Caribbean Match... am I missing something?

[DocEspana]

Also someone else already said this, but my comments are for USIMGs and Non-USIMGS (which in the lingo of SDN are people from the carribbean). I am *NOT* in any way referring to foreign born foreign trained doctors from Europe, Africa, the Indian subcontinent, or Asia. Studies will show that the latter group outperforms american-trained doctors every time. The NRMP considers IMGs to include everyone not trained in the USA, and occasionally gives states that specify out USIMGs. Yea, I know, my request to count "just caribbeans" is not something that can be easily looked up.

But you can get these stats for the USIMGs and that nearly the same thing since they came from the same caribbean schools in, likely, 90+% of the USIMG cases.

---

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[patel2]

just curious...Dr. Fraud what evidence do you have of any programs and PDs prefer FMG MDs over DOs? Can you list any?

 

[patel2]

There is a massive flaw in your logic. There is no such thing as a field that is MD-preferential (one glaring and random exception is general surgery. Not even specialty surgery. just general surgery. But DOs don't even fill up their own gen surg spots in the AOA. So not overly concerned). Every last field from top to bottom (including derm. check the stats) will show you that DOs are represented in ACGME fields at approximately the amount they make up of applicants (10%) and more in certain fields. Without any sign of any ACGME residency that is DO discriminatory, outside of a batty director here or there who makes up less than 1% of the total spots, your argument falls apart.

Add in that no one will argue the same is true for IMGs, that they dont face a bias in many residency fields and even more specific locations, and you get the entire idea of my response here. 15 years ago the opposite was true, where IMGs were often viewed as better than DOs everywhere except middle america. Now the paradigm has shifted. But its not something that prone to switching back as we haven't replaced IMGs. IMGs were always the "next best thing to an american-trained doc and good at what they do get into" . Their situation, including rates of entering residencies, has not changed all that much.

Which is a little surprising to me, but the stats do back it up. IMGs are exactly where they've always been. But now DO has proven itself to be a legitimate alternative to MD for those who have some flaw in their record. But its not viewed the way IMGs are where they are "a alternative" we are just plain viewed as american trained doctors. period. The only reason why a DO might have trouble getting into derm at "hard as hell university hospital" is the same reason why he went to NYCOM instead of NYU (sorry NYCOM, but its true). Same school, nearly the same rate of primary care residencies (59.9% vs 62.7%), but the fact of the matter is that the NYU kid has a more perfect academic record and likely could reach for the random crazy competitive one if they wanted to.

So can the DO. There isn't a bias. There is simply the fact that if they were that academically flawless they'd (probably) be in NYU. The offshore schools are actually looked at with a bias. It's not anecdote when the residency directors tell you "they are mostly for primary care and anesthesia".

And plus... the future (ideally) fracturing of the offshore control of prime NYC/NJ training sites will be a big issue for the offshore students. I don't ever doubt the qualifications of the offshore students, but they are in a system that is predatory to the weak and biased back on US soil against the otherwise well qualified.

This is off-topic, but I'm really surprised by the bolded. You are saying that a carib grad was considered as more preferable to a DO student 15 years ago? Did DOs have much poor match rates in ACGME back then? And what are you basing the statement that only in the last 15 years DOs have achieved the parity (in terms of residency admissions) that they did not previously have.

 

[HockeyDr09]

So let's actually look at the data, shall we?
http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2010.pdf

There were just over 2000 DO applicants and just under 10,000 IMGs. So, you should expect roughly 5x as many IMGs

Derm- there are a total of 360 PGY 1 and PGY 2 positions
DOs took 1, IMGs took 9. So DOs make up 0.2%, IMGs make up 9 times that (2.25%).

Therefore, neither are even close to appropriately represented but IMGs are closer

Ortho- 653 filled. 3 by osteo (0.4%), 15 by IMG (2.2%)

ENT- 279 spots- 1 DO (0.35%), 5 IMG (1.8%)

Neurosurg- 188 spots 1 DO 7 IMG

Plastics -69 spots, 0 DOs, 3 IMG

If you REALLY want to look at all of the data. Let's look at all of the data. I decided it was time to have some concrete data on the AOA match that was well organized. I copied the horrendously formatted 2011 AOA match results from here and edited into a speadsheet which I have attached.

To further illustrate my point i'll clump all of the IMG's together (even though this was really only about the Caribbean. I'll use your hand picked specialties as examples. My data now includes PGY - 1 matches for MD + DO matches

Ortho- 87 DO , 15 by IMG (3 Caribbean)

ENT- 22 DO , 5 IMG (1 Caribbean) (AOA has ENT as Oto + Plastics so not sure about this)

Neurosurg- 13 DO, 7 IMG (3 Caribbean)

Plastics 22 DO, 3 IMG (0 Caribbean) (AOA has ENT as Oto + Plastics so not sure about this)

How about we add some more.

Anesthesiology- 103 DO, 23 Caribbean
Derm - 26 DO, 0 Caribbean
Emergency Medicine- 375 DO, 22 Caribbean




Why even argue?

 

[munchymanRX]

TL;DR: If you want to practice something other than Family Medicine or Pediatrics in the United States, your chances are best if you don't go out out the United States for School.

want to do a ROADS specialty? Best of luck, but unless you're equal parts doogie howser and greg house, you're probably not going to get a piece of that enchilada.

 

[kcin]

This guy is why they're changing the MCAT.

non-sense

 

[kcin]

/thread

If you REALLY want to look at all of the data. Let's look at all of the data. I decided it was time to have some concrete data on the AOA match that was well organized. I copied the horrendously formatted 2011 AOA match results from here and edited into a speadsheet which I have attached.

To further illustrate my point i'll clump all of the IMG's together (even though this was really only about the Caribbean. I'll use your hand picked specialties as examples. My data now includes PGY - 1 matches for MD + DO matches

Ortho- 87 DO , 15 by IMG (3 Caribbean)

ENT- 22 DO , 5 IMG (1 Caribbean) (AOA has ENT as Oto + Plastics so not sure about this)

Neurosurg- 13 DO, 7 IMG (3 Caribbean)

Plastics 22 DO, 3 IMG (0 Caribbean) (AOA has ENT as Oto + Plastics so not sure about this)

How about we add some more.

Anesthesiology- 103 DO, 23 Caribbean
Derm - 26 DO, 0 Caribbean
Emergency Medicine- 375 DO, 22 Caribbean




Why even argue?

 

[DrFraud]

So this is fresh off the floor of delegation and debate. The new New York state position on offshore schools is as follow (I admit the wording may be slightly different, i dont have a copy of the final wording, so I'm using my original submitted wording):

"...medical students from LCME/COCA accredited medical schools should be provided preference in allocation of clinical clerkship opportunities in appropriate, and whenever possible, local hospitals before inviting international students or dual-campus students to serve regardless of other incentives"

Boom goes the dynamite. Now what sort of laws come from this policy? we shall see.

.....here we go again and again. You claim over and over in this thread that DOs have preference of US IMGs in the eyes of Programs, and yet, when you are in Albany, you are claiming that you need legislative intervention to support DOs, as you are the victum of market forces that are working against you.

I guess it still sails over your head every time I point out to you that claiming both to have market forces working to your advantage, in suggesting that DOs are prefered over US IMGS come the match, and at the same time asking for legislative intervention to advocate for DOs because of injustes in the market - is a Janus faced argument.

It's interesting in your legislative efforts that you are attempting to allign your interests(DOs) with those of LCME Medical Schools (U.S MD) in an effort to push out US IMGS from NY clinical sites, works in parellel with your emotional need(s) to elevate your your self-esteem to the level of LCME medical school grads, and to distance yourself and fellow DOs from US IMGS and away from the lable and stigma of being an alternative school graduate. SGU grads and students often do the exact same thing, only in reverse.

Regarless, you have an uphill battle, as NYS is very hard pressed for $$, and you will have a very difficult time convincing the state to come up with the money that would inevitably have to be replaced if city hospitals are forced to give up the money from schools like AUC, Saba, Ross, and SGU, and if city hospitals that are currently stuggling to stay afloat are instead forced to accept less money due to the anti-competative nature of this bill.

 

[patel2]

.....here we go again and again. You claim over and over in this thread that DOs have preference of US IMGs in the eyes of Programs, and yet, when you are in Albany, you are claiming that you need legislative intervention to support DOs, as you are the victum of market forces that are working against you.

I guess it still sails over your head every time I point out to you that claiming both to have market forces working to your advantage, in suggesting that DOs are prefered over US IMGS come the match, and at the same time asking for legislative intervention to advocate for DOs because of injustes in the market - is a Janus faced argument.

It's interesting in your legislative efforts that you are attempting to allign your interests(DOs) with those of LCME Medical Schools (U.S MD) in an effort to push out US IMGS from NY clinical sites, works in parellel with your emotional need(s) to elevate your your self-esteem to the level of LCME medical school grads, and to distance yourself and fellow DOs from US IMGS and away from the lable and stigma of being an alternative school graduate.

Regarless, you have an uphill battle, as NYS is very hard pressed for $$, and you will have a very difficult time convincing the state to come up with the money that would inevitably have to be replaced if city hospitals are forced to give up the money from schools like AUC, Saba, Ross, and SGU, and if hospitals are instead forced to accept less money due to the anti-competative nature of this bill.

As I understand, it's the NYC MDs that are the most ardent supporters of legislative intervention. There are more MD schools being displaced by Carib students in NYC than DO schools (columbia, downstate, nymc etc.)

And I think you are fixating all too much on your perception of the "low self-esteem issues of DO students". I think you are probably right that many DO students (dare I say majority?) would have gone to an MD school had they had the numbers/an acceptance. Not all, but many, in the same way most people would choose Harvard over Howard if they had the choice. Regardless, all sections of SDN (not just pre-osteo) are genuinely of the belief that DO is a safer route than Caribbean for ultimately becoming a practicing physician in the United States...would you even contest that? Seriously- the Carib/DO question gets asked every single day on pre-allo. Many certainly have their biases against DOs, but even among these people it is almost unheard of for someone to recommend SGU over, say, NYCOM. The responses will alwaysl be to take the DO acceptance, or to do an SMP and only apply MD, but never to book a one way ticket down to the caribbean.

As an entire website on the whole, SDN is biased to believe that DO is the safer decision for becoming a licensed physician (and for specializing), based on the fact that ~100% of DO students will graduate and match into a residency within 4 years. Carib schools vary in quality, with some much better than others, but none of them can make a comparable claim. On ValueMD you have a different set of people who believe the opposite...they place a greater emphasis on the MD initials, and the benefits of this prestige and title outweigh many of the potential risks/downsides.

 

[DocEspana]

This is off-topic, but I'm really surprised by the bolded. You are saying that a carib grad was considered as more preferable to a DO student 15 years ago? Did DOs have much poor match rates in ACGME back then? And what are you basing the statement that only in the last 15 years DOs have achieved the parity (in terms of residency admissions) that they did not previously have.

I do not speak from a position of proof (So dont ask me to provide 15 year old data on the matter) but rather from an extensive data of personal conversations with hospital administrators and residency directors of (almost exclusively) ACGME residencies. This is their comment that, even as recently as 15 years ago, DO was the degree of people who were too weak to get MD and wanted to be family docs.

except 15 years ago the DOs were getting derm, optho, anesthesiology (en masse) and probably a few rads here and there. This grew into a strong respect from the MD community that has reflected over into current hiring processes. They will still hire the best qualifed candidate, but they frequently repeat that its not the degree that is taken into effect, but the final results. And DO's are, in many cases, in DO schools because standardized tests frequently fail them... and both the USMLE and COMLEX are standardized tests.

 

[munchymanRX]

Hey, we all get to be doctors still, right? See patients, help the human condition and all that? If you're in it for the prestige go be a banker... (not directed at anyone in particular)

 

[Poliscidoc]

If you REALLY want to look at all of the data. Let's look at all of the data. I decided it was time to have some concrete data on the AOA match that was well organized. I copied the horrendously formatted 2011 AOA match results from here and edited into a speadsheet which I have attached.

To further illustrate my point i'll clump all of the IMG's together (even though this was really only about the Caribbean. I'll use your hand picked specialties as examples. My data now includes PGY - 1 matches for MD + DO matches

Ortho- 87 DO , 15 by IMG (3 Caribbean)

ENT- 22 DO , 5 IMG (1 Caribbean) (AOA has ENT as Oto + Plastics so not sure about this)

Neurosurg- 13 DO, 7 IMG (3 Caribbean)

Plastics 22 DO, 3 IMG (0 Caribbean) (AOA has ENT as Oto + Plastics so not sure about this)

How about we add some more.

Anesthesiology- 103 DO, 23 Caribbean
Derm - 26 DO, 0 Caribbean
Emergency Medicine- 375 DO, 22 Caribbean




Why even argue?

 

[DrFraud]

Seriously- the Carib/DO question gets asked every single day on pre-allo. Many certainly have their biases against DOs, but even among these people it is almost unheard of for someone to recommend SGU over, say, NYCOM.

The responses will alwaysl be to take the DO acceptance, or to do an SMP and only apply MD, but never to book a one way ticket down to the caribbean.

As an entire website on the whole, SDN is biased to believe that DO is the safer decision for becoming a licensed physician (and for specializing), based on the fact that ~100% of DO students will graduate and match into a residency within 4 years. Carib schools vary in quality, with some much better than others, but none of them can make a comparable claim. On ValueMD you have a different set of people who believe the opposite...they place a greater emphasis on the MD initials, and the benefits of this prestige and title outweigh many of the potential risks/downsides.

Well I did not go DO and I did not attend SGU, but I have listened on and on forever and forever from both groups about how much both groups of alternative pathway students and graduates are the the 'Best', 'super greatest', and the 'leader', when it comes to alternative pathways.

Listening to a DO or an SGU student with a supersized cranium/ego is about a laughable as listening to Howard Stern claim that one day he will have a mainstream network T.V. show, or listening to someone outside of an OTB telling me that for 10$, he could give me the horse racing tip of the decade.

But there is really just a complete lack of objective anaylyis going into your 'scientific' poll. While online advice can be helpful, its something that you should never hang your hat on. A few years ago, right before the housing market crash, you heard many many people saying over and over again that everyone should ruch out and buy a house as when this frenzy reached its peak it was right before the carpet was pulled out from underneath everyones feet.

You contine to claim to know why everyone on ValueMD goes to a Carib. program, and yet your statments show very little insight - claiming that MD initials are the only conceivable reason why an individual such as myself might undertake training in Allopathic medicine vs. your believe that the only viable alternative whatsoever is the choice you made - going DO.

DO has yet to become saturated, but if DO schools keep expanding at the rate that they are, they this will eventually happen. When the point is reached four years from now ? six? or who knows exactly when, and when DO students start competing with other DO students for the availible AOA spots and for spots at the Allopathic programs, you might find a change in tone and people who opted to go DO might find themselves wishing instead that they obtained an MD degree.

Its difficult to predict what the landscape will look like 4-6 years from now, outside that you will see many more DOs out there looking for a shrinking number of Allopathic spots, and the rest competing for the AOA spots that are likely to get much more competative. Given the math, I can't see how things could possibly get any better for DO students and they certainly could get worse, which expains why DO advocates like DocEspana are trying to get legislative intervention, an effort that will very unlikely make it any better for DOs.

Good luck in your studies.

 

[DrFraud]

....

 

[DocEspana]

I just don't get how this is pro DO legislation? I wrote this at the behest of Columbia, Cornell, New York Medical College, Einstein, Downstate, Mt. Sinai, Touro and Sophie Davis. Allopathic schools demanded this, only one osteopathic was on that list and I happen to go there. IDK if the clamor from Touro would be as loud if I wasn't the one making it for my school, but the allopathics were fired up over this long before I was ever a member of the AMA. This has been the 4th attempt at passing this policy in New York State and who knows how many times it was put on the floor of the AMA nationally.

This above question will probably get an answer, but I want to clarify right now that its a rhetorical question. My mind is clearly locked in that I know who approached me and first told me about this, I know what schools they went to, and I know it was an annoyance to me and a huge injustice to them.... I can't be convinced it is a DO issue given how I began to be involved in it. Just putting the disclaimer out there to save you from typing it.

It's an american grad thing. Not a DO thing. And sure we're arrogant. No doubting that. But it is the american way to protect american interests and American organizations are moving to do exactly that. Its a slow move, possibly years long, but it has officially begun. Before yesterday it was always New York "Will" do something. Now it's NY "has begun" to do something.

 

[87DO15]

Well I did not go DO and I did not attend SGU, but I have listened on and on forever and forever from both groups about how much both groups of alternative pathway students and graduates are the the 'Best', 'super greatest', and the 'leader', when it comes to alternative pathways.

Listening to a DO or an SGU student with a supersized cranium/ego is about a laughable as listening to Howard Stern claim that one day he will have a mainstream network T.V. show, or listening to someone outside of an OTB telling me that for 10$, he could give me the horse racing tip of the decade.

But there is really just a complete lack of objective anaylyis going into your 'scientific' poll. While online advice can be helpful, its something that you should never hang your hat on. A few years ago, right before the housing market crash, you heard many many people saying over and over again that everyone should ruch out and buy a house as when this frenzy reached its peak it was right before the carpet was pulled out from underneath everyones feet.

You contine to claim to know why everyone on ValueMD goes to a Carib. program, and yet your statments show very little insight - claiming that MD initials are the only conceivable reason why an individual such as myself might undertake training in Allopathic medicine vs. your believe that the only viable alternative whatsoever is the choice you made - going DO.

DO has yet to become saturated, but if DO schools keep expanding at the rate that they are, they this will eventually happen. When the point is reached four years from now ? six? or who knows exactly when, and when DO students start competing with other DO students for the availible AOA spots and for spots at the Allopathic programs, you might find a change in tone and people who opted to go DO might find themselves wishing instead that they obtained an MD degree.

Its difficult to predict what the landscape will look like 4-6 years from now, outside that you will see many more DOs out there looking for a shrinking number of Allopathic spots, and the rest competing for the AOA spots that are likely to get much more competative. Given the math, I can't see how things could possibly get any better for DO students and they certainly could get worse, which expains why DO advocates like DocEspana are trying to get legislative intervention, an effort that will very unlikely make it any better for DOs.

Good luck in your studies.

The bold part makes no sense. I don't even understand what you're trying to get at here. Yes, the AOA spots will get more competitive. Are you assuming, or implying, that DOs will be shut out of the ACGME match or something, and that Carib MDs will have an easier time in the future? I haven't read the entire thread, so if you're trying to refer back to something, let me know. But for now, this makes no sense...

 

[DocEspana]

The bold part makes no sense. I don't even understand what you're trying to get at here. Yes, the AOA spots will get more competitive. Are you assuming, or implying, that DOs will be shut out of the ACGME match or something, and that Carib MDs will have an easier time in the future? I haven't read the entire thread, so if you're trying to refer back to something, let me know. But for now, this makes no sense...

just pointing out that, if my mind isnt failing me, there are just over 8,000 excess NRMP spots after just under 15,000 US MDs enter the match. Since there is just under ~4000 DO graduates, we could fit our entire existence twice fold into the NRMP and still have room for more people to apply without a single AOA match. So you're right, right now there is a ton of room in the NRMP. And the AOA match hospitals are increasing too (since they share the same pot of money if one is allowed to increase, they both are at some rate)

 

[HockeyDr09]

.....here we go again and again. You claim over and over in this thread that DOs have preference of US IMGs in the eyes of Programs, and yet, when you are in Albany, you are claiming that you need legislative intervention to support DOs, as you are the victum of market forces that are working against you.

I guess it still sails over your head every time I point out to you that claiming both to have market forces working to your advantage, in suggesting that DOs are prefered over US IMGS come the match, and at the same time asking for legislative intervention to advocate for DOs because of injustes in the market - is a Janus faced argument.

It's interesting in your legislative efforts that you are attempting to allign your interests(DOs) with those of LCME Medical Schools (U.S MD) in an effort to push out US IMGS from NY clinical sites, works in parellel with your emotional need(s) to elevate your your self-esteem to the level of LCME medical school grads, and to distance yourself and fellow DOs from US IMGS and away from the lable and stigma of being an alternative school graduate. SGU grads and students often do the exact same thing, only in reverse.

Regarless, you have an uphill battle, as NYS is very hard pressed for $$, and you will have a very difficult time convincing the state to come up with the money that would inevitably have to be replaced if city hospitals are forced to give up the money from schools like AUC, Saba, Ross, and SGU, and if city hospitals that are currently stuggling to stay afloat are instead forced to accept less money due to the anti-competative nature of this bill.

Well I did not go DO and I did not attend SGU, but I have listened on and on forever and forever from both groups about how much both groups of alternative pathway students and graduates are the the 'Best', 'super greatest', and the 'leader', when it comes to alternative pathways.

Listening to a DO or an SGU student with a supersized cranium/ego is about a laughable as listening to Howard Stern claim that one day he will have a mainstream network T.V. show, or listening to someone outside of an OTB telling me that for 10$, he could give me the horse racing tip of the decade.

But there is really just a complete lack of objective anaylyis going into your 'scientific' poll. While online advice can be helpful, its something that you should never hang your hat on. A few years ago, right before the housing market crash, you heard many many people saying over and over again that everyone should ruch out and buy a house as when this frenzy reached its peak it was right before the carpet was pulled out from underneath everyones feet.

You contine to claim to know why everyone on ValueMD goes to a Carib. program, and yet your statments show very little insight - claiming that MD initials are the only conceivable reason why an individual such as myself might undertake training in Allopathic medicine vs. your believe that the only viable alternative whatsoever is the choice you made - going DO.

DO has yet to become saturated, but if DO schools keep expanding at the rate that they are, they this will eventually happen. When the point is reached four years from now ? six? or who knows exactly when, and when DO students start competing with other DO students for the availible AOA spots and for spots at the Allopathic programs, you might find a change in tone and people who opted to go DO might find themselves wishing instead that they obtained an MD degree.

Its difficult to predict what the landscape will look like 4-6 years from now, outside that you will see many more DOs out there looking for a shrinking number of Allopathic spots, and the rest competing for the AOA spots that are likely to get much more competative. Given the math, I can't see how things could possibly get any better for DO students and they certainly could get worse, which expains why DO advocates like DocEspana are trying to get legislative intervention, an effort that will very unlikely make it any better for DOs.

Good luck in your studies.

....

You still have not mentioned anything regarding the actual match data that I posted earlier. Although this didn't surprise me, I've decided to post a larger majority of the data. I've bolded either D.O or US IMG (Caribbean) depending on which had a higher match total.



Specialty

PGY-1 Positions

Anesthesiology
D.O 103
U.S IMG 23


Dermatology
D.O 26
U.S IMG 0

Emergency Medicine
D.O 375
U.S IMG 109

Emergency Med/Family Med
D.O 10
U.S IMG 1

Family Medicine
D.O 656
U.S IMG 439

Internal Medicine (Categorical)
D.O 609
U.S IMG 460

Neurological Surgery
D.O 12
U.S IMG 3

Neurology
D.O 31
U.S IMG 20

Obstetrics-Gynecology
D.O 173
U.S IMG 76

Orthopedic Surgery
D.O 87
U.S IMG 3

Otolaryngology
D.O 11
U.S IMG 1

Pathology
D.O 31
U.S IMG 31

Pediatrics
D.O 251
U.S IMG 147

Physical Medicine & Rehab
D.O 18
U.S IMG 9

Plastic Surgery (Integrated)
D.O 11
U.S IMG 0

Psychiatry (Categorical)
D.O 132
U.S IMG 129

Radiology-Diagnostic
D.O 8
U.S IMG 4

Surgery (Categorical)
D.O 122
U.S IMG 51

Surgery-Preliminary (PGY-1 Only)
D.O 19
U.S IMG 81

Transitional (PGY-1 Only)
D.O 267
U.S IMG 33

Urology
D.O 19
U.S IMG 0

There are more D.O's the U.S IMG's in 19 of 21 specialties, and 1 specialty had the same amount. How anyone can question whether or not to go D.O or Caribbean surprises me. If you want the M.D initials, then go for it, just know the risks. If you want to practice in the U.S however, you will be better off going to a D.O school. Just look at the data. This does not even take into account the attrition rates for the Caribbean school. Couple that with the fact that there is a possibility that Caribbean schools will be losing rotation sites, and it will be getting even worse for Caribbean grads.

Here is some more data. This is ONLY from the MD match, there were another 1600 DO's that matched in the AOA match.

Active Applicants
DO = 2,045
US IMG = 3,695

Matched
DO = 1,444
US IMG = 1,749

Unmatched
DO = 601
US IMG = 1,946

Matching %
DO = 70%
US IMG = 47%

Of the US IMG's that made it through medical school, 1,946 of them didn't even match. This does not even take into consideration how many Caribbean grads didn't make it through the curriculum.

I really hope anyone who has to decide between Caribbean and D.O reads this post. You can't really make an educated decision without all of the data.

Again I ask, why even argue over this? The data is clear.

 

[DrFraud]

I just don't get how this is pro DO legislation? I wrote this at the behest of Columbia, Cornell, New York Medical College, Einstein, Downstate, Mt. Sinai, Touro and Sophie Davis. Allopathic schools demanded this, only one osteopathic was on that list and I happen to go there. IDK if the clamor from Touro would be as loud if I wasn't the one making it for my school, but the allopathics were fired up over this long before I was ever a member of the AMA. This has been the 4th attempt at passing this policy in New York State and who knows how many times it was put on the floor of the AMA nationally.

This above question will probably get an answer, but I want to clarify right now that its a rhetorical question. My mind is clearly locked in that I know who approached me and first told me about this, I know what schools they went to, and I know it was an annoyance to me and a huge injustice to them.... I can't be convinced it is a DO issue given how I began to be involved in it. Just putting the disclaimer out there to save you from typing it.

It's an american grad thing. Not a DO thing. And sure we're arrogant. No doubting that. But it is the american way to protect american interests and American organizations are moving to do exactly that. Its a slow move, possibly years long, but it has officially begun. Before yesterday it was always New York "Will" do something. Now it's NY "has begun" to do something.

One flaw in your logic is that you have failed, in your legislative efforts in NY, to articulate and adress exactly how your efforts benefit New Yorkers. A DO student from Arizona or Cali, going to a DO program out west, and doing rotations in NY and who has a higher likelyhood of returning to the West, would likely not serve the better interests of New York state citizens and taxpayers, then say, a New Yorker who goes to a off shore program like Saba, and who wants do do clinical rotations, residency, and one day wants to practice in their home state of New York.

Rather than triaging alternative school students based on where they go to school, a better plan for New Yorkers would be to consider where the student who perform med school rotations were from b-4 going to medical school, as it should not matter whether a New Yorkes spends 20 months on Saba, in England, Israel, Poland, or Ireland, or at a DO school in Colorado to learn basic sciences, rather, what should matter to New York state taxpayers is triaging allternative pathway students (DO, US IMG, etc) based on whether they are from New York or outside of New York - as the students from New York would be more likely to do their residency and want to practice in New York.

It seems disengenous from the perspective of New York state taxpayers to advocate a system that would give priority to out of state residents going to Osteopathic programs out west and who have a low likeihood of ever serving New Yorkers, over New York state residents attending off shore MD programs who have a much higher likelihood of serving in New York.

 

[87DO15]

One flaw in your logic is that you have failed, in your legislative efforts in NY, to articulate and adress exactly how your efforts benefit New Yorkers. A DO student from Arizona or Cali, going to a DO program out west, and doing rotations in NY and who has a higher likelyhood of returning to the West, would likely not serve the better interests of New York state citizens and taxpayers, then say, a New Yorker who goes to a off shore program like Saba, and who wants do do clinical rotations, residency, and one day wants to practice in their home state of New York.

Rather than triaging alternative school students based on where they go to school, a better plan for New Yorkers would be to consider where the student who perform med school rotations were from b-4 going to medical school, as it should not matter whether a New Yorkes spends 20 months on Saba, in England, Israel, Poland, or Ireland, or at a DO school in Colorado, rather, what should matter to New York state taxpayers is triaging allternative pathway students (DO, US IMG, etc) based on whether they are from New York or outside of New York - as the students from New York would be more likely to do their residency and want to practice in New York.

It seems disengenous from the perspective of New York state taxpayers to advocate a system that would give priority to out of state residents going to Osteopathic programs out west and who have a low likeihood of ever serving New Yorkers, over New York state residents attending off shore MD programs who have a much higher likelihood of serving in New York.

That's a terrible argument. New York City is one of the most sought after places in terms of residencies, they will get their applicants even if it was only through US MD or DO. By that logic, students from Stanford, UCSF, UW, UCLA, etc. should not be allowed to try and train in NYC because they might leave. And do you honestly think NYC or New York in general, of all places, will lack doctors who want to work there? Carib. grads aren't special in wanting to live and work in NY, and to say so is just ludicrous. (That said, I'm going to a DO school and I will stab myself before applying to an NYC residency...or much of the north, really...too damn cold)

 

[DrFraud]

just pointing out that, if my mind isnt failing me, there are just over 8,000 excess NRMP spots after just under 15,000 US MDs enter the match. Since there is just under ~4000 DO graduates, we could fit our entire existence twice fold into the NRMP and still have room for more people to apply without a single AOA match. So you're right, right now there is a ton of room in the NRMP. And the AOA match hospitals are increasing too (since they share the same pot of money if one is allowed to increase, they both are at some rate)

And I understand that that is your hope and goal and that DOs will sqeeze out all others, but this is not realistic. But I understand why you hope one day to be the best alternative pathway. This is the same reason SGU wants to be the 'leader' of alternative pathways. The more ahead of the rest of the pack you are, the closer you will be able to declare DO to be the most viable alternative pathway to allopathic training, and therefore remove some of the shame that is experienced by students who opt to go DO due to the inablility to get into a US LCME MD program. Like SGU students, you efforts in large measure are directed at attempting to put down others, and carrying around a supersized ego that couldn't fit into Madison Square Gardens.

But it is unlikly going to be the case that program directors are going to take their Cue from SGU proponents or DO proponents. Residency programs and residency program directors have historic tendencies for selecting applicants that have historically not changed very rapidly and that are unlikely to change rapidly in the furture.

A more reasonable scenerio is that competion will heat up across all levels and that will be especially problematic for DO students who a choosing DO based on current numbers at it is very likely that it will be much harder to match 5-6 years from now given the large increases in DO students today. Given that the number of allopathic residency places availible 4-5 years from now will not significantly change, your wish that suddenly, all programs and program directors who select US IMG MDs will suddenly shift in a way that they have not done so in the past is very unlikely to be a realistic solution to the problems that will likely follow as a result of the DO expansion that is currently happening.

 

[patel2]

One flaw in your logic is that you have failed, in your legislative efforts in NY, to articulate and adress exactly how your efforts benefit New Yorkers. A DO student from Arizona or Cali, going to a DO program out west, and doing rotations in NY and who has a higher likelyhood of returning to the West, would likely not serve the better interests of New York state citizens and taxpayers, then say, a New Yorker who goes to a off shore program like Saba, and who wants do do clinical rotations, residency, and one day wants to practice in their home state of New York.

Rather than triaging alternative school students based on where they go to school, a better plan for New Yorkers would be to consider where the student who perform med school rotations were from b-4 going to medical school, as it should not matter whether a New Yorkes spends 20 months on Saba, in England, Israel, Poland, or Ireland, or at a DO school in Colorado to learn basic sciences, rather, what should matter to New York state taxpayers is triaging allternative pathway students (DO, US IMG, etc) based on whether they are from New York or outside of New York - as the students from New York would be more likely to do their residency and want to practice in New York.

It seems disengenous from the perspective of New York state taxpayers to advocate a system that would give priority to out of state residents going to Osteopathic programs out west and who have a low likeihood of ever serving New Yorkers, over New York state residents attending off shore MD programs who have a much higher likelihood of serving in New York.

It was said that 41% of the IMG students doing clinicals in NYC are American citizens. So over 60% are true foreigners, and who knows what percent of that 41% is actually from NY. It's curious that you cite an example comparing osteopathic students from out west doing away rotations in NYC to the carib schools doing the same thing. It's funny that you don't cite US MD's doing away rotations in NYC (which is presumably just as frequent). The reason you do this is that your entire argument doesn't want to acknowledge that this legislation isn't even remotely a DO versus IMG issue, but a US medical student (i.e. organized medicine trying to protect their interests, fair or unfair) versus foreign schools. I'm not commenting on whether this legislation is just or unjust, and I have many qualms about the AMA and organized medical groups limiting capitalism, but the resolution has nothing to do with DOs specifically.


Also, the vast majority of US students rotating in NY are from Columbia, NYU, Touro, NYCOM, NYMC, Albany (if they wanted), Mt. Sinai, Touro. Only a small percentage can be found from DO and MD students doing away rotations there, and the vast majority of schools being displaced are the US MDs

 

[DrFraud]

That's a terrible argument. New York City is one of the most sought after places in terms of residencies, they will get their applicants even if it was only through US MD or DO.

New York could also get all of their applicants from US MD and US IMG. But I love the argument. Lump together DO and US MD, and eventually, you will have the self esteme of a US LCME graduate.

But why should New York state taxpayers exclude New York state citizens who are going abroad to study from completing their clincal rotations in New York, while at the same time allowing DO students from out west to perform their rotations in New York. You don't make a very clear or convincing argument to explain how New York state citicens and taxpayers benefit from having out-of-state alternative programs students in New York performing clinical rotations at the expence of New Yorkers who pursue a portion of their Medical training outside of the U.S.

 

[DrFraud]

It was said that 41% of the IMG students doing clinicals in NYC are American citizens. So over 60% are true foreigners, and who knows what percent of that 41% is actually from NY. It's curious that you cite an example comparing osteopathic students from out west doing away rotations in NYC to the carib schools doing the same thing. It's funny that you don't cite US MD's doing away rotations in NYC (which is presumably just as frequent). The reason you do this is that your entire argument doesn't want to acknowledge that this legislation isn't even remotely a DO versus IMG issue, but a US medical student (i.e. organized medicine trying to protect their interests, fair or unfair) versus foreign schools.

You are comparing two things that are not equal. A student who pursues their medical training at home or abroad is a U.S. citizens-medical student.

Likewise, a student from abroad who pursues their medical training in the U.S and who attends a U.S medical school might not be a native U.S. citizen and is not a U.S citizen-medical student.

What the proposed legislatve language, as I currently understand it, says is that students attending Alternative medical schools located in the U.S. such as DO (regardless of whether the students are U.S citizens or not, and regardless if the students are from New York or not) should have preference in New York hospital clinical rotations over those alternatvie pathway students who pursue their eduation abroad, even if the studetns are American citizens and even if the students are from New York.

A U.S citizen who goes to medical school at Ross, Israel, or the Phillapines to get an MD degree is still a U.S. citizen, and is a U.S student.

 

[GTP]

One flaw in your logic is that you have failed, in your legislative efforts in NY, to articulate and adress exactly how your efforts benefit New Yorkers. A DO student from Arizona or Cali, going to a DO program out west, and doing rotations in NY and who has a higher likelyhood of returning to the West, would likely not serve the better interests of New York state citizens and taxpayers, then say, a New Yorker who goes to a off shore program like Saba, and who wants do do clinical rotations, residency, and one day wants to practice in their home state of New York.

Rather than triaging alternative school students based on where they go to school, a better plan for New Yorkers would be to consider where the student who perform med school rotations were from b-4 going to medical school, as it should not matter whether a New Yorkes spends 20 months on Saba, in England, Israel, Poland, or Ireland, or at a DO school in Colorado to learn basic sciences, rather, what should matter to New York state taxpayers is triaging allternative pathway students (DO, US IMG, etc) based on whether they are from New York or outside of New York - as the students from New York would be more likely to do their residency and want to practice in New York.

It seems disengenous from the perspective of New York state taxpayers to advocate a system that would give priority to out of state residents going to Osteopathic programs out west and who have a low likeihood of ever serving New Yorkers, over New York state residents attending off shore MD programs who have a much higher likelihood of serving in New York.

It's amazing how you keep beating this particular dead horse and fail to comment on the caribbean poor match results. Though the legislation proposed by Doc is interesting, this probably won't be actioned for another 6 years. The real matter at hand is how caribbean grads are currently performing in comparison to the D.Os. It is clear from the previously described match results that there are no advantages in going to the caribbean over D.O. Yet, you claim that there are students who go to caribbean for reasons other than to receive the M.D initials. What are these reasons? Why would anyone leave their families and friends to head to a foreign country? The only reason I can think of, other than an inflated ego, is getting rejected from a D.O school. I know TONS of students who attend the big four caribbean schools who scored 18-20 on their mcats. Clearly, they couldn't hack a D.O acceptance. Funny enough, they are expected to smash through an MD degree in 4 years.

Moreover, it is clear from your previous posts that you will continue your rants in effort to justify going the caribbean route despite the fact that the match data state otherwise. Even without match data, it is abundantly known that D.Os have an easier time obtaining residencies. Countless people, even uninformed pre-meds or lay people, have heard at least one or two horror stories about Ross/SGU grads who couldn't get residency and are now stuck with huge amounts of debt. Can't say the same for D.O students. Any D.O student who doesn't match at all either didn't want to (left medicine/took a year off for research) or was an average student gunning for ortho/derm without proper back ups in place.

Also, the match data does not even comment on how long it took the newly matched caribbean students to obtain residencies. Did it take one, two, three + years (post-graduation) to match? Did they have to do M.Scs or Ph.Ds? I have a good friend at SGU who is in his sixth year and just wrote step one last year. Though people do fail and remediate at D.O schools, I have yet to see someone take 7-8 years to complete the degree.

These are the real issues. Not some legislation that has not even passed (no offense Doc. I'm also on your side as ill be attending Touro-Ny this fall and don't want my rotation spots scooped either).

 

[HockeyDr09]

And I understand that that is your hope and goal and that DOs will sqeeze out all others, but this is not realistic. But I understand why you hope one day to be the best alternative pathway. This is the same reason SGU wants to be the 'leader' of alternative pathways. The more ahead of the rest of the pack you are, the closer you will be able to declare DO to be the most viable alternative pathway to allopathic training, and therefore remove some of the shame that is experienced by students who opt to go DO due to the inablility to get into a US LCME MD program. Like SGU students, you efforts in large measure are directed at attempting to put down others, and carrying around a supersized ego that couldn't fit into Madison Square Gardens.

But it is unlikly going to be the case that program directors are going to take their Cue from SGU proponents or DO proponents. Residency programs and residency program directors have historic tendencies for selecting applicants that have historically not changed very rapidly and that are unlikely to change rapidly in the furture.

A more reasonable scenerio is that competion will heat up across all levels and that will be especially problematic for DO students who a choosing DO based on current numbers at it is very likely that it will be much harder to match 5-6 years from now given the large increases in DO students today. Given that the number of allopathic residency places availible 4-5 years from now will not significantly change, your wish that suddenly, all programs and program directors who select US IMG MDs will suddenly shift in a way that they have not done so in the past is very unlikely to be a realistic solution to the problems that will likely follow as a result of the DO expansion that is currently happening.

I see you're still ignoring the statistics.

See attached graph from MD match data showing an increase of DO matching in the last 4 years and a decrease of IMG matching in that same time frame. This graph even clumps together US and Non-US IMG. The graph would be decreasing even more steadily if it had just shown US IMG. I have no idea what these "historic tendencies" you're speaking of but the graph attached proves otherwise. You refuse to provide evidence for ANY of your arguments.

New York could also get all of their applicants from US MD and US IMG. But I love the argument. Lump together DO and US MD, and eventually, you will have the self esteme of a US LCME graduate.

But why should New York state taxpayers exclude New York state citizens who are going abroad to study from completing their clincal rotations in New York, while at the same time allowing DO students from out west to perform their rotations in New York. You don't make a very clear or convincing argument to explain how New York state citicens and taxpayers benefit from having out-of-state alternative programs students in New York performing clinical rotations at the expence of New Yorkers who pursue a portion of their Medical training outside of the U.S.

It has nothing to do with "self esteme", and it has everything to do with wanting to match in the residency of your choice. If the Caribbean was proven to land me a better residency, had better attrition rates, and was in the U.S, I would have totally went to one over a D.O school. If anyone had self esteem issues, it would most likely be the few students who chose the Caribbean over D.O solely on the fact that they wanted to be an MD.

 

[87DO15]

New York could also get all of their applicants from US MD and US IMG. But I love the argument. Lump together DO and US MD, and eventually, you will have the self esteme of a US LCME graduate.

But why should New York state taxpayers exclude New York state citizens who are going abroad to study from completing their clincal rotations in New York, while at the same time allowing DO students from out west to perform their rotations in New York. You don't make a very clear or convincing argument to explain how New York state citicens and taxpayers benefit from having out-of-state alternative programs students in New York performing clinical rotations at the expence of New Yorkers who pursue a portion of their Medical training outside of the U.S.

Not quite. I said that even if such legislation took place, barring US IMG from rotations, that NYC would have more than enough applicants. Your argument makes no sense because that is not the legislation that is being proposed. If there was something that said only US MDs and Carib MDs should be allowed, I'd be as upset as you, sure. But there isn't.

And yet again, you try to imply that DO students should feel inferior. You've said it several times in this thread, but constantly repeating it won't make it true. You may want to stop reading between the lines. I'm just responding to the actual info presented here...your US MD + US IMG only thing is not actually a reality, but what DocEspana posted is...so yeah...

And the out-west rotations thing doesn't make sense. Is it not just the NYC schools that are doing this because the Carib schools are making it difficult for their students to gain training? And yeah, not all Carib students are from New Yorkers..a huge portion are FL/CA residents...so that part of your argument still confuses me...should non-NY Carib students not be allowed to rotate in NY either, then?

 

[DrFraud]

Why would anyone leave their families and friends to head to a foreign country? The only reason I can think of, other than an inflated ego, is getting rejected from a D.O school. I know TONS of students who attend the big four caribbean schools who scored 18-20 on their mcats. Clearly, they couldn't hack a D.O acceptance.

You have a very narrow perspective if you think the only 2 places a U.S citizen might pursue their medical education is the U.S or Carib. or if the only reason why someone would opt to study their basic sciences training outside of the U.S. in comparison to D.O. is because they were rejected from D.O programs, but it does fit into the paradigm of oversized egos as your conclsion clearly assumes that everyone has to have the exact same perspective that you have and that your perspective is the only possible correct one - one day you will hopefully see that this is a defence mechanism for obvios anxiety that you are experiencing over not getting acceptance to an LCME MD program.

 

[munchymanRX]

New York could also get all of their applicants from US MD and US IMG. But I love the argument. Lump together DO and US MD, and eventually, you will have the self esteme of a US LCME graduate.

But why should New York state taxpayers exclude New York state citizens who are going abroad to study from completing their clincal rotations in New York, while at the same time allowing DO students from out west to perform their rotations in New York. You don't make a very clear or convincing argument to explain how New York state citicens and taxpayers benefit from having out-of-state alternative programs students in New York performing clinical rotations at the expence of New Yorkers who pursue a portion of their Medical training outside of the U.S.

The taxpayer argument doesn't really hold, since many medical schools in NY (MD or DO) are private and as such have no obligation to serve the NY community.

Also, the schools PAY rotation sites to have spots for their 3rd and 4th years, not the taxpayers. If you think medical education is all about serving the community at large, you're sadly mistaken. It's a business like any other and all about where the money comes from--at least from an administrative standpoint.

 

[87DO15]

You have a very narrow perspective if you think the only 2 places a U.S citizen might pursue their medical education is the U.S or Carib. or if the only reason why someone would opt to study their basic sciences training outside of the U.S. in comparison to D.O. is because they were rejected from D.O programs, but it does fit into the paradigm of oversized egos as your conclsion clearly assumes that everyone has to have the exact same perspective that you have and that your perspective is the only possible correct one.

Okay, as I'm sure many have asked before: why?

I know many people who went overseas instead of D.O., and I think if this was 2005 or earlier, I would have considered it as well. But with the residency crunch, and assuming that US IMG and DO are considered equal in the eyes of all PD (which we know isn't true - some PD like US IMG, others like DO, there's no definite answer here), the AOA spots are still available.

But back to the original question...why would someone choose to go abroad? Assume they were accepted to DO schools also. If it's because they want an MD, that's fine, and just say that. Again, I know many people who went overseas specifically because they wanted an MD.

I made a choice to go to a DO school over SGU. Why does that make me egotistical? I think it's a safer option, but that means I have an overinflated ego? Obviously you think different...so do you have a bloated head as well? Is a Carib (or other overseas) MD the only viable alternative? Your posts reek of hypocrisy.

 

[DrFraud]

And yeah, not all Carib students are from New Yorkers..a huge portion are FL/CA residents...so that part of your argument still confuses me...should non-NY Carib students not be allowed to rotate in NY either, then?

If you notice, I am not advocating that FL citizens who go to SGU should get preferential spots over New Yorkers going to a DO school. What I am saying is that if NY is going to Legislate preferences for students who attend alternative pathway medical programs (Ross, SGU, AUC, Saba, DO, Sackler, etc), one factor to consider is whether the student is from New York or not, so that the law is not biased against New Yorkers who opt to pursue their training in Isreal rather than going DO. The current language does not appear to support this contingency.

 

[GTP]

You have a very narrow perspective if you think the only 2 places a U.S citizen might pursue their medical education is the U.S or Carib. or if the only reason why someone would opt to study their basic sciences training outside of the U.S. in comparison to D.O. is because they were rejected from D.O programs, but it does fit into the paradigm of oversized egos as your conclsion clearly assumes that everyone has to have the exact same perspective that you have and that your perspective is the only possible correct one - one day you will hopefully see that this is a defence mechanism for obvios anxiety that you are experiencing over not getting acceptance to an LCME MD program.

You are still not addressing the two questions I directed at you. What are your thoughts on the previously described poor caribbean match results? And other than obtaining MD initials, what is the other incentive for heading to the caribbean for 20 months when there is are perfectly fine D.O schools in america? There are obviously other non-caribbean schools out there. I applied to australia last year and decided not to go. However, this is not what we talking about. This is strictly a caribbean vs D.O discussion.

 

[DrFraud]

Okay, as I'm sure many have asked before: why?

I know many people who went overseas instead of D.O., and I think if this was 2005 or earlier, I would have considered it as well. But with the residency crunch, and assuming that US IMG and DO are considered equal in the eyes of all PD (which we know isn't true - some PD like US IMG, others like DO, there's no definite answer here), the AOA spots are still available.

But back to the original question...why would someone choose to go abroad? Assume they were accepted to DO schools also. If it's because they want an MD, that's fine, and just say that. Again, I know many people who went overseas specifically because they wanted an MD.

I made a choice to go to a DO school over SGU. Why does that make me egotistical? I think it's a safer option, but that means I have an overinflated ego? Obviously you think different...so do you have a bloated head as well? Is a Carib MD the only viable alternative? Your posts reek of hypocrisy.

I am not saying that you have an over inflated ego, insofar as your preference to pursue going DO over IMG, nor would I suggest to opposite to someone who opted to go abroad.

What I am suggesting is that someone who attends an alternative pathway, and claims that their pathway is superior and that they are thereby superior to all others who pursue alternative pathways, regardless if we are talking about DO students here, or SGU students elsewhere, are doing so as a result of poor self esteem and the oversized ego is compensation for the anxiety that is experienced over having to pursue training at an alternative medical progarm.

I AM NOT SUGGESTING THAT EVERYONE WHO ATTENDS DO OR SGU HAS A SUPERSIZED EGO. WHAT I AM SUGGESTING IS THAT THOSE WHO HAVE SUPERSIDED EGOS ARE DOING THIS OUT OF ANXIETY AND HOPE TO BOOST THEIR SELF ESTEEM BY PUTTING OTHER ALTERNATIVE PATHWAY STUDENTS DOWN IN THE HOPE THAT THIS WILL ELEVATE THEIR STATURE CLOSER TO THE LEVEL OF US LCME MD.

A very similar phenomina occured in U.S immigrant communityes a few years ago, and this was the genesis for West Side Story.

 

[87DO15]

I am not saying that you have an over inflated ego, insofar as your preference to pursue going DO over IMG, such as SGU, nor would I suggest to opposite.

What I am saying is that someone who attends an alternative pathway, and claims that their pathway is superior and that they are thereby superior to all others who pursue alternative pathways, regardless if we are talking about DO students here, or SGU students elsewhere, are doing so as a result of poor self esteem and the oversized ego is compensation for the anxiety that is experienced over having to pursue training at an alternative medical progarm.

I AM NOT SUGGESTING THAT EVERYONE WHO ATTENDS DO OR SGU HAS A SUPERSIZED EGO. WHAT I AM SUGGESTING IS THAT THOSE WHO HAVE SUPERSIDED EGOS ARE DOING THIS OUT OF ANXIETY AND HOPE TO BOOST THEIR SELF ESTEEM BY PUTTING OTHER ALTERNATIVE PATHWAY STUDENTS DOWN.

Fair enough, but I think it's probably natural to suggest the route which one took. The OP asked a question (on a pre-DO board) and got a lot of pro-DO opinions. I'm sure he'd get a lot of pro-IMG opinions on VMD or a similar site. But regardless, it's probably best for the OP to make a decision for himself. With that said, I am out...

 

[HockeyDr09]

I am not saying that you have an over inflated ego, insofar as your preference to pursue going DO over IMG, nor would I suggest to opposite to someone who opted to go abroad.

What I am suggesting is that someone who attends an alternative pathway, and claims that their pathway is superior and that they are thereby superior to all others who pursue alternative pathways, regardless if we are talking about DO students here, or SGU students elsewhere, are doing so as a result of poor self esteem and the oversized ego is compensation for the anxiety that is experienced over having to pursue training at an alternative medical progarm.

I AM NOT SUGGESTING THAT EVERYONE WHO ATTENDS DO OR SGU HAS A SUPERSIZED EGO. WHAT I AM SUGGESTING IS THAT THOSE WHO HAVE SUPERSIDED EGOS ARE DOING THIS OUT OF ANXIETY AND HOPE TO BOOST THEIR SELF ESTEEM BY PUTTING OTHER ALTERNATIVE PATHWAY STUDENTS DOWN IN THE HOPE THAT THIS WILL ELEVATE THEIR STATURE CLOSER TO THE LEVEL OF US LCME MD.

A very similar phenomina occured in U.S immigrant communityes a few years ago, and this was the genesis for West Side Story.

I can play the caps lock game as well.


I JUST WANT YOU TO COMMENT ON THE GLARING DIFFERENCES BETWEEN D.O AND CARIBBEAN MATCH RATES THAT I HAVE POSTED. NO ONE ACTUALLY CARES ABOUT EGO'S, SELF ESTEEM, AND YOUR PREVIOUS THREE REFERENCES TO WEST SIDE STORY. WHY HAVE YOU SAID NOTHING ABOUT THE DATA POSTED.

Thank you.

 

[DrFraud]

You are still not addressing the two questions I directed at you. What are your thoughts on the previously described poor caribbean match results? And other than obtaining MD initials, what is the other incentive for heading to the caribbean for 20 months when there is are perfectly fine D.O schools in america.

For me personally, my school has a much higher rate of matching at U.S allopathic residencies in Comparison to DO programs, and like I have said many times over and over, I don't really agree with the teachings or philosophy of DO so my preference was to not go down this road. I do consider DO, moving forward to be more of a viable option than it was 4-6 years ago, but as I have said, given todays expansion, it is unclear how the increased competion will affect the prospects for matching 4-6 years from now. The increase in DO might squeeze out another group, or the increased numbers might end up squeezing each other out of spots.

But I considered the many alternatvie programs out there abroad including the UK, Ireland, and Carib when I considered going to medical school(by the way I believe Ireland and UK has a different degree title than MD but still find for me these options to be preferable to DO).

 

[GTP]

I can play the caps lock game as well.


I JUST WANT YOU TO COMMENT ON THE GLARING DIFFERENCES BETWEEN D.O AND CARIBBEAN MATCH RATES THAT I HAVE POSTED. NO ONE ACTUALLY CARES ABOUT EGO'S, SELF ESTEEM, AND YOUR PREVIOUS THREE REFERENCES TO WEST SIDE STORY. WHY HAVE YOU SAID NOTHING ABOUT THE DATA POSTED.

Thank you.

+1. This discourse is pointless if you just pick and choose what you want to talk about. The only thing any reasonable person deciding between IMG and D.O should care about is the final match results, which you have conveniently failed to comment on.

 

[DocEspana]

The taxpayer argument doesn't really hold, since many medical schools in NY (MD or DO) are private and as such have no obligation to serve the NY community.

Also, the schools PAY rotation sites to have spots for their 3rd and 4th years, not the taxpayers. If you think medical education is all about serving the community at large, you're sadly mistaken. It's a business like any other and all about where the money comes from--at least from an administrative standpoint.

the *hospitals* are paid by taxpayer money. Thats what the taxpayer argument is about. Its obviously compounded if Stony Brook, Buffalo, Downstate or Upstate has a problem... but the argument was that tax money goes to these schools to clinically train NY students their cores with few exceptions for a couple spots where NY-bordering states have some affiliation. Now they are being paid to train NY students and are instead taking in fewer and fewer of them, or taking in zero, in order to get paid a second time around by offshore schools. It's not the taking of the students at all thats the problem, its that its displacing actual new york students.

An example I posted in the allopathic wing of this thread: Its like you getting into UCLA medical school and then a week later getting a letter saying that you have been un-enrolled because I agreed to pay 12x the tuition in cash and UCLA realized there wasn't enough spots for both of us, so you got booted even though I wasn't accepted until just now. You did get into UCLA, so you have the smarts to apply somewhere else and get in too, but how do you feel about what happened to you at UCLA? In this allegory there are other schools in Cali that have openings that I could have gone to, still paid 12x tuition if I wanted, and would not boot anyone out. But I chose to pay UCLA and have them boot you.

So what pisses off the schools is that they had some room for the islanders to come in, but the schools not only purchased those open spots, they purchased spots that had NY students already slotted into them and the hospitals told the schools to relocate their students.

 

[GTP]

For me personally, my school has a much higher rate of matching at U.S allopathic residencies in Comparison to DO programs, and like I have said many times over and over, I don't really agree with the teachings or philosophy of DO so my preference was to not go down this road. I do consider DO, moving forward to be more of a viable option than it was 4-6 years ago, but as I have said, given todays expansion, it is unclear how the increased competion will affect the prospects for matching 4-6 years from now. The increase in DO might squeeze out another group, or the increased numbers might end up squeezing each other out of spots.

But I considered the many alternatvie programs out there abroad including the UK, Ireland, and Carib when I considered going to medical school(by the way I believe Ireland and UK has a different degree title than MD but still find for me these options to be preferable to DO).

Your school's match results would have to be close to 100% (which would be laughable) in order to justify the risk. Also, the "my school does better in ACGME match in comparison to D.O" argument is moot because D.Os also have the AOA match. In other words, your school's match result would have to be more impressive than the combined D.O ACGME/AOA match in order for this to make sense. I'm happy for students at your school who successfully match. But as I alluded to before, how long did that take? Like I said, all reasonable D.O students who want to match in America end up matching but the same cannot be said for any caribbean school. But, to each his own. If some caribbean students hate the D.O philosophy so much (despite the fact that statistics show that they probably won't even practice it) that they are willing to disqualify themselves from another type of residency match - ie AOA, then that's cool. GL with your studies.

 

[patel2]

Your school's match results would have to be close to 100% (which would be laughable) in order to justify the risk. Also, the "my school does better in ACGME match in comparison to D.O" argument is moot because D.Os also have the AOA match. In other words, your school's match result would have to be more impressive than the combined D.O ACGME/AOA match in order for this to make sense. I'm happy for students at your school who successfully match. But as I alluded to before, how long did that take? Like I said, all reasonable D.O students who want to match in America end up matching but the same cannot be said for any caribbean school. But, to each his own. If some caribbean students hate the D.O philosophy so much (despite the fact that statistics show that they probably won't even practice it) that they are willing to disqualify themselves from another type of residency match - ie AOA, then that's cool. GL with your studies.

Caribbean students always disregard DO residencies and cling to the 71% ACGME average for all arguments. Apparently DO orthopedic surgery and DO anesthesiology residencies are all about preaching OMM and cranial as opposed to evidence-based medicine lol. With the exception of DO family medicine (which probably teaches OMM) , I don't think any DO residencies have a clinically different approach or philosophy than an ACGME one.

 

[GTP]

I'm not even sure that I buy the explanation that students choose caribbean over D.O because of OMM. Even if match results were identical, I would personally feel stupid explaining to my parents that I am going overseas because I don't want to do joint/muscle manipulation. I think Dr. Fraud and many other caribbean students would have reconsidered their decisions if D.O schools actually gave MD degrees (while still maintaining 200 hours of OMM in the curriculum). As far as I'm concenred, insecurity about being a D.O >>>>>>>>>> not liking OMM.

 

[patel2]

I'm not even sure that I buy the explanation that students choose caribbean over D.O because of OMM. Even if match results were identical, I would personally feel stupid explaining to my parents that I am going overseas because I don't want to do joint/muscle manipulation. I think Dr. Fraud and many other caribbean students would have reconsidered their decisions if D.O schools actually gave MD degrees (while still maintaining 200 hours of OMM in the curriculum). As far as I'm concenred, insecurity about being a D.O >>>>>>>>>> not liking OMM.

It's really just a different set of goals. DOs place a greater emphasis on managing risk. The reason most cited for someone to pick a DO over Carib MD is that ~100% of DO students will match somewhere, and there are greater opportunities to specialize because of two sets of matches. DOs don't place much value on the "stigma" of having to explain oneself to patients/colleagues/general public (and to be fair, most on SDN osteo would argue that this doesn't exist for the most part)

Dr. Fraud and SGU students place a far greater primacy on attaining the MD initials, which they feel garners more prestige and respect among patients/the general public. The risks of attrition/not-matching are far peripheral to the first point.

If you peruse ValueMD as an objective observer, many students there would agree with this assesment.

 

[DrFraud]

It's really just a different set of goals. DOs place a greater emphasis on managing risk. The reason most cited for someone to pick a DO over Carib MD is that ~100% of DO students will match somewhere, and there are greater opportunities to specialize because of two sets of matches. DOs don't place much value on the "stigma" of having to explain oneself to patients/colleagues/general public (and to be fair, most on SDN osteo would argue that this doesn't exist for the most part)

Dr. Fraud and SGU students place a far greater primacy on attaining the MD initials, which they feel garners more prestige and respect among patients/the general public. The risks of attrition/not-matching are far peripheral to the first point.

If you peruse ValueMD as an objective observer, many students there would agree with this assesment.

Im not an SGU student, and second, I had no problems getting lots of interviews at allopathic residency progams, etc, nor was I ever in any danger of not finishing up in less than 4 years.

I might have been the exception, but I had great classes, I did very well on my board exams, I had excellent rotations and my overall review of my program after finishing up was very positive. If I had to do it all over again with the benefit of knowing what I know now, I no doubt would repeat it if I could not get into a US LCME program.

I wasn't interested, and I am not interested in going DO....but i think its totally ok for someone who wants to do it.

There are many many reasons why students opt to get allopathic training vs. Osteopathic. For some, it might be the letters, but your explainations, like many that are written in this thread, contain over-simplified generalations.

 

[DrFraud]

the *hospitals* are paid by taxpayer money. Thats what the taxpayer argument is about. Its obviously compounded if Stony Brook, Buffalo, Downstate or Upstate has a problem... but the argument was that tax money goes to these schools to clinically train NY students their cores with few exceptions for a couple spots where NY-bordering states have some affiliation. Now they are being paid to train NY students and are instead taking in fewer and fewer of them, or taking in zero, in order to get paid a second time around by offshore schools. It's not the taking of the students at all thats the problem, its that its displacing actual new york students.

What you and many who are making this argument fail to realize (or you are purposefully trying to obfuscate) is that New York state citizens/students attend offshore medical schools and perform clinical rotations in New York hosplitals during their 3rd and 4th year of medical school.

 

[Instatewaiter]

There is a lot of posturing going on in this thread. HockeyDr makes a stong arguement with good evidence to back it up. I think few on this board would argue that Carribean is a safer bet than DO. The match rates and the attrition rates make it pretty clear that DO is a safer route. Based on improving match rates, the DO stock is rising while the IMG/FMG stock is at best stable and more likely falling. Who can tell what will happen as more students start to graduate from both US MD and US DO schoole.

That said, others on this thread have acted as if there is no DO bias...there is. I think anyone who has gone through the match will agree. There is also a strong FMG/IMG bias, especially depending on what school you come from. There is a clear hierarchy in Carribean.

 

[DrFraud]

The match rates and the attrition rates make it pretty clear that DO is a safer route. Based on improving match rates, the DO stock is rising while the IMG/FMG stock is at best stable and more likely falling. Who can tell what will happen as more students start to graduate from both US MD and US DO schoole.

While this is happening in your head, you self esteem is waxing, and the cognitive discorse that you experiencing of having to go to an alternative pathway is slowly waning as the perception that your choice of alternative medical schools is reinforced by multiple people who have made the same choice as you and they posting cherry picked data, make sweeping generalizations like you, and post anacdotal stories of how everyone who agrees with you must be correct.......

Stangly in anothe parallel universe, the same thing is happening, only in reverse on the SGU forum......

 

[HockeyDr09]

While this is happening in your head, you self esteem is waxing, and the cognitive discorse that you experiencing of having to go to an alternative pathway is slowly waning as the perception that your choice of alternative medical schools is reinforced by multiple people who have made the same choice as you and they posting cherry picked data, make sweeping generalizations like you, and post anacdotal stories of how everyone who agrees with you must be correct.......

Stangly in anothe parallel universe, the same thing is happening, only in reverse on the SGU forum......

Sigh

I have listed the match rates which show DO's matching at a significantly higher rate than US IMG's in virtually every specialty in existence. All of my data was taken directly from the NMRP and the AOA site. I then showed you a graph which shows that DO matching has been increasing while US IMG's are decreasing over the last 4 years. This is NOT anecdotal evidence. Everything I said has been backed by legitimate references. EVERYTHING you have said has been anecdotal evidence. Apparently you go to a non-US school that has match rates far superior to DO (you refuse to take into consideration the AOA match), you did very well, your rotations were amazing, you got all the interviews you wanted, residency of your choice. This is ALL anecdotal. I personally find most of that tale hard to believe, but I'm sure it's possible.

Instead of responding to any of my posts you have tried to mock other posters and claim that we are cherry picking data. I have listed ALL of the data. The only other data I could include would be the actual attrition rates for the Caribbean schools (which surprise surprise are nearly impossible to find) which would hurt your argument even more.

 

[DrFraud]

Sigh I personally find most of that tale hard to believe, but I'm sure it's possible.

Instead of responding to any of my posts you have tried to mock other posters and claim that we are cherry picking data. I have listed ALL of the data. The only other data I could include would be the actual attrition rates for the Caribbean schools (which surprise surprise are nearly impossible to find) which would hurt your argument even more.

Yes I understand your frustration. I feel your pain. I watch as people sypathetic to the DO side of things post aggratee data about off-shore programs even though it is vary possible to find individual off-shore programs like Sackler or Saba to show that students who graduate from these programs do much better than the data that you post suggest, but instead of acknowlaging this in making comparisons you continue to claim over and over again that lumping together the good off shore schools with the lesser quality programs is the only way to fairly compare the DO option vs. going to an off-shore program.

No....nah.....no bias here....you are trying to be as objective as possible <gigantic amounts of sarcasm>

 

[GTP]

Yes I understand your frustration. I feel your pain. I watch as people sypathetic to the DO side of things post aggratee data about off-shore programs even though it is vary possible to find individual off-shore programs like Sackler or Saba to show that students who graduate from these programs do much better than the data that you post suggest, but instead of acknowlaging this in making comparisons you continue to claim over and over again that lumping together the good off shore schools with the lesser quality programs is the only way to fairly compare the DO option vs. going to an off-shore program.

No....nah.....no bias here....you are trying to be as objective as possible <gigantic amounts of sarcasm>

No one is arguing with you that your school may have good match results. However, to be fair, since the D.O match results are all lumped up, the same has to be done for the caribbean schools. However, if all you want us to do is acknowledge that some caribbean schools are better, yes this is true, just like Hopkins is better than Howard. I already alluded to the big four caribbean schools earlier. At the same time, you cannot deny the high attrition rates at these "top" caribbean schools, numbers which are atrocious in comparison to anything you will see even at a low-tier D.O school. If you did well, good for you. But you are not the majority. These top caribbean schools fail out countless unsuspecting students every year.

These high attrition rates, coupled with the fact that D.O schools collectively demonstrate over and over again that they match better than caribbean schools as a whole makes it difficult to comprehend why students even bother to go to the caribbean. O...yeah I almost forgot. OMM is a load of crap.

 

[HockeyDr09]

Yes I understand your frustration. I feel your pain. I watch as people sypathetic to the DO side of things post aggratee data about off-shore programs even though it is vary possible to find individual off-shore programs like Sackler or Saba to show that students who graduate from these programs do much better than the data that you post suggest, but instead of acknowlaging this in making comparisons you continue to claim over and over again that lumping together the good off shore schools with the lesser quality programs is the only way to fairly compare the DO option vs. going to an off-shore program.

No....nah.....no bias here....you are trying to be as objective as possible <gigantic amounts of sarcasm>

My being skeptical of your story had nothing to do with you going to a Caribbean school. It was based solely on how you've presented yourself on here. I would be just as skeptical if you had said you went to Harvard. You have done nothing but mock posters, and have provided no evidence for anything you claim. Even your most recent post tries to spin this into a bias argument. Why don't we talk about facts from now on. Since you have no interest in revealing your school, we cannot look at their data objectively. The only data we see is through your perspective of the school. This debate is Caribbean vs DO match rates. I posted the rates and specialty matches. The DO matches are far superior in both percentage matched and amount of competitive specialties matched. These are the facts. I'm sorry that they disagree with your perspective.