Career Pivot to psych, looking to pursue PsyD- What are my chances?

[oulie]

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Hi all! I am a young professional (25F) looking to pivot into psychology. I graduated from college in 2021 but did not major in psychology. My GPA was 3.8 and I did some literature review sociology research.

Since then, I have been doing client work in the legal advocacy space. I worked assisting refugees and asylum seekers, doing intakes and casework and provided Spanish/English interpretation at psych evals, which I found fascinating. For the last few years, I have been working with veterans with PTSD and other service connected conditions who are struggling to get their benefits, including interviewing them about their different conditions and experience in the military. This work has made me realize that my true passion lies on the psychology side of advocacy, and I would love to be able to practice as a psychologist and do psychological assessments.

I will most likely apply to MSW/MHC programs this Fall/Winter. However, I am most interested in pursuing a PsyD-- I am deeply interested in clinical psychology and want to be able to provide testing and assessments. My family has offered to help me pay for school, and I have been living at home and saving for the last few years. I believe my 4 years of client experience with veterans and asylum seekers should count as clinical work for PsyD apps?

I have been researching different APA accredited PsyD programs (reviewing internship match rates, licensure rates, etc) and requirements and have reached out to local colleges about taking Summer courses as a non degree student to get started on those classes (and ideally make connections with professors to get at least some research experience going.) While taking classes, I was planning to study for the psych GRE and take it in the Fall.

Does this plan sound possible? And if I have a shot, I would really appreciate any information on which PsyD programs could be a good fit.

 

[WisNeuro]

Do you want to do testing/assessments primarily, or do you plan on being primarily doing intervention work?

 

[R. Matey]

Are you willing to relocate for a funded or at least partially funded Psy.D. program? These tend to be fairly competitive and can offer some quality training experiences.

 

[PsyDr]

1) You should do an SDN search on how much programs really care about clinical experience or the psych GRE.

2) I would highly encourage you to read the VA thread. The VA disability system is not well regarded, with a high number of fakers taking the resources from those who are legit. Statistically, 40% are faking.

 

[summerbabe]

With a strong undergrad GPA and relevant experiences, you are probably pretty competitive for many full self pay PsyDs, especially the large cohort programs that are not especially well regarded in the field (eg the Caribbean medical schools of our field).

But is it the best use of $150,000 to $300,000 dollars of tuition/living expenses depending on program and cost of living?

That’s a house or a good chunk of a house in many parts of the country, especially when the modal psychologist has their tuition waived and receives a stipend to attend school?

 

[futureapppsy2]

Statistically, 40% are faking.

Do you have a source for this?

 

[Sanman]

With a strong undergrad GPA and relevant experiences, you are probably pretty competitive for many full self pay PsyDs, especially the large cohort programs that are not especially well regarded in the field (eg the Caribbean medical schools of our field).

But is it the best use of $150,000 to $300,000 dollars of tuition/living expenses depending on program and cost of living?

That’s a house or a good chunk of a house in many parts of the country, especially when the modal psychologist has their tuition waived and receives a stipend to attend school?

Honestly, the first paragraph was true 4-5 yrs ago. Last cycle, I was reading about folks with similar GPAs and years of psych research experience being turned down since they did away with the GRE requirements. Not sure how much of that is back yet.

The OP's work experience seems more geared toward law school than psychology to me.

I don't hear a compelling reason for going PsyD vs midlevel other than "assessment". This is pretty vague. Most for profit schools are having trouble keeping any decent assessment profs around anyway. Without more detail and a better plan, I don't think that you will be engaging in much assessment in the future.

 

[WisNeuro]

Do you have a source for this?

That number tracks with my experience in my evals. Higher for younger, slightly lower for older neuro pts. Jehle has published somewhat on this.

 

[BuckeyeLove]

Statistically, 40% are faking.

My god....just unreal. A colleague of mine left after 10ish years. Said he couldn't deal with everyone rubber stamping the PTSD dx any longer... along with the angry entitlement.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Do you have a source for this?

In a small mTBI VA sample (~70 people I think), Denning & Shura (2019) found approximately 30-50% base rate of malingering of cognitive deficits. And broadly in medicolegal contexts, Larrabee, Millis, & Meyers (2009) have said that the base rate of invalidity is 40 +/- 10%, which is in line with with Mittenberg found back in the 90's or 00's (and various other studies since).

Anecdotally, like WisNeuro, this tracks with my experience, with some variation based on setting and subpopulation. Most recently, I found that folks in their 50's tended to be the worst "offenders." I have various hypotheses as to why.

 

[PsyDr]

Do you have a source for this?

Denning, J. H. and R. D. and Shura (2019). "Cost of malingering mild traumatic brain injury-related cognitive deficits during compensation and pension evaluations in the veterans benefits administration." Applied Neuropsychology: Adult 26(1): 1-16.

It has a table with all of the studies relevant to veterans. Their aggregated rate for both soldiers and veterans is 30%. In 2009, Larrabee reported 40% for compensation seeking settings.

 

[psych.meout]

Hi all! I am a young professional (25F) looking to pivot into psychology. I graduated from college in 2021 but did not major in psychology. My GPA was 3.8 and I did some literature review sociology research.

Since then, I have been doing client work in the legal advocacy space. I worked assisting refugees and asylum seekers, doing intakes and casework and provided Spanish/English interpretation at psych evals, which I found fascinating. For the last few years, I have been working with veterans with PTSD and other service connected conditions who are struggling to get their benefits, including interviewing them about their different conditions and experience in the military. This work has made me realize that my true passion lies on the psychology side of advocacy, and I would love to be able to practice as a psychologist and do psychological assessments.

I will most likely apply to MSW/MHC programs this Fall/Winter. However, I am most interested in pursuing a PsyD-- I am deeply interested in clinical psychology and want to be able to provide testing and assessments. My family has offered to help me pay for school, and I have been living at home and saving for the last few years. I believe my 4 years of client experience with veterans and asylum seekers should count as clinical work for PsyD apps?

I have been researching different APA accredited PsyD programs (reviewing internship match rates, licensure rates, etc) and requirements and have reached out to local colleges about taking Summer courses as a non degree student to get started on those classes (and ideally make connections with professors to get at least some research experience going.) While taking classes, I was planning to study for the psych GRE and take it in the Fall.

Does this plan sound possible? And if I have a shot, I would really appreciate any information on which PsyD programs could be a good fit.

I'm confused. If your "true passion" is the intersection of advocacy and psychology, how does being a psychologist focusing on assessment follow your passion?

 

[WisNeuro]

I'm confused. If your "true passion" is the intersection of advocacy and psychology, how does being a psychologist focusing on assessment follow your passion?

Good point, OP, unless you specifically want to do neuropsych assessments and/or research, I'd probably look at your midlevel options. The unfunded PsyD route won't really give you much more than the midlevel degree will.

 

[chicandtoughness]

Can you clarify what you mean by wanting to do assessments?

Based on your work experiences, you’ve probably seen “assessments” like CAPS-5 or SCID. I’m not sure what you meant by “psych evals” - are you talking about diagnostic intake sessions? Competency to stand trial evaluations?

Some of these things do not require a doctoral degree. As a properly trained midlevel you can do unstructured interviews and structured questionnaires just fine.

Now if we’re talking about neuropsych testing and full batteries (aka what we usually mean when we say assessments), that’s another thing. But it doesn’t seem to connect with your story about advocacy.

 

[Doctor Eliza]

If you are interested in advocacy, you might be happier in an MSW program than a PsyD program. MSWs tend to have a stronger focus on that sort of thing, so I would suggest seriously looking into and considering those programs.

 

[msc545]

I'm confused. If your "true passion" is the intersection of advocacy and psychology, how does being a psychologist focusing on assessment follow your passion?

Hi all! I am a young professional (25F) looking to pivot into psychology. I graduated from college in 2021 but did not major in psychology. My GPA was 3.8 and I did some literature review sociology research.

Since then, I have been doing client work in the legal advocacy space. I worked assisting refugees and asylum seekers, doing intakes and casework and provided Spanish/English interpretation at psych evals, which I found fascinating. For the last few years, I have been working with veterans with PTSD and other service connected conditions who are struggling to get their benefits, including interviewing them about their different conditions and experience in the military. This work has made me realize that my true passion lies on the psychology side of advocacy, and I would love to be able to practice as a psychologist and do psychological assessments.

I will most likely apply to MSW/MHC programs this Fall/Winter. However, I am most interested in pursuing a PsyD-- I am deeply interested in clinical psychology and want to be able to provide testing and assessments. My family has offered to help me pay for school, and I have been living at home and saving for the last few years. I believe my 4 years of client experience with veterans and asylum seekers should count as clinical work for PsyD apps?

I have been researching different APA accredited PsyD programs (reviewing internship match rates, licensure rates, etc) and requirements and have reached out to local colleges about taking Summer courses as a non degree student to get started on those classes (and ideally make connections with professors to get at least some research experience going.) While taking classes, I was planning to study for the psych GRE and take it in the Fall.

Does this plan sound possible? And if I have a shot, I would really appreciate any information on which PsyD programs could be a good fit.

I think your pl;an is a good one. I hope during the summer you can take some upper-division psych courses like learning, stats, physiological, clinical, etc. These will provide a solid foundation for your grad work and your A grades will impress grad school admitting committees.

I want to additionally give you some good reasons to get a PsyD or PhD (PhD is preferable IMO). Virtually all of the people telling you to just get a "mid-level" or MA degree themselves have doctoral degrees - so either they are implicitly admitting that they made a mistake and regret their decision to get the PsyD/PhD, or they simply do not want the competition. Either way, I find it a disingenuous recommendation at best that is all too prevalent here. People with MA degrees in Psychology tend to be limited in what they can do, at least in the state (CA) where I live, and apparently in many others as well.

Here are reasons to get a doctoral degree:

1. MONEY. You will simply make more money with a doctoral degree because you will have a higher rate of pay as a licensed Psychologist, and more opportunities to make money, especially in the legal system and/or in neuropsych. The additional money you make will more than offset the opportunity and actual cost of additional education.

2. Respect. This may not seem important until you don't get it. As a licensed Psychologist, you will have the presumption of competence and the freedom to make important decisions. I do a lot of legal work, and that PhD has opened a lot of doors for me that would otherwise have been closed. My professional opinions are sought after and listened to by others.

3. What does the AI think? I asked ChatGPT, "What are the benefits of being respected as a professional" ? (I asked because I am very tired, and I wanted some help with this response.) - Here is the AI opinion, which I fully concur with:

"Being respected as a professional brings a range of important benefits, both tangible and intangible. Here are some of the key advantages:

1. Increased Opportunities
   Respect often leads to greater visibility and trust, opening doors to promotions, leadership roles, collaborations, and new clients.
2. Stronger Relationships
   Colleagues, clients, and partners are more likely to engage positively and work collaboratively with someone they respect.
3. Influence and Credibility
   Your opinions and decisions carry more weight, making it easier to lead, negotiate, and drive change within your organization or field.
4. Job Security and Stability
   Respected professionals are often seen as valuable assets, which can translate into more stability during times of change or uncertainty.
5. Personal Satisfaction and Confidence
   Being respected can reinforce your sense of self-worth and professional identity, boosting motivation and morale.
6. Higher Compensation
   Professionals who are respected for their expertise and conduct are more likely to command higher salaries, bonuses, or consulting fees.
7. Autonomy and Trust
   With respect comes trust—respected professionals are often given more freedom to manage their time, methods, and decisions."
   
   I hope this is helpful.

 

[chicandtoughness]

(FWIW I am a masters level therapist making this recommendation. For what OP wants to do, a masters will get them admitted sooner, done and out working sooner, and has a better focus on the advocacy piece.)

 

[psych.meout]

I want to additionally give you some good reasons to get a PsyD or PhD (PhD is preferable IMO). Virtually all of the people telling you to just get a "mid-level" or MA degree themselves have doctoral degrees - so either they are implicitly admitting that they made a mistake and regret their decision to get the PsyD/PhD, or they simply do not want the competition. Either way, I find it a disingenuous recommendation at best that is all too prevalent here. People with MA degrees in Psychology tend to be limited in what they can do, at least in the state (CA) where I live, and apparently in many others as well.

Well, you must be right, those are definitely the only explanations for why people are recommending them. It's more proof that life is just choices with binary options. It's a solid heuristic with no logical flaws or drawbacks.

 

[WisNeuro]

Well, you must be right, those are definitely the only explanations for why people are recommending them. It's more proof that life is just choices with binary options. It's a solid heuristic with no logical flaws or drawbacks.

I mean, I am deeply worried about competition from someone who will practice in an area that in no way overlaps with mine.

Or maybe, people are recommending a course of action that will be far less expensive in terms of time and money. Particularly when doctoral level reimbursements are stagnant at best, and usually dropping over time when inflation controlled.

 

[psych.meout]

I mean, I am deeply worried about competition from someone who will practice in an area that in no way overlaps with mine.

I dunno. I feel very threatened by providers who offer all sorts of pseudoscience and cargo-cult "therapy" when I'm stuck with ESTs. Guess I'll have to fall back on all the other lucrative things I can do besides grinding out therapy with general psych patients.

I know some amazing midlevels to whom I would refer patients over some psychologists I know of who are in PP, but these midlevels tend to work at AMCs or other selective employers in my area.

Or maybe, people are recommending a course of action that will be far less expensive in terms of time and money. Particularly when doctoral level reimbursements are stagnant at best, and usually dropping over time when inflation controlled.

Or maybe they don't have the experience required to be competitive for a doctoral program and are not willing or interested in waiting to get that experience. And they also don't want to go into massive debt to whatever program would take them with their current qualifications, but a terminal master's degree would be just fine with it.

Or maybe they really hate research to the degree that they could not or would not do even just the required research milestones for a doctorate.

Or they are geographically restricted and aren't willing or able to move from their current location for any phase of doctoral training and would therefore have trouble getting into a doctoral program and matching for internship.

Or maybe they have young children or other family commitments that conflict with being able to attend class, be in the lab, go to practicum, and complete the other on-site responsibilities of doctoral training, while many terminal master's programs are more flexible and shorter.

Or they don't want to forgo years of lost income and retirement investment when a licensable master's degree would meet their same goals in less time, particularly are older/nontraditional students.

 

[Sanman]

I think your pl;an is a good one. I hope during the summer you can take some upper-division psych courses like learning, stats, physiological, clinical, etc. These will provide a solid foundation for your grad work and your A grades will impress grad school admitting committees.

I want to additionally give you some good reasons to get a PsyD or PhD (PhD is preferable IMO). Virtually all of the people telling you to just get a "mid-level" or MA degree themselves have doctoral degrees - so either they are implicitly admitting that they made a mistake and regret their decision to get the PsyD/PhD, or they simply do not want the competition. Either way, I find it a disingenuous recommendation at best that is all too prevalent here. People with MA degrees in Psychology tend to be limited in what they can do, at least in the state (CA) where I live, and apparently in many others as well.

Here are reasons to get a doctoral degree:

1. MONEY. You will simply make more money with a doctoral degree because you will have a higher rate of pay as a licensed Psychologist, and more opportunities to make money, especially in the legal system and/or in neuropsych. The additional money you make will more than offset the opportunity and actual cost of additional education.

2. Respect. This may not seem important until you don't get it. As a licensed Psychologist, you will have the presumption of competence and the freedom to make important decisions. I do a lot of legal work, and that PhD has opened a lot of doors for me that would otherwise have been closed. My professional opinions are sought after and listened to by others.

3. What does the AI think? I asked ChatGPT, "What are the benefits of being respected as a professional" ? (I asked because I am very tired, and I wanted some help with this response.) - Here is the AI opinion, which I fully concur with:

"Being respected as a professional brings a range of important benefits, both tangible and intangible. Here are some of the key advantages:

1. Increased Opportunities
   Respect often leads to greater visibility and trust, opening doors to promotions, leadership roles, collaborations, and new clients.
2. Stronger Relationships
   Colleagues, clients, and partners are more likely to engage positively and work collaboratively with someone they respect.
3. Influence and Credibility
   Your opinions and decisions carry more weight, making it easier to lead, negotiate, and drive change within your organization or field.
4. Job Security and Stability
   Respected professionals are often seen as valuable assets, which can translate into more stability during times of change or uncertainty.
5. Personal Satisfaction and Confidence
   Being respected can reinforce your sense of self-worth and professional identity, boosting motivation and morale.
6. Higher Compensation
   Professionals who are respected for their expertise and conduct are more likely to command higher salaries, bonuses, or consulting fees.
7. Autonomy and Trust
   With respect comes trust—respected professionals are often given more freedom to manage their time, methods, and decisions."
   
   I hope this is helpful.

1. Midlevels are also professionals. So your question to ChatGPT is already flawed.

2. My program was fully funded and cheaper than a masters. I will always be for the cheaper option.

3. The best option for me personally is for more people to get unfunded PsyDs. I have no loans and will be in private practice by then. With the impending VA collapse and PSLF cancellations, I will be able to offer all these folks a 50 percent split and they will take it to pay their mountain of loans.

 

[msc545]

1. Midlevels are also professionals. So your question to ChatGPT is already flawed.

2. My program was fully funded and cheaper than a masters. I will always be for the cheaper option.

3. The best option for me personally is for more people to get unfunded PsyDs. I have no loans and will be in private practice by then. With the impending VA collapse and PSLF cancellations, I will be able to offer all these folks a 50 percent split and they will take it to pay their mountain of loans.

 

[msc545]

Are you running a diploma mill or something like that ? One for mid-levels ? Your logic about the ChatGPt query being is itself flawed. Can you guess why ?

 

[msc545]

(FWIW I am a masters level therapist making this recommendation. For what OP wants to do, a masters will get them admitted sooner, done and out working sooner, and has a better focus on the advocacy piece.)

It will also pay them less and give them fewer opportunities over the long run. I love how people who couldn't make it into doctoral programs rationalize their second choices.

 

[chicandtoughness]

It will also pay them less and give them fewer opportunities over the long run. I love how people who couldn't make it into doctoral programs rationalize their second choices.

There’s no reason to insult me to try to prove a point.

I got into doctoral programs. I chose not to go because I applied for and got into *medical school* instead.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Mod Note: This is a reminder to please keep all posts professional and related to the topic at hand, and to avoid personal attacks and related comments. Thanks.

 

[Sanman]

Are you running a diploma mill or something like that ? One for mid-levels ? Your logic about the ChatGPt query being is itself flawed. Can you guess why ?

I wish I was. Running a diploma mill pays significantly better than being a psychologist.

 

[psych.meout]

Are you running a diploma mill or something like that ? One for mid-levels ?

Why does someone need to have an ulterior motive (e.g., profit, avoiding competition, regret about their own education) to recommending licensable terminal master's programs?

Why can't it be that there are legitimate reasons (those articulated above and others not listed) for someone to be a better fit with one of those programs over a PsyD or PhD in clinical psych?

Your logic about the ChatGPt query being is itself flawed. Can you guess why ?

Just because you don't respect any midlevels or regard them as professionals doesn't mean everyone else agrees with you.

It will also pay them less and give them fewer opportunities over the long run.

And that's not taking into account competing priorities, values, and limitations. People aren't and shouldn't be logic robots that decide on their education and careers based on only a single criterion, especially when that criterion is chosen by you and not them.

Taking your own argument to its logical conclusion, why didn't you become a physician instead of a psychologist? You could make significantly more money as a psychiatrist with the same effort and have more opportunities.

I love how people who couldn't make it into doctoral programs rationalize their second choices.

Do you really not see the irony here of insulting her like this after you previously cast aspersions that people were recommending master's programs as part of their own psychological issues regarding their careers and educations?

 

[msc545]

I wish I was. Running a diploma mill pays significantly better than being a psychologist.

It does until you get exposed and caught. Criminal defense lawyers charge a lot.

 

[futureapppsy2]

Mod note: please be respectful, everyone, and avoid personal insults

 

[Sanman]

It does until you get exposed and caught. Criminal defense lawyers charge a lot.

Seems to have worked out just fine for the former Argosy CEO. He is peddling the same stuff internationally now. Alliant seems to be doing fine.

Any diploma mill CEOs you know in prison? I'd be more worried about civil liability.

 

[psych.meout]

Seems to have worked out just fine for the former Argosy CEO. He is peddling the same stuff internationally now. Alliantxseems to be doing fine.

Any diploma mill CEOs you know in prison? I'd be more worried about civil liability.

Yeah, I'm very skeptical whenever someone says that the wealthy, powerful, and influential critical will face criminal charges and prosecution for their white collar crimes, especially when they aren't committed against other wealthy and powerful people.

I'm even more skeptical of that now when Trump has federal law enforcement agencies deprioritizing white collar crimes in favor of focusing on immigration and deportations.

 

[Sanman]

It will also pay them less and give them fewer opportunities over the long run. I love how people who couldn't make it into doctoral programs rationalize their second choices.

To try and get this thread back on track:

Medicare pays us exactly 25% more than a midlevel therapist. Cash pay folks can charge whatever they want based on their market and what folks will pay. I know midlevels charging $245/hr out of network that are full.

At VA, we are usually gs-13 at the full performance level and they are gs-11 to gs-12.

Insurance based assessment currently bills out less per hour than psychotherapy.

I actually see more institutional level opportunities for midlevels than I do psychologists.

Curious as to what you are seeing since you are so positive.

 

[WisNeuro]

To try and get this thread back on track:

Medicare pays us exactly 25% more than a midlevel therapist. Cash pay folks can charge whatever they want based on their market and what folks will pay. I know midlevels charging $245/hr out of network that are full.

At VA, we are usually gs-13 at the full performance level and they are gs-11 to gs-12.

Insurance based assessment currently bills out less per hour than psychotherapy.

I actually see more institutional level opportunities for midlevels than I do psychologists.

Curious as to what you are seeing since you are so positive.

Also my experience locally for hospital based jobs. By and large, I rarely see any therapy jobs in hospital settings for doctoral level psychologists these days here. They will still hire for the occasional assessment person, but therapy jobs are overwhelmingly hired at the midlevel licenses.

 

[psych.meout]

Also my experience locally for hospital based jobs. By and large, I rarely see any therapy jobs in hospital settings for doctoral level psychologists these days here. They will still hire for the occasional assessment person, but therapy jobs are overwhelmingly hired at the midlevel licenses.

At my institution, it's still pretty common to hire psychologists for therapy jobs, though it depends on what dept. Psychiatry definitely hires psychologists almost exclusively, though there are a handful of midlevels.

Otherwise, in my area, midlevels are predominant, partially because so many trainees here don't stick around. E.g., PCMHI programs are transitioning to mostly midlevels because they're much cheaper and the admin in these places don't see the incremental value (if there is any, though that's a debate for another time) on staffing them with more expensive psychologists..

 

[chicandtoughness]

I’ve worked all levels of care from inpatient down to community outpatient at primarily privately owned institutions, and midlevels are by and large the preference for psychotherapy hires. (I suspect academic medical centers may be different but not my area of experience). It makes sense especially for programs that bill inclusively. They get paid the same for a H0035 regardless if it’s an LCSW or a PsyD providing the service so why not hire the cheaper one?

Specific/specialty institutions (mainly the neuropsych ones tbh) may prefer the doctoral hires, but your run of the mill private inpatient freestanding hospital or mental health IOP will hire the midlevels.

I left a job in March and within a week I had 6 offers at comparatively competitive rates in my geography. The churn is so bad institutionally that there will always be spots for people who want to work.

Private practice I’ve seen midlevels charge anything from $100 to $400 per 90837 (Texas metro area). I charge $150 + $20 additional for each person in the room (couples, family, etc), and that was because I purposefully undercut myself. Obviously my pp is tiny since I’m in school now, but before that I had no problem filling spots. Insurance reimburses me $100-120 (BCBS highest, UHC lowest), but I also haven’t renegotiated rates for almost 5 years 🤪

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Specific/specialty institutions (mainly the neuropsych ones tbh) may prefer the doctoral hires, but your run of the mill private inpatient freestanding hospital or mental health IOP will hire the midlevels.

An added issue is one of billing correctly. For hospitals that offer in-pt rehab services, many will "bundle" the charges, so they get paid the same whether the patient is seen by an LCSW/LPC/Mid-level or PhD/PsyD. What they *should* do is bill separately, which I know doctoral level clinicians can do, not sure about mid-levels in that scenario. You'd think hospitals would want to squeeze every last drop of blood from the stone, but many miss out on A LOT of in-pt billing because they bundle and don't split out the neuro/rehab psych person. Again, I'm not sure how it works for mid-levels, but I saw this happen a lot when I was still working at large hospital systems. Most that had SW'ers would use them for case coordination AND therapy, but they'd never actually bill either because it fell under the bundled services.

 

[PsyDr]

Obviously my pp is tiny

I am not mature enough to ignore this opportunity.