Caribbean Match... am I missing something?

[jellybean13]

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So I was just browsing the internet today, looking into some Caribbean medical schools, and I came across the match list for St George's (2010)

https://baysgu35.sgu.edu/ERD/2010/ResidPost.nsf/BYPGY?OpenView&RestrictToCategory=PGY1&Count=-1

And after everything I have heard about Caribbean schools, it looks pretty decent to me. Am I missing something?

I think I am just stuck on the thought of spending 2 years in such a beautiful place, living on the beach...

(I am pretty confident that a US medical school is fully within my reach... cGPA ~3.5 sGPA ~3.5, MCAT practice scores all 32+)

What are everyones thoughts on this?

{I am NOT looking to get flamed for this or for a DO vs. Caribbean vs. MD debate, just everyones thoughts on their match list}

 

[dissidence]

From what I've heard, the problem with a school like St. George's (ie not in the US) is that you aren't guaranteed a spot in a residency. IIRC something like only half of the graduating class match.

 

[gatorfann14]

From what I've heard, the problem with a school like St. George's (ie not in the US) is that you aren't guaranteed a spot in a residency. IIRC something like only half of the graduating class match.

You aren't guaranteed a match if you attend any school as far as I know. People most likely scramble at every school.

 

[StayOnTop]

You aren't guaranteed a match if you attend any school as far as I know. People most likely scramble at every school.

Yeah, but don't most Carib schools pre-test to make sure only their best students take the USMLE exam? Scramble is one thing (you'll most likely still end up somewhere), but a pre-test sounds tough.

 

[p30doc]

You are missing all the people who never made it to match day and are left with massive loans for their partial schooling. Also, the people who didn't match.

 

[Desperate]

If you go to a Caribbean medical school, beware of the risks. There are only 4 schools that are eligible to practice in all 50 states, American University of the Caribbean, Ross University, St. Georges, and Saba. If you do well there and score high on the usmle, you'll will almost definitely get into a residency. These schools also have very high attrition rates way as well. Be cautious and do some research before attending, and always apply to US schools first. Just my two cents.

 

[tndoc12]

US > Carib

 

[235750]

A lot drop out, or are forced out. You may look at the carb forum for a lot of frustrated people, or look at the number who matriculate vs. graduate.

I don't like these conversations. Often fellow DOs students will act superior to our IMG comrades. The fact is, many offshore grads don't match or graduate not because they are poorer students, but rather because they are taken advantage of by an unfair system that aims to swindle students. The for-profit model is a bad one, and I feel real sympathy for any IMG.

 

[tndoc12]

A lot drop out, or are forced out. You may look at the carb forum for a lot of frustrated people, or look at the number who matriculate vs. graduate.

I don't like these conversations. Often fellow DOs students will act superior to our IMG comrades. The fact is, many offshore grads don't match or graduate not because they are poorer students, but rather because they are taken advantage of by an unfair system that aims to swindle students. The for-profit model is a bad one, and I feel real sympathy for any IMG.

Well put!

 

[JaggerPlate]

Didn't only 48% of FMGs match last year or something??? There are big risks to going to the Caribbean. Don't buy into the match lists for a second. First, you don't know the whole story - you see one g-surg or gas match out of 500 people and assume they matched at 25, straight out of med school like everyone else. Come to find out, this person did tons of research, had to apply several times, had a PhD before going to med school, etc.

Just use a bit of common sense when thinking about attending non-US schools. There are people that go and probably end up okay, but they shouldn't be utilized by anybody who has other options.

 

[ShyRem]

I'm a current resident. We are looking at applications now. There are programs with preliminary interns rather than categorical... and the problem some of these folks are facing trying to get a categorical spot is, and I quote, "they're Caribbean. If they were DO they would stand a much better chance of a spot." I know one Caribbean grad who applied for THREE YEARS before they could get a residency spot. And then they had to scramble for a prelim year. Caribbean grads have a harder time matching. A much lower percentage of them match than DO grads.

Go where you think you'll be happy. But beware. If you choose to go off-shore it has consequences. Is it possible to get a good match as a Caribbean grad? sure. But it's more likely to NOT match as a Caribbean grad than as a DO grad.

 

[Srin123]

Another reason, why the match rate is so good for SGU, is because SGU is considered the best med school in the Caribbean.

It is the only school where is grads can enter Texas Residency programs without having to go through extra steps.

 

[schroon]

I won't offer an opinion regarding whether D.O. is better or worse than St. George's University but I assure you that St. George's is better that each of the other 30+/- other Carrib medical schools.

I also know that St. George's, Ross, American University of the Carribean, and Saba University are better than the other 26+/- Carrib medical schools and that St. Georges is the best of these 4.

The bottom line is that in my opinion if anyone considers a non US Allopathic medical school they should restrict their inquiry to D.O. schools or St. Georges.

Good luck to all. Don't give up the dream.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I won't offer an opinion regarding whether D.O. is better or worse than St. George's University but I assure you that St. George's is better that each of the other 30+/- other Carrib medical schools.

Isn't this like being the skinniest kid at fat camp?

 

[GraceEuphoria]

Surely there's a med school somewhere on a beach if that's really your concern 😉 If you're competitive here, why risk it?

 

[jellybean13]

Thanks for the input everyone! I think I am a fairly competitive applicant for DO schools and possibly for MD (depending on whether I can hit my average of my last three MCAT practice tests 36,39,38), so I may just apply to St. George's for the heck of it. 🙂

 

[travoltage]

Thanks for the input everyone! I think I am a fairly competitive applicant for DO schools and possibly for MD (depending on whether I can hit my average of my last three MCAT practice tests 36,39,38), so I may just apply to St. George's for the heck of it. 🙂

i would go MD/DO >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> carib. in fact, i wont stop trying to get int a MD/DO than ever consider going carib. the fact of the matter is that residency spots are hard to get. if you carib, not only are you competing with other FMG, but your competing with DOs and MD for allopathic spots. my experiences at Rush/UIC med centers, they frown upon carib just because they get so many MD/DO applicants, that they dont waste their time. not saying that you cant get into their programs, but they already have so many qualified med students trying to match that they dont need FMG. i would assume the same applies for most other medical centers. again, my 2cents

 

[schroon]

Isn't this like being the skinniest kid at fat camp?

JaggerPlate --

Don't flatter yourself; most Allopathic med students would say that the DO and Carib students are the fat kids at the fat camp.

 

[Skippygonenuts]

JaggerPlate --

Don't flatter yourself; most Allopathic med students would say that the DO and Carib students are the fat kids at the fat camp.

Maybe 10 years ago buddy. Back when people genuinely believed DOs were not docs and it was either US md or Carib md.

Times have changed. DOs are growing quick, portrayed on tv, and matching over many md students at their own residencies.

And in 4 years when Carib students can't match because of the huge increase in class size, there probably won't be many more of these DO vs carib threads..

 

[JaggerPlate]

JaggerPlate --

Don't flatter yourself; most Allopathic med students would say that the DO and Carib students are the fat kids at the fat camp.

So ... what you're saying is that the Allopathic kids are still at fat camp??? That sucks.




fail.

 

[IvyHopeful20]

I think it's probably safe to say that if you have a choice between US MD schools and US DO schools, it's safer to go the former.

Both are immensely better than the Caribbean though.

 

[VA1986]

.

 

[skatertudoroga]

I think it's probably safe to say that if you have a choice between US MD schools and US DO schools, it's safer to go the former.

Both are immensely better than the Caribbean though.

To somewhat corroborate your statement ,a SGU grad on anesthesiology forum discussed this and said when he was on his residency interview trail, he competed mostly against DO's who had lower step1 scores than he did and at the same time had more interviews or interviews at better allopathic residencies than he did. But in the end, whether you get 1 interview or 10interviews at top programs you can still fail. Even if you get a MD. So strive for the best but it's always possible to fail at life, like I did.

 

[StayOnTop]

JaggerPlate --

Don't flatter yourself; most Allopathic med students would say that the DO and Carib students are the fat kids at the fat camp.

You know, if you look at the numbers, then you'll see that there is a world of difference between DO's and Carib match numbers. Most importantly, the trends are in opposite directions. DOs are doing better and better in ACGME matches, while foreign grads are doing worse.

 

[DrFraud]

So I was just browsing the internet today, looking into some Caribbean medical schools, and I came across the match list for St George's (2010)

https://baysgu35.sgu.edu/ERD/2010/ResidPost.nsf/BYPGY?OpenView&RestrictToCategory=PGY1&Count=-1

And after everything I have heard about Caribbean schools, it looks pretty decent to me. Am I missing something?

I think I am just stuck on the thought of spending 2 years in such a beautiful place, living on the beach...

(I am pretty confident that a US medical school is fully within my reach... cGPA ~3.5 sGPA ~3.5, MCAT practice scores all 32+)

What are everyones thoughts on this?

{I am NOT looking to get flamed for this or for a DO vs. Caribbean vs. MD debate, just everyones thoughts on their match list}

I'm a current resident. We are looking at applications now. There are programs with preliminary interns rather than categorical... and the problem some of these folks are facing trying to get a categorical spot is, and I quote, "they're Caribbean. If they were DO they would stand a much better chance of a spot." I know one Caribbean grad who applied for THREE YEARS before they could get a residency spot. And then they had to scramble for a prelim year. Caribbean grads have a harder time matching. A much lower percentage of them match than DO grads.

Go where you think you'll be happy. But beware. If you choose to go off-shore it has consequences. Is it possible to get a good match as a Caribbean grad? sure. But it's more likely to NOT match as a Caribbean grad than as a DO grad.

Just to clarify, there is a lot of misleading information in this thread that is anactodel at best. There are lots of disgruntled medical students in this world, including DO students, and students who attend US MD programs as well. While this may be astonishing to some, there were actually grads from Columbia University who had to scramble last year. There are also students at US allopathic programs who did not complete their training and who end up with lots of debt and no career.

Asking a DO about Carib. programs is about as useful as asking a Neurologists about Vet school.


Here are some points to consider
1) There is no particular advantage to going to a DO program vs. an IMG MD program that is accredited in all 50 states.

2) While there are some program that give preference to DO students over IMG MD there are also programs that would prefer IMG MD over DO. Many program that consider DO also consider IMG MD. For a vast majority of programs that consider candidates from both, a strong candidate from either is much more advantagous than a mediocre candidate from a DO or an IMG MD program.

3) Much of the info in this thread lumps together data from all IMG MD programs instead of looking at data from IMG MD programs that are accredited in all 50 states. This is deceptive but those who are doing it are doing it for a reason - to mislead.

4) The only real advantage to going DO over IMG MD is because you subscribe to the Osteopath philosophy or because you want to go to do an Osteopathic residency, or you would prefer to not leave the States for 20 months.

5) A preliminary spot can sometimes be harder to get than a categorical spot especially in Medicine, where many of the Prelim spots are filled with those going into Derm, Radiology, Anesthesiology, etc....The candidates are usually much stronger than those applying for the Categorical spots.

6) Those who use fear as a method of persuasion often lack a true basis for their opinion and are trying to 'persuade with fear'. I'm sure it wouldn't take too much research to uncover some DO horror stories as well. Why does someone feel a need to 'Persuade with Fear' may rest with how valid or invalid their arguments are.

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO BASIS FOR THE STATEMENTS MADE BY SHYREM COMPARING AN IMG MD PROGRAM ACCREDITED IN ALL 50 STATES VS. A DO PROGRAM FOR STUDENTS WISHING TO COMPLETE AN ALLOPATHIC RESIDENCY.

 

[ShyRem]

Nothing except the personal interactions with the PDs looking at applications, Fraud.

*sigh* Y'all think what you wish. Y'all will. And more than once I've been called an idiot, a *****, and someone who doesn't know what they're talking about. Sometimes I wonder why I try to answer questions. And I often wonder why people take one personal example/warning and turn it into a global statement. I also wonder why people take hard statistics and ignore them.

Regardless. The OP asked for information. Information is being provided. Don't call people liars because you don't like the information provided unless you can show why the information provided was false. You should notice I didn't call out any one particular school because the statement made to me was global. I related it as such. If you have personal (FIRST HAND) knowledge and PERSONAL interaction with PDs to the contrary, please provide the OP with information with what programs would rather have IMGs than DOs . Of course there are some. But I have no first-hand knowledge of what those would be.

*sigh* Do what you wish.

 

[DrFraud]

Nothing except the personal interactions with the PDs looking at applications, Fraud.

*sigh* Y'all think what you wish. Y'all will. And more than once I've been called an idiot, a *****, and someone who doesn't know what they're talking about. Sometimes I wonder why I try to answer questions. And I often wonder why people take one personal example/warning and turn it into a global statement. I also wonder why people take hard statistics and ignore them.

Regardless. The OP asked for information. Information is being provided. Don't call people liars because you don't like the information provided unless you can show why the information provided was false. You should notice I didn't call out any one particular school because the statement made to me was global. I related it as such. If you have personal (FIRST HAND) knowledge and PERSONAL interaction with PDs to the contrary, please provide the OP with information with what programs would rather have IMGs than DOs . Of course there are some. But I have no first-hand knowledge of what those would are.

*sigh* Do what you wish.

I am not calling you an idiot. In fact some of the more savy people out there are politicians and used-car salesman, but what separates a used-car salesman from a doctor is that when a particular path is recommended its for the benefit of the patient, not the practitioner. Is your advice for the benefit of the applicant, or for your own self-reinforcement.

Making sweeping statements to applicants that suggests that all Carib. programs are equivilant, that matching into an allopath residancy from a fully accredited 50 state Carib. program is equivalent to an osteopath residency, or that broadly speaking, PDs prefer Osteopaths to IMG MDs is very misleading.

Here is one statement you said: "But beware. If you choose to go off-shore it has consequences. Is it possible to get a good match as a Caribbean grad? sure. But it's more likely to NOT match as a Caribbean grad than as a DO grad. "

Please provide some evidence to back-up your claim that a Carib graduates over the past 3-5 years (from accredited 50 state programs) have had more difficulty getting Allopath residency spots than Osteopathic grads trying to get Allopath residencies......

Also, you might want to explain to some applicants the differences between completing Allopath and Osteopath residencies in terms of what impact it might have on future prospects as this distinction is often blurred by those advocating Osteopathic programs.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Just to clarify, there is a lot of misleading information in this thread that is anactodel at best. There are lots of disgruntled medical students in this world, including DO students, and students who attend US MD programs as well. While this may be astonishing to some, there were actually grads from Columbia University who had to scramble last year. There are also students at US allopathic programs who did not complete their training and who end up with lots of debt and no career.

Asking a DO about Carib. programs is about as useful as asking a Neurologists about Vet school.


Here are some points to consider
1) There is no particular advantage to going to a DO program vs. an IMG MD program that is accredited in all 50 states.

2) While there are some program that give preference to DO students over IMG MD there are also programs that would prefer IMG MD over DO. Many program that consider DO also consider IMG MD. For a vast majority of programs that consider candidates from both, a strong candidate from either is much more advantagous than a mediocre candidate from a DO or an IMG MD program.

3) Much of the info in this thread lumps together data from all IMG MD programs instead of looking at data from IMG MD programs that are accredited in all 50 states. This is deceptive but those who are doing it are doing it for a reason - to mislead.

4) The only real advantage to going DO over IMG MD is because you subscribe to the Osteopath philosophy or because you want to go to do an Osteopathic residency, or you would prefer to not leave the States for 20 months.

5) A preliminary spot can sometimes be harder to get than a categorical spot especially in Medicine, where many of the Prelim spots are filled with those going into Derm, Radiology, Anesthesiology, etc....The candidates are usually much stronger than those applying for the Categorical spots.

6) Those who use fear as a method of persuasion often lack a true basis for their opinion and are trying to 'persuade with fear'. I'm sure it wouldn't take too much research to uncover some DO horror stories as well. Why does someone feel a need to 'Persuade with Fear' may rest with how valid or invalid their arguments are.

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO BASIS FOR THE STATEMENTS MADE BY SHYREM COMPARING AN IMG MD PROGRAM ACCREDITED IN ALL 50 STATES VS. A DO PROGRAM FOR STUDENTS WISHING TO COMPLETE AN ALLOPATHIC RESIDENCY.

I really don't want to get into it, but I know (from previous interactions) that you're a Caribbean medical student and obviously want to paint the pathway in a positive light. Is this thread full of assumptions and some opinions that aren't based off of much besides SDN banter? Sure, but I think you're going to have a hard time convincing anyone that there is no advantage going DO over a foreign program that is accredited in all 50 states. The truth of the matter is that, match wise, it's a far, far safer bet and this issue is only going to get worse as US MD and US DO schools expand and increase class sizes. I respect the fact that you are defending the pathway you chose, but we should try to be honest and fair from both sides of this debate.

Additionally, I don't think many people would argue that, if not for the sake of matching alone, US MD/DO > Caribbean.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Please provide some evidence to back-up your claim that a Carib graduates over the past 3-5 years (from accredited 50 state programs) have had more difficulty getting Allopath residency spots than Osteopathic grads trying to get Allopath residencies......

Also, you might want to explain to some applicants the differences between completing Allopath and Osteopath residencies in terms of what impact it might have on future prospects as this distinction is often blurred by those advocating Osteopathic programs.

I really don't have time to dig through this, but I believe page 20 of this document (somewhere in that area) shows that around 71% of DOs matched ACGME and less than 50% (48% I think) of US born IMGs did. This doesn't take AOA residencies into account either.

http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2010.pdf

 

[Skippygonenuts]

Why don't u try to find how many students matriculate into any given Carib MD program and how many actually match 4 years later. Ull see that not only the match, but attrition rates are just scary.

Or better yet, if the information you find there is too shocking, just look up the class size of any 4th year class and see how many students actually matched from those MS4s.

Now go and compare that information with ANY DO school..then we'll continue this conversation

 

[JamesLMT]

Why don't u try to find how many students matriculate into any given Carib MD program and how many actually match 4 years later. Ull see that not only the match, but attrition rates are just scary.

Or better yet, if the information you find there is too shocking, just look up the class size of any 4th year class and see how many students actually matched from those MS4s.

Now go and compare that information with ANY DO school..then we'll continue this conversation

/thread

 

[DrFraud]

I really don't have time to dig through this, but I believe page 20 of this document (somewhere in that area) shows that around 71% of DOs matched ACGME and less than 50% (48% I think) of US born IMGs did. This doesn't take AOA residencies into account either.

http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2010.pdf

Again, you are lumping together all off-shore programs, and this is not a valid comparison for someone considering an off-shore 50 state accredited program in comparison to a DO.

 

[DrFraud]

Why don't u try to find how many students matriculate into any given Carib MD program and how many actually match 4 years later. Ull see that not only the match, but attrition rates are just scary.

Just out of curiosity, as I have no actual experience in this area, but is it generally considered easier for an Osteopathic applicant in a given field such as family practice to match into an Osteopathic AOA Residency vs. an ACGME Allopath residency.

 

[VA1986]

.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Again, you are lumping together all off-shore programs, and this is not a valid comparison for someone considering an off-shore 50 state accredited program in comparison to a DO.

Hmm, well all US MD schools are lumped into one category even though I'm sure Harvard and small state schools don't match the same. Additionally, all DO schools are lumped into the same category even though I'm sure they don't match ACGME the same. Until data is broken down into levels this specific, it seems like the only things we can go on our these 'lumped' categories:

US MD: 95 + % match

US DO: 71% match (into ACGME programs without taking DO only/AOA residencies into consideration)

US born students attending all off-shore programs: 48%

 

[DrFraud]

Hmm, well all US MD schools are lumped into one category even though I'm sure Harvard and small state schools don't match the same. Additionally, all DO schools are lumped into the same category even though I'm sure they don't match ACGME the same. Until data is broken down into levels this specific, it seems like the only things we can go on our these 'lumped' categories:

US MD: 95 + % match

US DO: 71% match (into ACGME programs without taking DO only/AOA residencies into consideration)

US born students attending all off-shore programs: 48%

LOL if someone plans on attending Harvard and wants to know about their furture prospects than yes it would be better to use data about Harvard instead of lumped LCME data. The data specific to Harvard would provide a more accurate picture of the prospects for a student who is going to Harvard.

A good example to use from a patient care perspective is if a patient is looking to get a type of hip replacement surgery from the Hospital of Special Surgery in NY that specializes in that particular surgery, using the M and M data from that center would likely provide a better picture of what the prospects are for a positive outcome vs. using data from all of the surgical centers including those in more rural areas that perform the procedure less often and that have less expertise and higher rates of complications.

And if you compare students who attend off-shore programs that are fully accredited in all 50 states, there are much better numbers from the accredited off-shore programs which is something I hope you know and if you do this is something you should acknowledge when you are explaining to an applicant what their prospects would be if they went to an accredited off-shore program (provided of course you were actually trying to inform vs. persuade)

FYI the OP was comparing going to SGU vs. a DO program, and not an unaccredited off-shore program. So using the lumped data is very misleading, and does not paint an accurate picture, but it does serve your interests if you are trying to persuade an applicant with FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt) rather than informing an applicant.

 

[skatertudoroga]

So you are saying that the match rate at your school, I presume St George, is much better than the 48% average. Let's also forget about attrition rates because some people like you are confident that they can pass all the class and do well on step1,etc. So anyway, I want to be an anesthesiologist. St George students rotate at some nyc hospitals including Maimonides. I believe in nyc some of the least selective anesthesiology residencies are Maimonides, NYM, and Downstate. Have any of them matched St George students in 2010? How about DO students such as NYCOM? I believe NYCOM students matched at Montefiore and Roosevelt in 2010 and 2009. I really dont care about match rates if it does not involve a specialty like anesthesiology and a city like NY or Madison,Wi or Minnesota or Beverly Hills. So tell me about your wonderful matches from 2010?

p.s. when 1 person from a class of 300 matches somewhere prestigious it means nothing. He might've had connections or incredible charisma,etc. It's when you have a pattern and statistically significant advantage that I take notice. I would not count on matching into derm just because 1 person did. 50% of ugrads got into allopathic med schools and i did not even though i had certain credentials that were very desirable.

p.p.s. some people are totally clueless. like they tell me "just go anywhere, caribbean or europe, it doesnt matter. we got connections to get you into residency when u come back. i know this guy who works in such and such specialty". these people do not have connections to get me into med school and dont even know that vip person enough to get him to hang out with me or otherwise let him know when i was visiting a certain town for an interview. theyve never helped me. yet they make with full authority claims about resident matching, something they could not further away from. most people are full of ****.

 

[JaggerPlate]

LOL if someone plans on attending Harvard and wants to know about their furture prospects than yes it would be better to use data about Harvard instead of lumped LCME data. The data specific to Harvard would provide a more accurate picture of the prospects for a student who is going to Harvard.

A good example to use from a patient care perspective is if a patient is looking to get a type of hip replacement surgery from the Hospital of Special Surgery in NY that specializes in that particular surgery, using the M and M data from that center would likely provide a better picture of what the prospects are for a positive outcome vs. using data from all of the surgical centers including those in more rural areas that perform the procedure less often and that have less expertise and higher rates of complications.

And if you compare students who attend off-shore programs that are fully accredited in all 50 states, there are much better numbers from the accredited off-shore programs which is something I hope you know and if you do this is something you should acknowledge when you are explaining to an applicant what their prospects would be if they went to an accredited off-shore program (provided of course you were actually trying to inform vs. persuade)

FYI the OP was comparing going to SGU vs. a DO program, and not an unaccredited off-shore program. So using the lumped data is very misleading, and does not paint an accurate picture, but it does serve your interests if you are trying to persuade an applicant with FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt) rather than informing an applicant.

I think you've made my point:

All US MD schools are not equal, but they are lumped together at one match statistic at 95% matching. All US DO schools are not equal, but they are lumped together at one match statistic at 71% (not taking AOA residencies into account). All US attended foreign medical schools are equal, but they are lumped together as one match statistic at 48%.

I'm sure Harvard would like to be separated and shown how they matched differently than a small state school, just as I'm sure SGU would like to be separated and represented differently from other foreign schools. However, we don't have this luxury. So it's unfair to remove SGU from this undesired category and place it somewhere else (where we can't quantify the numbers), simply because you say so. Painting SGU differently compared to other US citizen attended foreign schools (with regard to the NRMP data) is giving it some sort of advantage that is not applied to other NRMP statistics (namely US DO and US MD). Since we can't do this, it's, as I said before, only fair/logical to look at the raw match numbers where US -IMG schools (SGU included ) come in at 48% matching ACGME residencies.

Frankly, not sharing this information with applicants is far more dangerous than any sort of non-existent 'fear mongering' on my part.

 

[DrFraud]

I think you've made my point:

All US MD schools are not equal, but they are lumped together at one match statistic at 95% matching. All US DO schools are not equal, but they are lumped together at one match statistic at 71% (not taking AOA residencies into account). All US attended foreign medical schools are equal, but they are lumped together as one match statistic at 48%.

I'm sure Harvard would like to be separated and shown how they matched differently than a small state school, just as I'm sure SGU would like to be separated and represented differently from other foreign schools. However, we don't have this luxury. So it's unfair to remove SGU from this undesired category and place it somewhere else (where we can't quantify the numbers), simply because you say so. Painting SGU differently compared to other US citizen attended foreign schools (with regard to the NRMP data) is giving it some sort of advantage that is not applied to other NRMP statistics (namely US DO and US MD). Since we can't do this, it's, as I said before, only fair/logical to look at the raw match numbers where US -IMG schools (SGU included ) come in at 48% matching ACGME residencies.

Frankly, not sharing this information with applicants is far more dangerous than any sort of non-existent 'fear mongering' on my part.

No, I did not make your point, I refuted your point. Please reread my post if this is not clear.

Students from SGU who go through the match (not including pre-match data which acutally makes the numbers better) have much better than a 1:2 chance. Your insistence that telling students who are looking at SGU that they will have such a poor outlook, when "we" both know this paints an inaccurate picture only further strengthens my point that you and many other members here are more interested in promoting your pathway and furthering your interests rather than informing applicants in an honest and sincere way. Please note I am not advocating one path over another, I am simply refuting your numbers and rhetoric.

I understand that in the eyes of many LCME students Ostepaths get kicked around alot and so you fell the need to find others to kick around and put down so you look towards off-shore programs and you do the same old song..... "Ra Ra l Fell good about myself now that I put others down, lets do this some more.....Ra Ra" type of rhetoric. It in the end just makes you look bad and lowers your credibility and that of your profession of Osteopathy because it makes you look like your not secure in your own skin.

 

[JaggerPlate]

No, I did not make your point, I refuted your point. Please reread my post if this is not clear.

Students from SGU who go through the match (not including pre-match data which acutally makes the numbers better) have much better than a 1:2 chance. Your insistence that telling students who are looking at SGU that they will have such a poor outlook, when "we" both know this paints an inaccurate picture only further strengthens my point that you and many other members here are more interested in promoting your pathway and furthering your interests rather than informing applicants in an honest and sincere way. Please note I am not advocating one path over another, I am simply refuting your numbers and rhetoric.

I understand that in the eyes of many LCME students Ostepaths get kicked around alot and so you fell the need to find others to kick around and put down so you look towards off-shore programs and you do the same old song..... "Ra Ra l Fell good about myself now that I put others down, lets do this some more.....Ra Ra" type of rhetoric. It in the end just makes you look bad and lowers your credibility and that of your profession of Osteopathy because it makes you look like your not secure in your own skin.

Hahahaha, you've lost it man ... "we" both know that SGU students have a far better chance of matching compared to the rest of US-IMGs?? I don't recall saying this ... quite the opposite actually. You've refuted my point despite the fact that I've shown data from the NRMP and you've relied on nothing besides your opinion and anecdotal impressions? I'm the one that is insecure despite the fact that YOU came into the pre-DO forums, repeated yourself several times (which I know you find very impressive), and offered no real conclusions whatsoever??? Hmm ... seems like you may need to do some self-reflection there Dr. Fraud.

Let's be realistic here for a moment ... I'm being extremely fair to Caribbean students and your activity in this thread. I even commended the fact that you're here to support your own personal decision. However, your attitude of 'refuting' claims by offering nothing but anecdotal 'I know this because' is getting old. Frankly, I could and should probably be much more realistic with students here and explain that due to increased enrollment at the US MD/DO level, the Caribbean is an enormous gamble that could leave people in a very poor situation. In fact, I recall an article from several years back where a non-trad went to Ross, racked up 300k in debt, couldn't obtain a residency, and was now working as a carpenter. I wonder if he wishes someone would have shared these concerns with him (I figured you'd like a bit of anecdotal evidence returned).

If you would like anyone to take your 'arguments' remotely seriously, please provide FACTS. I gave NRMP data that said 48% of US IMGs matched. You said 'lol, this isn't accurate ... you're spreading fear and DOs are insecure.' Other individuals have mentioned high attrition rates. Care you comment on this??? Any facts comparing the attrition rates at US IMG schools with US MD/DO? Or would you prefer to fall back on more logical fallacies and paint us as some type of fear mongering 'haters' when you can't refute something that disagrees with your life choice.

I think this thread is pretty sufficient, and if you really want it to turn around, please start providing data that supports your point of view. Until that point in time, you're simply a Caribbean medical student telling people it's awesome when the entirety of the medical community disagrees with you.

 

[DrFraud]

Hahahaha, you've lost it man ... "we" both know that SGU students have a far better chance of matching compared to the rest of US-IMGs?? I don't recall saying this ... quite the opposite actually. You've refuted my point despite the fact that I've shown data from the NRMP and you've relied on nothing besides your opinion and anecdotal impressions? I'm the one that is insecure despite the fact that YOU came into the pre-DO forums, repeated yourself several times (which I know you find very impressive), and offered no real conclusions whatsoever??? Hmm ... seems like you may need to do some self-reflection there Dr. Fraud.

Let's be realistic here for a moment ... I'm being extremely fair to Caribbean students and your activity in this thread. I even commended the fact that you're here to support your own personal decision. However, your attitude of 'refuting' claims by offering nothing but anecdotal 'I know this because' is getting old. Frankly, I could and should probably be much more realistic with students here and explain that due to increased enrollment at the US MD/DO level, the Caribbean is an enormous gamble that could leave people in a very poor situation. In fact, I recall an article from several years back where a non-trad went to Ross, racked up 300k in debt, couldn't obtain a residency, and was now working as a carpenter. I wonder if he wishes someone would have shared these concerns with him (I figured you'd like a bit of anecdotal evidence returned).

If you would like anyone to take your 'arguments' remotely seriously, please provide FACTS. I gave NRMP data that said 48% of US IMGs matched. You said 'lol, this isn't accurate ... you're spreading fear and DOs are insecure.' Other individuals have mentioned high attrition rates. Care you comment on this??? Any facts comparing the attrition rates at US IMG schools with US MD/DO? Or would you prefer to fall back on more logical fallacies and paint us as some type of fear mongering 'haters' when you can't refute something that disagrees with your life choice.

I think this thread is pretty sufficient, and if you really want it to turn around, please start providing data that supports your point of view. Until that point in time, you're simply a Caribbean medical student telling people it's awesome when the entirety of the medical community disagrees with you.

If you ever really want to know why so many people have such a negative opinion of osteopaths, a profession that advocates belly rubs for CHF or back rubs for emphysema at $100 bucks a pop, its because of claims like those you and many people on this thread continue to make that undermine your credibility.

Some might argue that your only a student and therefor such a transgression should be forgiven, and there are others who might suggest that such trangressions are deeply ingrained in Osteopathy which starts during training and continues throughout the profession.

Why do you think there are so many threads out there that challenges the creditbility of your profession and the credibility of people who are looking to consider joining your profession.....

Why, do you think that so many people out and many others reject the Osteopathic philosophy is because infused in the profession, and integreted within the eductional programs are therapies and claims that transcend the boundaries of reason.....

http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/QA/osteo.html

http://quackfiles.blogspot.com/2004/11/osteopathy-and-chiropractic-little.html

http://www.quackwatch.com/search/webglimpse.cgi?ID=1&query=osteopathy

Many in the general public have the perception that charging 100 bucks to rub the belly of someone with CHF to correct body energy or fix a bone aura problem is being a Shister. Whether you like it or not, this is often perception of Osteopathy, and you statements on this thread only reinforces the perception of Shister wearing a white coat.



With this being said, I have two final points to make.

1) I have met and I continue to meet many competent and caring DOs who I have the highest professinoal admiration for their professional work, and who make positive contrutions to the health and well being of their patients. Your statements here while misguided will not change my opinion of those who I have worked with.

2) I highly recommend anyone considering alternatives to LCME MD programs such as Offshore MD, DO, NP or PA to think very carefully about personal philosophy before selecting DO because despite the best evidence out there, as far as I know, giving belly rubs for CHF is still taught in Osteopathic school, its still tested, and Licenced Osteopaths still claim this is a legitimate therapy.....for 100 bucks a pop. Sounds ridiculous....almost as ridiculous as some of the statements in this thread....

 

[JaggerPlate]

If you ever really want to know why so many people have such a negative opinion of osteopaths, a profession that advocates belly rubs for CHF or back rubs for emphysema at $100 bucks a pop, its because of claims like those you and many people on this thread continue to make that undermine your credibility.

Some might argue that your only a student and therefor such a transgression should be forgiven, and there are others who might suggest that such trangressions are deeply ingrained in Osteopathy which starts during training and continues throughout the profession.

Why do you think there are so many threads out there that challenges the creditbility of your profession and the credibility of people who are looking to consider joining your profession.....

Why, do you think that so many people out and many others reject the Osteopathic philosophy is because infused in the profession, and integreted within the eductional programs are therapies and claims that transcend the boundaries of reason.....

http://quackfiles.blogspot.com/2004/11/osteopathy-and-chiropractic-little.html

http://www.quackwatch.com/search/webglimpse.cgi?ID=1&query=osteopathy

Many in the general public have the perception that charging 100 bucks to rub the belly of someone with CHF to correct body energy or fix a bone aura problem is being a Shister. Whether you like it or not, this is often perception of Osteopathy, and you statements on this thread only reinforces the perception of Shister wearing a white coat.



With this being said, I have two final points to make.

1) I have met and I continue to meet many competent and caring DOs who I have the highest professinoal admiration for their professional work, and who make positive contrutions to the health and well being of their patients. Your statements here while misguided will not change my opinion of those who I have worked with.

2) I highly recommend anyone considering alternatives to LCME MD programs such as Offshore MD, DO, NP or PA to think very carefully about personal philosophy before selecting DO because despite the best evidence out there, as far as I know, giving belly rubs for CHF is still taught in Osteopathic school, its still tested, and Licenced Osteopaths still claim this is a legitimate therapy.....for 100 bucks a pop. Sounds ridiculous....almost as ridiculous as some of the statements in this thread....

Ahhh, dude ... you could have just surrendered or apologized. You didn't need to get all huffy.

I wanted to share something with you though:

Ad hominem: attacking an opponent's character rather than answering his argument (a logical fallacy)

example:

Me/the medical community/common sense: There are various issues surrounding Caribbean medical education - namely attrition rates and the daunting numbers of US - IMGs that are able to obtain a residency in the US (48%)

Dr Fraud:

Osteopaths give belly rubs for 100 bucks. They teach this in Osteopath school. This is silly. Therefore, the claims made in this thread by Osteopathic students must be false.

Rolling On The Floor Laughing My Ass Off

Dude, no joke ... I have never seen someone fall apart this bad in a SDN argument. Wow, you take the cake. It's funny because you sounded remotely informed or well versed before, but now you come off as a complete imbecile and your little breakdown here just made any points you were trying to refute in this thread seem 100x more legitimate. So ... nicely done?

Before this thread is locked ... I just wanted to remind all candidates to thoroughly research before applying to foreign medical schools. Not only are costs and attrition rates high, but the graduates are often treated differently (as explained by a current resident involved with program selection - ShyRem) and the 2010 NRMP data demonstrated that only 48% were able to obtain a residency. This has no influence on when/how they pay back the hundreds of thousands of dollars in loan money.

See you around Fraud ... good luck with the match and thank you for possibly the funniest fail breakdown I've ever seen on SDN.

 

[DrFraud]

edit...duplicate post.

 

[Asianboy]

I agree with you JaggerPlate. I have read many posts from you. I think if you were not a medical student, you would be a good lawyer 🙂. Good arguments 👍

Ahhh, dude ... you could have just surrendered or apologized. You didn't need to get all huffy.

I wanted to share something with you though:

Ad hominem: attacking an opponent's character rather than answering his argument (a logical fallacy)

example:

Me/the medical community/common sense: There are various issues surrounding Caribbean medical education - namely attrition rates and the daunting numbers of US - IMGs that are able to obtain a residency in the US (48%)

Dr Fraud:

Osteopaths give belly rubs for 100 bucks. They teach this in Osteopath school. This is silly. Therefore, the claims made in this thread by Osteopathic students must be false.

Rolling On The Floor Laughing My Ass Off

Dude, no joke ... I have never seen someone fall apart this bad in a SDN argument. Wow, you take the cake. It's funny because you sounded remotely informed or well versed before, but now you come off as a complete imbecile and your little breakdown here just made any points you were trying to refute in this thread seem 100x more legitimate. So ... nicely done?

Before this thread is locked ... I just wanted to remind all candidates to thoroughly research before applying to foreign medical schools. Not only are costs and attrition rates high, but the graduates are often treated differently (as explained by a current resident involved with program selection - ShyRem) and the 2010 NRMP data demonstrated that only 48% were able to obtain a residency. This has no influence on when/how they pay back the hundreds of thousands of dollars in loan money.

See you around Fraud ... good luck with the match and thank you for possibly the funniest fail breakdown I've ever seen on SDN.

 

[VA1986]

.

 

[hisean17]

DrFraud is right in some aspects. There is a rather large disparity between Caribbean schools such as SGU and other schools not accredited throughout the US. It is a certainty that match rates at the better schools are far higher than the 48% you get from taking all of these schools as a whole.

That being said going to a DO school offers more security and better residency prospects than even the best Caribbean school, so if one has the choice DO is probably the better option.

 

[Skippygonenuts]

edit...duplicate post.

I don't see the other copy of this duplicate post...hmm

Glad all the points have been made. I can sleep a happy man now.

/thread

 

[IvyHopeful20]

When looking at residents, if two candidates were similar in scores and other areas, it makes sense that most PIs in allopathic would pick US MD > US DO > IMG. Of course, if you're a US DO it might be harder to get the same score in a USMLE exam as a US MD student as the DO cirriculum and their students would be more oriented towards the COMLEX (even though the two exams tests the same subjects, with the exception of OMM, the often-tested subjects, the test style, etc would be different). That need to study for two exams can be seen in the lower pass rate of DO students. But that might also be explained by the fact that there is a correlation between MCAT score and USMLE pass rates, and on average the DO schools have a lower MCAT score. I haven't seen any studies on a DO student with a 30 MCAT vs. MD student with a 30 MCAT - maybe that difference in pass rates might disappear.

Even so, the vasy majority of DO students I have spoken to want to do an allopathic residency (I live in the city, so that might have an effect) for various reasons: location (a big one), training (prefer academic centers to community centers), etc.

So many students change their minds during medical schools that it makes sense to keep the maximum number of options open to you. And I think that's why most people would pick US MD then US DO and then IMG. I would have no problems doing a US DO. I'd have some serious reservations about going overseas.

 

[DrFraud]

DrFraud is right in some aspects. There is a rather large disparity between Caribbean schools such as SGU and other schools not accredited throughout the US. It is a certainty that match rates at the better schools are far higher than the 48% you get from taking all of these schools as a whole.

This was my point as well. Its good to know there is some reason out there.

That being said going to a DO school offers more security and better residency prospects than even the best Caribbean school, so if one has the choice DO is probably the better option.

What will determine your residency much much more than your choice of Erie or Saba or NYCOM or Ross is how well you do individually and how intelligently you pick a specialty that is within the boundaries of your performance in Medical School. At this point and time there lacks any clear evidence to show that an outstanding candidate from one program has any clear advantage over the other broadly across a group of programs.

There might be some differences in fellowship opportunities and career prospects but this depends....

 

[DrFraud]

When looking at residents, if two candidates were similar in scores and other areas, it makes sense that most PIs in allopathic would pick US MD > US DO > IMG.

Of course, if you're a US DO it might be harder to get the same score in a USMLE exam as a US MD student as the DO cirriculum and their students would be more oriented towards the COMLEX (even though the two exams tests the same subjects, with the exception of OMM, the often-tested subjects, the test style, etc would be different). That need to study for two exams can be seen in the lower pass rate of DO students. But that might also be explained by the fact that there is a correlation between MCAT score and USMLE pass rates, and on average the DO schools have a lower MCAT score. I haven't seen any studies on a DO student with a 30 MCAT vs. MD student with a 30 MCAT - maybe that difference in pass rates might disappear.

Even so, the vasy majority of DO students I have spoken to want to do an allopathic residency (I live in the city, so that might have an effect) for various reasons: location (a big one), training (prefer academic centers to community centers), etc.

So many students change their minds during medical schools that it makes sense to keep the maximum number of options open to you. And I think that's why most people would pick US MD then US DO and then IMG. I would have no problems doing a US DO. I'd have some serious reservations about going overseas.

Well you are doing a lot of thinking, but what you think....and what you know are two very different things. There is no evidence, nada, none, that DOs on par with US IMGs MDs have any clear advantage in the MATCH.

This is a fantasy that is often proported as being some type of golden truth on this Message board supported by a handful of anecdotal stores by heavily biased individuals. Being a U.S. citizen might help you a bit against a non-U.S. citizen all else being equal, but being a DO over a U.S IMG MD does not offer any type of advantage at a majority of the programs that look at both types of candidates. (if you dont believe me than ask a few of the program directors who give advice in the ERAS forum) There are a few programs that will look at DOs first, and likewise, there will be a few that would never consider DOs and would only take MDs. Fellowships are a completely different ballgame and this is something you should always inquire about if you decide on DO as it would be unfortunate to go to program that accepts DOs but that is heavilty biased in looking at MDs first for Fellowships.