- Joined
- Nov 20, 2015
- Messages
- 63
- Reaction score
- 89
So, what is the absolute latest that you can cancel an upcoming interview without looking like a total schmuck? Um, asking for a friend...
To say nothing of the collegial discourtesy of holding onto a scarce resource that others would value, and which they may need to incur additional costs and inconveniences to access at short notice--if possible at all.I suspect most people who cancel within 2 weeks have known far earlier that they are not interested in a specific program and have just postponed finalizing the decision. Hence why it is a professionalism issue. Within the two week period I have already expended my critical resources and time making a schedule, preparing material, etc. The amount saved on my end is minimal at that point when an applicant cancels.
Just cancel. No need for the big explanation. The schmuck part is implied.If you don't want to be a schmuck, simply state that you wanted to cancel earlier and was embarrassed to do so out of respect, but felt it better that they instead have the opportunity to find someone who could succeed there.
How do you PDs go about contacting other candidates once an interview cancels? Do you have a separate "waitlist" of sorts that has already been prepared or do you just go back to the pile of applications and randomly send out some invites? Is there any benefit to sending emails to programs now expressing that you would appear for an interview in the event of a cancellation?
I suspect most people who cancel within 2 weeks have known far earlier that they are not interested in a specific program and have just postponed finalizing the decision. Hence why it is a professionalism issue. Within the two week period I have already expended my critical resources and time making a schedule, preparing material, etc. The amount saved on my end is minimal at that point when an applicant cancels.
Just cancel. No need for the big explanation. The schmuck part is implied.
I disagree. Late canceling an interview is not a professionalism issue. It's a manners issue, and it may burn bridges, but that's about it. The only people who would label this a "professionalism" issue would be program directors, because they're the ones whose time has been wasted. But I don't see PDs fretting about all the wasted time forced upon students and residents as part of the overly cumbersome NRMP process or other aspects of medical training.
And if you really think this is a "professionalism issue" then do you also believe that it's "unprofessional" for medical school applicants to to wait until May to turn down the med school admissions offers they don't plan to accept? Applicants have to strategize, after all, and the fact that you may be inconvenienced in the process makes it rude, but not unprofessional.
professionalism is the most toxic concept in medicine today. The uncritical expansionism of this project seeks to govern and control physicians in every sphere of our lives - from what we wear, buy, eat, drink, post on social media to whom we have sex with. Professionalism enshrines the elitism, misogyny, and racism that has for too long characterized medicine by privileging a white bourgeois notion of what values and behaviors are acceptable. As physicians become increasingly at the mercy of market forces, the notion of professionalism oppresses and disenfranchises by reaffirming a collective mythology over individual rights - thus it becomes "unprofessional" for physicians to strike, or to want better work hours or greater pay. Professionalism is the stick we beat each other with. To deem someone "unprofessional" or to note "lack of professionalism" is often little more than thinly veiled name-calling that cuts deep - it is not only an assault on one's values and behaviors, but on one's identity and competency by calling into question your very suitability for your job.
(of course it's poor form to cancel an interview late. and actually i think it might be unprofessional to cancel an interview late. but i do think the term is vastly overused, is pernicious, nebulous and ultimately destructive to the field.)
heh...well leading black psychiatrist Walter Shervington went even further and said "Racism, professionalism, and elitism, have been, are, and will be, major demons embodied in the disciplines and society, majorly interfering with the task of quality mental health care to all people. Each demon may require two or more exorcists' lives as we attempt to expel them, but like the character of the Old Priest in "The Exorcist", Father Merrin, we must prepare our trainees to have the strengths to battle the demons when the time comes."But how do you really feel about this, splik?
This..... There is, however, nothing wrong with emphasizing the need to be timely, follow-through, interact with others with respect, etc. Call it responsibility or basic human decency if you like. ....
But there is also a baby-out-with-the-bathwater scenario at play when medical students and residents dismiss the professionalism concept as a whole as something meaningless since many have not worked as professionals before. When a resident skips mandatory activities because they don't like them, don't want to do them, or disagrees with them, this is "unprofessional" and pretending it's a bad word doesn't make it any less accurate. The rest of us still have to pick up your slack.
Yeah, it's tough, but we all know the slippery slope.When the resident who just finished 24 hours of call skips his mandatory didactics to get some sleep, I hardly find them guilty of putting themselves above their education or any other nonsense.
I didn't realize this before becoming chief and actually getting involved in the performance of other residents. There's one that doesn't seem too bright imo, but stays organized and works hard, and is trainable and good to have around. Another one may be more intelligent but the lack of professionalism just makes this person a nightmare. There's always problems at every site and I just don't know how to fix this. After this experience, I'd rather professionalism get overblown than underblown.If I could find a valid and reliable way to screen for a lack of something in the application process, this would be an order of magnitude more relevant than intelligence. Let’s face it, brains are a dime a dozen in this field. I’ll take people who can successfully manage people any day.
What has been happening on many college campuses lately with this weird fixation on making class discussions "safe" and focusing on coddling instead of striving to challenge ideas and values makes me think this is going to be more and more of an issue. Particularly when you consider that this sort of thing seems much more prevalent at the Ivier place. Combine that with a lot of the "special snowflake" approach to childrearing lately (particularly amongst those kids who end up at said Ivies) and I think there are going to be some real interesting times ahead in creating new doctors or lawyers or other professional types in which your needs don't always come first.
Sorry but residency is a "real job" and the problems you describe arise when we overemphasize the trainee role of physicians in order to oppress them. Of course people are going to act less than professional if they are not treated as such. It irritates the hell out of me when medical students and residents that use language to suggest resident physicians are students rather than employees, though this is reinforced by institutions (including my own who claimed that residents weren't employees in order to exploit us and we took them to court over it), and has these consequences where people then don't turn up to didactics (seeing it as an educational activity rather than part of their job which they are paid to do), or shirking on duties they see as non-educational (forgetting that patient care trumps all else).The "sniff test" for professionalism though, is often simply "Would they get away with this on a 'real job'?"
Could you consistently come in late, inappropriately attired, and not get cited for it on your next review?
Could you decide that half of the meetings the Boss invites you to are "just a waste of my time, not worth the bother" and still expect to have a job next year?
Could you take a day off with short notice even though you have customers/clients scheduled to meet with you on that day, expecting that someone else will call and notify them?
I know that there is always some tension between the trainee role and the employee role as far as residency is concerned, and frankly, a lot of pre-meds become med students become residents without actually having to engage with the rules and expectations of the non-academic, competitive job market--but this is what it frequently comes down to.
I'm not sure that's true. Part of the tension is that neither residents nor programs really treat residency as a real job and residents as real employees.Sorry but residency is a "real job" and the problems you describe arise when we overemphasize the trainee role of physicians in order to oppress them.
True. But things like mandatory meetings and many things we gripe about as residents are not inherently unprofessional. In fact, residents often gripe loudest when they are treated like professionals. Mandatory training, picking up slack to make up for co-workers shortcomings, and being asked to lean in during times of crisis/challenge are exactly what employers expect of professionals but tend to ruffle resident features. Walk into a resident meeting and tell them they all have to take a couple extra nights of call because someone's out sick and watch the reaction. But this is part and parcel in any other professional work environment.Of course people are going to act less than professional if they are not treated as such.
Totally agree. The very idea that someone can be "unprofessional" when not at work shows definition creep.btw I would agree that all the examples you give above are unacceptable but what I am railing against is the charges against what people do in their own time as unprofessional or people wanting work-life balance, maternity leave etc being called "unprofessional". Sadly the vast expanse of what now comes under the nebulous term of "professionalism" only seeks to undercut and eclipse the behaviors that I think we can all agree are unacceptable in the workplace.
I'm not sure that's true. Part of the tension is that neither residents nor programs really treat residency as a real job and residents as real employees.
If this were the case, residents would be free to walk down the street to the next employer if they didn't like how they were treated. But residents don't have that ability which is part of the problem and why residents occasionally tolerate treatment the shouldn't have to. If this were the case, residents would be fired by programs when they pull shady, weak, or undergrad $hit at the residency. But this isn't the case and "problem residents" that pop up from time to time would be let go in a heartbeat in almost any other field, let alone one that involves safety issues.
This is why there is the tension. Programs don't really want residents to act like employees (e.g.: walk if mistreated) and residents don't really want to be treated like employees (e.g.: fired if not cutting it or if a bad fit).
True. But things like mandatory meetings and many things we gripe about as residents are not inherently unprofessional. In fact, residents often gripe loudest when they are treated like professionals. Mandatory training, picking up slack to make up for co-workers shortcomings, and being asked to lean in during times of crisis/challenge are exactly what employers expect of professionals but tend to ruffle resident features. Walk into a resident meeting and tell them they all have to take a couple extra nights of call because someone's out sick and watch the reaction. But this is part and parcel in any other professional work environment.
Totally agree. The very idea that someone can be "unprofessional" when not at work shows definition creep.
As for work-life balance issues, advocating for yourself and your colleagues is not unprofessional. Asking for a raise, improved working conditions, more vacation, humane conditions, etc. is actually very professional and programs pretending otherwise are being self-serving. With one VERY BIG caveat, and that's that residents advocate professionally, which isn't always the case. I love medicine and love psychiatry and loved residency, but if I left academics, the one thing I would cherish is not hearing "it's not fair" so frequently.
...
True. But things like mandatory meetings and many things we gripe about as residents are not inherently unprofessional. In fact, residents often gripe loudest when they are treated like professionals. Mandatory training, picking up slack to make up for co-workers shortcomings, and being asked to lean in during times of crisis/challenge are exactly what employers expect of professionals but tend to ruffle resident features. Walk into a resident meeting and tell them they all have to take a couple extra nights of call because someone's out sick and watch the reaction. But this is part and parcel in any other professional work environment.
I
True. But things like mandatory meetings and many things we gripe about as residents are not inherently unprofessional. In fact, residents often gripe loudest when they are treated like professionals. Mandatory training, picking up slack to make up for co-workers shortcomings, and being asked to lean in during times of crisis/challenge are exactly what employers expect of professionals but tend to ruffle resident features. Walk into a resident meeting and tell them they all have to take a couple extra nights of call because someone's out sick and watch the reaction. But this is part and parcel in any other professional work environment.
And I would tag that as "unprofessional" on the part of the program.Residencies are this very top heavy environment where you get essentially told what you're going to do and also that you're input isn't that welcome.
You'll have to walk me through the logic of how attending a number of interviews that is literally an integer multiple of the number at which chance to match asymptotes forms a coherent strategy. I'm a tad confused.
professionalism is the most toxic concept in medicine today. The uncritical expansionism of this project seeks to govern and control physicians in every sphere of our lives - from what we wear, buy, eat, drink, post on social media to whom we have sex with. Professionalism enshrines the elitism, misogyny, and racism that has for too long characterized medicine by privileging a white bourgeois notion of what values and behaviors are acceptable. As physicians become increasingly at the mercy of market forces, the notion of professionalism oppresses and disenfranchises by reaffirming a collective mythology over individual rights - thus it becomes "unprofessional" for physicians to strike, or to want better work hours or greater pay. Professionalism is the stick we beat each other with. To deem someone "unprofessional" or to note "lack of professionalism" is often little more than thinly veiled name-calling that cuts deep - it is not only an assault on one's values and behaviors, but on one's identity and competency by calling into question your very suitability for your job.
(of course it's poor form to cancel an interview late. and actually i think it might be unprofessional to cancel an interview late. but i do think the term is vastly overused, is pernicious, nebulous and ultimately destructive to the field.)
I don't disagree with this at all, but it's still a situation that requires context. When the resident who just finished 24 hours of call skips his mandatory didactics to get some sleep, I hardly find them guilty of putting themselves above their education or any other nonsense. Sure maybe they knew that was what neurosurgery residency was going to be like, but it doesn't make the situation any less absurd (and the above happens in psychiatry, although far less often). I've had colleagues jet after a lecturer cancels, even if someone is coming an hour later, because it's a chance to spend a few hours with their children. I'm sure people would call them unprofessional, but medicine is tough and taking a few moments to yourself or your family is needed at times.
I haven't figured out a process yet. Only about five or six cancelations so far and none of them were far enough in advance to let anyone else in. I also have a very large pile of wait list applicants. My need for our wait list isn't up to me really. It is still wait and see.