Caribbean School Graduates/Alumni, Any Regrets?

[CuteNurse]

Well said Wolverine7DO

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[stephew]

Agreed, but the reality is that most Carribean grads couldn't even get into a DO school let alone an allopathic school. I know it's convenient for the sake of argument to suggest that all Carribean grads got into DO schools and chose to hit the islands but we know that's b.s. I understand that you have an agenda to protect Carribean grads but now you are getting to the point of pure dishonestly. I know there is a good percentage of students that could have gotten into a DO school but let's not kid ourselves, the majority of IMG's had no choice but to attend a foreign medical school. Plenty of your classmates had sub 3.0 GPA's that couldn't have gotten them into any US medical school: MD or DO. Why do you think so many people fail out of Ross and AUC; it's because they were terrible students to begin with and couldn't hang once admitted. It's not easy for a 2.5 GPA student to suddenly take Human Anatomy and be expected to be proficient.

PD's know this which is why DO's are given preferential treatment over IMG's. This is the rule. Yes, I know some random hospital in New York likes FMG's better but for every hospital that prefers IMG's to DO's, I can give you 10 hospitals that favor DO's over IMG's.

Sorry but you'll have to accept that I disagree with you. And I could accuse you of having the same adgenda and the same intellectual dishonesty. You have laid out many assumptions but your asserting them doenst make them true I'm afraid. The simplistic formula that US allopathic is better than DO is better than IMG is misleading.

Ive sat on residency candidacy numerous times now and I'm quite confident in my views. Put simply, PDs see DOs and IMGs generally as people who failed to get into US allopathic programs. program directors don't favor DOs over IMGs as a rule, and very often its an issue of which DO school versus which IMG school your talking about.

Now you are 100% right to the extent that there are some IMG schools who take anyone who pays and many of these folks wouldnt gain admission into even a DO school or a better IMG school. The produce weaker students who don't do nearly as well and Im sure pale next to DOs from better school. And this is when the particulars of the school matter. (But even then Ive known decent students choose to go to weaker IMG schools for a variety of reasons -cost or other things they were attracted to at the time, whether a good idea or not).

This phenomenon of the school mattering may also explain why you are hearing others relate stories of rotating next to DO students from certain schools and shining so much next to them. Even with your own bias you admit to pockets where IMGs are favored; the schools those IMGs come from may produce suprior students on the whole to DOs in the region. Those PDs become biased in favor of students from those IMG schools.

In the end I encourage the student to look at the outcomes from each school, where they match, and for IMGs you have also the issues of licensing, usmle pass rate and % who make it to the boards (Im suspect being a DO is far easier in this respect)

And for the record, I was accepted over even US allopathic students. Which knocks the whole formula on its head doesnt it? And since you are already accusing me of dishonesty I may as well cut you off at the pass here by asserting upfront that i had no connections, nor did I do anything less than salubrious to get the residency spot.

 

[stephew]

I'm curious why do people even bother arguing who is better than who, this is just like a stupid ego contest...everyone made their decisions already and has to live with what they chose. As for competitive residencies, they are always going to be tough to get into...anyone has a chance to apply...everyone US MD, DO, FMG all get rejected...they'll take who they know more than what your grades were, so if you want a tough residency do a rotation with a hospital that has that specific residency program and do your best to sell yourself and why they should keep you there.

I agree 100% It is an ego thing which is why whenever a student asks in earnest "which is better" i remind them that they should be wary of any poster who is vehement or insistant on the issue.

When I was a kid the big thing was which was better, Duran Duran or Culture Club. We still love our cliques and need to be better!
(BTW: Duran Duran obviously)

 

[stephew]

And the big "three" also have low records of placing their students into competitive spots. Besides, FMG's are notorious for being absolutely clueless during rotations because they get no preclinical training whatsoever. They always have to work far harder than their US counterparts because of this disadvantage.

And the 3.5 humanities major isn't going to get into medical school without a solid MCAT so he must know some science. That excuse is rather weak. It suprises me that the 3.0 grad with "all the science courses" couldn't muster up a decent MCAT. I guess those sciences courses were not all that impressive

Youre right, its harder for IMGs to get more competitive spots. Just like DOs most IMGs tend to primary care. But..

Check the sgu web site. Youll see ER, ortho, etc. The sad thing is sgu underrepresents where their grads go; until this year they were using only student reporting as to where folks were going for internship. Thus most folks who went after year one into speciality weren't represented. For instance I went into radonc; check the 1999 list and you wont see that. There are currently 5 sgu folks in radonc and one won the national prize this year. And a derm resident from sgu one a national prize as well. This year sgu got some info from the NRMP thankfully and even then apparently they've left out a few.

No preclin training? Gosh we did some in my first year and for 6 mons in our second year we go to for hosptial rotations several times a week. Ie. preclinical training.

What's so bad about the notion that some IMG schools are quite good and people do very well for themselves? How does that threaten DOs?

 

[JohnnyOU]

I agree 100% It is an ego thing which is why whenever a student asks in earnest "which is better" i remind them that they should be wary of any poster who is vehement or insistant on the issue.

When I was a kid the big thing was which was better, Duran Duran or Culture Club. We still love our cliques and need to be better!
(BTW: Duran Duran obviously)

Duran Duran... best alt band of the 80's (right there with Depeche Mode, the Smiths, the Cure)

J~

 

[JohnnyOU]

Agreed, but the reality is that most Carribean grads couldn't even get into a DO school let alone an allopathic school. I know it's convenient for the sake of argument to suggest that all Carribean grads got into DO schools and chose to hit the islands but we know that's b.s.

Do you also say that most DO grads couldn't get into U.S. Allopathic schools?

J~

 

[stephew]

Duran Duran... best alt band of the 80's (right there with Depeche Mode, the Smiths, the Cure)

J~

God to this day the smiths still crackle. And billy bragg is another (his softie songs were what I particularly liked).
But i dont know if id call D.D. alternative! Id say they were as mainstream as it gets!

Funny thing about the smiths, cure and D.M.-all became popular in the US after they hit their creative peak; i'm sorry "enjoy the silence" and "personal Jesus" are a mere shadow of DM's best in my view. Hey you want to hear something incredible; check out rufus wainwright.

Ok back to regular programing:
DO!
IMG!
DO!
IMG!!

 

[JohnnyOU]

God to this day the smiths still crackle. And billy bragg is another (his softie songs were what I particularly liked).
But i dont know if id call D.D. alternative! Id say they were as mainstream as it gets!

Funny thing about the smiths, cure and D.M.-all became popular in the US after they hit their creative peak; i'm sorry "enjoy the silence" and "personal Jesus" are a mere shadow of DM's best in my view. Hey you want to hear something incredible; check out rufus wainwright.

I think the older DM stuff was definitely much better than that last stuff they were doing in the 90's. They are however one of the few bands who put out a ton of albums and I would have a hard time finding any of their songs that I didn't like.

I saw the Cure on some show a couple of months ago...they still sound good believe it or not. That guy still looks and sounds exactly the same...must be the mascara and hairspray lol

And if I remember right, I saw Duran Duran playing at the superbowl pregame show or something like that this year... which I would have NEVER EXPECTED. They still sounded ok, but the whole "Wild Boys" thing didn't click for me this time like it used to... I'm just getting old probably

 

[stephew]

I think the older DM stuff was definitely much better than that last stuff they were doing in the 90's. They are however one of the few bands who put out a ton of albums and I would have a hard time finding any of their songs that I didn't like.

I saw the Cure on some show a couple of months ago...they still sound good believe it or not. That guy still looks and sounds exactly the same...must be the mascara and hairspray lol

And if I remember right, I saw Duran Duran playing at the superbowl pregame show or something like that this year... which I would have NEVER EXPECTED. They still sounded ok, but the whole "Wild Boys" thing didn't click for me this time like it used to... I'm just getting old probably

the cure are one tour again. Never thought they were great live but you should see them once. Yeah duran duran never knew what to do after the new romatic phase. They've reformed by the way, the original five. I think two of duran duran were DOs, two were IMGs and one was a holistic healer- but he wasn't one of the "taylors".

 

[ZfoUro]

I can attest to what stephew is saying. Ross does the same thing, puts the prelim year without listing the ultra-competitive residency that the person got into after the prelim year is done. Stupid, really, considering how important those lists are for people trying to decide their future and how much it would help their own reputation.

But then again, I have called to check on grades with the person on the other side of the phone in the Registrar's office not even able to pronounce the name of the rotation I finished (I mean, how hard is it to say the word "nephrology" with it spelled in front of you -- talk about confidence in your school).

And Duran Duran, no question. Remake of White Lines has to hit high on the unintentional Comedy Scale (apologies to Bill Simmons).

 

[stephew]

I can attest to what stephew is saying. Ross does the same thing, puts the prelim year without listing the ultra-competitive residency that the person got into after the prelim year is done. Stupid, really, considering how important those lists are for people trying to decide their future and how much it would help their own reputation.


And Duran Duran, no question. Remake of White Lines has to hit high on the unintentional Comedy Scale (apologies to Bill Simmons).

Thanks for the confirmation and Im glad to know ross does the same thing; both because it makes sgu look slightly less imcompetant in getting the info out, and also because now I can make note to other IMGs that ross may have some more competitive residencies that aren't made obvious.

Tell your school the NRMP will send them a list for a fee-sgu just figured this out this year (i think its for a fee; anyway its definitely from the NRMP)
Oh man, White lines, I know.

 

[meanderson]

With the prelim matches wouldn't it go both ways though? I've been told that there are plenty of sgu/ross general surgery matches that are prelim spots by students who were trying to match categorical.

When considering the total # of competitive matches, I think a lot of people forget the class size. If South Alabama had 2 people match ent and Ross had 2 people match ent, South Alabama actually had 4 or 5 times as many people match ent. It's also pretty tough to look at practicing specialists in some fields and identify them as sgu/ross grads because the competitiveness of certain matches is very cyclical. Just because something is really tough to match now doesn't mean it was tough to match several years ago.

 

[erichaj]

Base on what you just said:

If some specialties are hard to get into in some years and easy in others, there must be a reason for it. that reason is that a specialty may be saturated or getting saturated.

However, those spots still need to be filled, so the residency people lower their expectations based on the number of applicants. If they don't do that they don't get money from the government for their residency program.
So, it's no so much what school you go to, it's more like how bad do they need residents. This is most likely not all true, but there is a good amount of truth to this.

EH.

 

[Orchid 209]

For those of you who went to a Carrib school, can you give me more information on or describe the "hurdles" you had to cross when trying to licensed in different states... specifically the big three states--Cali, NY and Texas. Also, any website with more information would greatly be appreciated. Thanks!

 

[wolfvgang22]

Patient: "What's a D.O.? Doctor of Optometry? There's nothing wrong with my eyes!"

vs.

Patient: "The Car-i-bean? Why did you go THERE?"

Since one of these two will happen, I'd pick D.O. purely for the reason of getting to stay in the U.S., and the having to face less red-tape for licensure.

 

[daelroy]

Patient: "What's a D.O.? Doctor of Optometry? There's nothing wrong with my eyes!"

vs.

Patient: "The Car-i-bean? Why did you go THERE?"

Since one of these two will happen, I'd pick D.O. purely for the reason of getting to stay in the U.S., and the having to face less red-tape for licensure.

Caribbean MD: Hey, I haven't seen you in a while, what field are you in?

DO: I'm in PM&R or Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation. I work about 40 hours a week and pull down 250K per year? What do you do?

Carribean MD: Oh, I wanted to go into PM&R but being an FMG, it was either family practice or internal medicine. I didn't have much options. I make about about 130K and work 50-60 hours a week doing mostly paperwork. I'm pretty burnt out too considering I had to do my residency in the Bronx in New York where the rest of us FMG's went. We didn't much choice where we could do clinicals and residency. Hey, but I still have my MD

DO: You got me there.

 

[daelroy]

Youre right, its harder for IMGs to get more competitive spots. Just like DOs most IMGs tend to primary care. But..

Check the sgu web site. Youll see ER, ortho, etc. The sad thing is sgu underrepresents where their grads go; until this year they were using only student reporting as to where folks were going for internship. Thus most folks who went after year one into speciality weren't represented. For instance I went into radonc; check the 1999 list and you wont see that. There are currently 5 sgu folks in radonc and one won the national prize this year. And a derm resident from sgu one a national prize as well. This year sgu got some info from the NRMP thankfully and even then apparently they've left out a few.

No preclin training? Gosh we did some in my first year and for 6 mons in our second year we go to for hosptial rotations several times a week. Ie. preclinical training.

What's so bad about the notion that some IMG schools are quite good and people do very well for themselves? How does that threaten DOs?

Ross also has similar standout placements; what's your point? My point is that those placements are rare especially considering the number of people graduating from SGU. And regarding PD's impression of DO vs. IMG, you are simply being defensive and stubborn. Maybe, it's because you are located in the northeast but accross the country as a whole, DO's are given preference over IMG's. You can't honestly tell me that IMG's are favored over DO's by PD's in the West, South and particularly the Midwest? That's the 3/4 of the country right there. Give me a break!

Also, your argument is rather convenient. PD's give preference to U.S. Allopathic physicians over DO's and IMG's because they know that both groups couldn't get into an MD school yet they somehow aren't aware that many IMG's couldn't get into a DO school? Do you really think PD's aren't aware of the admissions process of these foreign schools compared to the admissions process at a DO school? PD's know that it is much tougher getting into a DO school than a foreign medical school. This is why U.S. students both MD and DO are favored first and IMG's are favored last on the rung. There are always exceptions of students like yourself but the rule doesn't change. The northeast is different because most IMG's tend to settle there. First, they are usually forced to doing their clinicals there which enables them to meet and work alongside PD's. They have been doing this for a long time so the reputation of IMG's in the northeast isn't as bad it is in other parts of the country. And you happen to be in the northeast which is why you haven't experienced the anti-IMG stigma. Go outside the northeast and you will see exactly what I mean.

And in rural areas of the South and certain states in the Midwest like Ohio and Michigan, many PD's aware that many DO's (probably 1/3 of all DO's) chose to attend an osteopathic school over an allopathic school, and thus really don't give much preference to MD's over DO's especially if the DO student has competitive Step 1 scores. Yes, there are many DO's that chose to attend osteopathic school over allopathic school. And if you don't believe me, check out the campus of a DO school. Many DO students are hippy granolas that are into alternative healing and the idea of alternative medicine. They are smart granolas that had high GPA's and MCATs who elected to go DO. I personally know several of these students so it's not an excuse. So we also have our pockets in the country that don't share any DO bias at all. That is also something you failed to acknowledge.

In regards to securing competitive residencies, you are putting yourself at a statistical disadvantage by attending a foreign medical school versus a DO school.

 

[wolfvgang22]

The "stigma" of being an IMG is probably greater than that of being a US DO.

Somehow I get the feeling you think that is the way it should be?

 

[obadya00]

i thought that was too funny
aren't those the things we fight over post after post
i totally feel you about the placement issues

 

[Termwean]

I would go to the Carib over DO simply because there no DO's practicing in Louisiana( a few scattered) but a lot of img carib grads. Plus, I lived in the Virgin Islands for a years, the carib is a sweet place to live. I would pick it over some Allo school, or DO school in the middle of the country.

Are you seriously saying otherwise; that most FMG grads had normal stats that chose to go the Caribean route? Please, you are in denial. Hey, I will admit that most DO applicants had lower stats but give me a freaking break. The stats of most FMG grads is far lower than most DO's. That is why PD's favor DO's over FMG's is because they know that DO's have at least some admission standards as opposed to the open door policy that exists at Ross and AUC. And while SGU has somewhat normal admission standards, it is far easier getting into SGU than any DO school. It's a hierarchy if you haven't figured that out by now. Yes, while most PD's will favor their U.S. allo grads over DO students, they will also favor DO students over the FMG's for the same damn reason: it's tougher to get into a DO school than an foreign medical school. DUH! This should be common sense to you people. It's laughable how so many of you haven't grasped this simple concept. For crying out loud, Ross and AUC didn't even require the MCAT a few years ago.

I don't have a problem with people going to the Carribean but let's quit the BS and be a little more honest. You guys are going to the Carribean for the MD title. That's it. you aren't going there because you feel you will have a better chance at matching competitive residencies when compared to being a DO. There are always trade offs. Sure, you are getting your MD but you are also taking a hit in securing better residencies. There are always exception of the Ross student or the SGU student who secured something amazing but that's the exception and not the rule. However, DO routinely secure competitive fields; sure not at the same level as allo grads but far higher than their Carribean counterparts. That's just the reality. Anyone who genuinely believes that being an FMG is better than being a DO in regards to securing competitive fields is simply ignorant or being defensive. We all know the truth. Let's move on.

 

[wolfvgang22]

I have to admit in experiencing just a little schadenfreude when I found this statement on the Quackwatch website:

Osteopathic physicians (DOs) are the legal equivalents and, in most cases, are the professional equivalents of medical doctors. Although most DOs offer competent care, the percentage involved in dubious practices appears to be higher than that of medical doctors. For this reason, before deciding whether to use the services of a DO it is useful to understand osteopathy's history and the practical significance of its philosophy.

The article also briefly touches on cranial therapy espoused by many DOs:

http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/QA/osteo.html

 

[daelroy]

I would go to the Carib over DO simply because there no DO's practicing in Louisiana( a few scattered) but a lot of img carib grads. Plus, I lived in the Virgin Islands for a years, the carib is a sweet place to live. I would pick it over some Allo school, or DO school in the middle of the country.

There are no DO's practicing in Louisiana? That's funny, check out this link http://www.loma-net.org/physicianreferral/findado.htm

There are a ton of DO's practicing in New Orleans and Baton Rouge. I take it New Orleans and Baton Rouge are in Louisiana correct? Enter the zip code of the section of the city you are interested and you are bound to find at least one DO. Gotta love the "There are no DO's in my area" excuse. And like always, it never proves to be true.

Grenada isn't the U.S. Virgin Islands and it's anything but "sweet" Again, do not equate the Caribbean with Fantasy Island, Ibiza or any other luxury vacation resort. They are third world nations. The only exception to this is AUC on St. Maarten. It's actually a pretty nice island with casinos, bars, clubs etc. It still has it's fair share of island problems like travel costs to the U.S. and the standard power outages but AUC isn't exactly St. George now is it?


NEXT

 

[daelroy]

I have to admit in experiencing just a little schadenfreude when I found this statement on the Quackwatch website:



The article also briefly touches on cranial therapy espoused by many DOs:

http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/QA/osteo.html

You are mistaken if you think all DO's love OMM. Most of us just wanted to be physicians and will never practice OMM. Others of us will. We all have our own opinions. Many DO's think OMM is quackery too and never practice it.

If Carribean schools like St. George enabled its students to have the same access to residencies like DO students then why doesn't most DO students simply apply to St. George and some of the best schools overseas? Since we have already accepted the idea that most DO students were MD rejects that aspired to go to an MD school first, why wouldn't we all apply to St. George if their school is so reputable in the United States? Think about that for a minute. DO's are not unaware that the MD label can make your situation easier at times particularly during clinical rotations, so why wouldn't they just go to St. George? We have accepted that most(3/4 or 2/3) of all DO's would prefer to have attended a US allopathic school if given the chance. Do you really think that those 75% or 66% of all students who chose DO school are dumb and haven't done their research on schools like St. George? Please!

The only advantage to attending a school like St. George over a DO school is for the MD label and that's it. There are some amazing St. George students that break the mold but those students are rare. Statistically speaking, you have better odds of specializing as a DO than as an IMG. DO's students know this which is why they would rather be a DO and specialize or do primary care at competitive hospitals than be an IMG and have much more limited opportunities. To DO students, it's not worth sacraficing opportunities and living conditions for an MD label. So if you want the MD label, then by all means go to the Carribbean. If you want to stand a better chance of specializing and acquiring competitive residencies, go to a DO school. That's the bottomline. Yes, you can take your chances at St. George and get lucky and match into an amazing specialty but its rare that St. George students do that. For every ENT or Radonc they match, look at where the rest of 90% match at those schools. Everyone remembers the rare superstar but forgets where the majority of their students match. And yes, we all think we will be that unique standout person but reality speaks otherwise. So what will happen if you go to St. George and you end up doing your clinical rotations in some dumpy part of Queens, New York only to end doing family practice in the middle of nowhere. That's a closer reality than the student getting radiation oncology at St. George.

 

[Rdhdstpkd]

For those of you who went to a Carrib school, can you give me more information on or describe the "hurdles" you had to cross when trying to licensed in different states... specifically the big three states--Cali, NY and Texas. Also, any website with more information would greatly be appreciated. Thanks!

Hi Orchid,

Try www.valuemd.com . The site has plenty of info that you might find helpful.

 

[Robz]

not one to step into the middle of a great pissing match cause people will have hard core opinions no matter what....

BUT..

wasn't the point of this thread to see if any graduates had regrets? I think the first few posts were a pretty obvious no. I'm still interested in hearing about the process of going from a caribbean school to a residency.

 

[Orchid 209]

not one to step into the middle of a great pissing match cause people will have hard core opinions no matter what....

BUT..

wasn't the point of this thread to see if any graduates had regrets? I think the first few posts were a pretty obvious no. I'm still interested in hearing about the process of going from a caribbean school to a residency.

Exactly what I mean! After just reading the posts from the people who are so anti IMG, it just helped me make a conclusion that they have nothing better to do than go rant about how horrible it is to go abroad vs. going to a DO school.

Do you realize you've offended some of the people who WANT do family medicine or some subspecialty in Internal Med? And there are those people who are COMMITTED to working with the underserved/rural communities? Are you trying to say most of the general practritioners (even ones who came from US allopathic schools) are imcompetent and couldn't get into other specialties?

I figured all the negative remarks/comments you are making are due to your anger caused by people who went to allopathic schools and are making your life hell because they have shown little respect for DOs, as you are doing to IMGs.

In the end, as long as a US licensed physician is genuinely concerned about my well-being and are competent enought to provide me with care, and has not had a few malpractice suits, I could care less where they got their degree from...... whether it is the US, some country I've never heard of or someone with a DO degree.

I'm sure there are many others who would agree with me on that, considering there are a shortage of physicians in most areas of the country....

So please post somewhere else as this thread is titled " Caribbean School Graduates/Alumni, Any Regrets? " and obviously should have no relevance to you, since 1) you are not a Alumni of a Carib school and 2) you are not interested in attending a Carib school.

 

[daelroy]

Exactly what I mean! After just reading the posts from the people who are so anti IMG, it just helped me make a conclusion that they have nothing better to do than go rant about how horrible it is to go abroad vs. going to a DO school.

Do you realize you've offended some of the people who WANT do family medicine or some subspecialty in Internal Med? And there are those people who are COMMITTED to working with the underserved/rural communities? Are you trying to say most of the general practritioners (even ones who came from US allopathic schools) are imcompetent and couldn't get into other specialties?

I figured all the negative remarks/comments you are making are due to your anger caused by people who went to allopathic schools and are making your life hell because they have shown little respect for DOs, as you are doing to IMGs.

In the end, as long as a US licensed physician is genuinely concerned about my well-being and are competent enought to provide me with care, and has not had a few malpractice suits, I could care less where they got their degree from...... whether it is the US, some country I've never heard of or someone with a DO degree.

I'm sure there are many others who would agree with me on that, considering there are a shortage of physicians in most areas of the country....

So please post somewhere else as this thread is titled " Caribbean School Graduates/Alumni, Any Regrets? " and obviously should have no relevance to you, since 1) you are not a Alumni of a Carib school and 2) you are not interested in attending a Carib school.

I never said practicing family practice in a rural area is bad. I just said that's not something I would want to do. I just don't want to be statistically limited to a particular field or certain area of the country as an IMG. I have admitted in the past that if one has the desire to practice in a primary care field in a rural area of the country while still acquiring an MD, then the Carribean is most appropriate route. Don't misread that as me stating that IMG's are permanently banned from the most competitive fields in medicine as they most certainly are not. However, the odds favor a DO as opposed to an IMG in securing competitive fields and hospitals in addition to having a say in regards to the location of where one wants to do clinicals and residency. That is a fact. Compare the match lists of all DO schools versus the match lists of all Carrbbean graduates including SGU graduates and there is a higher percentage of DO's that specialize and do primary care specialties at competitive hospitals.

The issue I have is one someone suggests that IMG's and DO's have equal access to competitive hospitals and residency because they both are seen as "not being good enough to get into a US MD school." If you post something like that then rest assured many DO's and osteopathic students will correct that inaccurate statement. I have a right to post on this thread when people start posting fallacies in regards to osteopathic education and being a DO. This is the student doctor network so we have the privilege of posting anywhere on this forum; we aren't limited to the osteopathic forum only.

I have friend that are graduating from offshore schools and I don't have a problem with that. I know that many students attend offshore schools for the MD and that's their right. However, it becomes an issue when one inaccurately claims that by attending SGU or another Carribean school, he or she will have equal access to the most competitive hospitals and residency as a DO. That is not true because DO's have an edge in this area despite the fact that some standout Carribbean grads do quite nicely for themselves. The statistics favor DO's. Is that so hard to admit? That in no way puts down SGU or other Carribbean schools. All it says is that as an SGU student, you will have a tougher time than attending many DO schools if you want to specialize; the odds will not be in your favor but it in no ways says you can't specialize coming out of SGU. I looked at SGU's matchlist and it is impressive. But something I noticed about SGU's matchlist was that they had far more students as well and the competition for the top positions must be brutal. It seemed like were CLOSE TO 300 STUDENTS for their 2003 match list. Talk about competition!

 

[wolfvgang22]

This thread is going in circles. Everybody here has had their say at least twice.

You'll find the answer to the original question easier by asking at http://www.valuemd.com and by doing a search there. Since that's specifically an IMG forum, there are a lot more IMGs there that can give an answer.

 

[Leukocyte]

Guys, If your are comparing the Match list at Ross with a D.O. school, please do not. The Ross list is NOT COMPLETE. My friend pre-match Urology at Mt. Sinai and it is not on the list.

And if you are comparing match statistics between D.O applicants and IMG'S, again don't. The match percentage of IMGs in general does not speak for Carribean applicants (Ross, SGU) specificly. PDs do not see Ross/SGU graduates (who did all their clinicals, MS-3 and MS-4, years with residents and US allopathic medical students at ACGME accredited teaching hospitals) like the rest of the "true" FMGs.

 

[daelroy]

Guys, If your are comparing the Match list at Ross with a D.O. school, please do not. The Ross list is NOT COMPLETE. My friend pre-match for Urology at Mt. Sinai ant it is not on the list.

And if you are comparing match statistics between D.O applicants and IMG'S, again don't. The match percentage of IMGs in general does not speak for Carribean applicants (Ross, SGU) specificly. PDs do not see Ross/SGU graduates (who did clinicals with residents at ACGME accredited teaching hospitals) like the rest "true" FMGs.

Compare the match list of SGU (the best Carribean school) with the match list of a DO school. SGU has some impressive placements which I will candidly admit. The problem occurs when you count the total number of students that are involved in the match at SGU for a given year. SGU had close to ~350 students for their 2003 match. DO schools vary with the number of students per each class but many don't exceed a 130 usually. I would much rather compete with a 130 students than 350 students in a given year. With that many students, it shouldn't be a suprise to anyone that SGU managed to have some students that attained some competitive fields. Yes, out of 350 graduates, SGU had ONE orthopedic surgeon. They had ZERO neurosurgeons listed. Out of 350 grads, they had ONE opthalmologist. Out of 350 grads, they had TWO PM&R physiatry. They had ZERO radiologists. They had ZERO radiation oncologists. They had ZERO dermatologists (one was incorrectly listed for Harvard). They had a whopping FIVE anesthesiologists out of 350 grads. Close to 120 graduates were going into internal medicine. Close to 45 students were entering Family Practice. I haven't even counted those entering Pediatrics which exceed those entering family practice.

The vast majority of those ~300 students were involved in primary care fields. Another interesting statistic was that an overwhelming number of students from the SGU 2003 class were on the East Coast. There were hardly any students in California, Texas and the like.

Finally, Ross and SGU students aren't the only ones who do clinicals in the U.S. . AUC, SABA and students from European schools also do clinicals in the U.S.

 

[Leukocyte]

Now, now....Who said SGU was the best carribean school. Was it officially published, officially polled, officially ranked..................

(Please note sarcasm)

 

[daelroy]

Now, now....Who said SGU was the best carribean school. Was it officially published, officially polled, officially ranked..................

(Please note sarcasm)

Man, let's not even go there. Ross didn't start accepting the MCAT....the freakin MCAT!... as an admissions tool until a year ago. In the past, they only required that students take the MCAT but their scores wouldn't be used as an admissions tool. And they only started that policy a few years ago. For the longest time, Ross didn't even accept the MCAT. :LOL: I think we can safely say that SGU is the best foreign medical school because unlike Ross, they at least had some entrance standards.

Ross is essentially a diploma mill because they accept anyone which is why so many of their students fail out of the school too. They accept students who shouldn't be admitted to medical school. I heard that approximately 20% of all Ross students who are admitted fail out of their school

 

[Rdhdstpkd]

Compare the match list of SGU (the best Carribean school) with the match list of a DO school. SGU has some impressive placements which I will candidly admit. The problem occurs when you count the total number of students that are involved in the match at SGU for a given year. SGU had close to ~350 students for their 2003 match. DO schools vary with the number of students per each class but many don't exceed a 130 usually. I would much rather compete with a 130 students than 350 students in a given year. With that many students, it shouldn't be a suprise to anyone that SGU managed to have some students that attained some competitive fields. Yes, out of 350 graduates, SGU had ONE orthopedic surgeon. They had ZERO neurosurgeons listed. Out of 350 grads, they had ONE opthalmologist. Out of 350 grads, they had TWO PM&R physiatry. They had ZERO radiologists. They had ZERO radiation oncologists. They had ZERO dermatologists (one was incorrectly listed for Harvard). They had a whopping FIVE anesthesiologists out of 350 grads. Close to 120 graduates were going into internal medicine. Close to 45 students were entering Family Practice. I haven't even counted those entering Pediatrics which exceed those entering family practice.

The vast majority of those ~300 students were involved in primary care fields. Another interesting statistic was that an overwhelming number of students from the SGU 2003 class were on the East Coast. There were hardly any students in California, Texas and the like.

Finally, Ross and SGU students aren't the only ones who do clinicals in the U.S. . AUC, SABA and students from European schools also do clinicals in the U.S.

do you read the responses people post? it's been pointed out several times that the sgu match list is incomplete. as IMGs we can pre-match and avoid the process all together and many of those spots are not represented on the list. furthermore, as steph reported on pages 2 and 3 she just finished her rad-onc residency, but only her prelim year was listed on the match list. So you see, a lot of those IM matches are just prelim years. And, while we're on the topic, why do you think the harvard derm listing was a mistake? That person just finished her intern year and was apparently present at the SGU open house in NYC not too long ago. Not that it matters, you'll still continue to badger all of us about our choice to become IMGs. A choice so dismal that absolutely no one has claimed to regret their choice- now that doesn't make any sense, does it?

 

[daelroy]

do you read the responses people post? it's been pointed out several times that the sgu match list is incomplete. as IMGs we can pre-match and avoid the process all together and many of those spots are not represented on the list. furthermore, as steph reported on pages 2 and 3 she just finished her rad-onc residency, but only her prelim year was listed on the match list. So you see, a lot of those IM matches are just prelim years. And, while we're on the topic, why do you think the harvard derm listing was a mistake? That person just finished her intern year and was apparently present at the SGU open house in NYC not too long ago. Not that it matters, you'll still continue to badger all of us about our choice to become IMGs. A choice so dismal that absolutely no one has claimed to regret their choice- now that doesn't make any sense, does it?

Oh, I read it but guess what SGU isn't the only school whose match lists may be incomplete because of the pre-lim year posting. I'm certain the match list would look drastically "different" if that information was suddenly posted. There are many DO schools that fail to provide that information as well. It sounds like an excuse to me and a rather convenient one at that. In regards to the Harvard derm position, I read the thread regarding that position. Scroll down and you will see it. You still haven't addressed the fact that you had close to 350 students in the match and nearly 1/3 of those students went into internal medicine which didn't include the large numbers of family practice and pediactrics residents. What about the large percentage of students on the east coast: so much for geographic flexibility...oh but I'm sure they all wanted to remain there. Apparently you didn't read my post too well. Go ahead and take another look at it....more carefully this time.

I'm not attacking IMG's. I'm only attacking fallacious statements suggesting that IMG's have an equal opportunity to acquire competitive residencies as DO's. It's simply not true. I support those who feel the need to go offshore for the MD degree. Everyone has his or her own reasons. Just don't post wrong information about DO's and I won't be here.

 

[Phil Anthropist]

Man, let's not even go there. Ross didn't start accepting the MCAT....the freakin MCAT!... as an admissions tool until a year ago. In the past, they only required that students take the MCAT but their scores wouldn't be used as an admissions tool. And they only started that policy a few years ago. For the longest time, Ross didn't even accept the MCAT. :LOL: I think we can safely say that SGU is the best foreign medical school because unlike Ross, they at least had some entrance standards.

Ross is essentially a diploma mill because they accept anyone which is why so many of their students fail out of the school too. They accept students who shouldn't be admitted to medical school. I heard that approximately 20% of all Ross students who are admitted fail out of their school

Okay, I couldn't help it, this was just too ironic to not point out. Umm...you do know that you're responding to Leukocyte, who if I remember correctly goes to Ross!

PS This is not a knock on Ross, just an observation of irony

 

[daelroy]

Okay, I couldn't help it, this was just too ironic to not point out. Umm...you do know that you're responding to Leukocyte, who if I remember correctly goes to Ross!

PS This is not a knock on Ross, just an observation of irony

Yes

 

[daelroy]

My apologies to this forum. I have said enough and I don't want to get into personal attacks. If any of you have questions about pursuing the DO vs. IMG route, PM me or ask others on the Osteopathic forum for their opinion. Good Luck to all.

 

[Phil Anthropist]

Daelroy, I seem to come by your posts a lot and you often offer some very insightful info...but some of your comments kinda concern me...

You are mistaken if you think all DO's love OMM. Most of us just wanted to be physicians and will never practice OMM. Others of us will. We all have our own opinions. Many DO's think OMM is quackery too and never practice it.

I think it's sad that people will go into osteopathic school without regard for the history and philosophy of osteopathic medicine. I think it takes away from osteopathic medicine when "most of [you] just wanted to be physicians." And to think that some DOs even think that OMM (which is one of the main reasons that makes osteopathic medicine unique and different from allopathic medicine) is "quackery" and have no intent to "practice it" kind of disturbs me.

Statistically speaking, you have better odds of specializing as a DO than as an IMG. DO's students know this which is why they would rather be a DO and specialize or do primary care at competitive hospitals than be an IMG and have much more limited opportunities. If you want to stand a better chance of specializing and acquiring competitive residencies, go to a DO school. That's the bottomline.

You know what, even though my brother is going to SGU and I'm sure I may rattle some of the SDNers who are currently at foreign medical schools, your belief that DO graduates have an advantage in the match over US-IMGs is probably almost 100% true. I've looked at some of the DO matchlists and some of them are incredible. But that still bothers me...

So what will happen if you go to St. George and you end up doing your clinical rotations in some dumpy part of Queens, New York only to end doing family practice in the middle of nowhere.

I just went to the aacom.org website and looked at every single osteopathic medical school. On either the AACOM, the osteopathic school's own website, or links off of the osteopathic school websites, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM mentioned a commitment to one or more of the following:

(1) primary care- first and foremost
(2) rural medicine
(3) the underserved

And so I can't help but wonder...isn't "family practice in the middle of nowhere" often consistent with the principles of osteopathy save for the OMM?

As I've stated before, my brother decided to go to SGU and I totally respect that. I am premed and I will probably apply for US allopathic, US osteopathic, and SGU in 2005 (2006 if I decide to take a glide year to teach at my former high school, do research, or get a MA or MS in bioethics/clinical ethics). As you can see, I am interested in osteopathic medical schools and may attend one in the future. One of the reasons I really respect osteopathy is the philosophy that so many people dismiss as rubbish. I think that people who want to go into medicine not for the money, but for the opportunity to practice primary care and help the most destitute are some of the most respectable doctors out there. They are the people who really understand what medicine is all about. So even if one of these people (osteopathic, allopathic, or FMG-allopathic) is making "130K and work(ing) 50-60 hours" as opposed to some guy that goes into PM&R that is making 200K+ and working less hours, what's your point? As far as I'm concerned people who go into medicine willing to work harder and earn less because they have the genuine intent to help those in need rather than because they wanted prestige, money, or lifestyle, are precisely the types of people who should go into medicine.

 

[Phil Anthropist]

My apologies to this forum. I have said enough and I don't want to get into personal attacks. If any of you have questions about pursuing the DO vs. IMG route, PM me or ask others on the Osteopathic forum for their opinion. Good Luck to all.

I'm sure most of us are thankful for your contributions and know that your purpose isn't to make personal attacks. Again, thanks for the info and I'm sure it'll be very helpful for those deciding to go DO or FMG.

 

[Orchid 209]

To Phil Anthropist

 

[goolesss]

daelroy,

So, There are no DO's practicing in Louisiana? That's funny, check out this link http://www.loma-net.org/physicianreferral/findado.htm huh?

Wrong!!!! You are full of C***p!!! Try my zip code?96826
It is ashamed how your D.O ego gets to your head and try to down play off shore students!!! And before you start talking smack, I graduated with a 3.8 gpa and score a 33 in the mcat?.In case you are just wondering I did not wanted to wait a year in half to apply to a school in the states?.I am currently living my dream..
Please do your homework before you post anything in this forum?..for now, you are just a liar.

 

[Adapt]

Daelroy, your contribution is very much helpful and some of what you said has taught me more about the issue. I chose DO school over 2 US MD schools but I know that there are people who choose caribbean over DO with no question. In fact, I would even argue that DOs can specialize just as easily as US MDs but that is an argument for another time.

I'd also like to comment that I've visited the ValueMD forum and it is super-pro caribbean and often times they speak negatively about DOs. I guess it's all about the propaganda you hear. I am glad SDN is very pro DO especially since the founder of SDN is a DO FP from COMP.

 

[Adapt]

daelroy,

So, There are no DO's practicing in Louisiana? That's funny, check out this link http://www.loma-net.org/physicianreferral/findado.htm huh?

Wrong!!!! You are full of C***p!!! Try my zip code?96826
It is ashamed how your D.O ego gets to your head and try to down play off shore students!!! And before you start talking smack, I graduated with a 3.8 gpa and score a 33 in the mcat?.In case you are just wondering I did not wanted to wait a year in half to apply to a school in the states?.I am currently living my dream..
Please do your homework before you post anything in this forum?..for now, you are just a liar.

Well, if you go here...

http://directory.aoa-net.org/cfm/PublicSearch.cfm

...and put LA, you get 48 DOs.

 

[daelroy]

daelroy,

So, There are no DO's practicing in Louisiana? That's funny, check out this link http://www.loma-net.org/physicianreferral/findado.htm huh?

Wrong!!!! You are full of C***p!!! Try my zip code?96826
It is ashamed how your D.O ego gets to your head and try to down play off shore students!!! And before you start talking smack, I graduated with a 3.8 gpa and score a 33 in the mcat?.In case you are just wondering I did not wanted to wait a year in half to apply to a school in the states?.I am currently living my dream..
Please do your homework before you post anything in this forum?..for now, you are just a liar.

Ever heard of putting your foot in your mouth. Well you just did that. The zip code you gave me is for Honolulu, Hawaii. That search bank was for the state of Louisiana. Uh oh...someone just got exposed. Hawaii and Louisiana are in two different states. Try reading the entire URL before you think you have a case. There is a reason why Honolulu's zip code won't yield results on a LOUISIANA website. You just embarassed yourself big time!

Here are two physicians practicing in New Orleans, type in this zip code 70112. That's a 107 DO's in just this zip code Yeah, I'm a liar. What was I thinking? One of these physicians happens to practice on Canal street which is the most prominent street in New Orleans. Keep in mind that there are hundreds of zip codes so if a DO doesn't live in your particular zip code it doesn't mean they aren't in Louisiana.

http://www.loma-net.org/physicianreferral/physicians.asp

How is that foot tasting? I

 

[daelroy]

I think it's sad that people will go into osteopathic school without regard for the history and philosophy of osteopathic medicine. I think it takes away from osteopathic medicine when "most of [you] just wanted to be physicians." And to think that some DOs even think that OMM (which is one of the main reasons that makes osteopathic medicine unique and different from allopathic medicine) is "quackery" and have no intent to "practice it" kind of disturbs me.

Osteopathic medicine just doesn't concern OMM. It also includes a focus on preventatitve medicine and care. And contrary to popular believe 95% of osteopathic medicine includes the same principles that are taught in allopathic medicne.

I just went to the aacom.org website and looked at every single osteopathic medical school. On either the AACOM, the osteopathic school's own website, or links off of the osteopathic school websites, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM mentioned a commitment to one or more of the following:

(1) primary care- first and foremost
(2) rural medicine
(3) the underserved

And so I can't help but wonder...isn't "family practice in the middle of nowhere" often consistent with the principles of osteopathy save for the OMM?

Yes, you have a point. And most of us are hypocrites because we aren't exactly down with osteopathic beliefs and medicine. Many of us just wanted to be physicians. I got into my state MD school but I like DO school much better. And for the field I'm considering PM&R, being an osteopath actually has it's advantages so I won't have any trouble matching into PM&R should I become a competitive candidate.

As I've stated before, my brother decided to go to SGU and I totally respect that. I am premed and I will probably apply for US allopathic, US osteopathic, and SGU in 2005 (2006 if I decide to take a glide year to teach at my former high school, do research, or get a MA or MS in bioethics/clinical ethics). As you can see, I am interested in osteopathic medical schools and may attend one in the future. One of the reasons I really respect osteopathy is the philosophy that so many people dismiss as rubbish. I think that people who want to go into medicine not for the money, but for the opportunity to practice primary care and help the most destitute are some of the most respectable doctors out there. They are the people who really understand what medicine is all about. So even if one of these people (osteopathic, allopathic, or FMG-allopathic) is making "130K and work(ing) 50-60 hours" as opposed to some guy that goes into PM&R that is making 200K+ and working less hours, what's your point? As far as I'm concerned people who go into medicine willing to work harder and earn less because they have the genuine intent to help those in need rather than because they wanted prestige, money, or lifestyle, are precisely the types of people who should go into medicine.

You won't be alone. There are many people in osteopathic schools that very pro-DO, very pro osteopathic philosophy. And the people that aren't into OMM and osteopathic philosophy don't have a problem with those who espouse it.

But I'm a practical person. I have no problem admitting that 2/3's of all DO's settled on osteopathic school and that most could care less about OMM. Most DO's wanted to be physicians and would rather deal with a DO title than have an MD title and be at a statistical disadvantage when trying to match into competitive fields.

 

[goolesss]

Daelroy:
"Enter the zip code of the section of the city you are interested and you are bound to find at least one DO. Gotta love the "There are no DO's in my area" excuse. And like always, it never proves to be true."

Well, there are no DO's in my area, however, there are DO'S in my state.....not my area!

 

[daelroy]

Daelroy:
"Enter the zip code of the section of the city you are interested and you are bound to find at least one DO. Gotta love the "There are no DO's in my area" excuse. And like always, it never proves to be true."

Well, there are no DO's in my area, however, there are DO'S in my state.....not my area!

That was a Louisina search site. We were talking about Louisiana since you claimed there were "only a few DO's scattered in the state." I would say that 107 DO's in one zip code of New Orleans is more than a "few scattered in the state." The city I was referring to was NEW ORLEANS not Honolulu, Hawaii. What do you think "section of the city" was referring to? It didn't say "section of the country." Honolulu is not a section of New Orleans. Did you just pull that zip code out of your a$$ thinking there would be no DO's in remote Honolulu? nice try

Thanks for Playing! Also keep in mind, there are only 20 DO schools in the country and 13,000 practicing DO's compared to nearly 750,000 MD's in the U.S. Can you comprehend math? Also, look below! This is the SECOND time I have spanked you. Do you want a third spanking; you seem to like them? You are too easy. I suggest actually reading the URL otherwise you would have realized that search engine was for the state of Louisiana and not the entire United States. You are too easy.

Name City State/Province ZIP Primary specialty
Denise C. Kellaher, DO Honolulu
HI

96826 - I believe this is the zip code you were referring to.

http://directory.aoa-net.org/cfm/PublicDisplay.cfm

Psychiatry

 

[stephew]

Yes, out of 350 graduates, SGU had ONE orthopedic surgeon. They had ZERO neurosurgeons listed. Out of 350 grads, they had ONE opthalmologist. Out of 350 grads, they had TWO PM&R physiatry. They had ZERO radiologists. They had ZERO radiation oncologists. They had ZERO dermatologists (one was incorrectly listed for Harvard). They had a whopping FIVE anesthesiologists out of 350 grads.

wrong. we have 5 radonc docs in residency including me (and you KNOW Im both an sgu grad and in radonc), two derms, two neurosurgeons in the last five years I know of. qnumber of orthopods but i cant tell you the number. many many anesthesiologist which is no biggie since its been easy to get. also a number of radiologists as I know five but again I can't give hard numbders.

BTW the national research winner at the radonc national association is...an sgu grad. A major derm award this year? Sgu grad.

Im afraid you want to hard to make a point you use stats either ignorantly or willfully misleading; i dont know which.

but to clear it up, why is the list ont he web site underrepresenting where sgu grads go?
until this year sgu couldnt get the match list except by getting the info at graduation. thus several things happened:
1) not everyone's info was collected and
2) they asked only for the intern year- so people in radonc, etc (ie specialities) often didnt mention where they were going for pgy-2.

I try very hard not to make comments and give stats about things I know little about just to prove my point. I would kindly ask others to return the favor.

 

[stephew]

prospectives should read this http://www.sgu.edu/nhome.nsf/webcontent/2CDA044ECC718CCD85256E6A0078E556?OpenDocument and check out the information for themselves rather than take the word of a net user.