Cards

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24858

I know I havent even graduated yet, but if anyone has any pluses and minuses of doing a cards fellowship I would love to hear them.
I think I would really be interested in doing a cards fellowship.
 
MeaCulpa said:
I know I havent even graduated yet, but if anyone has any pluses and minuses of doing a cards fellowship I would love to hear them.
I think I would really be interested in doing a cards fellowship.

Pluses: Get to see/manage very sick patients, TEE training.

Minuses: One year sacrifice of salary, learn to do things the academic way not necessarily what you will do in private practice, program dependent learning (some treat you as an attending, others as a resident, still others as a true fellow).
 
are there any substantial economic benefits from doing a cards fellowship? don't include opportunity cost in your answer. just salary differences etc.
 
cfdavid said:
are there any substantial economic benefits from doing a cards fellowship? don't include opportunity cost in your answer. just salary differences etc.

I know of only a few groups that will differentiate their salaries among group members if there is a distinction in training among some such as a CT fellowship. It could help you get into a group that may be more stringent in its hiring practice and groups that may have a higher income than others. That being said, if you are well trained in residency, that may obviate the need for the CT fellowship and still make you competitive in the job search process.
 
UTSouthwestern said:
I know of only a few groups that will differentiate their salaries among group members if there is a distinction in training among some such as a CT fellowship. It could help you get into a group that may be more stringent in its hiring practice and groups that may have a higher income than others. That being said, if you are well trained in residency, that may obviate the need for the CT fellowship and still make you competitive in the job search process.


This is very true. Cards fellowship in my mind is a waste of time unless you didn't get very much training in your residency and really want to do alot of cards cases.
I generally feel like anesthesia fellowships are not that important/necessary except for pain. But if you are at a residency program with a lot of fellows then your exposure to those cases (cards, peds, etc) is very limited usually. In this case I can see doing a fellowship. This is why I have recommended going to a residency program without all the fellowships so that you are the one doing the cases and not the fellows. In my residency class the only ones that did feloowships were the ones that wanted to do pain or couldn't get a JOB. 😱
 
MeaCulpa said:
wow,
that is interesting noyac.
I am most likely not in the remotest chance interested in dealing with pain pts for the rest of my life, I leave that to those who want to make the big $$$.
If you dont do pain, can you still do some pain procedures?
I am going to a residency program without many fellows except for critical care and pain, I am going to Baystate, so you think even if I want to go to a practice that is non academic that does heart cases I could still be hired, or would be hired? Does being a DO mean that I should do a fellowship anyway?
How important is how you do on you inservice exams when you go to get a job? Or is the fact that you are board certified the biggest measure?


Board cert is most important.
I did pain procedure for a few years and still do some (stellates, lumbar sympathetics, etc, etc) currently. I didn't do a fellowship but I did 6 months of pain in my CA-3 year. We had 2 pain fellows and tons of pts so I got lots of experience.
I can't answer the DO question b/c I don't know the answer.
Inservice exams don't mean jack when you get out. But if you rock it the attendings will get off your back.
 
What happens in the 'real world' as far as TEE in heart as well as non-heart cases? If you're not echo certified, certainly you can use the echo, and alter your management accordingly, correct? Is it billable if provided by a non-certified provider? I'm pretty clueless on this aspect being in the realm of academia.
 
TEE is a great tool. With that being said, I only used it on valve cases. I think most people certified in TEE use it on all hearts as well as cases with poor cardiac function. Billing for TEE has dropped as well. But you are not using it for billing purposes.
 
Totally agree with Noyac on the residency programs without tons of fellows. At a program the size of UTSW, we had two pain fellows, one or two cardiac fellows, two pedi fellows, one to two OB fellows, and 55-60 CA-1 to CA-3 residents. With the volume of cases at just Parkland alone, you are guaranteed to get enough of any case type you want. Yes, unfortunately, the ones that went into fellowship tended to be the ones who either really loved the subspecialty or the ones who couldn't get a job.

Your job search will be greatly eased if you can show your prospective employers/partners that you have adequate case loads to achieve proficiency with certain case types. Don't lie on your CV; we check these numbers out. One of my friends applied to a group in town and gave me his CV to review at which time, with simple math, I added up the months of subspecialty and general anesthesia he purported to have experienced and it added up to 42 months. Instant DQ.

If you want to do hearts without a fellowship, be damn sure that you are at the very least very comfortable manipulating the probe and acquiring all of the SCA mandated windows of examination of the heart and be sure that you have at the minimum 50-100 complete, documented hearts. Please don't do pedi hearts without a pedi fellowship altogether.

At least in Dallas, the hospitals require evidence of some type of TEE training, either the San Diego SCA TEE course, a letter from your cardiac director stating your proficiency in TEE, etc. Without it, you will be denied TEE priveleges.

TEE is not something you will bill for any significant amount of compensation. A medicare patient will pay about $45 for the complete, documented TEE exam, a private insurance patient will pay about $200-$250. For you PP guys using TEE, YOU MUST PUT "DIAGNOSTIC TEE PLACED" SOMEWHERE IN YOUR NARRATIVE in order for Medicare to pay out even the $45. Otherwise it is considered purely a monitoring device that cannot be billed for by the anesthesiologist (i.e. TEE = EKG = pulse oximetry, etc.).

I place a TEE in all of my hearts because on or off pump I encode 440.0 on the ICD coding (aortic atherosclerosis) as the primary diagnostic concern for which I am using the TEE. That is sufficient justification for using and billing for TEE services. Just this year alone (January through April), TEE in just my on or off pump CABG's has yielded 3 left atrial myxoma's, a Eustacian valve obstructing IVC cannula placement with subsequent IVC tear after surgeon's generous use of brutane to place the cannula, primum ASD with coronary sinus defect, clinically significant secundum/PFO defects, and one case of undiagnosed Ebstein's anomaly. Aside from being educational both to myself and the CT surgeon, it is truly an extra layer of safety that has allowed me to quickly diagnose and/or prevent problems from arising.

Case in point: During one OPCABG last month, the patient's systemic pressure suddenly dropped with sudden moderate MR, PAP rise, and ST segment elevation in primarily the lateral leads. Discussion of air embolus, coronary plaque embolization, etc. ensue but all appropriate therapeutic meds were already on board (NTG infusion at steady state, etc.). Adjusting the TEE from a 2C view to classic 4C and 5C views shows the culprit: A balled up and fully soaked lap sponge compressing the distal portion of the circ graft. Lap removed, instant ST segment normalization, pressures restored.

Regarding the issue of being a DO versus MD, ask about the group's policy before you waste your time and energy applying. Some groups traditionally do not hire DO's and it is in your best interest to find this out early to avoid wasting your time. Many will not come out and say that, but will hint to you that it is the case when they say they are not hiring despite a five month ad on Gaswork.
 
Noyac said:
This is very true. Cards fellowship in my mind is a waste of time unless you didn't get very much training in your residency and really want to do alot of cards cases.
I generally feel like anesthesia fellowships are not that important/necessary except for pain. But if you are at a residency program with a lot of fellows then your exposure to those cases (cards, peds, etc) is very limited usually. In this case I can see doing a fellowship. This is why I have recommended going to a residency program without all the fellowships so that you are the one doing the cases and not the fellows. In my residency class the only ones that did feloowships were the ones that wanted to do pain or couldn't get a JOB. 😱

I don't think an anesthesiologist after resdiency is prepared to be an intensivist without fellowship training....no matter how good your residency experience was.
 
militarymd said:
I don't think an anesthesiologist after resdiency is prepared to be an intensivist without fellowship training....no matter how good your residency experience was.

Probably not. A full year of ICU/CCU/TCU/CVICU, etc. compared to one month on, several months off, back to ICU, etc. forces you to broaden and deepen your knowledge base and perceptions.
 
:scared:
militarymd said:
I don't think an anesthesiologist after resdiency is prepared to be an intensivist without fellowship training....no matter how good your residency experience was.


I agree, I could have added CCM to the list. 🙂
 
Noyac,
Any reasons some of your fellow grads had a difficult time finding jobs whereas others didnt? What was it that seperated the wheat from the chaff, or was there nothing really, just bad luck?
 
Hey UT I've always learned a lot from your comments but i have to say this one takes the cake...Abbsolument Incroyable!!! . I am only a CA2 and was wondering what book(s) you would recommend for deftness at the TEE...I mean I was ecstatic when I was able to diagnose a small myxoma but after reading your post there is little question in my mind I am still @ triple A here🙂 . JPP, Mil, Zippy & Noyac your imputs will be greatly appreciated.


UTSouthwestern said:
Totally agree with Noyac on the residency programs without tons of fellows. At a program the size of UTSW, we had two pain fellows, one or two cardiac fellows, two pedi fellows, one to two OB fellows, and 55-60 CA-1 to CA-3 residents. With the volume of cases at just Parkland alone, you are guaranteed to get enough of any case type you want. Yes, unfortunately, the ones that went into fellowship tended to be the ones who either really loved the subspecialty or the ones who couldn't get a job.

Your job search will be greatly eased if you can show your prospective employers/partners that you have adequate case loads to achieve proficiency with certain case types. Don't lie on your CV; we check these numbers out. One of my friends applied to a group in town and gave me his CV to review at which time, with simple math, I added up the months of subspecialty and general anesthesia he purported to have experienced and it added up to 42 months. Instant DQ.

If you want to do hearts without a fellowship, be damn sure that you are at the very least very comfortable manipulating the probe and acquiring all of the SCA mandated windows of examination of the heart and be sure that you have at the minimum 50-100 complete, documented hearts. Please don't do pedi hearts without a pedi fellowship altogether.

At least in Dallas, the hospitals require evidence of some type of TEE training, either the San Diego SCA TEE course, a letter from your cardiac director stating your proficiency in TEE, etc. Without it, you will be denied TEE priveleges.

TEE is not something you will bill for any significant amount of compensation. A medicare patient will pay about $45 for the complete, documented TEE exam, a private insurance patient will pay about $200-$250. For you PP guys using TEE, YOU MUST PUT "DIAGNOSTIC TEE PLACED" SOMEWHERE IN YOUR NARRATIVE in order for Medicare to pay out even the $45. Otherwise it is considered purely a monitoring device that cannot be billed for by the anesthesiologist (i.e. TEE = EKG = pulse oximetry, etc.).

I place a TEE in all of my hearts because on or off pump I encode 440.0 on the ICD coding (aortic atherosclerosis) as the primary diagnostic concern for which I am using the TEE. That is sufficient justification for using and billing for TEE services. Just this year alone (January through April), TEE in just my on or off pump CABG's has yielded 3 left atrial myxoma's, a Eustacian valve obstructing IVC cannula placement with subsequent IVC tear after surgeon's generous use of brutane to place the cannula, primum ASD with coronary sinus defect, clinically significant secundum/PFO defects, and one case of undiagnosed Ebstein's anomaly. Aside from being educational both to myself and the CT surgeon, it is truly an extra layer of safety that has allowed me to quickly diagnose and/or prevent problems from arising.

Case in point: During one OPCABG last month, the patient's systemic pressure suddenly dropped with sudden moderate MR, PAP rise, and ST segment elevation in primarily the lateral leads. Discussion of air embolus, coronary plaque embolization, etc. ensue but all appropriate therapeutic meds were already on board (NTG infusion at steady state, etc.). Adjusting the TEE from a 2C view to classic 4C and 5C views shows the culprit: A balled up and fully soaked lap sponge compressing the distal portion of the circ graft. Lap removed, instant ST segment normalization, pressures restored.

Regarding the issue of being a DO versus MD, ask about the group's policy before you waste your time and energy applying. Some groups traditionally do not hire DO's and it is in your best interest to find this out early to avoid wasting your time. Many will not come out and say that, but will hint to you that it is the case when they say they are not hiring despite a five month ad on Gaswork.
 
EV-Stentor said:
Hey UT I've always learned a lot from your comments but i have to say this one takes the cake...Abbsolument Incroyable!!! . I am only a CA2 and was wondering what book(s) you would recommend for deftness at the TEE...I mean I was ecstatic when I was able to diagnose a small myxoma but after reading your post there is little question in my mind I am still @ triple A here🙂 . JPP, Mil, Zippy & Noyac your imputs will be greatly appreciated.

Would highly recommend Albert Perrino's TEE handbook. Great introduction. Follow that with Sidebotham's TEE handbook and CD ROM.

Hopefully, your institution has both books in the library and has the SCA's TEE conference on the 30 DVD set that is sold annually. If not, you should be able to request that they purchase it from the SCA, although I would ask for a year other than this year (2006) as inclement weather along the east coast kept many lecturers at home for the first couple of days.
 
TEE is an awesome tool (he said TOOL :laugh: )in the OR. I used it in training often but as I said, I only used it in valves during PP. We used swans mostly in the CABG's and this was for post-op management more than anything. I didn't see the need for both a swan and a TEE. I know, this can be argued at length but thats my take on it. So therefore, I have lost some TEE skills I'm sure do to lack of use. But my curent gig doesn't have a heart program so thats fine.
When I was in training I did a cards elective and arranged the oportunity to do a buttload of TEE's. I learned how to operate the TEE from the techs and how to read them from the cardiologists (even though they went over my head). I would recommend this for those of you interested in TEE and doing alot of hearts after residency.
 
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