year longer there, but you're good if you did a fellowship. I consider Canada as a possible fall back. Australia as well.

 

[Aphid]

I see forums here posting that primary care physicians in the states make 150k. That's unheard of up here. If you have a MD, you WILL make 250k....unless you choose not to work 40h/week. All of the specialist I shadowed (nephrologist, gastro, ent, anaesthesia) made over 700k/year (physican salaries are fully disclosed to the public). Their overhead is a whopping 5% as they are hospital based. And, none of them worked more than 45h/week. I remember the nephrologist told me that everytime he picks up the phone for a consult, he can bill 68$. If he physically goes to see the patient, he bills 145$. Not bad for 5 min of work.

 

[muhali3]

I see forums here posting that primary care physicians in the states make 150k. That's unheard of up here. If you have a MD, you WILL make 250k....unless you choose not to work 40h/week. All of the specialist I shadowed (nephrologist, gastro, ent, anaesthesia) made over 700k/year (physican salaries are fully disclosed to the public). Their overhead is a whopping 5% as they are hospital based. And, none of them worked more than 45h/week. I remember the nephrologist told me that everytime he picks up the phone for a consult, he can bill 68$. If he physically goes to see the patient, he bills 145$. Not bad for 5 min of work.

This is ridonkulous if true. One could work part-time over the summer and be on vacation in the States for the rest of the year.

 

[gravitywave]

This is ridonkulous if true. One could work part-time over the summer and be on vacation in the States for the rest of the year.

eh, you might want to consider that, even if it is true, they are giving a hefty proportion of that back in taxes.

 

[DrMidlife]

Yeah but the Canadian dollar...wait...when did the Canadian dollar hit 1:1 to the US dollar? I completely missed that.

 

[muhali3]

Yeah but the Canadian dollar...wait...when did the Canadian dollar hit 1:1 to the US dollar? I completely missed that.

they're pretty much equivalent...1 USD is .9917 CAD. and there have been a few times when the CAD surpassed the USD in value.

 

[csiew]

My friend's uncle is an OB-GYN in a hospital in downtown Toronto. He shares his rented hospital space with another OB-GYN and they have a couple exam rooms, a receptionist, and they rent their equipment from the hospital. They share all the costs so their overhead is very minimal.

He works 6 months and then vacations for the other 6 months, and he is still making a lot. Though I'm not sure how many hours he puts in during his working 6 months because he is on call and stuff. Sounds like a good gig to me.

 

[DrMidlife]

they're pretty much equivalent...1 USD is .9917 CAD. and there have been a few times when the CAD surpassed the USD in value.

Back when I used to go to Whistler all the time (the 90's), a US dollar bought 1.25 to 1.50 Canadian dollars.

Which slowly declined until 2007 when the rate hit 1:1. If you look at 20 years or so of exchange rates, and you decide that past performance is relevant, then Canadian salary deltas are considerably less interesting.

Canadians, on the other hand, are always interesting. Curling and Cirque du Soleil and politeness oh my.

 

[GroovyMed]

.

 

[petyr_baelish]

How long does the special immigration pathway take for Americans with an American residency?

 

[CanuckDDS]

But would you really want your kids to grow up in... Cananda??

Kidding, of course. Thanks for the post OP. Interesting indeed.

Heaven forbid! They may develop manners and an ability to read😛

Kidding of course...just a response to a pointless post.

 

[Handsome88]

seriously though, what's the catch?

Here's the catch, you have to bust your *** 300% more than the average US MD in order to get into med school. Oh and if your an IMG? Too bad then you're screwed regardless of how much ***-busting you do.

Oh and you have to live in an igloo 5 months a year. 😛

 

[bonsaitree1]

Can someone find an article from the OP's post?

There was a article in the paper the other day reporting that 90% of opthomologists in Canada made over $1 million in 2009.

I've tried Googling, but nothing came up.

 

[bongobingo]

This is correct. Anesthesia residency is a year longer there, but you're good if you did a fellowship. I consider Canada as a possible fall back. Australia as well.

what about the other specialties? I assume IM+specialty is easy, i.e. endocrinology would be equivalent. But what about ER? It's 3yrs versus 5 in canada. And they allow canadian FM to work in ER by doing 2+1. But where does american ER residency fit in? How do you get canadian board eligibility after training in the u.s.?

 

[bongobingo]

eh, you might want to consider that, even if it is true, they are giving a hefty proportion of that back in taxes.

lol.

 

[bongobingo]

I see forums here posting that primary care physicians in the states make 150k. That's unheard of up here. If you have a MD, you WILL make 250k....unless you choose not to work 40h/week. All of the specialist I shadowed (nephrologist, gastro, ent, anaesthesia) made over 700k/year (physican salaries are fully disclosed to the public). Their overhead is a whopping 5% as they are hospital based. And, none of them worked more than 45h/week. I remember the nephrologist told me that everytime he picks up the phone for a consult, he can bill 68$. If he physically goes to see the patient, he bills 145$. Not bad for 5 min of work.

If this is true and as another poster said it's easy to immigrate to canada, then why isn't every american Nephrologis or Endocrinologist moving there? It's a well-known fact that in usa the numbers are not even close and it's not even easy to find a job in a desirable city in a specialty like Nephrology.

 

[DoctwoB]

If this is true and as another poster said it's easy to immigrate to canada, then why isn't every american Nephrologis or Endocrinologist moving there? It's a well-known fact that in usa the numbers are not even close and it's not even easy to find a job in a desirable city in a specialty like Nephrology.

The same reason that people don't flock to rural areas for the higher pay. They would rather live where they are familiar, near family, etc. True free market predictions means no barriers to migration, and this includes emotional barriers.