Cardiothoracic DO

[Winged Scapula]

Goooober...no one doubts that what you have done is possible. Your success is evidence of that.

However, to expect that the majority of students will achieve the same is probably naive. Just look at posts from your colleagues who complain about or even refuse to take the USMLE, yet still want the chance to apply to allopathic programs. They DO NOT want to put in the extra effort, to do away rotations at allopathic programs, to get letters from allopathic physicians and perhaps are not thinking about fellowships this far in advance.

I understand you want to encourage all your colleagues to achieve whatever they want because you were able to do so. And while I will join you in that, I think it unreasonable to expect that everyone will be able to do so, to want to do so and/or to achieve what you did.

Narly every year an FMG gets into Derm, or Plastics, or Ortho...despite all the odds. And like Castro points out, over 90% of your class matching into their desired specialty is not a novelty, most US medical school boast the very same statistic. Most of your classmates, like most allopathic students, did not apply for competitive specialties at competitive places. I think YOU are the anomaly...a DO who matched at a very prestigious allopathic program with little to no history of taking DOs. So just like the FMG who matches into a program at Harvard, it would be doing a disservice, IMHO, to tell others that they can easily do it with just a little bit more work.

You can take the USMLE, do US allopathic rotations, have LORs from US allopathic physicians and yet still not match, even with a great application. I frequent the DO forums often enough to hear the complaints that there is still a stigma in the allopathic world. My point is that this DOES hinder *most* applicants. It didn't turn out that way for you and I hope it does change, but I'll bet for most of your colleagues, they'll still have trouble, even with stellar applications.

---

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[Winged Scapula]

Haha... You used www.m-w.com. Haha...

Main Entry: 1hin·der
Pronunciation: \ˈhin-dər\
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): hin·dered; hin·der·ing \-d(ə-)riŋ\
Etymology: Middle English hindren, from Old English hindrian; akin to Old English hinder behind
Date: before 12th century
transitive verb
1 : to make slow or difficult the progress of : hamper

Nope...I actually knew the definition of the word and the difference between a transitive and intransitive verb.

 

[Castro Viejo]

Nope...I actually knew the definition of the word and the difference between a transitive and intransitive verb.

Beauty AND brains!

 

[travoltage]

i think there is still stigma toward DO's in regards to allopathic residencies but DO's should be grateful that allopathic programs allow them to rotate and take residencies of theirs

 

[varicella]

Can we go back to the issue of DO general surgery residents not being eligible for board certification in certain specialties because they are not ABS BE. I am a 4th year DO student who applied to osteopathic and allopathic gen surgery programs and am now anxiously awaiting the match. The issue of not being eligible for board certification in a possible future fellowship has come to my attention in the last month and is keeping me up at night as I prepare my rank list. Before this realization I was very happy and in fact was looking forward to training at an osteopathic program. However, I may be interested in a colorectal fellowship in the future and am now worried about the possible limitations of an osteopathic residency. An MD colorectal surgeon I rotated with told me it would be hard, but not impossible for me to obtain a colorectal fellowship in the future, he mentioned the board certification issue, but seemed to down play it, or perhaps it's meaning didn't fully sink in at the time. I then found a DO colorectal surgeon who went to an ACGME residency and is now ABCRS BC. She blunted told me that an allopathic residency was the only way to go, not only because of the board certification issue, but also as mentioned previously in this thread, what fellowship would want to accept an applicant who is not board eligible?

So now I question what is the next best step to take? Should I not rank the DO surgery programs where I feel I am more likely to match, and instead wait and risk scrambling for an allopathic preliminary spot in the hope of one day becoming a categorical resident? (I feel it is very unlikely that I will match in a categorical allopathic spot as I only rotated and interviewed at one program.) Or should I concentrate on getting into an osteopathic program and resign myself to the fact that I can still be a good surgeon and do many of the bowel cases I love, not as a colorectal surgeon, but as a general surgeon in the community?

Are there any residents in osteopathic surgery programs who are worried about future fellowships and board certification? Thoughts and advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you!

 

[Castro Viejo]

So now I question what is the next best step to take? Should I not rank the DO surgery programs where I feel I am more likely to match, and instead wait and risk scrambling for an allopathic preliminary spot in the hope of one day becoming a categorical resident? (I feel it is very unlikely that I will match in a categorical allopathic spot as I only rotated and interviewed at one program.) Or should I concentrate on getting into an osteopathic program and resign myself to the fact that I can still be a good surgeon and do many of the bowel cases I love, not as a colorectal surgeon, but as a general surgeon in the community?

I would rank the DO programs just so that you don't get stuck in the purgatory of being a preliminary resident in General Surgery. Some of those guys put in years of work and never make it out of the hole and become pediatricians or, worse, EM docs.

In any event, if I were you I'd rather have the security of knowing I'll be boarded by someone when I'm done and if that means I'll have to resign myself to a DO General Surgery residency, then I'll do that.

 

[Blade28]

I understand you want to encourage all your colleagues to achieve whatever they want because you were able to do so. And while I will join you in that, I think it unreasonable to expect that everyone will be able to do so, to want to do so and/or to achieve what you did.

I totally agree.

My Pre-Allo analogy is that it'd be nice if everyone could eventually get into med school, if only they bust their ass, work hard at taking (and retaking) the MCAT, then, if they don't get in, do the requisite post-bac/SMP/etc. and try again until they get in.

And I hate to be a party pooper, but it just doesn't work for everyone. Unfortunately, not everyone who wants to be a physician will matriculate into med school, despite one's best intentions.

The same goes for DOs applying to competitive allopathic residencies. Of course it's not possible. Of course you can do it, especially if you work your ass off, get good contacts/letters, do well in Step 1, publish/do research, etc., etc., etc. But you have to recognize that it's a difficult road, and often the success stories are the exception rather than the norm.

 

[ArcherM2]

- Goooober and any other DO's in allopathic GS,

What do you think made the difference for you when you were applying for the match? Was it a board score? A single away/audition rotation? A solid LOR from an allopathic surgeon? Or was it truly a combination of the above?

-Castro Viejo,

Would you really suggest an osteopathic GS program before doing a preliminary year? I would think the advantages of an allo-residency when it comes to fellowships might outweigh the "purgatory" of the preliminary year, but who knows, I'm just a third-year trying to figure this whole game out.

 

[Castro Viejo]

Would you really suggest an osteopathic GS program before doing a preliminary year? I would think the advantages of an allo-residency when it comes to fellowships might outweigh the "purgatory" of the preliminary year, but who knows, I'm just a third-year trying to figure this whole game out.

Well, you've gotta weigh your options.

Firstly, being in purgatory means you may never get out. Unfortunately there's no time limit and every year you're considered for parole, but a lot of people get stuck in it for a long, long time. And you're not the only one! Remember there are a ton of preliminary General Surgery residents -- many more than categoricals. Granted some of them are designated (i.e., the ortho, ENTs, and neurosurgeons of the world), but the majority are non-designated (i.e., your competition). And remember that the American Board of Surgery has a limit on how many different programs you could have gone through prior to becoming board eligible (i.e., finishing your Chief year). The number is three. An allopathic residency is the only way to go if you're looking to be an academic surgeon in an allopathic institution or be boarded by an allopathic board (i.e., American Board of Surgery, American Board of Thoracic Surgery, etc.). It probably would even be helpful if you wanted to be on an osteopathic school's faculty, but I think you'd still have to do an osteopathic rotating internship to satisfy AOA requirements. But you gotta look at it this way. If after two to three years you don't get a categorical position, what then? Head off into a lab for who-knows-how-long before someone might give you a spot? Or go into pediatrics or something and be about three years behind because you just spent it training in something you'll never do again? Anesthesia? Radiology? Those are all possibilities, I suppose.

The worst story I know of is a guy who graduated with me from med school. Didn't match to General Surgery. Went into a preliminary position for an internship and failed to secure a spot. Moved onto a second place to do a R2 year and failed to secure a spot. Moved to a THIRD place to repeat the R2 year (since there's no such thing as a "preliminary" PGY3) and then the rule came out from the ABS that you couldn't have been through more than three programs. Now he's stuck. And he's been stuck ever since. I'm a graduating Chief Resident and he's STILL an R2! He's been through a "Cardiothoracic Fellowship," a "Critical Care Fellowship," and now a "Burn Fellowship," but none of this is helping him. He'll have to rely on his current institution to give him a spot, but from the looks of it, it'll probably not happen.

So why get stuck in this?

If your plans are to head into community practice and pseduo-academic practice, being boarded through the American Osteopathic Board of Surgery should be just as good. And there are osteopathic surgical fellowships available. Just browsing the AOBS website the other day, there seems to be at least trauma/critical care and vascular surgery.

Now, I can't guarantee you that every hospital in the country will recognize the AOBS, as there may be a bias from certain department chairmen, but I can't confirm that either. It's just a hunch. You'd be better off talking to the AOBS or some osteopathic surgeons you know.

 

[RajMahal]

i think there is still stigma toward DO's in regards to allopathic residencies but DO's should be grateful that allopathic programs allow them to rotate and take residencies of theirs

we don't have to be grateful for S**T. The DO's who make it into competetive Allopathic residencies have had to work their a$$e$ off and be better than their MD counterparts to secure a residency position, so it's not like someone is handing out charitable postgraduate training.

 

[travoltage]

we don't have to be grateful for S**T. The DO's who make it into competetive Allopathic residencies have had to work their a$$e$ off and be better than their MD counterparts to secure a residency position, so it's not like someone is handing out charitable postgraduate training.

i think you misinterpreted what i said, i didnt mean that DO's dont work hard, what i meant is that DO's should be grateful that they are allowed to partake in allopathic residencies, DO instituations have been around for 100 years and are unfortunately are lacking osteopathic residencies and hospitals and whose fault is it, theirs... DO's should be grateful that allopathic agencies agreed to allow DO's to come into their workplace and get training from them, i dont think there is any governmental mandate that ever forced allopathic institutions to do this...

 

[San_Juan_Sun]

i think you misinterpreted what i said, i didnt mean that DO's dont work hard, what i meant is that DO's should be grateful that they are allowed to partake in allopathic residencies, DO instituations have been around for 100 years and are unfortunately are lacking osteopathic residencies and hospitals and whose fault is it, theirs... DO's should be grateful that allopathic agencies agreed to allow DO's to come into their workplace and get training from them, i dont think there is any governmental mandate that ever forced allopathic institutions to do this...

I don't think a pre-med is in any position to tell any physician what they should be grateful for.

 

[RajMahal]

I don't think a pre-med is in any position to tell any physician what they should be grateful for.

word up.

The fact is, There is little to no difference in allopathic and osteopathic education and training these days. To prove that point, DO's take USMLE and rotate at MD institutions. These places still don't "have" to take DO's for training. In fact, there are plenty of programs that do not and likely will never take DO's. MD programs could fill all of their residency spots with MD's, either from the US or elsewhere. What happens is that they choose to take DO's who are excellent physicians because they will be an asset to the institution. In many cases, they choose DO's over MD's. What does that say to you?

 

[Castro Viejo]

word up.

The fact is, There is little to no difference in allopathic and osteopathic education and training these days. To prove that point, DO's take USMLE and rotate at MD institutions. These places still don't "have" to take DO's for training. In fact, there are plenty of programs that do not and likely will never take DO's. MD programs could fill all of their residency spots with MD's, either from the US or elsewhere. What happens is that they choose to take DO's who are excellent physicians because they will be an asset to the institution. In many cases, they choose DO's over MD's. What does that say to you?

I agree with you that there is little difference between the undergraduate medical education of an MD or DO. And I agree with you that whichever DOs one finds in competitive allopathic residencies are there because they worked hard and were probably found to be better candidates than an allopathic applicant.

That said, I however agree with travoltage in that I believe you misunderstood his point.

What he's referring to is the opening up of allopathic/ACGME residencies to osteopathic applicants arond the mid 1970s (1974?) following the failed California merger of MDs and DOs in the late 1960s. Before this time the AMA was quite dead-set against ever allowing any osteopathic physician into an ACGME residency. When California Proposition 22 was approved and DO licensing authorities came back into existence in the state, the AMA moved to allow DOs to enter ACGME residencies. Now the reasoning behind this can be interpreted in two ways, but more popularly, it's believed that the AMA did this in an effort to educate the few DOs in the United States at the time in an allopathic manner and to sort of remove them from the mothership (the AOA). Others believed that it was the AMA who finally recognized, because Proposition 22 "proved" it, that the osteopathic and allopathic profession were the same. That's sort of untrue as it wasn't until the 1990s that the AMA finally dropped all anti-osteopathic language from its policies.

Does that mean the osteopathic profession should be "grateful?" In a way, I suppose, yes. If the AMA/ACGME never wanted to open up their residencies to osteopathic medical students, the AOA would be forced to run its own postgraduate residency programs. It does that now, but the data from the Match shows they are wildly unpopular with osteopathic medical students. In fact, if it never opened up ACGME residencies there's a possibility that the only option you'd have after a DO is a primary care residency from some osteopathic hospital in the middle of nowhere.

In my opinion, today osteopathic undergraduate and gradaute medical education is in a crisis. While the medical schools are usually adequate, the GME programs are poorly structured for the most part. And until that happens, more and more DO graduates will be seeking ACGME-accreditied residencies.

In any event, we have two systems of educating physicians in the United States. They aren't always equal on every aspect, but in all likelihood, competitive residencies will be awarded to the hardest working medical student, whehter he is an MD or DO.

 

[travoltage]

I don't think a pre-med is in any position to tell any physician what they should be grateful for.

i guess if a DO feels he is attacked by a pre-med, than we have a problem...

i completely agree with castro, that is what i meant the whole time, im sorry if you all misinterpreted what i was trying to get across. nobody ever told the acgme to open their residencies, if it wasnt for them, DO's would literally have almost no post graduate training opportunities, so thats why they should be grateful

 

[San_Juan_Sun]

i guess if a DO feels he is attacked by a pre-med, than we have a problem...

i completely agree with castro, that is what i meant the whole time, im sorry if you all misinterpreted what i was trying to get across. nobody ever told the acgme to open their residencies, if it wasnt for them, DO's would literally have almost no post graduate training opportunities, so thats why they should be grateful

The issue isn't you attacking anybody (I guess you think pretty highly of yourself). It's a premed telling physicians how they should feel about their ACGME graduate medical education. You don't have the experience required to tell anybody what to think.

To address the issue, ACGME residencies accept FMGs and DOs for one reason only: $$$ and slave labor. Yes, we get an education out of the deal, but make no mistake that residency is an indentured servitude as much as a training modality.

 

[RajMahal]

i guess if a DO feels he is attacked by a pre-med, than we have a problem...

i completely agree with castro, that is what i meant the whole time, im sorry if you all misinterpreted what i was trying to get across. nobody ever told the acgme to open their residencies, if it wasnt for them, DO's would literally have almost no post graduate training opportunities, so thats why they should be grateful

First of all, I do not feel attacked, but I disagree with your statement.

The fact is that there are residency spots every year which go unfilled. Those gaps (for purposes of slave labor and money) need to be filled by physicians other than US MD grads, whether they be FMG's or DO's. The problem is, you can't just say, "you guys can only have the leftovers in the scramble" (well i suppose they could). You have to open it up and give them an equal opportunity to compete for all residencies. Therefore, when you say that DO's and FMG's are qualified physicians, you can't say it with any sort of caveat--they're qualified physicians, and they have open season on all available residency positions, whether the programs want to consider them or not, they can at least pay the application fee.

That being said, I agree with Castro that DO GME is in shambles and needs to be revamped in a big way.

 

[Castro Viejo]

To address the issue, ACGME residencies accept FMGs and DOs for one reason only: $$$ and slave labor. Yes, we get an education out of the deal, but make no mistake that residency is an indentured servitude as much as a training modality.

Believe me. No one knows about indentured servitude better than a surgical resident.

But while money and relatively cheap labor were great reasons to start up residency programs in the past, this doesn't explain why or how ACGME accredited programs ever opened up to osteopathic medical students. On an individual hospital basis I'm sure there was a strong desire to hire anyone to fill open spots in hospital residency programs, but unless the AMA/ACGME approved of it, it wasn't going to happen.

And in today's healthcare environment and heavy regulation from the ACGME and the various RRCs (in terms of not only work hours but educational goals) for different programs, all institutions are much more accountable for their residency programs. This means that at some places a residency program may no longer be as attractive as, say, 20 to 30 years ago when there just wasn't as much oversight. Some institutions have thought it better, after crunching some numbers, that hiring more ancillary staff/physician extenders (i.e., PAs, NPs, etc.) may work out to be a better deal for them.

 

[Castro Viejo]

That being said, I agree with Castro that DO GME is in shambles and needs to be revamped in a big way.

With CMS at least itching to slash GME funding and the AOA and ACGME fighting over the same dollar to sponsor postgraduate training programs, fixing osteopathic GME is a huge uphill battle.

I suppose that's why the AOA has agreed to "dual-accreditation" so as not to erode its membership base since the majority of DOs take ACGME positions in training.

Although highly unlikely, there may come a day when hostilities between the AMA and the AOA could resurface (a la 1890-1970) and all access to ACGME programs will be restricted to US MDs, and then what? The current state of osteopathic GME doesn't even have enough training spots for the number of graduates they're turning out each year! And the AOA is approving all sorts of new schools (even a for profit institution like Rocky Vista University), branch campuses of existing ones (LECOM-Bradenton, PCOM-Georgia, etc.), and undergoing an all too rapid expansion of osteopathic schools in my opinion.

 

[Blade28]

Why is everyone ignoring the obvious solution to this problem?

https://dotomd.com/home.cfm?CFID=1908882&CFTOKEN=10171134

Priceless!

 

[traxtar511]

Okay, then I'll say it.

DOs on SDN spend a lot of time telling everyone about how they are equal to MDs in training and intelligence. I agree. But the flip side is that the DO community has been very careful to advocate integration only in areas where it is beneficial to their community, while carefully maintaining "seperate but equal" status where it suits their needs.

There are many MDs who would like to learn more about OMM, explore the osteopathic philosophy, and work in the prestigious osteopathic residencies (ie - PCOM). Yet the Osteopathic community has willfully shut Allopaths out from their training programs.

If we're so equal, then why not set up a similar system whereby MDs could apply to the Osteo match, after taking COMLEX? It is slap in the face to your "colleagues", and the fact that Allopathic programs allow DOs into Allopathic residencies is quite magnanimous. So yes, you should be grateful.

exactly

 

[Castro Viejo]

DOs on SDN spend a lot of time telling everyone about how they are equal to MDs in training and intelligence. I agree. But the flip side is that the DO community has been very careful to advocate integration only in areas where it is beneficial to their community, while carefully maintaining "seperate but equal" status where it suits their needs.

If we're so equal, then why not set up a similar system whereby MDs could apply to the Osteo match, after taking COMLEX? It is slap in the face to your "colleagues", and the fact that Allopathic programs allow DOs into Allopathic residencies is quite magnanimous. So yes, you should be grateful.

(At the risk of degenerating this into the classic SDN MD vs. DO thread...)

I would have to agree. Not even a "thank you" for keeping the profession afloat by saving thousands of osteopathic physicians each year from having to do residencies they don't want to do in the first place. Since the AMA has backed down in its efforts to try and rid the world of osteopathy in the 1970s, the AOA has done nothing in return as a gesture of goodwill toward the AMA or to MDs in general. Instead the AMA and MDs all over the United States are constantly being subjected to anti-allopathic rhetoric that basically amounts to "DOs take the time to care about their patients. MDs only take time to treat your symptoms."

I'd like to see more cross pollination if truly the professions are equal. How about opening up some of those osteopathic residencies to MD applicants?

 

[Castro Viejo]

Why is everyone ignoring the obvious solution to this problem?

https://dotomd.com/home.cfm?CFID=1908882&CFTOKEN=10171134

This program preys on the insecurities of DOs in the U.S. It's similar to the 1960's California College of Osteopathic Physicians & Surgeons becoming the "California College of Medicine" and awarding MDs to about 2,500 DOs in the state. The problem with that was the "little m.d." was not recognized outside the State of California and many hospitals within the state refused to grant privileges to these DOs turned MDs. This was what ultimately killed the planned merger between the California Osteopathic Association and the California Medical Association.

Anyway, DOs silly enough to plop down the $25,000 to get this bullcrap MD should probably be warned that holding this diploma-mill MD still won't let you sign your charts as "John Doe, M.D." which, I believe, is the intended purpose of such a program.

 

[travoltage]

agreed

 

[Kubed]

Wow, first time in as long as I can remember that the surgery forum isn't welcoming to us DO students. I thought these type of threads only lived in the osteo and pre-osteo forums.

I think if you took a poll, I think the vast majority of DO students would have no problem with opening up DO residencies to MDs (and we're theoretically the ones with the most to "lose" by having them open to everyone). It would make state licensing/ specialty boards/ etc much, much easier. ... problem is we're not the ones holding the keys to the door, the old guard who think of themselves as religious prophets are blocking progress.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Wow, first time in as long as I can remember that the surgery forum isn't welcoming to us DO students. I thought these type of threads only lived in the osteo and pre-osteo forums.

I think if you took a poll, I think the vast majority of DO students would have no problem with opening up DO residencies to MDs (and we're theoretically the ones with the most to "lose" by having them open to everyone). It would make state licensing/ specialty boards/ etc much, much easier. ... problem is we're not the ones holding the keys to the door, the old guard who think of themselves as religious prophets are blocking progress.

HUH? Let's not turn this into something it isn't.

All students, from all countries, all types of degrees, are welcome in the surgery forum. I don't think anyone above was trying to be unwelcoming as all of work daily together.

The point being made above is that the problem isn't with DO students, DO residents or DO practicing physicians, but rather with the governing body, the AOA, that practices the separate but equal policy and refuses to open more quality osteopathic residencies while building new schools at every turn and with the various allopathic fellowship boards that refuse admission to those who've done an osteopathic residency.

 

[Southpaw]

Wow, first time in as long as I can remember that the surgery forum isn't welcoming to us DO students. I thought these type of threads only lived in the osteo and pre-osteo forums.

I think if you read a few posts up you'd see that wasn't the case at all.

 

[Castro Viejo]

Wow, first time in as long as I can remember that the surgery forum isn't welcoming to us DO students. I thought these type of threads only lived in the osteo and pre-osteo forums.

Absolutely NOTHING that's been posted so far has been anti-osteopathic.

I hope you're not seriously interpreting it that way.

 

[San_Juan_Sun]

Okay, then I'll say it.

DOs on SDN spend a lot of time telling everyone about how they are equal to MDs in training and intelligence. I agree. But the flip side is that the DO community has been very careful to advocate integration only in areas where it is beneficial to their community, while carefully maintaining "seperate but equal" status where it suits their needs.

I agree. The osteopathic world selectively collaborates with the allopathic world when it suits them.

There are many MDs who would like to learn more about OMM, explore the osteopathic philosophy, and work in the prestigious osteopathic residencies (ie - PCOM). Yet the Osteopathic community has willfully shut Allopaths out from their training programs.

This is a bit of a canard. I highly doubt that there's more than a handful of allopathic students interested in OMM. But I really have no objection to MD students applying to OMM residencies. It's their career to waste I guess.

If we're so equal, then why not set up a similar system whereby MDs could apply to the Osteo match, after taking COMLEX? It is slap in the face to your "colleagues", and the fact that Allopathic programs allow DOs into Allopathic residencies is quite magnanimous. So yes, you should be grateful.

A "slap in the face" is a bit of hyperbole, but I see where you are coming from. I still see DOs in ACGME residencies (as well as FMGs and MDs) receiving training for service, and not some noble gesture on the parts of the programs.

As for myself, I'm in an AOA general surgery residency. Being grateful to the ACGME system doesn't really even apply to me. And I don't really have any objection to MDs in the DO match (provided there is equal access and no "stigma" either way). The main point of my post is that it's ludicrous for a pre-med to lecture residents about the ins and outs of graduate medical education.

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

 

[travoltage]

The main point of my post is that it's ludicrous for a pre-med to lecture residents about the ins and outs of graduate medical education.

you have to got to be kidding me, all i am doing is stating my opinion on the matter, i think ive read enough into this to have a valid argument. do i need to be a med student or resident to have a say in this thread? absolutely not. also, i am not discussing the ins and outs of GME. i am just saying how DO have been given a privilege to partake in ACGME residencies, thats it. also, in no way have i been lecturing any residents (DO) about graduate medical education.

 

[San_Juan_Sun]

you have to got to be kidding me, all i am doing is stating my opinion on the matter, i think ive read enough into this to have a valid argument. do i need to be a med student or resident to have a say in this thread? absolutely not. also, i am not discussing the ins and outs of GME. i am just saying how DO have been given a privilege to partake in ACGME residencies, thats it. also, in no way have i been lecturing any residents (DO) about graduate medical education.

It's fine to ask questions and have an opinion, but you have to recognize when your opinions exceed the level of your experience. And in my opinion, it's very irritating when a premed tells physicians to whom and for what we should be thankful for. And when you do that repeatedly, it's called a lecture. See here:

DO's would literally have almost no post graduate training opportunities, so thats why they should be grateful

And here:

what i meant is that DO's should be grateful that they are allowed to partake in allopathic residencies

And here:

DO's should be grateful that allopathic agencies agreed to allow DO's to come into their workplace and get training from them

And here:

i think there is still stigma toward DO's in regards to allopathic residencies but DO's should be grateful that allopathic programs allow them to rotate and take residencies of theirs

By the way, you would know about DO stigma how exactly? As both a student and a resident I've rotated at allopathic programs and never had one iota of a stigma problem. So please tell me how you've discovered this stigma (reading SDN does not count). And then please explain why I should be grateful for tablescraps from a system that begrudgingly accepts me?

i cant figure out why people are so bashful of ct...i understand the long hours, the sick patients, the stressful lifestyle, etc. but thats what i live for!

Sure you do.

i was just curious as to DO's situation in this matter because that is my back up plan

Helpful advice: don't admit to this on your interviews. Some of us like being DOs.

 

[Anka]

you have to got to be kidding me, all i am doing is stating my opinion on the matter, i think ive read enough into this to have a valid argument. do i need to be a med student or resident to have a say in this thread? absolutely not. also, i am not discussing the ins and outs of GME. i am just saying how DO have been given a privilege to partake in ACGME residencies, thats it. also, in no way have i been lecturing any residents (DO) about graduate medical education.

Don't stress too much about it -- if they can't make an arguement based on the data, and they can't make an arguement based on logic... that's when they throw in heirarchy. So, consider the arguement won and move on

 

[travoltage]

By the way, you would know about DO stigma how exactly? As both a student and a resident I've rotated at allopathic programs and never had one iota of a stigma problem. So please tell me how you've discovered this stigma (reading SDN does not count). And then please explain why I should be grateful for tablescraps from a system that begrudgingly accepts me?

this has nothing to do with DO stigma. i have not personally experienced any stigma (since im not a med student or resident yet) but from the MD's ive shadowed (1 being professor of surgery at uic) said that they give much more leniency and preference in residency placement (gen. surgery and assuming other surgical residencies) to MD's than DO (i guess you can say thats stigma), but fine, you won this point....when im ms3/ms4 or resident, ill be sure to let you know if i personally have seen any stigma. now onto the next point, i was never saying you were getting tablescraps, in fact i never criticized any of your residencies, etc. i was just saying that if acgme never allowed DO's into their residencies, there would be probably much fewer DO's and the osteopathic doctor would probably be almost non existent...40% of DO's go into ACGME residencies, where would those 40% go if they werent allowed into ACGME?

 

[Castro Viejo]

40% of DO's go into ACGME residencies, where would those 40% go if they werent allowed into ACGME?

I saw the same number quoted in a JAOA article about osteopathic GME, but the number doesn't jive with NRMP data. According to the NRMP about 2,500 unique applications are filed for PGY1 positions by osteopathic applicants in ACGME programs and the match rate is 70%. There are about 2,600 osteopathic seniors in any given year with the current number of DO schools out there.

So the 30% who don't match to ACGME spots presumably head into AOA programs, so where does the AOA come up with only 40% heading into MD programs? Are they counting the "dual-accredited" programs as AOA when they're really adminstered and responsible to the ACGME? Hmmm... The numbers just don't make sense.

 

[San_Juan_Sun]

i was just saying that if acgme never allowed DO's into their residencies, there would be probably much fewer DO's and the osteopathic doctor would probably be almost non existent

This I can agree with.

Props to you for starting this thread and thinking about some pretty complex questions in your future. You're ahead of the game right now and it will serve you well. Best of luck.

 

[travoltage]

Best of luck.

i dont need luck

 

[JayneCobb]

I saw the same number quoted in a JAOA article about osteopathic GME, but the number doesn't jive with NRMP data. According to the NRMP about 2,500 unique applications are filed for PGY1 positions by osteopathic applicants in ACGME programs and the match rate is 70%. There are about 2,600 osteopathic seniors in any given year with the current number of DO schools out there.

So the 30% who don't match to ACGME spots presumably head into AOA programs, so where does the AOA come up with only 40% heading into MD programs? Are they counting the "dual-accredited" programs as AOA when they're really adminstered and responsible to the ACGME? Hmmm... The numbers just don't make sense.

Having the rest of the NRMP data helps to solve the confusion.

Osteopaths 2,398
Withdrew 606
No Ranking 140
Active Applicants 1,652
Matched PGY-1; 1,136
Unmatched PGY-1; 516

​

1136/~2600 = ~43%

and just an interesting number 42% of the 2,189 (919) osteopathic pgy-1/intern spots went unfilled last year

 

[Misterioso]

Absolutely NOTHING that's been posted so far has been anti-osteopathic.

I hope you're not seriously interpreting it that way.

Maybe nothing that been "posted" has been anti-osteopathic, since people know that would probably elicit a TOS violation. But you gotta read between the lines and subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) insinuations. That's where the anti-DO stuff comes out.

Kind of like in the real world where people don't come right out and admit their true feelings about a different race or ethnicity because they know they'd face an onslaught from the P.C. regime, but their subtle and indirect actions leave no unanswered questions about what they truly think.

Just because people don't explicitly say it doesn't mean they don't think it.

 

[Castro Viejo]

Having the rest of the NRMP data helps to solve the confusion.

Osteopaths 2,398
Withdrew 606
No Ranking 140
Active Applicants 1,652
Matched PGY-1; 1,136
Unmatched PGY-1; 516

​

1136/~2600 = ~43%

and just an interesting number 42% of the 2,189 (919) osteopathic pgy-1/intern spots went unfilled last year

Thanks. That data is very helpful.

 

[Castro Viejo]

Maybe nothing that been "posted" has been anti-osteopathic, since people know that would probably elicit a TOS violation. But you gotta read between the lines and subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) insinuations. That's where the anti-DO stuff comes out.

Kind of like in the real world where people don't come right out and admit their true feelings about a different race or ethnicity because they know they'd face an onslaught from the P.C. regime, but their subtle and indirect actions leave no unanswered questions about what they truly think.

Just because people don't explicitly say it doesn't mean they don't think it.

Yes, I suppose. In any event, so long as it's not explicit, everyone should just be happy.

 

[smq123]

i dont need luck

Maybe not. But a little humility wouldn't kill you.

Without some humility, the whole "MD vs. DO" question is going to be moot for you, since you won't be either.

 

[beastmaster]

I'd like to see more cross pollination if truly the professions are equal. How about opening up some of those osteopathic residencies to MD applicants?

Which spots would you like, the FP spots that go unfilled every year? Or the ENT spots that take 1 DO per year. Despite my high USMLE scores, and no matter how strong my application, reality is that the majority of allopathic programs will never really consider me. But hey, at least I'm allowed to apply, right? How grateful I am. I'm all for cross-polination.

If we're so equal, then why not set up a similar system whereby MDs could apply to the Osteo match, after taking COMLEX? It is slap in the face to your "colleagues", and the fact that Allopathic programs allow DOs into Allopathic residencies is quite magnanimous. So yes, you should be grateful.

You're in ortho, right? Couple years ago, one of our top upperclassmen applied ortho. Top boards, 5 pubs from research at a prestigious university hospital. Applied 100 programs, 5 interviews. How magnanimous. You can't seriously believe that we're the ones slapping you in the face?

 

[travoltage]

You're in ortho, right? Couple years ago, one of our top upperclassmen applied ortho. Top boards, 5 pubs from research at a prestigious university hospital. Applied 100 programs, 5 interviews. How magnanimous. You can't seriously believe that we're the ones slapping you in the face?

i have yet to do all the matching and stuff once i get into med school, however, maybe for that given year the allopathic ortho residencies had a high volume of qualified allopathic applicants...i would imagine (ive shadowed MD's who have told me, one being chief of pediatrics at uic) that they take preference to the allopathic since he/she comes from a similar background, but i dont believe your friends situation is the norm (since you say he is so qualified), maybe there was some other variable that the 100 programs didnt like, but normally, im pretty sure hardly any DO's would match into a MD residency

 

[Castro Viejo]

Which spots would you like, the FP spots that go unfilled every year? Or the ENT spots that take 1 DO per year. Despite my high USMLE scores, and no matter how strong my application, reality is that the majority of allopathic programs will never really consider me. But hey, at least I'm allowed to apply, right? How grateful I am. I'm all for cross-polination.

Yes, exactly.

You're in ortho, right? Couple years ago, one of our top upperclassmen applied ortho. Top boards, 5 pubs from research at a prestigious university hospital. Applied 100 programs, 5 interviews. How magnanimous. You can't seriously believe that we're the ones slapping you in the face?

You can't honestly be trying to imply that just because you're the "top upperclassmen" that you should be getting your pick of whatever the heck you want. That's just silly. There's more that goes into who gets what residency/fellowship than just numbers. I'll be the first to admit that sometimes it's as underhanded as who you know and who can make a phone call. So, despite your "top upperclassmen" not getting the spot he wanted, I don't think this is sufficient reason for you, as a representative of your profession, to get up in arms and implying how the allopathic profession is anything less than "magnanimous" in playing a very vital part of your postgraduate training.

As for who's slapping whom in the face, all anti-osteopathic language in AMA materials have been removed since the 1990s and yet the AOA continues to purchase advertisements that have anti-allopathic language in them.

http://www.osteopathic.org/index.cfm?PageID=mc_psa

So I believe that it's pretty "magnanimous" for a group of physicians (MDs) to continually bite their tongue when another group (DOs) constantly beat them over the head with these things and DESPITE this continue to have a more than professional relationship by training those who are qualified in allopathic residency programs.

 

[Southpaw]

but normally, im pretty sure hardly any DO's would match into a MD residency

you'll see fewer and fewer DOs as you go up the list of specialties with regards to competitiveness (ortho, ent, rads, rad onc, derm, plastics). Beast's example did seem somewhat of an outlier though for ortho. What do I know though...I'm still in med school.

smq was right though, humility will do you well as you climb the totem pole of medicine. And having luck on your side will never hurt you.

 

[Castro Viejo]

And to answer your question, I would love to do the one-year OMM fellowship.

So would I interestingly enough.

 

[Castro Viejo]

you'll see fewer and fewer DOs as you go up the list of specialties with regards to competitiveness (ortho, ent, rads, rad onc, derm, plastics).

You'll also see fewer FMGs...

Fewer state school grads...

Etc...

 

[beastmaster]

You don't think I have stories like that for Ortho (and Plastics, and ENT, and Neurosurg) from the Allopathic world? The competitiveness is absolutely brutal. Look at the Charting Match Outcomes. The "top upperclassman" your describe is the average Orthopaedic Surgery applicant in the NRMP.

Please stop quoting me on that. I used the phrasing to protect an identity. he was not an average applicant, according to his CV. If an MD with those stats had interview invitations to count on only one hand you'd laugh.

Spoke to an ortho guy who works with a PD at a NY program just a few weeks ago. Said the PD will not take a DO into the program, no matter what. I've heard that about 4 different programs in NYC already, and I haven't even asked around. I'm just an MS3 with eyes and ears open.

My only point was that it's not so black and white as MD residencies are open to DOs, but DO residencies are not open to MDs.

And for god sake, viejo, stop quoting AOA bulletpoints. We didn't write that crap.

 

[Misterioso]

You'll also see fewer FMGs...

Fewer state school grads...

Etc...

Nothing wrong with that. You want to get into one of the competitive U.S. M.D. residencies then go to a competetive U.S. M.D. school and do very well.

It's generous enough we even let D.O. and FMGs a chance at our competitive residencies and sometimes take their best ones, when they don't do the same. We're barred from D.O. residencies and good luck getting into the same competitive residency in most foreign countries...they'll glady tell you to take a hike since it's reserved only for their citizens graduating from their med schools.

 

[travoltage]

one of the urological surgeons i shadowed explicitly told me, you need a good score on your uslme to get even considered for a top residency, but he stressed that knowing the right people on top of that is crucial. i'm not sure if thats the case for all of you, but it made sense to me what he said. if you where the chief of some surgical department hiring new residents, who would you choose....a student you recognize and remember who rotated through the program your at or some random individual. is this the case most of the time? good scores, good grades, and good connections?