CAP responds to SDN Pathology

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The State of the Job Market for Pathologists - Evidence From the College of American Pathologists Practice Leader Survey
David J. Gross, PhD; W. Stephen Black-Schaffer, MD; Robert D. Hoffman, MD, PhD; Donald S. Karcher, MD; Edith Lopez Estrada, BA; Stanley J. Robboy, MD; Michael B. Cohen, MD
Link to Article
Archives of Pathology
Corresponding author: David J. Gross, PhD, College of American Pathologists, 1001 G Street, NW, Suite 425 West, Washington, DC 20001 (email: [email protected]).
Open Access Article

Excerpt:

"The job market for pathologists has been, and continues to be, of great concern to pathology organizations, to the community of practicing pathologists and pathologists in training, and to medical students who are considering whether to specialize in pathology. Even though the number of pathologists trained each year is below that of those expected to retire or otherwise leave the workforce1 —a projection supported by a recent report of a dramatic decline in the number of active pathologists in the United States between 2007 and 20172 —and despite emerging evidence of an easing job market for new-in-practice pathologists3 and of increases in advertisements for pathology jobs,4 some medical students and pathology trainees continue to see a tight market. Commentary on social media sites, such as studentdoctor.net, as well as a recent commentary in the Journal of the American Medical Association, 5 suggests that the job market for those seeking pathology positions remains bleak. Some of the perception is likely a residual effect of a change in pathology training that resulted from a 2002 decision by the American Board of Pathology to rescind its requirement that residents complete a ‘‘credentialing year’’ after completing 4 years of residency. This change inadvertently resulted in a temporary but substantial oversupply still 4 years later, when 2001 residency matriculants entered the job market (after completing their credentialing year) at the same time as 2002 matriculants (who had completed their now-mandated 4 years of residency training). This one-time oversupply had the unintended consequence of trainees who could not find jobs taking an extra year (and often 2 years) of training. The result has made those with extra training more competitive in the job market than graduates with no additional training. This trend has continued during the ensuing years and has created an impression among medical students that few jobs in pathology exist.6"

Translation:

All of you SDN Pathology folk are hallucinating.

Members don't see this ad.
 
They think a one year reduction in 2001 caused a fake appearance of less jobs NINETEEN YEARS later?
 
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CAP has a difficult job. They try to be a big tent. CAP has done an admirable job advocating for mitigation of RVU cuts to the 2021 physician fee schedule. This effort benefits all pathologists.

CAP's support of 600 residency training spots hurts most pathologists. As proposed by participants on this forum, CAP should push for a decrease in the number of training spots to 230 and shift 370 training spots to primary care. I feel CMS would embrace this proposal.

The reasons for the bleak pathology job market could be discussed all day long. The idea that elimination of a credentialing year by the ABP in 2001 impacts the job market today is laughable. This is a non-testable hypothesis and it fails to pass the common sense test. In late March I will report the 2020 NRMP match data for pathology. I hope that around 200 US seniors apply for the 600 pathology training spots. This has been the case for the last several years.
 
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Members don't see this ad :)
This article written by BIG ACADEMIA that hopes to flood their ACADEMIC LABS with INDENTURED RESIDENTS and the BIG FAT GOVERNMENT WELFARE CHECK that accompanies them.
 
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I may be wrong on this, but I think it is possible that one year reduction 19 years ago is still having a major effect. This is because the total number of residents in a program stayed the same but the number of years went down. So, a program that had 20 residents across 5 years (4 each year) now has 20 residents across 4 years (5 each year). So, every single year since that change more residents have been graduating per year.
 
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I may be wrong on this, but I think it is possible that one year reduction 19 years ago is still having a major effect. This is because the total number of residents in a program stayed the same but the number of years went down. So, a program that had 20 residents across 5 years (4 each year) now has 20 residents across 4 years (5 each year). So, every single year since that change more residents have been graduating per year.

BIG ACADEMIA and their ECONOMIC IMBECILITY are either incapable of understanding such concepts or more likely DECEITFUL about them .
 
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I may be wrong on this, but I think it is possible that one year reduction 19 years ago is still having a major effect. This is because the total number of residents in a program stayed the same but the number of years went down. So, a program that had 20 residents across 5 years (4 each year) now has 20 residents across 4 years (5 each year). So, every single year since that change more residents have been graduating per year.

It needs to be looked into more.
 
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Wow, CAP is really on top of the situation...

1579884717070.png
 
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I would comment that most pathologist need to do 1-2 fellowships after a 4-year AP/CP residency. This de facto fellowship requirement for pathology should balance out dropping of a "credentialing year" in 2001. I did 4 years of residency and 2 years of fellowships. We have never hired a pathologist who didn't do at least one fellowship.
 
I would comment that most pathologist need to do 1-2 fellowships after a 4-year AP/CP residency. This de facto fellowship requirement for pathology should balance out dropping of a "credentialing year" in 2001. I did 4 years of residency and 2 years of fellowships. We have never hired a pathologist who didn't do at least one fellowship.

WRONG! The FILTER is the NUMBER OF RESIDENTS GRADUATED EVERY YEAR.

When the credentialling year was dropped, program started graduating 25% MORE RESIDENTS EVERY SINGLE YEAR.

It doesn't matter if they do 10 fellowships, you still have 25% MORE PATHOLOGISTS EVERY SINGLE YEAR.

David J. Gross, PhD; W. Stephen Black-Schaffer, MD; Robert D. Hoffman, MD, PhD; Donald S. Karcher, MD; Edith Lopez Estrada, BA; Stanley J. Robboy, MD; Michael B. Cohen, MD ===== FAKE NEWS! FAKE RESEARCH! FAKE MATH!!!
 
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The State of the Job Market for Pathologists - Evidence From the College of American Pathologists Practice Leader Survey
David J. Gross, PhD; W. Stephen Black-Schaffer, MD; Robert D. Hoffman, MD, PhD; Donald S. Karcher, MD; Edith Lopez Estrada, BA; Stanley J. Robboy, MD; Michael B. Cohen, MD
Link to Article
Archives of Pathology
Corresponding author: David J. Gross, PhD, College of American Pathologists, 1001 G Street, NW, Suite 425 West, Washington, DC 20001 (email: [email protected]).
Open Access Article

Excerpt:

"The job market for pathologists has been, and continues to be, of great concern to pathology organizations, to the community of practicing pathologists and pathologists in training, and to medical students who are considering whether to specialize in pathology. Even though the number of pathologists trained each year is below that of those expected to retire or otherwise leave the workforce1 —a projection supported by a recent report of a dramatic decline in the number of active pathologists in the United States between 2007 and 20172 —and despite emerging evidence of an easing job market for new-in-practice pathologists3 and of increases in advertisements for pathology jobs,4 some medical students and pathology trainees continue to see a tight market. Commentary on social media sites, such as studentdoctor.net, as well as a recent commentary in the Journal of the American Medical Association, 5 suggests that the job market for those seeking pathology positions remains bleak. Some of the perception is likely a residual effect of a change in pathology training that resulted from a 2002 decision by the American Board of Pathology to rescind its requirement that residents complete a ‘‘credentialing year’’ after completing 4 years of residency. This change inadvertently resulted in a temporary but substantial oversupply still 4 years later, when 2001 residency matriculants entered the job market (after completing their credentialing year) at the same time as 2002 matriculants (who had completed their now-mandated 4 years of residency training). This one-time oversupply had the unintended consequence of trainees who could not find jobs taking an extra year (and often 2 years) of training. The result has made those with extra training more competitive in the job market than graduates with no additional training. This trend has continued during the ensuing years and has created an impression among medical students that few jobs in pathology exist.6"

Translation:

All of you SDN Pathology folk are hallucinating.
The lady doth protest too much
 
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The State of the Job Market for Pathologists - Evidence From the College of American Pathologists Practice Leader Survey
David J. Gross, PhD; W. Stephen Black-Schaffer, MD; Robert D. Hoffman, MD, PhD; Donald S. Karcher, MD; Edith Lopez Estrada, BA; Stanley J. Robboy, MD; Michael B. Cohen, MD
Link to Article
Archives of Pathology
Corresponding author: David J. Gross, PhD, College of American Pathologists, 1001 G Street, NW, Suite 425 West, Washington, DC 20001 (email: [email protected]).
Open Access Article

Excerpt:

"The job market for pathologists has been, and continues to be, of great concern to pathology organizations, to the community of practicing pathologists and pathologists in training, and to medical students who are considering whether to specialize in pathology. Even though the number of pathologists trained each year is below that of those expected to retire or otherwise leave the workforce1 —a projection supported by a recent report of a dramatic decline in the number of active pathologists in the United States between 2007 and 20172 —and despite emerging evidence of an easing job market for new-in-practice pathologists3 and of increases in advertisements for pathology jobs,4 some medical students and pathology trainees continue to see a tight market. Commentary on social media sites, such as studentdoctor.net, as well as a recent commentary in the Journal of the American Medical Association, 5 suggests that the job market for those seeking pathology positions remains bleak. Some of the perception is likely a residual effect of a change in pathology training that resulted from a 2002 decision by the American Board of Pathology to rescind its requirement that residents complete a ‘‘credentialing year’’ after completing 4 years of residency. This change inadvertently resulted in a temporary but substantial oversupply still 4 years later, when 2001 residency matriculants entered the job market (after completing their credentialing year) at the same time as 2002 matriculants (who had completed their now-mandated 4 years of residency training). This one-time oversupply had the unintended consequence of trainees who could not find jobs taking an extra year (and often 2 years) of training. The result has made those with extra training more competitive in the job market than graduates with no additional training. This trend has continued during the ensuing years and has created an impression among medical students that few jobs in pathology exist.6"

Translation:

All of you SDN Pathology folk are hallucinating.
SDN gets into Pubmed! Cool.
 
The best way to study this is to look at ABP data that is captured every two years in MOC/CC. They know how many diplomates are working, where they are working, whether or not it is full time, if they left the country to work elsewhere etc. they also know how many fellowships folks are doing and have this data going back to 2006.

I took a look at the ABP privacy statement (attached). Note that it says aggregated data about diplomates can be released at their discretion to a third party. This is the best data to settle this question about the job market.
 

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Misses many pathologist like myself that don't have to recertify
 
CAP has a difficult job. They try to be a big tent. CAP has done an admirable job advocating for mitigation of RVU cuts to the 2021 physician fee schedule. This effort benefits all pathologists.

CAP's support of 600 residency training spots hurts most pathologists. As proposed by participants on this forum, CAP should push for a decrease in the number of training spots to 230 and shift 370 training spots to primary care. I feel CMS would embrace this proposal.

The reasons for the bleak pathology job market could be discussed all day long. The idea that elimination of a credentialing year by the ABP in 2001 impacts the job market today is laughable. This is a non-testable hypothesis and it fails to pass the common sense test. In late March I will report the 2020 NRMP match data for pathology. I hope that around 200 US seniors apply for the 600 pathology training spots. This has been the case for the last several years.
CAP earns close to $200,000,000 each year mainly through lab proficiency tests and lab inspections performed by unpaid indentured servants.It is controlled and run by businessmen,ACADEMIA and BIG LABS or practices. It spends only $4,000,000 yearly on advocacy.
 
We need Andrew Yang to teach CAP about MATH!

They make a lot of assumptions. What I really find interesting is that may have nailed it on one part. They state the most frequent reason for not filling positions was an inability to find “qualified” candidates and compensation expectations.

I think that tacitly states, in not so many words, that trainees are poorly prepared for independent practice and those that are qualified for the position(s) are paid peanuts. But at least they’re trying to figure out what the “ideal” candidate is, though I don’t think they’ll like the real answer.

I also find the average hiring cycle for smaller practices (1-5 pathologists) is about every 3 years interesting. Maybe I’m trying to connect the dots too hard, but this oddly seems like its pretty good evidence of the phenomenon of new hires getting canned right before they make partner at the 3 year mark. I cannot imagine a small practice of 1-5 pathologists adding 1 new FTE every 3 years indefinitely while retaining all their previous hires.
 
WRONG! The FILTER is the NUMBER OF RESIDENTS GRADUATED EVERY YEAR.

When the credentialling year was dropped, program started graduating 25% MORE RESIDENTS EVERY SINGLE YEAR.

It doesn't matter if they do 10 fellowships, you still have 25% MORE PATHOLOGISTS EVERY SINGLE YEAR.

David J. Gross, PhD; W. Stephen Black-Schaffer, MD; Robert D. Hoffman, MD, PhD; Donald S. Karcher, MD; Edith Lopez Estrada, BA; Stanley J. Robboy, MD; Michael B. Cohen, MD ===== FAKE NEWS! FAKE RESEARCH! FAKE MATH!!!
holy caps...is this the reincarnation of a previously departed SDN member?...
 
holy caps...is this the reincarnation of a previously departed SDN member?...

You better watch your back guys if you complain about the job market too loudly. Remember Thrombus...

hoffa.png



If you have any questions about the job market, pick up a damn phone and call any recruiter. Ask about the number of jobs and the going rate for pathology and then for another random specialty. Compare the numbers, and draw your own conclusions.
 
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