Canadians Studying in the USA

[thetitans2k]

If I go to optometry school in the US, how does licensing work when I return to Canada? Has any one here graduated in the USA and come back to Canada to practice?

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[qwopty99]

That's basically it. No other hoops to jump through.

 

[gochi]

I was wondering if its mandatory to take the NBEO exams even if you will not practice in the states ?

 

[gochi]

Usually its a requirement to get your O.D. at U.S. schools.

That's just ridiculous. They expect us to pay 20k/yr for tuition and cough up another grand or so for board examinations ???

Now, I know there are 3 parts to the NBEO, but do you have to write the first part in order to advance to 2nd year or whatever ?

 

[Eye-Spy]

Actually, I don't think you have to take the American board exams if you are studying in the US and planning on practicing only in Canada.

I'm Canadian and I'm a first year student at ICO right now, and I asked some upper years about this. From what I've heard, most Canadians do take the American boards to keep their options open, but it's not required to graduate or to go on externships.

I'm not sure how accurate my source was... anyone else heard the same thing?

 

[jefguth]

What is so ridiculous about that? You're gonna write them anyways... even if you think you're going back to Canada ASAP it is in your best interest to obtain and maintain licensure in the US anyways.

BTW you're gonna pay much more than 20K in tuition... NBEO is peanuts in the big picture.

My school, ICO requires you to write NBEO, but I don't think they've ever held anyone back b/c they haven't passed part I.

 

[gochi]

At most school it IS required to graduate.

Thats complete BS. If they require it, then they should pay for it, or atleast include it in the tuition cost.

 

[gochi]

What is so ridiculous about that? You're gonna write them anyways... even if you think you're going back to Canada ASAP it is in your best interest to obtain and maintain licensure in the US anyways.

BTW you're gonna pay much more than 20K in tuition... NBEO is peanuts in the big picture.

My school, ICO requires you to write NBEO, but I don't think they've ever held anyone back b/c they haven't passed part I.

Well, you would have to obtain some sort of status in order to practice in the states if you're a Canadian, and I have read somewhere that it's difficult to obtain this status.

Can't you just write the NBEO when you decide you want to practice in the USA after you have practiced in another country or do you have to be a student or something like that in order to write the NBEO ?

 

[gochi]

Schools want to hide as many extra costs as possible to get you to go there.

Well, there not doing a good job.

 

[jefguth]

Well, you would have to obtain some sort of status in order to practice in the states if you're a Canadian, and I have read somewhere that it's difficult to obtain this status.

Can't you just write the NBEO when you decide you want to practice in the USA after you have practiced in another country or do you have to be a student or something like that in order to write the NBEO ?

There's a difference between having a license and having a job. Don't need any special immigration status to get a license except in Louisiana. Getting a visa isn't difficult at all, all your favourite corporate chains are quite willing to sponsor.

And taking the NBEO isn't just something you do in a weekend, the way the 3 parts are broken up it would be about 6months from part I to part III

 

[qwopty99]

Thats complete BS. If they require it, then they should pay for it, or atleast include it in the tuition cost.

Uhh... who pays the tuition?

 

[gochi]

There's a difference between having a license and having a job. Don't need any special immigration status to get a license except in Louisiana. Getting a visa isn't difficult at all, all your favourite corporate chains are quite willing to sponsor.

And taking the NBEO isn't just something you do in a weekend, the way the 3 parts are broken up it would be about 6months from part I to part III

Well, it may be easier to work for corporate if you dont have you're visa or whatever but I heard its difficult otherwise if you are seeking to work in a p.p. as most doc's dont want to deal with all the bs..

So if you dont take the NBEO then you cannot practice in the states, but can you successfully graduate and get you're degree ? Im just saying, if I never plan on coming back to the states then there is no point of spending numerous amounts of money and time for something that I wont use.

 

[gochi]

Uhh... who pays the tuition?

Yeah...but it seems like BS to me, really. Why dont they just include it in the tuition ? Its like these schools are one of those insurance companies with hidden fees and whatnot. You know what, I would'nt really care if it cost $50 to take the test, but charging somewhere around the mid to high hundreds is just absurd.

 

[jefguth]

if 1500 dollars is such a big deal to you just forget about optometry school altogether. Holy crap, did you know you have to buy your own equipment too? Shouldn't the school just buy that for me??? Man, all these hidden fees.

If you really think its such a smart idea to to to school in the US, not write NBEO, and not get a state license don't come whining when you fail Canadian boards and have all this debt to pay but no license to practice anywhere in the world.

Wait to you hear how much Canadian boards cost

 

[gochi]

if 1500 dollars is such a big deal to you just forget about optometry school altogether. Holy crap, did you know you have to buy your own equipment too? Shouldn't the school just buy that for me??? Man, all these hidden fees.

If you really think its such a smart idea to to to school in the US, not write NBEO, and not get a state license don't come whining when you fail Canadian boards and have all this debt to pay but no license to practice anywhere in the world.

Wait to you hear how much Canadian boards cost

Well no, equipment I know you have to pay for.
I never said it was not a smart idea to go to the school in the US. I said it was BS to charge students heavily for board examinations- if you think not, then YOU are an imbecile.

Holy f***, $3450 to take the Canadian boards test...thats such BS....they could change that to $10000 and students could not do squat about that. Seriously, how is this amount even justified ?

 

[jaguilar]

did you consider that after you pay for the boards, you get a be a doctor and charge fees? because in the long run of things, its nothing

 

[qwopty99]

Holy f***, $3450 to take the Canadian boards test...thats such BS....they could change that to $10000 and students could not do squat about that. Seriously, how is this amount even justified ?

The groups who administer Board exams (in both Canada and US) are independent companies. They are in the optometry-boards business - so they are profit-seeking enterprises.

It's justified because:
1. they know students will pay for it because they need to in order to practice.
2. how else is the CEO of Optometry-Boards-Inc. supposed to pay for his Ferrari?

 

[gochi]

The groups who administer Board exams (in both Canada and US) are independent companies. They are in the optometry-boards business - so they are profit-seeking enterprises.

It's justified because:
1. they know students will pay for it because they need to in order to practice.
2. how else is the CEO of Optometry-Boards-Inc. supposed to pay for his Ferrari?

Exactly, we all know it does not take thousands of dollars to administer and mark an exam yet we pay that amount so we can obtain a license.

There are two optometry schools in Canada, constituting 533 students collectively. Assuming they all graduate, they would have to pay $1,838,850 collectively to take the boards. That's nonsense!

 

[qwopty99]

Exactly, we all know it does not take thousands of dollars to administer and mark an exam yet we pay that amount so we can obtain a license.

There are two optometry schools in Canada, constituting 533 students collectively. Assuming they all graduate, they would have to pay $1,838,850 collectively to take the boards. That's nonsense!

Especially when they just repeat all the same questions year to year. It's not as though any of that money goes to R&D of new exam material.



I think at the very least if we're going to be asked to pay that much, the CEO should at least give us a ride to the exam location in his Ferrari.

 

[Ben Chudner]

Yeah...but it seems like BS to me, really. Why dont they just include it in the tuition ? Its like these schools are one of those insurance companies with hidden fees and whatnot. You know what, I would'nt really care if it cost $50 to take the test, but charging somewhere around the mid to high hundreds is just absurd.

Did you know that every state and, I assume province, requires you to take CE in order to keep your license active? Do you know how much you will spend in travel, hotel, and registration fees? All that money goes to for-profit companies as well. Do you think the states should pay for you and include it in the cost of renewing your license?

This is just the way it is. The NBEO has gone to the effort of standardizing a test that every state accepts. For that, they expect to be paid. If you think you could do it for less, I suggest you create an exam and sell it to every state optometric board. Then you will get that Ferrari.

And by the way, if you think that the schools would simply include it at the current tuition rates, you are crazy. If the schools paid for it and included it the cost of tuition, not only would tuition go up, but you would pay even more for the exams than you do now. The schools would add admin fees and anything else they could think of to profit from paying for your national board exams.

 

[jefguth]

The groups who administer Board exams (in both Canada and US) are independent companies. They are in the optometry-boards business - so they are profit-seeking enterprises.

It's justified because:
1. they know students will pay for it because they need to in order to practice.
2. how else is the CEO of Optometry-Boards-Inc. supposed to pay for his Ferrari?

Both boards of examiners are non-profits. Considerable resources are needed to put everything together, and considering that there are ~10X the number of students writing NBEO vs. CSAO I can understand why it cost considerably more to take the Canadian exams. Kind of like how everything is Canada cost more b/c the whole market is 1/10 the size of the USA.

The real question is why do we even need to have a CSAO when it's practically the same damn thing as NBEO at twice the price

 

[qwopty99]

Both boards of examiners are non-profits. Considerable resources are needed to put everything together, and considering that there are ~10X the number of students writing NBEO vs. CSAO I can understand why it cost considerably more to take the Canadian exams. Kind of like how everything is Canada cost more b/c the whole market is 1/10 the size of the USA.

The real question is why do we even need to have a CSAO when it's practically the same damn thing as NBEO at twice the price

I don't know about the financial details of the CSAO. I'm obviously being facetious in some of my posts.

The truth is, there are definitely some real costs involved in administering something like the CSAO. They have to hire ODs to do the supervision of the clinical competence components. They have to pay rent at the institutions where they are running the examinations. I'm sure there are other big expenses too.

Is 3000 too much? It's really hard to say. Obviously if there was a free market for such a product (optom boards), some group would find a way to do it cheaper. Until then, it's just one of those things u gotta do.

Membership in the Ontario Assoc of Optometrists is like $2300/year...

 

[qwopty99]

My school, ICO requires you to write NBEO, but I don't think they've ever held anyone back b/c they haven't passed part I.

How does that work? So you gotta take the NBEO, but they don't care if you pass?

 

[jefguth]

How does that work? So you gotta take the NBEO, but they don't care if you pass?

I'm not sure how it works...never been bothered to worry about.

But I know know that they know everyones Part I score, at least by student number, so they can analyze the data and track scores against GPA, OAT, etc.

 

[gochi]

I don't know about the financial details of the CSAO. I'm obviously being facetious in some of my posts.

The truth is, there are definitely some real costs involved in administering something like the CSAO. They have to hire ODs to do the supervision of the clinical competence components. They have to pay rent at the institutions where they are running the examinations. I'm sure there are other big expenses too.

Is 3000 too much? It's really hard to say. Obviously if there was a free market for such a product (optom boards), some group would find a way to do it cheaper. Until then, it's just one of those things u gotta do.

Membership in the Ontario Assoc of Optometrists is like $2300/year...

So what happens if you don't pay the $2300 ?

 

[gochi]

I'm not sure how it works...never been bothered to worry about.

But I know know that they know everyones Part I score, at least by student number, so they can analyze the data and track scores against GPA, OAT, etc.

So what happens if you don't write the NBEO ?

 

[qwopty99]

So what happens if you don't pay the $2300 ?

If you're an OD in Canada (Ontario in specific here), you'll have the opportunity to be a member of the,
1. Association
2. College

You need to be a member of the college to practice, so that expense is a given (~$800).

If you want to be a member of the association (not mandatory), it runs about $2300.

I hear about ~80-90% of Ontario optoms are members of the association.

Some province's college functions dually as both college AND association, so i don't know how things are done there (only one mandatory membership?). It may be the case that in some provinces, association membership is mandatory as well, in order to practice.

 

[gochi]

So, NBEO cost's $1875 to take (all three parts).

There are 17 optometry schools in the US currently and I'll assume each school occupies 180 students.

It would cost $5,737,500 dollars for all optometry students to take the NBEO in the United States, so students from one school would collectively spend $337,500 dollars to take the NBEO while students from one Canadian school would collectively spend $919,425 to take the Canadian equivalent of NBEO.

Now, Canadians are grossly overcharged. The maximum cost to take the Canadian boards should be $337,500 not triple that amount. If Canadians are being overcharged, then Im pretty sure Americans are as well.

 

[gochi]

If you're an OD in Canada (Ontario in specific here), you'll have the opportunity to be a member of the,
1. Association
2. College

You need to be a member of the college to practice, so that expense is a given (~$800).

If you want to be a member of the association (not mandatory), it runs about $2300.

I hear about ~80-90% of Ontario optoms are members of the association.

Some province's college functions dually as both college AND association, so i don't know how things are done there (only one mandatory membership?). It may be the case that in some provinces, association membership is mandatory as well, in order to practice.

Ok more BS. (not directed towards you

So exactly why must you be a member of the college in order to practice ?

What are the advantages of being in an Association ?

 

[qwopty99]

Ok more BS. (not directed towards you

So exactly why must you be a member of the college in order to practice ?

What are the advantages of being in an Association ?

Being a "Member of the College" simply means you have a license to practice. If a patient complains about you, it's the College that they complain to, and the College can take your license away. "Member" is simply a friendly way of saying you paid for your license, and it's an annual cost.


Association... they do a lot of advertising every year to convince Ontario ODs to pony up the money. You get their emails... their newsletters... a certificate you can hang in your office.... That's about all you physically "get".

But you also "get" the satisfaction of knowing you're helping your fellow optometrists and their lobby to keep optometry proud and prosperous (I'm not trying to diminish this effort). Basically, the association functions as an optometrist union, and is the primary front for the OD lobby.

 

[gochi]

Being a "Member of the College" simply means you have a license to practice. If a patient complains about you, it's the College that they complain to, and the College can take your license away. "Member" is simply a friendly way of saying you paid for your license, and it's an annual cost.


Association... they do a lot of advertising every year to convince Ontario ODs to pony up the money. You get their emails... their newsletters... a certificate you can hang in your office.... That's about all you physically "get".

But you also "get" the satisfaction of knowing you're helping your fellow optometrists and their lobby to keep optometry proud and prosperous (I'm not trying to diminish this effort). Basically, the association functions as an optometrist union, and is the primary front for the OD lobby.

I thought you were you're own boss if you had you're own p.p.

2.3k still sounds like a lot with everything taken into account, including the apparent satisfaction.

 

[qwopty99]

You are your own boss if you are PP. But you need a license to practice optometry. That's where "membership" comes in.

 

[gochi]

You are your own boss if you are PP. But you need a license to practice optometry. That's where "membership" comes in.

But I have already earned my license. I have gone to school for 4 years and earned a professional degree. I have passed board examinations. Why do I need to spend $800 to validate my license ? How is that amount justified ?

 

[qwopty99]

No.

You spend 4 years of your life to acquire a doctor of optometry degree. That is not a license to practice. That is simply an educational qualification.

You have to then pass a licensing examination ("the boards"). That too is not a "license".

With your degree and your passing score, you apply for a "registration" with the college (aka license, aka membership). THAT'S when you can practice optometry.

The college of optometry is a corporation too. You gotta pay their secretary costs and their hydro. That's where the annual $800 fee comes in.

 

[qwopty99]

Did you know that every state and, I assume province, requires you to take CE in order to keep your license active? Do you know how much you will spend in travel, hotel, and registration fees?

YUP. Don't forget CE costs.

In Ontario, u need 20 hrs of CE a year. ROUGHLY SPEAKING, you can get "cheap" CE for about 15 dollars/hour.

More commonly, you'll pay roughly 25/hour for CE.

But incidental expenses can definitely run more than that. A 2-day CE conference in another town will get you, say, 14-15 hours of CE (so about $450 for the conference registration), BUT since it's outta town, u gotta stay overnight ($200), plus buy food and parking (~$100). So you just paid like $650 bucks for a two-day weekend in order to sit in some room and listen to a bunch of lectures you've probably heard 100X before (they're always the same speakers covering practically the same topics).

And don't forget, you didn't work that weekend, so you didn't earn any income.

 

[gochi]

Wow, this all sucks very bad !

I really was not expecting all these excessive fee's

 

[drbizzaro]

Wow, this all sucks very bad !

I really was not expecting all these excessive fee's

you better rethink your career choice!

 

[gochi]

you better rethink your career choice!

Nice try

haha...nice sig.

 

[stonegoat]

Joining your provincial association is important. It is the provincial association that ensures optometrists have a voice with the Ministry of Health. They negotiate for everything optometry has or will have. Don't fool yourself.....without your association you are an island surrounded by a hostile sea.

 

[Haystack]

$3000/yr. to be a member of the B.C. association (mandatory membership). For this you get:

- no increase in reimbursements in the past 10+ years
- de-insurance of eye examinations for healthy adults since 2001
- no TPA legislation although it has been "imminent" for 10 years
- proliferation of sight-testing by opticians throughout the province, green-
lighted by the Ministry of Health so that adults have a "free" alternative

If the BCAO has a voice with the Ministry of Health, its not being heard. The province of B.C. is the least progressive jurisdiction for optometry in North America. How many O.D.'s would voluntarily pony up 3K every year to belong to an association with such a record of failure. And this is on top of the $1000/yr license fee.

 

[qwopty99]

- proliferation of sight-testing by opticians throughout the province, green-
lighted by the Ministry of Health so that adults have a "free" alternative

The Minister of Health who passed the legislation had a sister-in-law who was an optician.