caribean medical school

[Sdeng1128]

so i decided to apply to caribean medical schools and then I read this post that says IMGs have to score higher on steps to compete for the same spots as us grads, to what extent is this true? like is it 10 points of difference to make up for the fact that you are an IMG?

thank you

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[Microbug]

How many US cycles have you gone though?

 

[Sdeng1128]

wow so what u are saying gonnif is that the first time match rate for even the best Caribbean school such as SGU is only about 60%ish? when I called them and asked them the same question they said it was like 93%. my gpa is too low for us schools, its at a 3.0 flat.

 

[deleted480308]

wow so what u are saying gonnif is that the first time match rate for even the best Caribbean school such as SGU is only about 60%ish? when I called them and asked them the same question they said it was like 93%. my gpa is too low for us schools, its at a 3.0 flat.

A ton a carrib students never even make it to steP1.....what’s your mcat and how many years have you been applying to med school?

 

[Sdeng1128]

A ton a carrib students never even make it to steP1.....what’s your mcat and how many years have you been applying to med school?

I am sorry I don't want to talk about my self cuze I suck.

for those students in the caribean medical school after they make it to step 1 and finished med school through, is it like only 60% of them match?

 

[deleted480308]

I am sorry I don't want to talk about my self cuze I suck.

for those students in the caribean medical school after they make it to step 1 and finished med school through, is it like only 60% of them match?

The advice depends greatly on the answers to the questions you were asked.....if you do not want to answer, I’ll just wish you well

 

[deleted888443]

wow so what u are saying gonnif is that the first time match rate for even the best Caribbean school such as SGU is only about 60%ish? when I called them and asked them the same question they said it was like 93%. my gpa is too low for us schools, its at a 3.0 flat.

The other 40% either dropped out or didnt match. Also, 93% is probably not the match rate, but the residency placement rate (including off cycle matches, SOAP, etc).

 

[Sdeng1128]

The other 40% either dropped out or didnt match. Also, 93% is probably not the match rate, but the residency placement rate (including off cycle matches, SOAP, etc).

whats the difference between match rate and residency placement rate?

 

[Domperidone]

I am sorry I don't want to talk about my self cuze I suck.

for those students in the caribean medical school after they make it to step 1 and finished med school through, is it like only 60% of them match?

It's anonymous anyway. What have you got to lose?
Some dignity now..
versus, a couple hundred grand and some self-respect later..

 

[Sdeng1128]

okay so ill talk about my self.

3.0 gpa, not yet taken mcat, some research and clinical experience.

I did a little bit of math and realized if I have to sit thro couple unsuccessful cycles of applying to us schools, by the time I become a doctor and actually making doctor level salary, it rly wouldn't be worth it financially. so I decided to go caribean.

 

[PossibleDOC?]

okay so ill talk about my self.

3.0 gpa, not yet taken mcat, some research and clinical experience.

I did a little bit of math and realized if I have to sit thro couple unsuccessful cycles of applying to us schools, by the time I become a doctor and actually making doctor level salary, it rly wouldn't be worth it financially. so I decided to go caribean.

The 3.0 is a little low, if you get it to a 3.2/3.3 and have a good MCAT you could see a DO acceptance in a year or two.....you can become a doctor from the carib but its tough. You have to survive the first two years on the island. I say survive because the attrition rate is quite high and the ones that make it that go into rotations. Simply math will show you that if they take in lets say 500 students and then 200 drop out, then 300 go into rotations thats why you meet so many student doctors in NJ and NY from those schools. However, getting into residency is tough as an IMG. Regardless of what all of the IMG grads say it is truly more difficult to get into a residency as a carib grad as opposed to a DO. After you factor in the attrition, remediating classes, and failure of boards its true 93% do match but its 93% of the people who APPLIED! like ones who applied for the second time, ones who applied and SOAP'd in, ones who got lucky the first time. There are so many factors that go into it and these schools have no reason to show all of their data because they're privately held businesses and not publicly traded.

Honestly if becoming a doctor is important to you but you can't wait a year or two and take the MCAT as well then you need to reevaluate and move forward

GL

 

[deleted480308]

If you seriously can’t manage more than a 3.0 in undergrad and your mcat isn’t good enough to drag you into a US school, I don’t belive that you have a high predictability of getting through a carrib school.

You stand high odds of just donating years worth of tuition to them without anything to show for it

 

[GypsyHummus]

Look into podiatry, although I wouldn't recommend it to people with less than a 3.0 in undergrad unless they had a significant up trend. It is essentially the first two years of medical school followed by surgical residency. The DPM degree will give you a better chance of practicing medicine in the states than an MD degree from the Caribbean.

 

[deleted888443]

whats the difference between match rate and residency placement rate?

Match rate is what percentage of students got a residency spot through entering the match.
Placement rate is just how many students got a residency spot, period. There are ways to get a residency without matching. Students at Caribbean schools have historically been able to pre match into residencies (though it doesn't happen that often anymore), get a residency slot off cycle, SOAP into a residency after not successfully matching, and so on. So while a match rate can be like 65%, a placement rate could be 85-90%.

And yes, Caribbean schools have high washout rates. SGU and Ross are historically the best 2, and I personally know people who have matched from there. I also know someone else who started in 2012 and still hasn't snagged a residency. As Skip Intro always says... Caveat Emptor.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

I've actually seen people make it to DO schools with 3.0 GPAs or even lower. Check the Accepted DO applicant stats thread if you don't believe me. Since you haven't taken the MCAT yet, I'd say focus on doing well (505+) on the MCAT, get some more clinical ECs, and apply very broadly this coming cycle. I, myself got accepted in 2 DO schools this cycle with a 499 MCAT but my GPAs are 3.7+. I thought I wasn't gonna get in any U.S. medical school to be honest because I actually took the MCAT 5 times over the course of 2 years (2015-2017) and scored 18, 487, 492, 500(unbalanced), 499(well-balanced 124+/section). Taking into account that English is my second language and that I've only lived in the U.S. for 6 years, CARS was my nemesis. Anyway, I applied to 7 MD schools, 27 DO schools, and SGU as a last resort. To my greatest surprise, I received a lot of love for a first time applicant that struggled so much in the MCAT. In total I got 12 interview invites (1 in-state MD, 10 DOs, and SGU). Of course, I was accepted at SGU real quick, but what mattered the most was that I got accepted to ARCOM and ATSU-KCOM. I couldn't have been happier and grateful that I got such great opportunities. All that to tell you that MD>DO>>>>Caribbean MD. Keep persevering and keep pushing forward, you will make it. Only choose Carribean after multiple unsuccessful cycles (at least 3) in the U.S., and if you have to go Caribbean go SGU. The other Caribbean schools are worst in terms of residency match.

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[DrStephenStrange]

I've actually seen people make it to DO schools with 3.0 GPAs or even lower. Check the Accepted DO applicant stats thread if you don't believe me. Since you haven't taken the MCAT yet, I'd say focus on doing well (505+) on the MCAT, get some more clinical ECs, and apply very broadly this coming cycle. I, myself got accepted in 2 DO schools this cycle with a 499 MCAT but my GPAs are 3.7+. I thought I wasn't gonna get in any U.S. medical school to be honest because I actually took the MCAT 5 times over the course of 2 years (2015-2017) and scored 18, 487, 492, 500(unbalanced), 499(well-balanced 124+/section). Taking into account that English is my second language and that I've only lived in the U.S. for 6 years, CARS was my nemesis. Anyway, I applied to 7 MD schools, 27 DO schools, and SGU as a last resort. To my greatest surprise, I received a lot of love for a first time applicant that struggled so much in the MCAT. In total I got 12 interview invites (1 in-state MD, 10 DOs, and SGU). Of course, I was accepted at SGU real quick, but what mattered the most was that I got accepted to ARCOM and ATSU-KCOM. I couldn't have been happier and grateful that I got such great opportunities. All that to tell you that MD>DO>>>>Caribbean MD. Keep persevering and keep pushing forward, you will make it. Only choose Carribean after multiple unsuccessful cycles (at least 3) in the U.S., and if you have to go Caribbean go SGU. The other Caribbean schools are worst in terms of residency match.

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Accepted Stats DO Class of 2022
Acceptance Stats DO Class of 2022

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[GypsyHummus]

You were also an URM with an amazing personal story and a 3.7+ GPA. Many DO schools have averages in the 3.5 range, so an mcat +\- 2 points isn’t a huge deal.

For the people with the 3.4 and 496, they should look at Pod schools before the Caribbean.

I've actually seen people make it to DO schools with 3.0 GPAs or even lower. Check the Accepted DO applicant stats thread if you don't believe me. Since you haven't taken the MCAT yet, I'd say focus on doing well (505+) on the MCAT, get some more clinical ECs, and apply very broadly this coming cycle. I, myself got accepted in 2 DO schools this cycle with a 499 MCAT but my GPAs are 3.7+. I thought I wasn't gonna get in any U.S. medical school to be honest because I actually took the MCAT 5 times over the course of 2 years (2015-2017) and scored 18, 487, 492, 500(unbalanced), 499(well-balanced 124+/section). Taking into account that English is my second language and that I've only lived in the U.S. for 6 years, CARS was my nemesis. Anyway, I applied to 7 MD schools, 27 DO schools, and SGU as a last resort. To my greatest surprise, I received a lot of love for a first time applicant that struggled so much in the MCAT. In total I got 12 interview invites (1 in-state MD, 10 DOs, and SGU). Of course, I was accepted at SGU real quick, but what mattered the most was that I got accepted to ARCOM and ATSU-KCOM. I couldn't have been happier and grateful that I got such great opportunities. All that to tell you that MD>DO>>>>Caribbean MD. Keep persevering and keep pushing forward, you will make it. Only choose Carribean after multiple unsuccessful cycles (at least 3) in the U.S., and if you have to go Caribbean go SGU. The other Caribbean schools are worst in terms of residency match.

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[deleted888443]

Thousands of people from the Caribbean schools graduate and get a residency each year
And at least as many thousands. either never graduate or get a residency slot
Kinda like a Las Vegas Roulette Wheel

BTW, last time I was in Vegas, I got three winners in row. Put a dollar in a machine, and each time a can of Coca-Cola came out like that!

So basically Carib md=roulette wheel and US MD/DO=soda machine?

 

[the argus]

While the overall message of applying 2 cycles of USMD/DO admissions before considering the caribbean is valid, I would caution everyone to take the numbers being thrown around in this thread with a grain of salt.

I'm not interested in getting into the same old arguments with the same old posters, but I'll just explain a few easy ways that the numbers and fancy tables above are just pure nonsense based on faulty logic and poor interpretation of the data.

1) The data I present is from 2013 as that is that is the last year I have country-specific data
2) as others have said, the 67% percent in my table above is the match rate. The 93% they claim is for overall placement rate to residency as there are both "pre" and "post"match placement.

Yea, except that 67% totally doesn't represent the "match rate." When people say "match rate" they mean fresh grads applying for the first time. That 67% includes all graduates of SGU, regardless of year of graduation, i.e. it includes all the (poor) applicants from previous years that failed to match and are applying again. Look at that NRMP report you are citing, this one
http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uplo...tional-Medical-Graduates-Revised.PDF-File.pdf
scroll to page 5. You can clearly see that the mean number of years since graduation for unmatched US-IMGs is 5.7 years. The majority of those unmatched applicants (the 33%) aren't fresh grads, they are repeat poor applicants from previous years. Presenting that as the "match rate" is simply wrong and a poor interpretation of the data. Furthermore, comparing it to "the 93% they claim" is clearly wrong as SGU is talking about fresh grads applying for the first time.

3) 2013 had the "all-in" policy for NRMP so minor amount of pre-match which appears now to account for less than 100 slots

9) in SGU, at best, 10% drop out. Of that 90% left, 67% match into residency or about 60% of the original. With virtually no pre or post match, I cant see how SGU can claim anything approaching a realistic 93%.

Nope. Wrong and a poor interpretation of data.
http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Main-Match-Results-and-Data-2016.pdf
ACGME Data Resource Book
Residency and Fellowship Match
In 2016 (most recent we have data), 6638 (2869 US + 3769 foreign) IMGs got positions through NRMP, 172 through SOAP, and 13 in ophtho through San Fran match (plastics isn't broken down). Thats 6823 total, but surprisingly 7218 IMGs started residency that year (page 79 of most recent ACGME data resource book), a difference of ~400. Yes, not much in the grand scheme of things, but it again exemplifies how error-ridden this poster's "data" is. And add a couple hundred of those spots to SGU numbers and it could absolutely beef up their numbers to get to the percentages they state.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

While the overall message of applying 2 cycles of USMD/DO admissions before considering the caribbean is valid, I would caution everyone to take the numbers being thrown around in this thread with a grain of salt.

I'm not interested in getting into the same old arguments with the same old posters, but I'll just explain a few easy ways that the numbers and fancy tables above are just pure nonsense based on faulty logic and poor interpretation of the data.

Yea, except that 67% totally doesn't represent the "match rate." When people say "match rate" they mean fresh grads applying for the first time. That 67% includes all graduates of SGU, regardless of year of graduation, i.e. it includes all the (poor) applicants from previous years that failed to match and are applying again. Look at that NRMP report you are citing, this one
http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uplo...tional-Medical-Graduates-Revised.PDF-File.pdf
scroll to page 5. You can clearly see that the mean number of years since graduation for unmatched US-IMGs is 5.7 years. The majority of those unmatched applicants (the 33%) aren't fresh grads, they are repeat poor applicants from previous years. Presenting that as the "match rate" is simply wrong and a poor interpretation of the data. Furthermore, comparing it to "the 93% they claim" is clearly wrong as SGU is talking about fresh grads applying for the first time.


Nope. Wrong and a poor interpretation of data.
http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Main-Match-Results-and-Data-2016.pdf
ACGME Data Resource Book
Residency and Fellowship Match
In 2016 (most recent we have data), 6638 (2869 US + 3769 foreign) IMGs got positions through NRMP, 172 through SOAP, and 13 in ophtho through San Fran match (plastics isn't broken down). Thats 6823 total, but surprisingly 7218 IMGs started residency that year (page 79 of most recent ACGME data resource book), a difference of ~400. Yes, not much in the grand scheme of things, but it again exemplifies how error-ridden this poster's "data" is. And add a couple hundred of those spots to SGU numbers and it could absolutely beef up their numbers to get to the percentages they state.

So if I understand clearly, are you actually inferring that their match rate might actually be better than most DO schools in the U.S.?

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[the argus]

So if I understand clearly, are you actually inferring that their match rate might actually be better than most DO schools in the U.S.?

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If by match rate you mean, placement rate in ACGME programs of fresh grads applying for the first time not counting those lost to attrition, then yes.

Remember, DO schools have lower attrition and also still have DO only (AOA) programs to match into, and DOs who don't match in the NRMP (ACGME match) are able to then go back and fill the unfilled DO-only positions. That leads to more DOs who start medical school actually matching into residency, and a DO placement rate hovering in the very high 90s.

 

[Skip Intro]

That leads to more DOs who start medical school actually matching into residency, and a DO placement rate hovering in the very high 90s.

The AOA and ACGME boards are merging and it will be completed by July 2020.

The Single GME Accreditation System

Single GME Accreditation System

"Ensure all residency and fellowship applicants are eligible to enter all accredited programs in the United States, and can transfer from one accredited program to another without repeating training, and without causing the Sponsoring Institutions to lose Medicare funding."​

http://www.acgme.org/Portals/0/PDFs/Nasca-Community/FAQs.pdf?ver=2017-06-22-110310-923

This AOA-only advantage will soon be lost to osteopathic grads. And, this is being talked about widely among my osteopathic colleagues.

-Skip

 

[deleted201857]

The AOA and ACGME boards are merging and it will be completed by July 2020.

The Single GME Accreditation System

Single GME Accreditation System

"Ensure all residency and fellowship applicants are eligible to enter all accredited programs in the United States, and can transfer from one accredited program to another without repeating training, and without causing the Sponsoring Institutions to lose Medicare funding."​

http://www.acgme.org/Portals/0/PDFs/Nasca-Community/FAQs.pdf?ver=2017-06-22-110310-923

This AOA-only advantage will soon be lost to osteopathic grads. And, this is being talked about widely among my osteopathic colleagues.

-Skip

Could you elaborate on how you think this will change matching prospects for Carribbean grads?

Your posts have been very helpful btw. Thanks for contributing.

 

[laricb]

Could you elaborate on how you think this will change matching prospects for Carribbean grads?

Your posts have been very helpful btw. Thanks for contributing.

It won't affect SGU and ROSS in the NY,NJ metro area we out perform DO Students in these area's

 

[deleted201857]

It won't affect SGU and ROSS in the NY,NJ metro area we out perform DO Students in these area's

What do you mean by "outperform"? Higher match rate? More prestigious residency? More competitive specialties?

 

[deleted888443]

What do you mean by "outperform"? Higher match rate? More prestigious residency? More competitive specialties?

Those areas are more IMG friendly. SGU has affiliations with a bunch of New York and New Jersey hospitals so their grads have a better shot in those programs.

 

[PossibleDOC?]

Please remember that the AOA match happens earlier than the MD so a lot of IMGs used to get those spots because once DOs placed in AOA they were locked in and withdrawn from the MD match, so without that in 2020 we could see a shift because theres no more lock in early for the DOs leaving more MD spots open granted the stigma for MD residencies will still remain initially (No DOs, No IMGs, etc) but eventually it may even out. In a time of turbulence I wouldn't take the chance with carib I'd probably go DO just to be safer (if its possible for you of course)


We honestly don't know what will happen and for ANYONE whether it be an IMG grad, DO grad, MD grad, etc to say they know or have a good idea is totally out of their mind. We can't say what will happen. All we can do is lean on the side of caution and that means do what you can to stay in the states, DO or MD.

 

[UserUnidentified420]

Please remember that the AOA match happens earlier than the MD so a lot of IMGs used to get those spots because once DOs placed in AOA they were locked in and withdrawn from the MD match, so without that in 2020 we could see a shift because theres no more lock in early for the DOs leaving more MD spots open granted the stigma for MD residencies will still remain initially (No DOs, No IMGs, etc) but eventually it may even out. In a time of turbulence I wouldn't take the chance with carib I'd probably go DO just to be safer (if its possible for you of course)


We honestly don't know what will happen and for ANYONE whether it be an IMG grad, DO grad, MD grad, etc to say they know or have a good idea is totally out of their mind. We can't say what will happen. All we can do is lean on the side of caution and that means do what you can to stay in the states, DO or MD.

I think we can all expect USMD to stay safe and have a bigger market. I know for sure that DO students are "highly, extremely, you have to do this" expected to take the USMLE so they have to take 2 sets of boards to be on par with USMD. My friends are all planning on USMLE and board prep started M1.

 

[Skip Intro]

Could you elaborate on how you think this will change matching prospects for Carribbean grads?

I don't think it will have much affect on Carib grads. What it will do is diminish the opportunities for D.O. grads in specialty (e.g., surgical, etc.) fields where they have previously had protected spots.

-Skip

 

[UserUnidentified420]

I don't think it will have much affect on Carib grads. What it will do is diminish the opportunities for D.O. grads in specialty (e.g., surgical, etc.) fields where they have previously had protected spots.

-Skip

... so go carib over DO if USMD is out of question, right?

 

[Skip Intro]

... so go carib over DO if USMD is out of question, right?

Absolutely not! Exhaust all possibilities of being medically educated in the U.S., including osteopathy route, before going Caribbean. You will have far less regulatory obstacles and a far better chance of obtaining residency.

The only thing that's going to happen beginning in 2020 is that the osteopathy-only residencies are going to be opened-up to M.D. graduates. This means that, given the choice, the more competitive candidate will likely be selected by those programs. This will have the greatest impact in the most competitive specialties (ortho surgery, neurosurgery, derm, etc.) where the osteopathic-only programs "protected" those spots for D.O. grads. No longer the case. Carib grads never had a shot at those programs in the first place.

-Skip

 

[CriticalCareDoc7]

I went to the Caribbean. Graduated 2014.
Finished IM residency 2017. Worked this year at a hospitalist while applying to subspecialty. Matched to a premier program to start this July 2018.

Even with all this I implore you to exhaust all US options. Otherwise you constantly have this burden on you that you can never slip up. You will have to score higher on every exam and stand out compare to your US peers.

Fellowship wise - I would say besides my Step scores, I had very strong support from my IM program leadership and I interview well. Basically no one cuts you any slack if you're from the Carib.

I definitely felt I was at a disadvantage during the fellowship interview trail. There were times I was the only Carib grad among AMGs in the room and knew there was no way I was gonna get ranked higher than them regardless of my interview skills and accomplishments. In general, a big academic place is not gonna jeopardize their reputation by doing that. Fortunately for me, I hit it off with a couple PDs from big academic programs who didnt seem to care too much for the status quo.

Point being - this process is hell of a lot easier and less stressful without having the Caribbean badge to add to it.
There are all kinds of new post bacc programs, DO schools, etc. And if your
academic career thus far sucks then most likely trying to learn basic science on an island may not be the best way.

Despite all that, I truly enjoyed my journey thus far - from the east coast to the Caribbean, to residency on the west coast, it has molded me to the physician that I am today. I love connecting with my patients and being a physician is an amazing way to live life. So you gotta make your own decisions, but know its not an easy route. All the objective data supports that.

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[newsubstancep]

I went to the Caribbean. Graduated 2014.
Finished IM residency 2017. Worked this year at a hospitalist while applying to subspecialty. Matched to a premier program to start this July 2018.

Even with all this I implore you to exhaust all US options. Otherwise you constantly have this burden on you that you can never slip up. You will have to score higher on every exam and stand out compare to your US peers.

Fellowship wise - I would say besides my Step scores, I had very strong support from my IM program leadership and I interview well. Basically no one cuts you any slack if you're from the Carib.

I definitely felt I was at a disadvantage during the fellowship interview trail. There were times I was the only Carib grad among AMGs in the room and knew there was no way I was gonna get ranked higher than them regardless of my interview skills and accomplishments. In general, a big academic place is not gonna jeopardize their reputation by doing that. Fortunately for me, I hit it off with a couple PDs from big academic programs who didnt seem to care too much for the status quo.

Point being - this process is hell of a lot easier and less stressful without having the Caribbean badge to add to it.
There are all kinds of new post bacc programs, DO schools, etc. And if your
academic career thus far sucks then most likely trying to learn basic science on an island may not be the best way.

Despite all that, I truly enjoyed my journey thus far - from the east coast to the Caribbean, to residency on the west coast, it has molded me to the physician that I am today. I love connecting with my patients and being a physician is an amazing way to live life. So you gotta make your own decisions, but know its not an easy route. All the objective data supports that.

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Good stuff right there. Congrats on your success. The Carib badge will fade into a nice battle scar after fellowship.

Agree that it can be a great route and eventually successful route if you are forced to take it, but should try all US options first.

For OP: You absolutely need higher USMLE scores (5 to 10 points) and more research to be on the same page as your US counterpart. On the flip side, I know several programs and jobs that prefer to take Carib MDs over DOs. Not all prejudices target us. But the overall odds favor doing the DO route to doing Carib.

 

[showmedaway]

^Which programs are these? Sorry I can't reply directly because I'm new here and the site won't let me.

 

[livelearn]

so i decided to apply to caribean medical schools and then I read this post that says IMGs have to score higher on steps to compete for the same spots as us grads, to what extent is this true? like is it 10 points of difference to make up for the fact that you are an IMG?

thank you

That is absolutely true, You are competing against students that were able to get into a US medical schools. To be honest many people do not match if you look at first semester students to final semester students. The percentage they give you of people matching does not reflect the amount of people who failed out.

 

[MD54321]

That is absolutely true, You are competing against students that were able to get into a US medical schools. To be honest many people do not match if you look at first semester students to final semester students. The percentage they give you of people matching does not reflect the amount of people who failed out.

After going through the application process and interviewing I think that you don't necessarily have to get a higher score. I can only speak for SGU specifically but SGU has great relationships in the NY/NJ area and as you search for residency programs you can see programs that take 50% or more of IMG's (from SGU, AUC, Ross etc). For programs who already take a lot of IMG's I don't think you necessarily have to have a higher score than U.S students. Keep in mind that a lot of Caribbean students end up at residencies in community hospitals as opposed to university programs. U.S students tend to apply to less programs and are more particular in where they go whereas IMG's tend to apply broadly. If you only want a residency at one specific location and are not willing to budge then definitely take a lot of thought before going to the caribbean. If you are open to different options and know you can do well in medical school and on exams you should be fine.