Canadians going abroad finances

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CanadatoUS2019

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Hey any Canadians considering going abroad?

How're you financing it since the government gives a lifetime loan limit of 175 000 CAD which barely covers half of tuition in most places!

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I have a few friends who went abroad for vet school, and I have no idea how they are funding it lol. I would imagine that they took out personal loans on top of student loans? I've seen some GoFundMes, and I think a couple have fairly wealthy families as well. Personally I think you're best off applying to a Canadian school... significantly cheaper even if you have to move provinces for a while to take up residency for a particular school you are interested in.
 
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I have a few friends who went abroad for vet school, and I have no idea how they are funding it lol. I would imagine that they took out personal loans on top of student loans? I've seen some GoFundMes, and I think a couple have fairly wealthy families as well. Personally I think you're best off applying to a Canadian school... significantly cheaper even if you have to move provinces for a while to take up residency for a particular school you are interested in.

Yeah that's what I figured. I got accepted to a really prestigious university but even bank line of credit on top of Canadian government loans barely covers tuition and not much else.

I don't have a problem moving to another province to gain residency except that I am interested in research and so have a big name behind you still matters somewhat for that as opposed to just practicing as a clinician.
 
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Yeah that's what I figured. I got accepted to a really prestigious university but even bank line of credit on top of Canadian government loans barely covers tuition and not much else.

I don't have a problem moving to another province to gain residency except that I am interested in research and so have a big name behind you still matters somewhat for that as opposed to just practicing as a clinician.

This is probably not what you want to hear, but I don't think having that "prestigious university" behind your name matters all that much in the big scheme of vet school. Coming from someone who also has research experience.

Putting yourself into that much excessive debt just to have that name attached is likely a decision you would come to regret. I'm "only" going to be approximately 68k in debt on graduation from a Canadian school. Even if I project making 80k right out of school (optimistic) I'm concerned about paying that off. Add a few more hundred thousand and I absolutely would not be in this field.

Why do you want to go to vet school if research is your #1 goal? What is your area of interest? (Not saying vet researcher is not good, just getting perspective!)

Also some of the vet schools in Canada have great research programs, mine included. I don't think going to a US school would open any additional doors that going to vet school in Canada and then doing a Masters/PhD at whatever prestigious US school (much cheaper) wouldn't. Except life crushing debt. That door would definitely open.

Also, be careful with student loans. They often won't accept you if you're going to an international school.
 
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Yeah that's what I figured. I got accepted to a really prestigious university but even bank line of credit on top of Canadian government loans barely covers tuition and not much else.

I don't have a problem moving to another province to gain residency except that I am interested in research and so have a big name behind you still matters somewhat for that as opposed to just practicing as a clinician.

I don’t think the prestige of your institution matters as much as you might think... from my understanding it’s more about who you know and what you have done yourself (i.e. having been involved in research before, having published papers already, working on projects in the summers) than what weight your institution carries. This applies for residencies as well.

Besides, the Canadian vet schools do a lot of excellent research. For example, UCVM is very well known for their research, especially in the cattle, emergency critical care and teaching sectors. I would give the Canadian schools a chance :)
 
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Yeah that's what I figured. I got accepted to a really prestigious university but even bank line of credit on top of Canadian government loans barely covers tuition and not much else.

I don't have a problem moving to another province to gain residency except that I am interested in research and so have a big name behind you still matters somewhat for that as opposed to just practicing as a clinician.
Not worth it. At all. Not to mention if you are interested in research (likely meaning you'll need a PhD down the line) taking on that extra debt is going to have a great impact on how much you can really afford to go down the path you want. Pretty much second everything nessie and SAR have said here. The name of the school you go to is not going to carry enough weight to justify all the debt.
 
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Sorry I dont want to cloud up this message with quotes so I'll sort of address everyone.

Aside from the chance that I get a scholarship, there is little chance that I will end up going regardless. I'm not that crazy. Veterinarians dont make enough, and the debt is even worse considering klmy first four years as a vet would be on a PhD stipend. I'll probably move provinces to get a better shot at a school that fits me better.

As to the importance of name, you're right but who you know is significantly affected by where you go.

As to UCVM and its research, I'm not really impressed with the school or its research output, especially when you compare it to UC Davis, Cornell, RVC, NCSU etc. And despite what you said about good output for food animal research my experience as a basic scientist at UCVM was terrible. Basic scientists were looked down upon and treated with less respect by a lot of people.

Being a clinician, the school you graduate from matters little, but I dont think that's the case for clinician scientists.

Edit:

Also I wanted to be a researcher before a veterinarian. In large part I want the clinical foundation so that my research can be applied properly. You often have clinicians that dont know anything about research, and basic scientists who know nothing about clinical work. Clinician scientists bridge that gap.
 
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Sorry I dont want to cloud up this message with quotes so I'll sort of address everyone.

Aside from the chance that I get a scholarship, there is little chance that I will end up going regardless. I'm not that crazy. Veterinarians dont make enough, and the debt is even worse considering klmy first four years as a vet would be on a PhD stipend. I'll probably move provinces to get a better shot at a school that fits me better.

As to the importance of name, you're right but who you know is significantly affected by where you go.

As to UCVM and its research, I'm not really impressed with the school or its research output, especially when you compare it to UC Davis, Cornell, RVC, NCSU etc. And despite what you said about good output for food animal research my experience as a basic scientist at UCVM was terrible. Basic scientists were looked down upon and treated with less respect by a lot of people.

Being a clinician, the school you graduate from matters little, but I dont think that's the case for clinician scientists.

UCVM isn't as big of a school as any of those listed... not by a long shot. We've got what, 280 students between graduates and DVM students? NSCU has 300 DVM students ALONE, not including graduates, RVC has 2300 students according to Wikipedia, etc. So of course we would have a lower research output.

If you want to move elsewhere in Canada for residency, that's fine, but you aren't going to find the research output you desire at the other Canadian vet schools either... UCVM is probably the top veterinary school for research in the country. If doing your DVM at a school with a high research output is that important to you, then be prepared to pay international tuition costs.
 
Sorry I dont want to cloud up this message with quotes so I'll sort of address everyone.

Aside from the chance that I get a scholarship, there is little chance that I will end up going regardless. I'm not that crazy. Veterinarians dont make enough, and the debt is even worse considering klmy first four years as a vet would be on a PhD stipend. I'll probably move provinces to get a better shot at a school that fits me better.

As to the importance of name, you're right but who you know is significantly affected by where you go.

As to UCVM and its research, I'm not really impressed with the school or its research output, especially when you compare it to UC Davis, Cornell, RVC, NCSU etc. And despite what you said about good output for food animal research my experience as a basic scientist at UCVM was terrible. Basic scientists were looked down upon and treated with less respect by a lot of people.

Being a clinician, the school you graduate from matters little, but I dont think that's the case for clinician scientists.

Edit:

Also I wanted to be a researcher before a veterinarian. In large part I want the clinical foundation so that my research can be applied properly. You often have clinicians that dont know anything about research, and basic scientists who know nothing about clinical work. Clinician scientists bridge that gap.
If that is your goal, I do actually recommend doing the PhD first at a place that you you feel fits your research goals, then go for dvm after at the cheapest option. That way you can decide if the PhD is enough, or if it isn't, the DVM is done cheaply and will actually be a little bit of a reprieve from basic science. You could do it vice versa as well, but I will say combined programs are not great if you are looking to do basic science. I would not recommend that, neither would a number of others here like @WhtsThFrequency .
 
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Thanks for the input guys.

I'd rather do the DVM first because it gives you a larger foundation for research. Both clinical and basic.

And I dont mean to harp on UCVM because it outputs great vets, but the OVC definitely has better research, and since I want to do food animals WCVM is probably a better bet for me. Despite UCVMs mandate for research and rural practice, I've had to go outside the faculty to get that experience.

But overall, thank you for echoing the sentiment deep inside me. If I can get a significant scholarship I'll go abroad, if not I'll have to move provinces. Paris of the prairies here we come.
 
Thanks for the input guys.

I'd rather do the DVM first because it gives you a larger foundation for research. Both clinical and basic.

And I dont mean to harp on UCVM because it outputs great vets, but the OVC definitely has better research, and since I want to do food animals WCVM is probably a better bet for me. Despite UCVMs mandate for research and rural practice, I've had to go outside the faculty to get that experience.

But overall, thank you for echoing the sentiment deep inside me. If I can get a significant scholarship I'll go abroad, if not I'll have to move provinces. Paris of the prairies here we come.

Sorry, had to chime in....the DVM gives you essentially zero foundation for basic research (take it from someone who got their DVM and then did an intense basic science PhD). Just as how a basic science PhD would in no way give you a foundation for clinical veterinary medicine, outside of soft skills such as work ethic. Together they can work well (i.e. the clinician-scientist who can see both sides, as you said), but one does not prepare you or give you a foundation for the other.
 
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I think their are research opportunities no matter where you go for vet school in Canada.

WCVM has tons of research going on, and the lab I'm currently employed in has published in some fairly large journals recently. I'm not familiar with OVC or UCVM since I was never going to be attending either of them, but OVC is probably the most "prestigious" of the vet schools in Canada. That being said, OVC is also more difficult to get into than WCVM or UCVM (academically speaking). To my knowledge all 3 of the schools (and yes AVC and Montreal exist, I'm just not focusing on them in this particular post) have the summer student research program.

You don't need to get your PhD where you got your DVM, so if you want the high profile name why not try and go to one of those higher name schools for your graduate work after getting your much cheaper DVM?
 
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Hi guys, when I said vet school gives you a solid foundation for research I did not mean it in the sense that what skills you develop there are necessarily transferable. I mean in my MSc I met veterinarians on massive scholarships doing their PhD that had no idea how to run a clean PCR etc.

But the knowledge you obtain with regards to different animals really allows for translational research to prosper.

As to your question about why not do a PhD after at a different school? That's a fair point, I've really wanted to do a PhD at ETH, which isn't even a veterinary college
 
Hi guys, when I said vet school gives you a solid foundation for research I did not mean it in the sense that what skills you develop there are necessarily transferable. I mean in my MSc I met veterinarians on massive scholarships doing their PhD that had no idea how to run a clean PCR etc.

But the knowledge you obtain with regards to different animals really allows for translational research to prosper.

As to your question about why not do a PhD after at a different school? That's a fair point, I've really wanted to do a PhD at ETH, which isn't even a veterinary college

Eh....I dunno. The amount of current translational research using anything other than rodents, fish, or pigs as an animal model is relatively low. Rodents are cheap and expendable. Pigs are more expensive, but are useful enough that people choose them as well. However, all the rest of the species we study....horses, cows, dogs, cats etc are not cheap at all, and that along with ethical concerns makes them unattractive targets for modeling disease in humans. We can debate the rightness or wrongness of this, but it is what it is. I didn't use a speck of DVM-acquired knowledge throughout all five years of a very "translational" PhD (YMMV of course).

That being said, I promise I'm not trying to pick on you, Canada - I'm really not. As a researchy person myself, I love seeing people in the veterinary field appreciate its value and want to pursue it!

I suppose I'm just tired of the old "vets make great researchers because they know about all sorts of animals" trope that is trotted out by universities, when in reality 1) our breadth of knowledge will never be properly utilized given the current state of the industrial research machine and what models are most popularly used, and 2) our knowledge is primarily clinical and much more applicable to veterinary-specific clinical research....which typically has very low funding opportunity and is plagued by medicore publications due to the low impact factors of veterinary journals.

If you're serious about research, I would follow the $ and the publication track record of a program. Regardless of whether it is a vet school or not. I see people graduating with PhDs from vet school graduate programs with maybe one first author publication. Sometimes none at all, just co-authorships. That is unacceptable and, in the long run, hurts you in the post-doc and job search. It's not necessarily the student's fault either...it is simply the rigor and funding of the program. This doesn't apply to all vet school PhD programs, but it is a definite problem in the ones I have seen and experienced.
 
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If you're serious about research, I would follow the $ and the publication track record of a program. Regardless of whether it is a vet school or not. I see people graduating with PhDs from vet school graduate programs with maybe one first author publication. Sometimes none at all, just co-authorships. That is unacceptable and, in the long run, hurts you in the post-doc and job search. It's not necessarily the student's fault either...it is simply the rigor and funding of the program. This doesn't apply to all vet school PhD programs, but it is a definite problem in the ones I have seen and experienced.

I’m not super well-versed in this, but I can at least say that if you look at the faculty of a university and look at the education of the ones who have both a DVM and a PhD, a lot of them got PhD’s at medical schools, not vet schools. Maybe it depends on what you want to study, and I’m sure you’d know that better than I do, but I figured I would just add to your point. OP, look at those prestigious vet schools and look at where their faculty earned their PhD’s. I’m willing to bet that most of them didn’t get a PhD from a vet school.
 
I’m not super well-versed in this, but I can at least say that if you look at the faculty of a university and look at the education of the ones who have both a DVM and a PhD, a lot of them got PhD’s at medical schools, not vet schools. Maybe it depends on what you want to study, and I’m sure you’d know that better than I do, but I figured I would just add to your point. OP, look at those prestigious vet schools and look at where their faculty earned their PhD’s. I’m willing to bet that most of them didn’t get a PhD from a vet school.

This may depend on their faculty track (which determines your research percentage; people with heavier research backgrounds are *usually* more apt to go tenure-track) as well as research area (basic science vs clinical science). Clinical track faculty may have PhDs in more "veterinary oriented" fields from vet schools, while those with tenure-track positions tend to have them in more basic science areas - because this helps them get the big bucks (i.e. grants) needed for tenure application. And for basic science, many people will opt to do their PhDs are more well-funded institutions with more basic science support. This is by no means an absolute, though.

I will say that most of the DVM/PhDs I have known advised me to do my PhD at a medical school. I feel somewhat traitorous saying that (as I'm sure they did) but it really comes down to funding in many instances. This is not always the case - I do know a good number of very well-funded research faculty at vet schools - however, their labs are typically very basic science focused so it makes sense. NIH doesn't want to shell out money for veterinary research on horses, dogs, cat, etc that may be only tangentially related to human medicine.

Basically it comes down to what you want to do in terms of the funding and rigor of your PhD, as well as what subject matter you choose. Do you want to be a more clinical faculty member who does clinical research on the side, and you are content with lower impact/fewer publications, or do you want to be a researcher in hardcore basic science/translational med and publish in Cell, Immunity, etc. If you want the latter, I don't really think that the DVM helps much. A high profile post-docs and pubs post-PhD would be much more advantageous (and paid).
 
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