Career path

[PsyHike]

(I'm not entirely sure what "Help me decide" thread is about, so maybe this question belongs there)

Hello! I find myself becoming increasingly confused regarding my future career path. Right now I'm a first year Master's student at Forensic Psychology program. While being fascinated by the field, I have absolutely no idea what kind of career path to choose, and I get even more discouraged when reading about faculty research interests in different universities. I do not have a very solidified and specific research interest, it lies in the realm of severe and/or bizarre mental health issues, extraordinary crimes (specifically homicide), and the intersection of the two. The forensic psychologist whose interests are in line with mine recommends PsyD as it gives more detailed clinical training which he states you need for assessing the offenders in a meaningful way (this professor, however, does not take thesis students, unfortunately). Right now I am in US but will pretty surely move to Canada after my Master's. Looking at PhD prospects (there's only 1 PsyD in Canada and I don't think it's accredited), the outlook is grim: most professors are interested in normal range "way of life" kind of psychology or cognitive/biological aspects of psychology, which I find incorrigibly boring (sorry to everyone who deals with it! To each his own, I know). Simon Fraser seems to be the only university that is remotely connected to my interests, but applying to only 1 PhD program is pretty much setting myself up for a failure. I do not see myself as an expert witness in court and do not seek the fame of the newspapers (or worse - FBI agents kind of work). I am interested in the underlying factors of the crimes, how the offenders came to be, and how can we assess the risk better for those bizarre types of crime. If anyone has any kind of advice, should I pursue PhD "in spite" of advisor's interests, try to state my interests as is on the personal statement and hope for the best, or try some other strategy? Thank you!

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[entitlement]

The guy who developed the ERASOR (James Worling) used to be at the University of Toronto, not sure if he is still there, been many years since I've thought about this. Also, Robert Hare (PCL) is somewhere in Canada too or is that who is (was, he is probably retired now) at Simon Fraser? Simon Fraser by the way is a great program from what I hear.

 

[PsyHike]

The guy who developed the ERASOR (James Worling) used to be at the University of Toronto, not sure if he is still there, been many years since I've thought about this. Also, Robert Hare (PCL) is somewhere in Canada too or is that who is (was, he is probably retired now) at Simon Fraser? Simon Fraser by the way is a great program from what I hear.

Thanks for the advice! Hare is more psychopathy-inclined, if i recall correctly, and that's less of an interest of mine, but Simon Fraser definitely has one of the strongest programs in the field.

 

[smalltownpsych]

Being interested in studying this type of subject matter is fairly common, but getting paid for studying it is rare. I think that might be part of the difficulty you are facing. As a regular old clinical psychologist I have had the opportunity to interview at least one murderer of the bizarre type. Can't really give any details since they were technically a patient of mine, but can say that it was a fascinating case with a few exciting plot twists. I also have worked with severe mental illness of various types that included some criminal behavior and some exceptionally bizarre behavior. If that was what I wanted to focus on, then the opportunities are there, but it starts with more general foundation and training. Same with research. Starts with the general and then you carve out your niche as you progress. Hope that helps a bit.

 

[erg923]

(I'm not entirely sure what "Help me decide" thread is about, so maybe this question belongs there)

Hello! I find myself becoming increasingly confused regarding my future career path. Right now I'm a first year Master's student at Forensic Psychology program. While being fascinated by the field, I have absolutely no idea what kind of career path to choose, and I get even more discouraged when reading about faculty research interests in different universities. I do not have a very solidified and specific research interest, it lies in the realm of severe and/or bizarre mental health issues, extraordinary crimes (specifically homicide), and the intersection of the two. The forensic psychologist whose interests are in line with mine recommends PsyD as it gives more detailed clinical training which he states you need for assessing the offenders in a meaningful way (this professor, however, does not take thesis students, unfortunately).

Your psychologist friend is an idiot. Or at least markedly ignorant and divorced from current training realities.

Your interests, as you wrote them, are difficult to translate into any workable day-to-day job/career. This isn't CSI or one of those profiler shows.

 

[PsyHike]

Your psychologist friend is an idiot. Or at least markedly ignorant and divorced from current training realities.

Your interests, as you wrote them, are difficult to translate into any workable day-to-day job/career. This isn't CSI or one of those profiler shows.

Well, this is not a friend, but a professor with 40 years of experience in the field, still practicing and teaching.
My interests are translatable into the research field, as I have read quite a noticeable amount of research on the topic. I stated that I am not interested in any FBI jobs or profiling, I fully understand this is not a CSI show.

 

[erg923]

Well, this is not a friend, but a professor with 40 years of experience in the field, still practicing and teaching.
My interests are translatable into the research field, as I have read quite a noticeable amount of research on the topic. I stated that I am not interested in any FBI jobs or profiling, I fully understand this is not a CSI show.

I would hope that since you are apparently completing a forensically-oriented psychology program you are already aware that the "underlying factors" of most violent crimes are 1. pretty simple/straightforward 2. Pretty limited. Money/greed, love/lust, betrayal, probably accounts for 99% of violent crime. What underlying factors are you referring to? Violence perpetrated due to delusions? Exceedingly rare, and if so, "understanding" the delusion is really moot. In this case, a psychiatrist or clinical psychologist would be conducting a clinical assessment to assist in determining defendant's state of mind, presence of diminished capacity, competency to stand trial, etc. Is this something you are interested in doing? If so, then a ph.d or psy.d in clinical psychology will be necessary, as will learning a bunch of stuff that apparently is "boring" to you.

From a research perspective, this a very restricted range of population you seem to be interested in? Low Ns. Makes grant fundable research difficult. What exactly are you thinking in terms of how to "study" this academically and how to financially justify a position doing it? You seem to have shunned the field of psychopathy research, which is much more prevalent.

 

[PsyHike]

I would hope that since you are apparently completing a forensically-oriented psychology program you are already aware that the "underlying factors" of most violent crimes are 1. pretty simple/straightforward 2. Pretty limited. Money/greed, love/lust, betrayal, probably accounts for 99% of violent crime. What underlying factors are you referring to? Violence perpetrated due to delusions? Exceedingly rare, and if so, "understanding" the delusion is really moot. In this case, a psychiatrist or clinical psychologist would be conducting a clinical assessment to assist in determining defendant state of mind, presence of diminished capacity, competency to stand trial. Is this something you are interested in doing? If so, then a ph.d or psy.d in clinical psychology will be necessary, as will learning a bunch of stuff that apparently is "boring" to you.

From a research perspective, this a very restricted range of population you seem to be interested in? Low Ns. Makes grant fundable research difficult. What exactly are you thinking in terms of how do "study" this academically. You seem to have shunned the field of psychopathy research, which is much more prevalent.

Thank you! I am at my first year of MA, so I'm still learning the factors and the connection between mental health and the crimes. I am more inclined towards Clinical PhD or PsyD, as I mentioned, the question is - in terms of doing a doctoral degree in Canada, should I just go for PhD with advisor whose interests are different than mine or try to find someone more compatible? Because mostly what I can find is the interest in child psychology, sleep psychology, cognitive responses, etc., which has nothing to do even with severe mental illness. But maybe I don't know how to judge the faculty interests by their page, should I just present them with my interests and hope to find a connection?

I am involved in psychopathy research now, and it is not thrilling to me.

 

[erg923]

Thank you! I am at my first year of MA, so I'm still learning the factors and the connection between mental health and the crimes. I am more inclined towards Clinical PhD or PsyD, as I mentioned, the question is - in terms of doing a doctoral degree in Canada, should I just go for PhD with advisor whose interests are different than mine or try to find someone more compatible? Because mostly what I can find is the interest in child psychology, sleep psychology, cognitive responses, etc., which has nothing to do even with severe mental illness. But maybe I don't know how to judge the faculty interests by their page, should I just present them with my interests and hope to find a connection?

I am involved in psychopathy research now, and it is not thrilling to me.

I find it difficult to believe that no one in Canada is researching severe mental illness.

In the states you might want to look at USC, UCLA, Vanderbilt, Uof Maryland, Sam Houston State, Uof Florida, UofAlabama, Indiana University, among many others. All Ph.Ds. All highly competitive.

 

[PsyHike]

I find it difficult to believe that no one in Canada is researching severe mental illness.

In the states you might want to look at USC, Vanderbilt, Uof Maryland, Sam Houston State, Uof Florida, Indiana University, among many others

I will try to maybe expand my search to other regions, or perhaps something will change in two years.

Thank you for the recommendations in US!

 

[BuckeyeLove]

Canada is THE place for risk assessment research, both violence and sexual. check out simon fraser.

 

[PsyHike]

Being interested in studying this type of subject matter is fairly common, but getting paid for studying it is rare. I think that might be part of the difficulty you are facing. As a regular old clinical psychologist I have had the opportunity to interview at least one murderer of the bizarre type. Can't really give any details since they were technically a patient of mine, but can say that it was a fascinating case with a few exciting plot twists. I also have worked with severe mental illness of various types that included some criminal behavior and some exceptionally bizarre behavior. If that was what I wanted to focus on, then the opportunities are there, but it starts with more general foundation and training. Same with research. Starts with the general and then you carve out your niche as you progress. Hope that helps a bit.

Thanks! Your experience helps me to sort it out a little better

 

[PsyHike]

Canada is THE place for risk assessment research, both violence and sexual. check out simon fraser.

Thanks! Do you know of any universities that might be a fit in Ontario area as well?

 

[NotTheHoff]

The forensic psychologist whose interests are in line with mine recommends PsyD as it gives more detailed clinical training which he states you need for assessing the offenders in a meaningful way

This advice is a common misconception.

Simon Fraser is great but extremely competitive. U of Ottawa has a nice clinical program, the assistant director has a strong forensic background, and it is near some GREAT forensic training opportunities.

UOIT has a forensic psych Ph.D. program, but it is not a clinical program (and thus not license eligible).

 

[PsyHike]

This advice is a common misconception.

Simon Fraser is great but extremely competitive. U of Ottawa has a nice clinical program, the assistant director has a strong forensic background, and it is near some GREAT forensic training opportunities.

UOIT has a forensic psych Ph.D. program, but it is not a clinical program (and thus not license eligible).

Thank you for the advice!

 

[entitlement]

Just to add to what everyone else is saying, there is no evidence to suggest a PsyD will be better for this career versus a PhD.

Also, CUNY - John Jay's clinical PhD program has a heavy forensic focus but they are a relatively new program and I am not sure if they have received APA accreditation yet although knowing folks there, they should have no problem getting that.

I'm also not sure what about forensics intrigues you or if you really understand what forensic psychology is? 99% of forensic psychology (I know I am being facetious, but just making a point) has absolutely nothing to do with treating homicide as an outcome.

 

[PsyHike]

Just to add to what everyone else is saying, there is no evidence to suggest a PsyD will be better for this career versus a PhD.

Also, CUNY - John Jay's clinical PhD program has a heavy forensic focus but they are a relatively new program and I am not sure if they have received APA accreditation yet although knowing folks there, they should have no problem getting that.

I'm also not sure what about forensics intrigues you or if you really understand what forensic psychology is? 99% of forensic psychology (I know I am being facetious, but just making a point) has absolutely nothing to do with treating homicide as an outcome.

Thank you!

 

[NotTheHoff]

Also, CUNY - John Jay's clinical PhD program has a heavy forensic focus but they are a relatively new program and I am not sure if they have received APA accreditation yet although knowing folks there, they should have no problem getting that.

They are APA accredited.

 

[PsyDr]

Two thoughts:

1) Researching high intensity low frequency behaviors is one of the most difficult areas possible. The stats are ridiculous, the participants are hard to find, any results are difficult to generalize, etc.

2) you need a way to monetize your interests. A PsyD isn't going to land you a tenure track research position without some fluke. If you get into "bizarre" crimes, who is going to pay for your services? This is an entity who has suffered a rare event, has knowledge about this person with knowledge in this specific area, sees the benefit in knowledge, and has the resources to hire a person whose fees for an unspecified service have to be high enough to support a living when the events by nature are rare.

 

[PsyHike]

Two thoughts:

1) Researching high intensity low frequency behaviors is one of the most difficult areas possible. The stats are ridiculous, the participants are hard to find, any results are difficult to generalize, etc.

2) you need a way to monetize your interests. A PsyD isn't going to land you a tenure track research position without some fluke. If you get into "bizarre" crimes, who is going to pay for your services? This is an entity who has suffered a rare event, has knowledge about this person with knowledge in this specific area, sees the benefit in knowledge, and has the resources to hire a person whose fees for an unspecified service have to be high enough to support a living when the events by nature are rare.

Thanks for the input! I am weighting those thoughts as well, as I am trying to understand what career would be best to pursue in future in order to a) survive money-wise and b) be interested in what I do and not burn out in 10 years. Obviously no one is born with the complete knowledge about the field and the options in it, so I guess I will have to continue digging in and trying to find a way to combine those.

 

[FionaGoode]

I remember the days when I wanted to work in a setting with a population that was "Unique" and "interesting." However, I encourage you to consider what your actual day today work would look like, whether it be you are working with research participants or actual clinical patients. In my own life, I sit up at night or come home from work and worry about my patients and my decisions about my patients (should I have let that person leave? Was my assessment of risk good enough? Is this reportable?! Should I document that using these words?) I work with a primarily medical population.... I can't imagine how stressed and anxious I would be all the time if I was working with such a high-risk population. That might be right up your alley and something you can manage, but I encou age you took consider what that type of life would look like for the next 30 years before you decide upon this career path.

 

[deleted343839]

Thanks! Do you know of any universities that might be a fit in Ontario area as well?

Are you interested in sexual offending, by any chance? There are several folks at U. of Toronto who work in that field, but the training is probably better suited to someone at the intern or postdoc level. It's tough to sustain an academic career in that area but there are clinical opportunities (eg, mandated treatment programs, etc.) just about everywhere.

 

[PsyHike]

I remember the days when I wanted to work in a setting with a population that was "Unique" and "interesting." However, I encourage you to consider what your actual day today work would look like, whether it be you are working with research participants or actual clinical patients. In my own life, I sit up at night or come home from work and worry about my patients and my decisions about my patients (should I have let that person leave? Was my assessment of risk good enough? Is this reportable?! Should I document that using these words?) I work with a primarily medical population.... I can't imagine how stressed and anxious I would be all the time if I was working with such a high-risk population. That might be right up your alley and something you can manage, but I encou age you took consider what that type of life would look like for the next 30 years before you decide upon this career path.

Thank you for the advice! I will try to gain more insight about how I want my life to look like (although I imagine this would be difficult as I will not have any hands on experience until much later down the road), but your description of the "after work" life and worries is very helpful!

 

[PsyHike]

Are you interested in sexual offending, by any chance? There are several folks at U. of Toronto who work in that field, but the training is probably better suited to someone at the intern or postdoc level. It's tough to sustain an academic career in that area but there are clinical opportunities (eg, mandated treatment programs, etc.) just about everywhere.

I do not know enough about the field of sexual offending to know whether or not I'd like to get involved, but I am planning to learn about it very soon. Thanks! I will keep your advice regarding U of Toronto in mind!

 

[WJPSYCH]

At your stage, you can probably develop an interest in almost anything related to the intersection of mental illness and the legal system. Don't get too bogged down with what you want to ideally research. Do look for researchers who study violence risk, sexual offending, domestic violence, serious and persistent mental illness, etc. And look for sites that have practicum experience in psychiatric hospitals to get exposure to forensic units and populations. Once you have clinical experience and see how systems work, you are in a better position to develop informed research questions that may lead to some applied benefit. Those two things can inform your choices of where to apply. There are plenty of options in the U.S. and Canada that fit the bill.

Also, I would start with really trying to grasp what forensic psychology is and what it is not. That is a huge pitfall for students at your stage, as (from what I've seen) naivety (naïveté for the pedants) will be one of the easiest disqualifying characteristics for faculty members picking from among plenty of exceptional students. It is so important to know what you are getting into and not to come across as someone who didn't do their homework. Here's the best primer I know on the issue: http://forensicpsychologist.blogspot.com/2014/09/forensic-psychology-is-it-career-for-me.html

Good luck!

 

[PsyHike]

At your stage, you can probably develop an interest in almost anything related to the intersection of mental illness and the legal system. Don't get too bogged down with what you want to ideally research. Do look for researchers who study violence risk, sexual offending, domestic violence, serious and persistent mental illness, etc. And look for sites that have practicum experience in psychiatric hospitals to get exposure to forensic units and populations. Once you have clinical experience and see how systems work, you are in a better position to develop informed research questions that may lead to some applied benefit. Those two things can inform your choices of where to apply. There are plenty of options in the U.S. and Canada that fit the bill.

Also, I would start with really trying to grasp what forensic psychology is and what it is not. That is a huge pitfall for students at your stage, as (from what I've seen) naivety (naïveté for the pedants) will be one of the easiest disqualifying characteristics for faculty members picking from among plenty of exceptional students. It is so important to know what you are getting into and not to come across as someone who didn't do their homework. Here's the best primer I know on the issue: http://forensicpsychologist.blogspot.com/2014/09/forensic-psychology-is-it-career-for-me.html

Good luck!

Thank you so much for a kind advice and direction! As you said, I really do need to learn more about forensic psychology, which I am trying to do now. And thanks for the link! Your reply has been overall very helpful and encouraging!

 

[Sendtrees]

I have to give you credit, NogitsuneX, for your ability to remain positive and grateful in the face of some fairly rude behavior here. It seems true, though, that your interests and clinical psychology in the day to day practice might not be a good fit. Did you ever think about novel-writing or screenplays? When you're the master of the story, you can pluck those low-Ns right out of the air! Think of it this way--a PsyD takes 5-6 years and will put you hundreds of thousands of dollars into debt. You can give yourself the same amount of time to write a thriller, work part-time, and go into no debt!

 

[PsyHike]

I have to give you credit, NogitsuneX, for your ability to remain positive and grateful in the face of some fairly rude behavior here. It seems true, though, that your interests and clinical psychology in the day to day practice might not be a good fit. Did you ever think about novel-writing or screenplays? When you're the master of the story, you can pluck those low-Ns right out of the air! Think of it this way--a PsyD takes 5-6 years and will put you hundreds of thousands of dollars into debt. You can give yourself the same amount of time to write a thriller, work part-time, and go into no debt!

Thank you for the compliment! And thanks for the unusual advice! It is a great field, the novel-writing one, and recently I have been to a talk held by K. Ramsland in a promotion of her new book - the topics she writes about sounds exciting, and it might be a great way to earn more now or to engage in this activity while retired. I would look into it as well as the psychology-inclined career.