Canadian newbie to the DO idea with many questions

[PhysioMD]

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Hello,

I'm a Canadian kid who is realizing that my chances of going to the MD program at Harvard or Yale or Toronto are basically non existent 😀. (JOking, I did also apply to MANY other programs). I think my just "almost average GPA" and just below 30 MCAT are what's killing me.
I was given advice to think about DO schools and was told this route allows me to try for residency match...which I couldn't quite believe. I apologize for my lack of knowledge but I am basically in shock at the idea that this sounds like a back door into med?

Anyway, I don't want to offend anyone. My idea of osteopathy was basically somewhere along the lines of advanced physical therapy/chiro and I'm stunned that in the USA it prepares people for the USMLE and potentially a career in ER or surgery.

I want to get as much accurate information as possible, so if anyone can point me towards accurate resources I would really appreciate that. My qustions are as follows:

1. First, is DO recognized across the entire USA? Canada? UK?
2. Can DOs write the USMLE and apply to ANY residency program? - could a DO become a cardiovascular surgeon? an ER doc? What do docs call themselves "DO" or "MD" once you are working as a surgeon or in the ER.
3. Why is this program suddenly so recognized and allowed to compete with the allos for residency?
4. Are all DO programs equal? If someone intends to enter medical residency are some schools better suited for that?
5. At the end of the day..if they study the same things what is the huge difference? why is there this lack of recognition?

The idea to advance my own skills while working towards a medical career is actually quite attractive. I cannot believe we know so little about this path in Canada, I honestly have never met any DO.

I just have so many questions, if anyone is willing to take a few minutes for a private message to answer more of my questions that would be fantastic.

 

[PhysioMD]

oops double post

 

[costales]

The list of search results for "canadian d.o."/"osteopathic canadians" is 12 pages.

 

[PhysioMD]

Great I'm reading through them. Figured someone familiar with the program or a happy practicing DO can answer 1 or 2 of my questions or shed a bit of light.

 

[kenjixshadow]

You're a 2 years member with 130 posts and you never heard of DO or bother to use the search button to find the answers to your questions? Unbelievable.

 

[PhysioMD]

Nope no offense meant. Was always interested in traditional med, esp since DO is not recognized where I live.

 

[TOKOY90]

http://studentdo.ca/
Or canadian osteopathic students on fb


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[DrMikeP]

Hello,

I'm a Canadian kid who is realizing that my chances of going to the MD program at Harvard or Yale or Toronto are basically non existent 😀. (JOking, I did also apply to MANY other programs). I think my just "almost average GPA" and just below 30 MCAT are what's killing me.
I was given advice to think about DO schools and was told this route allows me to try for residency match...which I couldn't quite believe. I apologize for my lack of knowledge but I am basically in shock at the idea that this sounds like a back door into med?

Anyway, I don't want to offend anyone. My idea of osteopathy was basically somewhere along the lines of advanced physical therapy/chiro and I'm stunned that in the USA it prepares people for the USMLE and potentially a career in ER or surgery.

I want to get as much accurate information as possible, so if anyone can point me towards accurate resources I would really appreciate that. My qustions are as follows:

1. First, is DO recognized across the entire USA? Canada? UK?
2. Can DOs write the USMLE and apply to ANY residency program? - could a DO become a cardiovascular surgeon? an ER doc? What do docs call themselves "DO" or "MD" once you are working as a surgeon or in the ER.
3. Why is this program suddenly so recognized and allowed to compete with the allos for residency?
4. Are all DO programs equal? If someone intends to enter medical residency are some schools better suited for that?
5. At the end of the day..if they study the same things what is the huge difference? why is there this lack of recognition?

The idea to advance my own skills while working towards a medical career is actually quite attractive. I cannot believe we know so little about this path in Canada, I honestly have never met any DO.

I just have so many questions, if anyone is willing to take a few minutes for a private message to answer more of my questions that would be fantastic.

Your questions have been answered dozens or even hundreds of times on SDN and elsewhere like AACOM website's faqs. It's kind of like at your age asking how to write a check, you'll get lots of look it ups. Med school depends a lot on self-learning, so do your research and ask more critical questions.

To answer first question on each # as I know little about overseas other than it varies greatly for DO.

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Not so suddenly
4. No (but you likely won't have lots of choices so you accept what you get)
5. Not a lot of difference and recognition varies in the US.

 

[PhysioMD]

thanks again, no offense meant, just been really busy and thought someone might wanna just jump in and answer quickly - I can do my own research but at the same time sometimes people on here are around to drop some advice or answer questions

 

[DrMikeP]

thanks again, no offense meant, just been really busy and thought someone might wanna just jump in and answer quickly - I can do my own research but at the same time sometimes people on here are around to drop some advice or answer questions

No offense taken, best of luck

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[Dustbowl12]

DO and MD are indistinguishable degrees and both are fully licensed physicians in the US.

Your confusion comes from the root osteo, osteopaths are not the same thing as osteopathic physicians.

Both recieve the same training and have the same curriculum. The only difference is that allopathic (MD) students don't learn OMM while osteopathic (DO) are trained in it.

As of now MDs can not apply to DO residencies but DOs can apply to MD residencies. You are free to choose whatever specialty you want. There are DO neurosurg, ortho, plastics, derm, etc residencies. Regardless of MD or DO it is harder to get a residency in a competitive field

Additionally- DO and MD residencies are merging and by 2020 all will be under the same accrediting body, allowing MDs to apply to former DO residencies.

Also, some MD programs have a "bias" against DO students. This however practically doesn't really make a difference except for a few specific programs for specific things.

advice- if you apply to DO programs without being able to show your understanding of "DO philosophy" by words or experience you will have a tough time getting in

 

[argle_bargle]

To second the poster above me, if you're considering DO it would be wise to shadow a DO and witness some use of OMM. However, once a physician you don't need to use OMM if that's not what youre' interested in. I worked with several emergency medicine DOs at a UC teaching hospital in California for several years and never once saw them use OMM. Conversely, there are DOs who only use OMM in their practice. But just know you will be required to learn OMM if you attend a DO school.

 

[kingston77]

Also, do a bit searching into the different "medical degrees" that are recognized with the ability to work as a physician. Not everyone in the world has an MD (its just the most common). MBBS and US DO degrees seem to be equivalent in terms of practice rights (i.e., can practice MEDICINE to the extent) as someone with an MD degree.

 

[PhysioMD]

Thank you so much I really appreciate all this advice. So I guess once you work with patients you just introduce yourself as "doctor" anyway. I'm really surprised at the amazing variety of specialties that students can take in the USA. I wonder now why people choose paths in PT, chiro, DO...it seems like DO teaches many similar skills to MSK PT or chiro but the added advantage of the opportunity for medical practice.
Personally, I would like to keep doors open to work in surgery (ortho or maybe plastics even though that is tough to get into) or ER or FM - I know varied list but I have some interest in chronic disease but also like the faster pace of ER and the hands on component of surgery. Does anyone know if it is realistic to match into a) ER b) Family med c) ortho surgery d) plastic surgery as a DO grad? again is there any preference on part of those specialties for DO or MD?
Lastly, as you need to learn these extra OMT skills in DO, does the time / practice needed to succeed in exams for these at all impact study time for USMLE?
Does anyone have a link for how DO students do on USMLE compared to MD?

I am reading so much right now about DO and it is really mind blowing! My lack of knowledge stems from the fact that I'm north of the border. Asked about 5-6 people today (friends and coworkers) and none could tell me what DO is so that shows how recognized it is here. I've had PT and chiro treatments done to myself over the years, both very impressive and successful, but never came across anything similar to DO

 

[TOKOY90]

Thank you so much I really appreciate all this advice. So I guess once you work with patients you just introduce yourself as "doctor" anyway. I'm really surprised at the amazing variety of specialties that students can take in the USA. I wonder now why people choose paths in PT, chiro, DO...it seems like DO teaches many similar skills to MSK PT or chiro but the added advantage of the opportunity for medical practice.
Personally, I would like to keep doors open to work in surgery (ortho or maybe plastics even though that is tough to get into) or ER or FM - I know varied list but I have some interest in chronic disease but also like the faster pace of ER and the hands on component of surgery. Does anyone know if it is realistic to match into a) ER b) Family med c) ortho surgery d) plastic surgery as a DO grad? again is there any preference on part of those specialties for DO or MD?
Lastly, as you need to learn these extra OMT skills in DO, does the time / practice needed to succeed in exams for these at all impact study time for USMLE?
Does anyone have a link for how DO students do on USMLE compared to MD?

I am reading so much right now about DO and it is really mind blowing! My lack of knowledge stems from the fact that I'm north of the border. Asked about 5-6 people today (friends and coworkers) and none could tell me what DO is so that shows how recognized it is here. I've had PT and chiro treatments done to myself over the years, both very impressive and successful, but never came across anything similar to DO

Check the DO schools and their match lists to get a sense how people match. Overall, it is a little harder to match as a DO than MD but in most cases it is up to you (boards, connections, research) whether you make it or not, be it ent, plastics etc. Actually had two DO canadians this year who matched ent. I am from KCU and we usually have around 8 studs who go into ortho/neurosurg per class. Emergency medicine is pretty welcoming to DOs, so if you get "average" boards you should be fine to match. Family and IM are the most popular, but i was surprised how many students in my class actually want to go into FM, even though they do well in classes etc, so i feel that this skewiness towards the primary care for DOs at least for 50% is personal preference. Overall, more competetive specialties ent, optho etc prefer mds, so you are set to a little bit higher standards a s a do to match in those, but whether you make it or not depends on YOU.
Learning OMM demands some time, but it is not overwhelming. However, probably depends on the school to school basis since some of the schools are heavy on it.
About 2/3 of the class take usmle, and they always post only the pass rates make you assume the average is little bit lower than the national usmle ave, but there are students making into 250s etc so it is all up to you, how you study, what resources you use and your test taking skills.


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[DrMikeP]

Thank you so much I really appreciate all this advice. So I guess once you work with patients you just introduce yourself as "doctor" anyway. I'm really surprised at the amazing variety of specialties that students can take in the USA. I wonder now why people choose paths in PT, chiro, DO...it seems like DO teaches many similar skills to MSK PT or chiro but the added advantage of the opportunity for medical practice.
Personally, I would like to keep doors open to work in surgery (ortho or maybe plastics even though that is tough to get into) or ER or FM - I know varied list but I have some interest in chronic disease but also like the faster pace of ER and the hands on component of surgery. Does anyone know if it is realistic to match into a) ER b) Family med c) ortho surgery d) plastic surgery as a DO grad? again is there any preference on part of those specialties for DO or MD?
Lastly, as you need to learn these extra OMT skills in DO, does the time / practice needed to succeed in exams for these at all impact study time for USMLE?
Does anyone have a link for how DO students do on USMLE compared to MD?

I am reading so much right now about DO and it is really mind blowing! My lack of knowledge stems from the fact that I'm north of the border. Asked about 5-6 people today (friends and coworkers) and none could tell me what DO is so that shows how recognized it is here. I've had PT and chiro treatments done to myself over the years, both very impressive and successful, but never came across anything similar to DO

Different career paths that have some similarities in very limited areas lead to different abilities/outcomes.

To simplify a bit, think of it like taking your car to a place that just changes oil, mufflers, shocks, paints, body shop, etc or to a full service mechanic. All may work on cars but each do different things and have very differing levels of training. If you take your car to the wrong person you might just find they are washing your exhaust out with a garden hose to fix that noise in the engine. lol

Again, Check out the http://www.aacom.org/ website for real info on DO's.

 

[argle_bargle]

You can also check out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osteopathic_medicine_in_Canada and http://www.osteopathic.ca/faq.htm if you are interested in returning to Canada to practice

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Hello,

I'm a Canadian kid who is realizing that my chances of going to the MD program at Harvard or Yale or Toronto are basically non existent 😀. (JOking, I did also apply to MANY other programs). I think my just "almost average GPA" and just below 30 MCAT are what's killing me.
I was given advice to think about DO schools and was told this route allows me to try for residency match...which I couldn't quite believe. I apologize for my lack of knowledge but I am basically in shock at the idea that this sounds like a back door into med?

Anyway, I don't want to offend anyone. My idea of osteopathy was basically somewhere along the lines of advanced physical therapy/chiro and I'm stunned that in the USA it prepares people for the USMLE and potentially a career in ER or surgery.

I want to get as much accurate information as possible, so if anyone can point me towards accurate resources I would really appreciate that. My qustions are as follows:

1. First, is DO recognized across the entire USA? Canada? UK?
2. Can DOs write the USMLE and apply to ANY residency program? - could a DO become a cardiovascular surgeon? an ER doc? What do docs call themselves "DO" or "MD" once you are working as a surgeon or in the ER.
3. Why is this program suddenly so recognized and allowed to compete with the allos for residency?
4. Are all DO programs equal? If someone intends to enter medical residency are some schools better suited for that?
5. At the end of the day..if they study the same things what is the huge difference? why is there this lack of recognition?

The idea to advance my own skills while working towards a medical career is actually quite attractive. I cannot believe we know so little about this path in Canada, I honestly have never met any DO.

I just have so many questions, if anyone is willing to take a few minutes for a private message to answer more of my questions that would be fantastic.

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. DOs have always been able to do this.
4. This is two different questions, some programs are considered "better" than others but all recieve the same training. And all DO programs will place you in a medical residency. Residency is pretty much required to he able to practice medicine in the US.
5. It's more of a prestige thing. In practice there is zero difference.

DO is nothing like PT, Chiro, etc. It is the exact same curriculum as MD with about an extra 200 hours of OMM mixed in.

Getting competative specialties are hard for anyone but slightly more so for DO students, mainly because of the prestige thing and also many DO programs lack access to the associated research and connections necessary for matching those specialties. But every year some people match into these, you need to work your butt off.

Only a handful of DO programs accept internationals. The main one is MSUCOM.

 

[UBC2014]

Sigh. Use the search function.

Your wording is slightly annoying, saying that DOs also have the "option of practicing medicine". The US DO degree IS a medicine degree and no different in 99% of the sense as the US MD or Canadian MD degree. Except an additional 200hrs of OMM.

Two Canadian students graduating from USDO schools matched to ENT Plastic Surgery this year- if that doesn't shut up posts like this, I dont know what will. But because I'm a bit salty, I will say you don't be matching plastics with your search abilities.

Sorry, but not sorry. COMSA has done so much promotion over the last few years and there are plenty of searchable.posts on this forum about canadians studying at US DO schools.

 

[PhysioMD]

Well glad people are happy DO is gaining momentum in Canada, I sure am. Again 9/10 people I speak with (all healthcare people including staff docs, current residents/fellows, premeds) have no clue what DO is or that they practice the same as MD. Attitudes will likely shift over the next several years but it's good to know options exist. I think people need to jump on this path NOW (next 1-2 admissions cycles) though because from what I see in terms of promotion picking up on campuses, this will become the next Plan B for all Canadians (it is ultra competitive up here for MD).

 

[UBC2014]

Well glad people are happy DO is gaining momentum in Canada, I sure am. Again 9/10 people I speak with (all healthcare people including staff docs, current residents/fellows, premeds) have no clue what DO is or that they practice the same as MD. Attitudes will likely shift over the next several years but it's good to know options exist. I think people need to jump on this path NOW (next 1-2 admissions cycles) though because from what I see in terms of promotion picking up on campuses, this will become the next Plan B for all Canadians (it is ultra competitive up here for MD).

People have jumped on this path 30 years ago with the first few Canadian DOs returning to Canada and pioneering the Canadian Osteopathic Association. 10 years ago handfuls went and returned to Canada for residency in fields like Anasthesiology, FM, IM, PM&R etc. , and in larger numbers 6-7 years ago, with the 2014 graduating class having a sizable number and increasing onwards with the class of 2015 and 2016.

Trains already on full-steam and from here on, its just going to get more competitive for Canadians applying USDO.

Luckily there will always be the ones worrying about "DO vs MD" title, who will opt to go to the carribean instead, or too lazy to improve their applications for Canada/US. So there will be spots for those who work hard and want to get a US education.