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"At Caris Diagnostics, our primary focus is providing outpatient
gastrointestinal (GI) diagnostic services. Our group currently
comprises 20 highly specialized pathologists who have completed
sub-specialty fellowships training in GI and liver pathology or
had extensive subspecialty GI pathology experience.
Our pathologists evaluate biopsies from approximately
5,000 patients per week."
http://www.pathologypartners.com/pages/focusNL/giFocusNL/07_05_GI_FocusNL.pdf

My comment: Amazing numbers! That is about a quarter of a million cases per year (5000 x 52 weeks = 260,000) and more than 12000 cases per pathologist per year. As these megalabs suck up biopsy volume the need for pathologists will go way down since their pathologists are doing more than twice the number of cases per year than the typical community pathologist.
 

mcfaddens

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"At Caris Diagnostics, our primary focus is providing outpatient
gastrointestinal (GI) diagnostic services. Our group currently
comprises 20 highly specialized pathologists who have completed
sub-specialty fellowships training in GI and liver pathology or
had extensive subspecialty GI pathology experience.
Our pathologists evaluate biopsies from approximately
5,000 patients per week."
http://www.pathologypartners.com/pages/focusNL/giFocusNL/07_05_GI_FocusNL.pdf

My comment: Amazing numbers! That is about a quarter of a million cases per year (5000 x 52 weeks = 260,000) and more than 12000 cases per pathologist per year. As these megalabs suck up biopsy volume the need for pathologists will go way down since their pathologists are doing more than twice the number of cases per year than the typical community pathologist.
They market their services aggressively across the country, but only a handful are GI trained and what exactly is GI training anyway. I do like the way they do certain things, from what I heard they send out reps to install a computer program to the endoscope video output so that the endoscopy reports have integrated endoscopic images and in return request the biopsies for use of the software. Its about time we use the clinicians the way some of us are being used (podlab ref), and at least they are not Quest (Yet)
 

APCPPathologist

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I do like the way they do certain things, from what I heard they send out reps to install a computer program to the endoscope video output so that the endoscopy reports have integrated endoscopic images and in return request the biopsies for use of the software. Its about time we use the clinicians the way some of us are being used (podlab ref), and at least they are not Quest (Yet)
They are worse than Quest--they are coming after the AP bread and butter. Imaging you are in private practice with getting 20% of your volume from the local gi-docs....along comes caris with a $50k software package and a cheaper biopsy price for the gi-docs. Boom - there goes 20% of your volume. Caris has found a nice niche of touting 'gi path speciality' with a software system that fits in an exception to the Stark Laws. They are privately held by a VC/private equity group. They command significant volume and are probably planning their exit strategy. They will then bundle off this tremendous biopsy stream into some other major lab (e.g., quest or labcorp) or form some other megalab. Unless you are a shareholder in Caris or are an employee of Caris---they are not
your friend.
 

mcfaddens

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They are worse than Quest--they are coming after the AP bread and butter. Imaging you are in private practice with getting 20% of your volume from the local gi-docs....along comes caris with a $50k software package and a cheaper biopsy price for the gi-docs. Boom - there goes 20% of your volume. Caris has found a nice niche of touting 'gi path speciality' with a software system that fits in an exception to the Stark Laws. They are privately held by a VC/private equity group. They command significant volume and are probably planning their exit strategy. They will then bundle off this tremendous biopsy stream into some other major lab (e.g., quest or labcorp) or form some other megalab. Unless you are a shareholder in Caris or are an employee of Caris---they are not
your friend.
I know you are right, just wanted to see if anyone was gonna bite on this thread, having problems with them as well. Have you seen their brochure, its basically a cut and paste of actors in medical garb, worse than some pharmaceutical pamphlet. What are you doing to counter act this kind of stuff locally?
 
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I would avoid working for them. I agree with the comment above that they might be bumping up their numbers so that they can sell it off later and profit. They'll probably try prostates next or skins and then as the profit model keeps going up they will dump everything or merge or get bought out or whatever. Everyone left might be screwed. The only time I would work for them is if I was nearing retirement and they offered me a big signing bonus. Not a good job for your first job, I wouldn't say. But I don't know that much about it.

These labs suck in general. I don't really blame it all, like some of you like to, on oversupply of pathologists. I blame it mostly on people looking to make a buck. Some of them are pathologists, some of them are clinicians, a lot of them are "investors" and "administrators." Administrators suck. If your boss/department head when you start is not a practicing pathologist who you work with, think many times about picking that job.
 

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I don't understand the whole Caris thing sometimes. I know of one resident who took a Caris job and ended up doing mostly GI but seemed to work for a hospital also (covering frozens, signing out certain non GI resections, worked with other non GI pathologists). I don't quite understand the arrangement, unless maybe they own the practice.
 

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I don't really blame it all, like some of you like to, on oversupply of pathologists. I blame it mostly on people looking to make a buck
Well, to make a buck, you have to get it from someone. The question is how many of these arrangements stem ultimately from pathologist oversupply.

There's a number of pathologists who choose these jobs for lifestyle reasons, even if less degraded/degrading work were available. They want to be techs instead of doctors. We've all met the type.

But how many of these would be in pathology anyway, if less residency positions were available in the first place? And with less pathologists around to recruit, how many of these mills would be successful under their current meager pay and working conditions?
 

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There's a number of pathologists who choose these jobs for lifestyle reasons, even if less degraded/degrading work were available. They want to be techs instead of doctors. We've all met the type.

But how many of these would be in pathology anyway, if less residency positions were available in the first place? And with less pathologists around to recruit, how many of these mills would be successful under their current meager pay and working conditions?
For most reference labs I would agree with you-Quest, Labcorp, Dianon, Bostwick, etc. However if you look at the bios on the Caris website it seems like they are a bunch of ex-academics.

It's easy to forget that pathology is really big business when you have the right leverage. These big labs can pay their pathologist anywhere in the $200 to 1 million range and still make a ton of dough for their investors. BUT for those of us practicing in competition with them it means they are sucking away all of the easy revenue. I guess I need to go play more golf with my local GIs and hospital admins. This is NOT why I went into medicine--if I wanted to kiss up and make nice for every dollar I would have stayed in the biz. Pathology is not a speciality but a commodity to be bought at the lowest dollar. Happened in CP two decade ago and now it's in AP. As with other commodities - you don't want to be the farmer but the trader. I am definitely the farmer right now.
 

pathstudent

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They are worse than Quest--they are coming after the AP bread and butter. Imaging you are in private practice with getting 20% of your volume from the local gi-docs....along comes caris with a $50k software package and a cheaper biopsy price for the gi-docs. Boom - there goes 20% of your volume. Caris has found a nice niche of touting 'gi path speciality' with a software system that fits in an exception to the Stark Laws. They are privately held by a VC/private equity group. They command significant volume and are probably planning their exit strategy. They will then bundle off this tremendous biopsy stream into some other major lab (e.g., quest or labcorp) or form some other megalab. Unless you are a shareholder in Caris or are an employee of Caris---they are not
your friend.
But what I don't get is GI docs don't pay the pathologists, insurance companies do, so why do the GI docs care if Caris negotiated a lower price with the insurance companies?
 
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But what I don't get is GI docs don't pay the pathologists, insurance companies do, so why do the GI docs care if Caris negotiated a lower price with the insurance companies?
Pathstudent,
Are you really a pathology resident? Your statement above indicates a lack of knowledge of the current pathology marketplace. The GI docs do pay the pathologists and therefore they want to get the lowest price possible. For example, Aetna pays the GI doc $105 for an 88305 and the GI doc pays Caris $50 for the 88305 slide prep and interpretation. Therefore the GI doc gets to pocket $55 on each 88305 from Aetna patients.
Read here: http://www.massacademyofdermatology.org/wsjournal-09-30-05.htm
"Dr. Overholt showed how his practice of 12 doctors, Gastrointestinal Associates in Knoxville, netted $643,000 by sending its lab work to GI Pathology Partners in Memphis, Tenn. According to information presented at the seminar, Dr. Overholt's group paid $52.55 to GI Pathology Partners for each biopsy the lab examined and then billed insurance companies an average of $94.55 for the work."
 

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No one really teaches us squat about billing as residents. Most of what I've learned has come from links on SDN. It's like learning about the birds and the bees from the older neighborhood kids. I wonder if the faculty who are "training" me know much about billing. I've asked them sometimes if it is financially worth it to come in and do a frozen in the middle of the night. Most of them shrug and say it is part of the job even if it doesn't pay that well. That doesn't really answer my question.
 

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No one really teaches us squat about billing as residents. Most of what I've learned has come from links on SDN. It's like learning about the birds and the bees from the older neighborhood kids. I wonder if the faculty who are "training" me know much about billing. I've asked them sometimes if it is financially worth it to come in and do a frozen in the middle of the night. Most of them shrug and say it is part of the job even if it doesn't pay that well. That doesn't really answer my question.
Learn about billing. Read my earlier posts about clinician in-sourcing of surgical pathology services. This is your future.
 

pathstudent

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Pathstudent,
Are you really a pathology resident? Your statement above indicates a lack of knowledge of the current pathology marketplace. The GI docs do pay the pathologists and therefore they want to get the lowest price possible. For example, Aetna pays the GI doc $105 for an 88305 and the GI doc pays Caris $50 for the 88305 slide prep and interpretation. Therefore the GI doc gets to pocket $55 on each 88305 from Aetna patients.
Read here: http://www.massacademyofdermatology.org/wsjournal-09-30-05.htm
"Dr. Overholt showed how his practice of 12 doctors, Gastrointestinal Associates in Knoxville, netted $643,000 by sending its lab work to GI Pathology Partners in Memphis, Tenn. According to information presented at the seminar, Dr. Overholt's group paid $52.55 to GI Pathology Partners for each biopsy the lab examined and then billed insurance companies an average of $94.55 for the work."
Wow I really had no idea. That seems almost illegal. In fact isn't it? sn't that the definition of fee splitting? How can a GI doc bill for a pathology service that he didn't do? A family practice doctor can't get kick back from referring a patient to a particular Gastro or Cardio. How is this kosher?

No matter what, one day this current model of pathology will fall apart, so when that happens, I would just take note of these people http://www.carisdx.com/pages/diagServ/giDr.html and blacklist them. Don't they realize they are essentially pariahs to both academics and private practice people.
 
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pathstudent

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No one really teaches us squat about billing as residents. Most of what I've learned has come from links on SDN. It's like learning about the birds and the bees from the older neighborhood kids. I wonder if the faculty who are "training" me know much about billing. I've asked them sometimes if it is financially worth it to come in and do a frozen in the middle of the night. Most of them shrug and say it is part of the job even if it doesn't pay that well. That doesn't really answer my question.
You have to come in and do the frozen because that is your contractual obligation to the medical center.
 

Pathwrath

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For most reference labs I would agree with you-Quest, Labcorp, Dianon, Bostwick, etc. However if you look at the bios on the Caris website it seems like they are a bunch of ex-academics.

It's easy to forget that pathology is really big business when you have the right leverage. These big labs can pay their pathologist anywhere in the $200 to 1 million range and still make a ton of dough for their investors. BUT for those of us practicing in competition with them it means they are sucking away all of the easy revenue. I guess I need to go play more golf with my local GIs and hospital admins. This is NOT why I went into medicine--if I wanted to kiss up and make nice for every dollar I would have stayed in the biz. Pathology is not a speciality but a commodity to be bought at the lowest dollar. Happened in CP two decade ago and now it's in AP. As with other commodities - you don't want to be the farmer but the trader. I am definitely the farmer right now.
You are absolutely right.
 

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Caris Diagnostics Enhances its Medical Staff with the Addition of 22 Subspecialty Pathologists

http://www.carisdx.com/wp/?p=104


IRVING, Texas; October 07, 2009– Caris Diagnostics (Caris Dx), a leading provider of integrated anatomic pathology and molecular testing services, today announced that it has hired 22 subspecialist pathologists in the areas of Dermatopathology, GI pathology, Hematopathology, Oncologic pathology/tumor profiling, and Urologic pathology, bringing the total number of Caris Diagnostics’ expert pathologists to 61.


“We are indeed honored to have such distinguished academic leaders choose to join our team,” commented Richard H. Lash, M.D., Chief Medical Officer of Caris Diagnostics. “Their contribution to our ongoing diagnostic, educational, and research activities will ensure that Caris Diagnostics secures its position as the premier diagnostics company.”

With the addition of these new pathologists, 36 Caris Dx pathologists hold or have held academic professorships at the nation’s leading medical centers, and 9 have both M.D. and Ph.D. degrees. Also in keeping with our mission of academic-caliber pathology, the pathologists at Caris Dx have an extraordinary career record of academic productivity including over 1,500 peer-reviewed publications, 900 abstracts, and 100 books and book chapters.

The following are among the experts who have recently signed with Caris Dx:

GASTROINTESTINAL PATHOLOGY
Salima Haque, M.D. has over 17 years of experience in GI and liver pathology. She completed her fellowship in gastrointestinal, liver and transplantation pathology at Yale University School of Medicine, then, after 2 more years at Yale, served as Professor of Pathology and Head of Gastrointestinal and Liver Pathology at Tulane University. Dr. Haque has published numerous articles in peer reviewed journals and lectures nationally. Dr. Haque joins our distinguished GI pathology faculty in Dallas.

Mark Redston, M.D., has over 15 years of GI pathology experience and has served as Associate Professor, Department of Pathology at Harvard Medical School and Full Member, Graduate Faculty at the University of Toronto. He received his GI subspecialty training at Johns Hopkins Hospital and University and has authored over 90 research publications and book chapters. Dr. Redston will join us from Ameripath where he served as Managing Director of GI Diagnostics and Director of Molecular Diagnostics. Dr. Redston will serve as Medical Director of GI Molecular Pathology for Caris Dx.

HEMATOPATHOLOGY
Michael Miller, D.O. is a former Professor of Pathology at the University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center. He completed his hematopathology fellowship at the Cleveland Clinic Foundation, where he later served as Head, Section of Hematopathology and Director, Bone Marrow Transplant Laboratory. He recently served as Director, Immunohistochemistry, Image Analysis, and FISH Laboratories for UniPath. Dr. Miller will serve as Medical co-Director of Hematopathology at our Phoenix laboratory.

GENITOURINARY PATHOLOGY
Rajal B. Shah, M.D., joins Caris Dx from the University of Michigan where he served as Clinical Associate Professor of both Pathology and Urology as well as Director of the Urologic Pathology Section and Urologic Pathology Fellowship program. He undertook his fellowships in both genitourinary and surgical pathology from the University of Michigan. Dr. Shah has over 86 peer-reviewed journal publications and book chapters, speaks frequently at both national and international venues, and has been funded by several NIH grants. Dr. Shah will direct our new Genitourinary Pathology service beginning in January.

ONCOLOGIC PATHOLOGY
Raheela Ashfaq, M.D. joins Caris Dx from her position at the University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center as the Charles T. Ashworth Professor of Pathology, Professor of Obstetrics and Gynecology, and Director of OncoDiagnostics tumor profiling laboratory. She has more than 150 peer-reviewed publications and lectures frequently at national and international conferences. Leveraging her 10 years of experience in image analysis and tumor profiling by IHC, FISH, and molecular techniques, Dr. Ashfaq will serve as the Medical Director of Oncologic Pathology for Caris Dx.

DERMATOPATHOLOGY
Jill Allbritton, M.D. was previously Assistant Professor of Dermatology at Johns Hopkins University where she also completed her dermatology residency and fellowships in dermatopathology and dermatoimmunology. Her areas of interests include inflammatory disorders of the vulva and medical education in dermatopathology and clinical dermatology.

Diane Hoss, M.D. joins us from the University of Connecticut Health Center, where she served as Associate Professor of Dermatology and Director of the Hair Loss and Scalp Disorders Clinic. Dr. Hoss completed her dermatology residency at the Dartmouth-Hitchcock Medical Center followed by a dermatopathology fellowship at Cornell University Medical Center. Her areas of interest include alopecia and scalp disorders, cutaneous lymphocytic infiltrates, and clinical-pathologic correlation of difficult inflammatory dermatoses.

Julie Reimann M.D., Ph.D. completed multiple fellowships at Harvard Medical School/Brigham and Women’s Hospital, including dermatopathology and soft tissue pathology, and she earned her M.D. and Ph. D. degrees at Stanford University. Dr. Reimann’s areas of expertise include melanoma and pigmented lesions, soft tissue tumors, epithelial neoplasms, and alopecia, and she also has a particular interest in molecular dermatopathology. She joins us from Virginia Mason Medical Center in Seattle.

Elsa Velazquez, M.D. will be joining us from her position as Assistant Professor of Pathology at Harvard Medical School and Associate Dermatopathologist at Brigham and Women’s Hospital. Dr. Velazquez completed her dermatopathology fellowship and anatomic pathology residency at New York University Medical Center. Dr. Velazquez has numerous peer-reviewed journal publications and book chapters and presents frequently at national and international conferences. Her interests include skin neoplasia, squamous cell carcinoma, and malignant melanoma.

“Acquiring these distinguished pathologists furthers our commitment to diagnostic excellence, research and education while broadening the expertise and credentials of our already unprecedented team of diagnosticians,” concluded Dr. Lash.
 

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Caris Diagnostics Enhances its Medical Staff with the Addition of 22 Subspecialty Pathologists

http://www.carisdx.com/wp/?p=104


IRVING, Texas; October 07, 2009– Caris Diagnostics (Caris Dx), a leading provider of integrated anatomic pathology and molecular testing services, today announced that it has hired 22 subspecialist pathologists in the areas of Dermatopathology, GI pathology, Hematopathology, Oncologic pathology/tumor profiling, and Urologic pathology, bringing the total number of Caris Diagnostics' expert pathologists to 61.


"We are indeed honored to have such distinguished academic leaders choose to join our team," commented Richard H. Lash, M.D., Chief Medical Officer of Caris Diagnostics. "Their contribution to our ongoing diagnostic, educational, and research activities will ensure that Caris Diagnostics secures its position as the premier diagnostics company."

With the addition of these new pathologists, 36 Caris Dx pathologists hold or have held academic professorships at the nation's leading medical centers, and 9 have both M.D. and Ph.D. degrees. Also in keeping with our mission of academic-caliber pathology, the pathologists at Caris Dx have an extraordinary career record of academic productivity including over 1,500 peer-reviewed publications, 900 abstracts, and 100 books and book chapters.

The following are among the experts who have recently signed with Caris Dx:

GASTROINTESTINAL PATHOLOGY
Salima Haque, M.D. has over 17 years of experience in GI and liver pathology. She completed her fellowship in gastrointestinal, liver and transplantation pathology at Yale University School of Medicine, then, after 2 more years at Yale, served as Professor of Pathology and Head of Gastrointestinal and Liver Pathology at Tulane University. Dr. Haque has published numerous articles in peer reviewed journals and lectures nationally. Dr. Haque joins our distinguished GI pathology faculty in Dallas.

Mark Redston, M.D., has over 15 years of GI pathology experience and has served as Associate Professor, Department of Pathology at Harvard Medical School and Full Member, Graduate Faculty at the University of Toronto. He received his GI subspecialty training at Johns Hopkins Hospital and University and has authored over 90 research publications and book chapters. Dr. Redston will join us from Ameripath where he served as Managing Director of GI Diagnostics and Director of Molecular Diagnostics. Dr. Redston will serve as Medical Director of GI Molecular Pathology for Caris Dx.

HEMATOPATHOLOGY
Michael Miller, D.O. is a former Professor of Pathology at the University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center. He completed his hematopathology fellowship at the Cleveland Clinic Foundation, where he later served as Head, Section of Hematopathology and Director, Bone Marrow Transplant Laboratory. He recently served as Director, Immunohistochemistry, Image Analysis, and FISH Laboratories for UniPath. Dr. Miller will serve as Medical co-Director of Hematopathology at our Phoenix laboratory.

GENITOURINARY PATHOLOGY
Rajal B. Shah, M.D., joins Caris Dx from the University of Michigan where he served as Clinical Associate Professor of both Pathology and Urology as well as Director of the Urologic Pathology Section and Urologic Pathology Fellowship program. He undertook his fellowships in both genitourinary and surgical pathology from the University of Michigan. Dr. Shah has over 86 peer-reviewed journal publications and book chapters, speaks frequently at both national and international venues, and has been funded by several NIH grants. Dr. Shah will direct our new Genitourinary Pathology service beginning in January.

ONCOLOGIC PATHOLOGY
Raheela Ashfaq, M.D. joins Caris Dx from her position at the University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center as the Charles T. Ashworth Professor of Pathology, Professor of Obstetrics and Gynecology, and Director of OncoDiagnostics tumor profiling laboratory. She has more than 150 peer-reviewed publications and lectures frequently at national and international conferences. Leveraging her 10 years of experience in image analysis and tumor profiling by IHC, FISH, and molecular techniques, Dr. Ashfaq will serve as the Medical Director of Oncologic Pathology for Caris Dx.

DERMATOPATHOLOGY
Jill Allbritton, M.D. was previously Assistant Professor of Dermatology at Johns Hopkins University where she also completed her dermatology residency and fellowships in dermatopathology and dermatoimmunology. Her areas of interests include inflammatory disorders of the vulva and medical education in dermatopathology and clinical dermatology.

Diane Hoss, M.D. joins us from the University of Connecticut Health Center, where she served as Associate Professor of Dermatology and Director of the Hair Loss and Scalp Disorders Clinic. Dr. Hoss completed her dermatology residency at the Dartmouth-Hitchcock Medical Center followed by a dermatopathology fellowship at Cornell University Medical Center. Her areas of interest include alopecia and scalp disorders, cutaneous lymphocytic infiltrates, and clinical-pathologic correlation of difficult inflammatory dermatoses.

Julie Reimann M.D., Ph.D. completed multiple fellowships at Harvard Medical School/Brigham and Women's Hospital, including dermatopathology and soft tissue pathology, and she earned her M.D. and Ph. D. degrees at Stanford University. Dr. Reimann's areas of expertise include melanoma and pigmented lesions, soft tissue tumors, epithelial neoplasms, and alopecia, and she also has a particular interest in molecular dermatopathology. She joins us from Virginia Mason Medical Center in Seattle.

Elsa Velazquez, M.D. will be joining us from her position as Assistant Professor of Pathology at Harvard Medical School and Associate Dermatopathologist at Brigham and Women's Hospital. Dr. Velazquez completed her dermatopathology fellowship and anatomic pathology residency at New York University Medical Center. Dr. Velazquez has numerous peer-reviewed journal publications and book chapters and presents frequently at national and international conferences. Her interests include skin neoplasia, squamous cell carcinoma, and malignant melanoma.

"Acquiring these distinguished pathologists furthers our commitment to diagnostic excellence, research and education while broadening the expertise and credentials of our already unprecedented team of diagnosticians," concluded Dr. Lash.
hm...
 
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pathstudent

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Well they are going to have a tough time getting GI and GU business too because as long as insourcing becomes more common any reasonable urologist or gastroenterologist will choose to put an extra 50,000 in their pocket over sending their stuff to Caris for "academic quality" pathology.

But soon Obama will make us all govt employees and then all MBAs, Caris, Quest and Ameripaths will go away and we can just focus on pathology and we will be like DMV employees and can just work as hard as we feel like at that particular moment.
 

pathstudent

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Elsa Velazquez is pure hawtness. Sad to hear she's joining the dark side.
Maybe for a pathologist, but please... "pure hawtness"? You need to get out more.
 

pathstudent

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I of course think academics is the more honorable path to take, but I have noticed that academics has a lot of FMGs in it probably because skull and bones balls to the walls pathology groups like LADOCs haven't welcomed FMGs into their groups.

So what I noticed is that most of those Caries pathologsts are FMGs who probably wanted to go into skull and bones balls to the walls pathology where they could earn 500K a year but weren't welcome because they were FMGs. So it is a little ironic that now they have spent a few or more years in academics they now have academic cred and Caris can promote them as offering "academic quality" pathology and now they will take business and $$$$ from those skull and bones groups that wouldn't take them before.
 
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Granular

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I of course think academics is the more honorable path to take, but I have noticed that academics has a lot of FMGs in it probably because skull and bones balls to the walls pathology groups like LADOCs haven't welcomed FMGs into their groups.

So what I noticed is that most of those Caries pathologsts are FMGs who probably wanted to go into skull and bones balls to the walls pathology where they could earn 500K a year but weren't welcome because they were FMGs. So it is a little ironic that now they have spent a few or more years in academics they now have academic cred and Caris can promote them as offering "academic quality" pathology and now they will take business and $$$$ from those skull and bones groups that wouldn't take them before.
You have a strange sense of "honor." Are academics "honorable" because, in your view, they are not greedy? Or, are they in academics because they could not get into "balls to the wall" private groups? If you have a view that academics are honorable, you have not spent enough time in academia.

They are just like everyone else in terms of having priorities and working in an environment that protects and enhances their pursuit of those priorities. Academics fight over turf, titles, equipment, authorship, and virtually any resource you can think of. They bask in the glory of acknowledgement of their expertise, though much of their productivity is due to overworked trainees and hoarding of resources. Some academics never lift a finger - they take credit for work they have barely looked at. In fact, there are medical "writing"/marketing companies that prepare manuscripts for pharma and they want to add credibility to their publications by adding the names of academics to their paper. Sure enough, academics are on board with this. They are not paid directly for the authorship, but they get a nice trip to a resort to give a talk with a generous honorarium in exchange. Academics also try to publish stuff they don't believe, or work that is incomplete, just to get another publication on their CV before a performance review or submission of a grant proposal.

If you want to argue that academics are not greedy, maybe you can construct a vague argument by comparing their income with income from private practice. I think academics sign out a lot fewer cases and get paid proportionally less. However, to argue that they are somehow more "honorable" by their career path is ridiculous. Many suffer from "pride" and "sloth" instead of "greed."

That being said, I plan to work in academia. However, it is out of pride (my desire to be an expert) rather than honor. I do not advocate many of the behaviors I've described. Nor do I enter the academic realm harboring gross misconceptions of the environment or the people.
 

pathstudent

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You have a strange sense of "honor." Are academics "honorable" because, in your view, they are not greedy? Or, are they in academics because they could not get into "balls to the wall" private groups? If you have a view that academics are honorable, you have not spent enough time in academia.

They are just like everyone else in terms of having priorities and working in an environment that protects and enhances their pursuit of those priorities. Academics fight over turf, titles, equipment, authorship, and virtually any resource you can think of. They bask in the glory of acknowledgement of their expertise, though much of their productivity is due to overworked trainees and hoarding of resources. Some academics never lift a finger - they take credit for work they have barely looked at. In fact, there are medical "writing"/marketing companies that prepare manuscripts for pharma and they want to add credibility to their publications by adding the names of academics to their paper. Sure enough, academics are on board with this. They are not paid directly for the authorship, but they get a nice trip to a resort to give a talk with a generous honorarium in exchange. Academics also try to publish stuff they don't believe, or work that is incomplete, just to get another publication on their CV before a performance review or submission of a grant proposal.

If you want to argue that academics are not greedy, maybe you can construct a vague argument by comparing their income with income from private practice. I think academics sign out a lot fewer cases and get paid proportionally less. However, to argue that they are somehow more "honorable" by their career path is ridiculous. Many suffer from "pride" and "sloth" instead of "greed."

That being said, I plan to work in academia. However, it is out of pride (my desire to be an expert) rather than honor. I do not advocate many of the behaviors I've described. Nor do I enter the academic realm harboring gross misconceptions of the environment or the people.
Honorable as you are not only a clinician but a teacher/educator and researcher who is "pushing the envelope". I think most people find those as honorable endavours. But if you don't like that word, how about "more rewarding".
 
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Honorable as you are not only a clinician but a teacher/educator and researcher who is "pushing the envelope". I think most people find those as honorable endavours. But if you don't like that word, how about "more rewarding".
Are those not in academics not honorable? Are we not teachers/educators? I spend part of every day educating clinicians (some residents, some attendings) on pathology. I don't do bench research but I study literature and correlate findings we have with findings in the literature, etc. Most practicing academic pathologists don't do bench research. They do clinical correlative projects but they also have more time to do this. I do not have this time. I also work harder than many of the academics I have met. There is comfort and security in academics which draws many people to it - there is pressure, yes, but different kinds of pressures impact people in different ways.

Academics is only more rewarding if you are getting what you want out of it. I liked some things about academics but not others. I don't like writing papers - does this mean I don't like furthering knowledge? It means I don't like writing papers because there is a lot of bull**** that goes into that. I read a lot of papers and a lot of them are total bull**** and not worth my time. Is it "honorable" that some academics spend so much time on such meaningless and unintelligent crap?

There are plenty of IMGs in private groups, even in selective ones. How do you know that Caris is hiring academics who "couldn't get a good private practice job"? Could it be that Caris is going to continue to allow them to do research? I know two of the names on that list and that is one of the main reasons they took the job. $$$ is one major factor, subspecialty focus is another, and ability to continue to do research with support is another. Neither would have taken that job without the latter factor. Many many FMGs come to this country because of research and keep that as part of their career. If FMGs are overrepresented as academics it is quite possibly because they are overrepresented among those who actually enjoy research.
 

rollwithit

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Honorable as you are not only a clinician but a teacher/educator and researcher who is "pushing the envelope". I think most people find those as honorable endavours. But if you don't like that word, how about "more rewarding".
Do you ever get off that high horse you are riding on, or are you generally a jerk in all aspects of life?

You may feel greatly rewarded in academia - that's fine and I hope you have a long and rewarding career. But, there is no need to lump two groups of intelligent and hard-working people into "honorable" and "not honorable" simply because your experience with one rewards you more than the other. That's quite a bit of assumption and generalization based on one person's experience. Don't be so judgmental. To each their own.
 

pathstudent

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Do you ever get off that high horse you are riding on, or are you generally a jerk in all aspects of life?

You may feel greatly rewarded in academia - that's fine and I hope you have a long and rewarding career. But, there is no need to lump two groups of intelligent and hard-working people into "honorable" and "not honorable" simply because your experience with one rewards you more than the other. That's quite a bit of assumption and generalization based on one person's experience. Don't be so judgmental. To each their own.

I never said anyone wasn't honorable.
 

rollwithit

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I never said anyone wasn't honorable.
Okay. I'll try again.

Do you ever get off that high horse you are riding on, or are you generally a jerk in all aspects of life?

You may feel greatly rewarded in academia - that's fine and I hope you have a long and rewarding career. But, there is no need to lump two groups of intelligent and hard-working people into "honorable" and "<s>not</s> less honorable" simply because your experience with one rewards you more than the other. That's quite a bit of assumption and generalization based on one person's experience. Don't be so judgmental. To each their own.
Either way, it's very pompous to rank yourself ahead of others as "more honorable" when dealing with such subjective measures.
 

Nilf

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I never said anyone wasn't honorable.
Your condescending attitude is typical of many folks in academia. Take a long look at yourself. Maybe you are not contributing to the society as much as you think, and the sun doesn't revolve around your gluteus.

Dreimal 100 Advokaten Vaterland du bist verraten. Dreimal 100 Professoren Vaterland du bist verloren
 

Gyric

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Ahh a debate on who is more honorable, how far we have fallen.

The term honor encompasses different measurements of worth and stature. For Pathstudent the term honor could be interpreted to reflect a measure of respect. For others it brings to mind ideals of honesty and integrity. To imply that private practice pathologists as a group are less honest or have less integrity is rather outrageous. That being said, clearly there are market forces in medicine (including pathology) that encourage “dishonorable” behavior, and these individuals (hopefully a minority) are likely disproportionately located in private practice. In my experience some of the large, and especially the intermediate sized, corporate labs (Caris, Genoptix, etc) have dropped even the illusion of putting patient care first and are really just parasites on our profession.

Certainly not all private practice/corporate pathologists place money above all else, but there is no argument that academics selects for those who put less importance on the $ (admittedly the environment perhaps favors other character flaws).
 

Patrick O

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Just do what makes you happy. Private practice, academia....working for the man, money hungry....etc.
 
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