Carribean Schools (Ross University)

[vin5cent0]

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As part of our pre-med club, we had a rep from Ross Univ. come in today to tell us all about the "benefits" of going to their school over others.

Now, I realize it's her job to hype up her school as the biggest and best, even when in reality, there's a reason people apply there after they get rejected from US medical schools.

My question is, what really are the disadvantages of a school like Ross Univ over others? According to her, they had competitive board scores (94% passed vs. 95% for US schools), state of the art equipment (I will admit, their anat. lab looked very impressive, as did a lot of their other services like all lectures being recorded/posted online daily, the psuedo-patients you could "operate" on, etc), high placement into residencies in all 50 states, etc.

I know it's not as grandeur as she'd like it to sound, so I'm curious about why it's a bad choice to attend a school like this. I haven't even taken the MCAT yet, so I'm not writing off US schools at all. Just a bit curious at the moment.

 

[Handy388]

Residency placement:

top tier USMD = medium tier USMD = lower tier USMD > USDO (for allo placements) >> SGU > Ross + Saba + AUC >>> all the other carib schools.

If you gonna go carib, at least go to SGU.

BTW, Ross is owned by the DeVry family.

 

[virusgirl]

I don't know anything about Ross in particular, but my understanding is that attrition rate at the Caribbean schools is high. If 94% of them pass the boards, then that's great, but consider that a lot of students don't last that long. They leave for various reasons.

Handy is absolutely right in terms of residency placement. If you look at the number of Caribbean grads vs. US grads who match into US residencies, the difference is appalling. Now, before this thread swarms with hordes of people who "know someone who went to XYZ school in the Caribbean and got a good residency," YES it does happen. Yes, you can go to Ross and become head of dermatology at Hopkins. But, the odds are stacked against you. Something else to bear in mind is that of those Caribbean grads who DO match into the US, they tend not to be very competitive residencies. Lots of IM and FM, not a lot of surgery and rad onc.

Rightly or wrongly, the Caribbean schools are generally perceived negatively by the medical community. You can certainly overcome that by working hard and proving everyone wrong, but you should be aware that there is a stigma. I wouldn't go unless I had no other option.

 

[linguini]

One of my friends from college is a 2nd year at Ross so I can only tell you my very limited and anecdotal knowledge. In terms of academics, she feels classes are adequate in the amount of material and challenging for her. She hasn't taken the boards yet (which I think they take?) so I can't say if she feels well prepared for step 1. In terms of location, she can't wait to get back to the US. Dominica is beautiful (I visited on a cruise and it was phenomenal!) but it's small, underdeveloped, and populated by natives that, in her experience, do not act kindly towards the medical students (I'm sure it's not just one-sided of course). It's very expensive to fly from the US to Dominica so for the most part she feels very stranded there. In terms of social life, I think it was a big change for her from college. There isn't too much to do and she is always around her classmates because of the isolation of the medical school (which could be good or bad depending on your preference). I guess Ross is affiliated with a hospital in Miami which is where she is hoping to spend her summer. After that she is going to try to do her clinical rotations in NY somewhere. Obviously this is only one student's perspective so it certainly doesn't describe the Ross experience for everyone.

I'm not going to go deep into the Caribbean med school vs. US med school debate. But as other posters have mentioned, I have heard from multiple sources that you should try to avoid the Caribbean medical school system (with perhaps the exception of SGU) for residency placement purposes.

 

[mmmcdowe]

Their high percentage rate is because you have to first qualify with a preliminary exam at Ross before they let you attempt to take the Step 1.

 

[Depakote]

As part of our pre-med club, we had a rep from Ross Univ. come in today to tell us all about the "benefits" of going to their school over others.

Now, I realize it's her job to hype up her school as the biggest and best, even when in reality, there's a reason people apply there after they get rejected from US medical schools.

My question is, what really are the disadvantages of a school like Ross Univ over others? According to her, they had competitive board scores (94% passed vs. 95% for US schools), state of the art equipment (I will admit, their anat. lab looked very impressive, as did a lot of their other services like all lectures being recorded/posted online daily, the psuedo-patients you could "operate" on, etc), high placement into residencies in all 50 states, etc.

I know it's not as grandeur as she'd like it to sound, so I'm curious about why it's a bad choice to attend a school like this. I haven't even taken the MCAT yet, so I'm not writing off US schools at all. Just a bit curious at the moment.

I would be very cautious about any numbers quoted from Carib schools.

My understanding is that only students that demonstrate the ability to pass the USMLE on a pre-test are allowed to sit for the exam. They might have a decent pass rate, but you could have 1/2 of the entering class barred from sitting for the exam.

 

[atomi]

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[linguini]

LOL where does this info come from?

For what it's worth top MD schools place significantly better than lesser-renowned MD schools. The match list is important and top schools advertise it for a reason.

You would know that because you're a residency director??? I think this prevalent pre-med theory has been refuted again and again by many medical students on SDN.

 

[235009]

For what it's worth top MD schools place significantly better than lesser-renowned MD schools. The match list is important and top schools advertise it for a reason.

what does "place significantly better" even mean? is it just that there are more people placing into surgery, radiology, etc from top MD schools than "lesser-renowned" MD schools...because that is mostly a function of the goals of the students in the programs and their whims. if this is what you are talking about you are assuming that everyone would do a "competitive" residency if they had the chance and those who go into less competitive residencies do so only because they couldn't get into a competitive residency

 

[Handy388]

LOL where does this info come from?

For what it's worth top MD schools place significantly better than lesser-renowned MD schools. The match list is important and top schools advertise it for a reason.

well, actually, to be brutally honest, top 5 do places differently, but I consider the top tier to be top 50 school, middle tier = 50-100, and the rest = lower tiered.

I feel that the whole tier classification really differs between each indivdual. It's really diffcult for a premed to rank the med school precisely, but it's easy to see a difference between rock star school, excellent school, good school and adequate schools.

 

[copingmethods]

You would know that because you're a residency director??? I think this prevalent pre-med theory has been refuted again and again by many medical students on SDN.

Those medical students that refuted it may be right (they certainly sound convincing), but they're not residency directors either.

 

[Law2Doc]

...
For what it's worth top MD schools place significantly better than lesser-renowned MD schools. The match list is important and top schools advertise it for a reason.

Um, no. Match lists are horribly useless to premeds, for reasons elaborated on in numerous other threads. And no, the placement is not significantly better. It's very much an individual effort. The same person would very likely match at the same place independent of what med school he studied at. (Premeds have a very different take than most med students on this because they seem to think the med school name carries you a lot further than you will find that it actually does. I think there is a lot of wishful thinking on this board as well because folks want to feel like getting into a good med school is like reaching the pinnacle of a mountain, when in fact getting into any US allo med school is merely reaching base camp.)

 

[vin5cent0]

Very interesting about the board tests. I was wondering how they were so competitive with US schools.. a little ridiculous that they pre-screen who can take it before hand. I wish I had known that yesterday so I could've called her out on it.

 

[Artful Dodger]

Make it your very very last resort. If for somehow you can't get into any MD or DO schools here (and you really don't want to waste your time), you should consider Caribbean Med Schools. Despite what you read on SDN, there is a good chance you can match in the residency of your choice...but that comes with hard work. However, go if you're desperate...it's not a terrible option, but it might turn out a little overwhelming for you, such as you may have to do more to get your MD (as mentioned above - pre-test before USLME, etc.). Oh, and technically, you are a FMG (foreign medical grad) if you study there and come back here.

 

[Law2Doc]

Very interesting about the board tests. I was wondering how they were so competitive with US schools.. a little ridiculous that they pre-screen who can take it before hand. I wish I had known that yesterday so I could've called her out on it.

General rule -- if something sounds too good to be true, it isn't. Offshore schools are NEVER a good first choice. They are fine as a second chance to still have a shot at becoming a doctor when your first choice doesn't pan out, after multiple attempts. The key issues are (1) you limit your residency options significantly, (2) attrition is absurdly high, (3) these schools play games as to who can take boards or apply for the match in order to have better seeming board scores and match lists, (4) you are often somewhat on your own in terms of setting up rotations, and (5) these places are not cheap. So this should be something you save as a last resort, not a first one. Only 40% of folks from non-US med schools match each year, as compared to 94.2% of US allo med students. Only about 60-70% pass the boards as compared to 90% of US med students. Of course the better caribbean schools do better than the worse ones, but none of them is on par with a US allo school in terms of residency options for the average matriculant.

 

[swamprat]

I think that because competition for medical school admission in the US is so great, a lot of people that are qualified but got shut down may choose to go to the Caribbean. Just because someone can not get into a US medical school does not mean they can't pass the USMLE and graduate from medical school. The whole process is a little ridiculous, and year after year the averages go up, both MCAT and GPA. Where is it all heading? I don't know. Ten years from now you probably won't even get passed initial screening at a mid-level school with a 3.6 GPA and a 30 MCAT. So I think if you look at the USMLE pass rate for a Carib school (assuming they teach properly, which they must if you can be licensed in all 50 states), you should not read into it. Yes there are people that are down there that probably shouldn't be in medical school, but a lot of people that I have seen with Carib as the only option are bright individuals that WILL succeed. For example, my lab friend with a 3.8 GPA, tons of research/publications/clinical exp and great LOR but denied from every allopathic school because of his 26 MCAT score. He did get accepted to a AUC, although I do not know if he is going to attend. Another example would be my pediatrition. He admitted his grades were not the greatest, and he had a good time in college. Well hes doing just fine. I guess the only real worry I would have with caribean schools would be if I wanted to be a surgeon or some very competitve speciality like dermatology.

 

[Law2Doc]

...So I think if you look at the USMLE pass rate for a Carib school (assuming they teach properly, which they must if you can be licensed in all 50 states), you should not read into it. ...

You absolutely have to read into it, or you are playing into the deception. If you look at some of the schools' websites (I won't name names), you will see that the total enrollment is greater than 4 times either the graduating class or the matriculating class. Meaning folks are getting stuck someplace in the middle. That should be a tip off that the school is playing games, not letting people progress. The places that have great board scores and match lists absolutely do achieve these things by holding people back until they demonstrate internally that they are "ready".

You also have to focus on the attrition. A school that dumps 20-40% of its matriculating class isn't going to be as forgiving as a US allo med school, where 4% attrition is considered a bad year.

 

[swamprat]

You absolutely have to read into it, or you are playing into the deception. If you look at some of the schools' websites (I won't name names), you will see that the total enrollment is greater than 4 times either the graduating class or the matriculating class. Meaning folks are getting stuck someplace in the middle. That should be a tip off that the school is playing games, not letting people progress. The places that have great board scores and match lists absolutely do achieve these things by holding people back until they demonstrate internally that they are "ready".

You also have to focus on the attrition. A school that dumps 20-40% of its matriculating class isn't going to be as forgiving as a US allo med school, where 4% attrition is considered a bad year.

Ok makes sense, but what do you think the reason is for the high attrition rate? I thought of it as people that go that shouldnt be in med school in the first place. Those < 3.0 GPA and < 20 MCAT type of people. If that is the case then it would make sense they wouldnt pass the USMLE and/or drop out. Besides, I heard from somewhere that you still can take the usmle regardless of your grade on their pre-usmle test, they just advice against it if you do poorly. Idk if thats true or where I heard it from though.

 

[Law2Doc]

Ok makes sense, but what do you think the reason is for the high attrition rate? I thought of it as people that go that shouldnt be in med school in the first place. Those < 3.0 GPA and < 20 MCAT type of people. If that is the case then it would make sense they wouldnt pass the USMLE and/or drop out. Besides, I heard from somewhere that you still can take the usmle regardless of your grade on their pre-usmle test, they just advice against it if you do poorly. Idk if thats true or where I heard it from though.

Different schools likely have different rules. Some of the ones that brag high pass rates and good match lists definitely do so by not permitting folks to sit for the test or match, not by simply advising against it.


The reasons for attrition rate are partly that the schools accept folks who might not be capable of med school, but more often it is that the schools don't give people second chances like they do here in the states, and are happy to take their money and dump them aside like yesterday's news.

 

[linguini]

Those medical students that refuted it may be right (they certainly sound convincing), but they're not residency directors either.

At least they have probably talked to or been mentored by one.

 

[atomi]

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[atomi]

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[linguini]

So have I, who confirmed how important the school is in residency applications. Keep on believing what you want to believe.

Let me counter your anecdotal evidence with some anecdotal evidence of my own. The chief of my department (we are one of Harvard's affiliated hospitals), who is a very very powerful man in medicine in this country, came from *gasp* a middle-tier medical school! The second biggest name in the department in terms of academia went to *double gasp* a southern state school! The horror...🙄

Just like undergrad, it's not so much where you went, it's what you did with your time there.

 

[Law2Doc]

It's a common myth amongst pre-meds that all US allo schools are the same. They're not, and reputation of the school matters (it matters A LOT in academic medicine). This is coming straight from a chief attending at a big-name school when I questioned him about this 'myth.' It sucks, but the school does matter in terms of getting into competitive residencies.

It is a more common myth among premeds that they know more about the residency process than med students in the thick of it. Trust me, while your school name is on the list of things residencies look at it is way way way WAY down the list. Meaning the dude with the high board scores and glowing evals and AOA and good LORs and interesting research is going to get his choice of residency slots, while the dude who was average but went to a better ranked school won't. Schools add little to the process. All US allo med schools provide a fairly high caliber education, and residencies know this. So when you look at the various competitive residency rosters, you will generally see a good mix of competitive and not as competitive med schools represented. Premeds don't like this concept. They like to feel like if they get into Harvard med, they have reached the mountain top. In fact, they have just started the climb. And the dude who started at a less prestigious mountaintop can scamper past them in an instant. Don't buy into the "look at our match list" hype. Schools all give out match lists because they ALL look good and because they know that you can't read them usefully anyhow.

As for asking someone at a high ranked school if attending a high ranked school is important, obviously you aren't going to get an unbiased opinion. Question the source. That's like asking a NY Yankee what the best baseball team in the AL East is. (Hint-- he's not going to say Tampa). And FWIW, unless the attending is a PD (in which case for sure he is biased), he probably has little knowledge of what the residency process is like these days.

 

[copingmethods]

As for asking someone at a high ranked school if attending a high ranked school is important, obviously you aren't going to get an unbiased opinion. Question the source. That's like asking a NY Yankee what the best baseball team in the AL East is. (Hint-- he's not going to say Tampa). And FWIW, unless the attending is a PD (in which case for sure he is biased), he probably has little knowledge of what the residency process is like these days.

Well if the person from that high-ranked school has that bias (that you just acknowledged some people DO have) and is a PD, then doesn't that mean it does matter what school you went to if you're applying to THAT program?

 

[Law2Doc]

Well if the person from that high-ranked school has that bias (that you just acknowledged some people DO have) and is a PD, then doesn't that mean it does matter what school you went to if you're applying to THAT program?

I actually should have said adcom rather than PD, sorry. Somebody with a stake in the school name. (Med students are focused on the next stage.) There is a hierarchy of what is important to getting a residency of your choice. School name is very low on that list. So low that it probably doesn't come into play for most people. Certainly not enough that it should dictate your med school choice. Go where you think you will thrive, have fun and do well. Because doing well will matter more than anything else.

 

[Handy388]

I actually should have said adcom rather than PD, sorry. Somebody with a stake in the school name. (Med students are focused on the next stage.) There is a hierarchy of what is important to getting a residency of your choice. School name is very low on that list. So low that it probably doesn't come into play for most people. Certainly not enough that it should dictate your med school choice. Go where you think you will thrive, have fun and do well. Because doing well will matter more than anything else.

law2doc, just curious, what stage of training are you at right now, and which med school have you attended? You are the wisdom on this board, but I see you post a lot in residency and even post residency issue as well. Judging from what you write, I expect you to be an attending or a resident.

 

[Law2Doc]

law2doc, just curious, what stage of training are you at right now, and which med school have you attended? You are the wisdom on this board, but I see you post a lot in residency and even post residency issue as well. Judging from what you write, I expect you to be an attending or a resident.

I also post on the high school board too, go figure.
No interest in outing myself with personal information. I just am vocal about things I feel I know something about -- as a nontrad I've been around the block.

 

[Handy388]

I also post on the high school board too, go figure.
No interest in outing myself with personal information. I just am vocal about things I feel I know something about -- as a nontrad I've been around the block.

posting whether you are still a med student/resident/attending isn't exactly going to out yourself and probably add a lot more weight to your comments.

you have been really vocal about the top tier LCME vs. middle of the road LCME school issues and it would be better to assess the quality of your statements if we know where exactly it came from, rather than something you "heard around the block".

 

[virusgirl]

Well, Law2Doc's status does say medical student...

 

[Handy388]

I feel he's a lot more knowledgable than your usual med student.

 

[Nick Name]

Residency placement:

top tier USMD = medium tier USMD = lower tier USMD > USDO (for allo placements) >> SGU > Ross + Saba + AUC >>> all the other carib schools.

If you gonna go carib, at least go to SGU.

BTW, Ross is owned by the DeVry family.

I would agree with this except maybe place a larger gap between top tier or medium tier USMD schools and lower tier USMD schools , and lower tier USMD equal to DO, then a larger gap and then place SGU and Ross and AUC and even SABA all equal to each other. My experience is that Ross students place a bit better, but that is just what I have seen.

But the gap between any US school and foreign school will probably increase. It will probably become harder and harder for any foreign trained MD to get licensed in this country - with increasing competition from US nurses, more spots opening for US medical schools etc.

But I have made several contacts who went to one of the Caribbean schools, loved the experience, seem very competent, and placed into some residency they say they are happy with. I know of Ross students getting into general surgery, EM and anesthesia

Try to go US if you can.

 

[Law2Doc]

I feel he's a lot more knowledgable than your usual med student.

Thanks.
Feel free to weight my statements however you see fit, you'll have to decide whether you value my comments or not based on the words themselves. My status appears below my screen name and my screen name suggests my prior career. As there aren't numerous folks with both these credentials, I would be outing myself to provide more. I feel that's more info than most posters provide about themselves anyhow. Good luck.

 

[Law2Doc]

I would agree with this except maybe place a larger gap between top tier or medium tier USMD schools and lower tier USMD schools , and lower tier USMD equal to DO...

Based on what? The percent of US students who match in the US allo residency match is higher than DO students (94.2 compared to 71%, according to the 2008 match press release by the BRMP). DO students have their own match, so there are other avenues for success, but the allo match is biased for US allo students, no question.

As for the gap between top schools and lower tier schools, I don't know how you would determine this, even if it were true. The same percentage of folks more or less match from top to bottom, and where they apply/match to is largely a matter of personal choice so it would be hard to look at objective data and determine that there is a "large gap" between the 90% who got what they wanted from top tier schools and the 90% who got what they wanted from lower tier schools.

You guys don't have to like the idea that the game isn't over when you get into med school, but you are going to see things differently in a very short while.

 

[Handy388]

Thanks.
Feel free to weight my statements however you see fit, you'll have to decide whether you value my comments or not based on the words themselves. My status appears below my screen name and my screen name suggests my prior career. As there aren't numerous folks with both these credentials, I would be outing myself to provide more. I feel that's more info than most posters provide about themselves anyhow. Good luck.

ah, forgot about your unique background. My apologies.

 

[atomi]

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[atomi]

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[Handy388]

Based on what? The percent of US students who match in the US allo residency match is higher than DO students (94.2 compared to 71%, according to the 2008 match press release by the BRMP). DO students have their own match, so there are other avenues for success, but the allo match is biased for US allo students, no question.

As for the gap between top schools and lower tier schools, I don't know how you would determine this, even if it were true. The same percentage of folks more or less match from top to bottom, and where they apply/match to is largely a matter of personal choice so it would be hard to look at objective data and determine that there is a "large gap" between the 90% who got what they wanted from top tier schools and the 90% who got what they wanted from lower tier schools.

You guys don't have to like the idea that the game isn't over when you get into med school, but you are going to see things differently in a very short while.

just for the sake of discussion, it SEEMS that there is a disparity between matchlist of different tiers of USMD schools.

I think the matchlist of Harvard vs. Case western vs. Northeastern ohio school of medicine look QUITE different.

question is, how much of that is self-selection, caliber of students, and how much of that is school name?

I feel like the name brand of school is diffcult to measure. I wonder if there can be a study design to study the effect of ranking vs. residency placement with all the other variables controlled.

also, I imagine for competitive specialties, there might be a lot of "score twins", where the decision between applicants goes beyond the scores.

also, don't prestiguous programs want good pedigree anyway? please discuss.

 

[Law2Doc]

What you just said has absolutely nothing to do with applying for competitive residency positions in the next few years.

The goal is to end up in a residency you enjoy, not necessarily one that is competitive. You obviously want to keep all options open, and there will be a range of programs within each specialty, but I would suggest that so long as you get into a US allo school the doors are all still going to be open to you, and the rest is really simply up to you. Your school won't get you the residency of your dream, your hard work, high scores will.

A word of caution: Some folks on here are acting like it would be a failure for someone to end up in anything other than rad onc or derm, i.e. the most competitive things. (Which in and of itself is a reason match lists aren't helpful in most people's hands.) But once you are in med school you are going to see that most of the people who could get either of those probably won't even want either of those. The goal is to find something you are going to be happy doing full time every day for the next 45 years. Sometimes it's a competitive path, sometimes it won't be. There are more residency slots than US allo students, so all schools brag better than 90% match success. And all schools are going to have most of their students matching into things THEY chose. The dude who matched into a good peds program had just as successful match as the guy who matched into a good optho program, regardless of whether each attended the top school or the bottom. Your opportunities will be similar from either place simply because of the fact that residencies weight other factors more importantly than school name, so the determination of who gets each residency is made based on the Step 1 scores, evals, research and interview even before the school gets to factors like school name.

Will it be easier to get an academic position down the road if you have a better med school pedigree? Possibly, but that's debatable. Will it be impossible to get a given residency from a US allo school not in the top 10. No. Are you likely to end up in a residency of your choosing, with limitations, if any, based largely on school independent things like your Step 1 score, regardless of what med school you attend? Absolutes.

 

[Law2Doc]

...
also, I imagine for competitive specialties, there might be a lot of "score twins", where the decision between applicants goes beyond the scores.
...

If this happens it's your own fault for not distinguishing yourself through an "away rotation". There is no reason that two applicants should ever be considered equal other than school name. If you want to go to a program and you have the numbers, you do an away rotation, spend a month there and make everybody know and love you. My point is it never comes down to this even in the most competitive specialties. If it does, it wasn't your school that held you back.

 

[Law2Doc]

...
I think the matchlist of Harvard vs. Case western vs. Northeastern ohio school of medicine look QUITE different....

CWRU is in the top 25 schools. Even if we are assuming arguendo that school name makes a difference, if you think there is an appreciable difference between the match lists of places ranked 1 and 23, then I think you are supporting my view that match lists in the hands of a premed is a very dangerous thing. Are you seriously saying that a person's future is going to be hampered because s/he went to Case instead of Harvard? (We'll leave off the third school because I don't know it). Both of these are considered "top schools" and both are fine for someone launching into an academic career. Both have their shares of competitive specialties represented. The only real difference between these programs is that Harvard has a lot more research funding. Which means squat to a PD. They will know and regard both schools highly. If this is the kind of fine line you are drawing then I promise you there is NO difference at all in residency potential from either of these places. None. Nada. Both are good places. Don't make a decision based on this kind of hair splitting.

I would suggest, if you really think these lists are appreciably different, that (1) people are choosing differently than what you personally would consider good specialty choices, and/or (2) you don't know which places are the better programs in each specialty. People choose what they want to do for the next 45 years, and are choosing things somewhat based on geography and family factors as well. So someone who lives in Ohio is probably more likely to pick a residency in Ohio or PA as opposed to a person who lives in Boston, who might be more likely to focus applications in the northeast and NY.

 

[Brent8927]

Hi. I thought I'd weigh in a bit on this debate since I've had a little bit of inside experience--mostly with fellowship applicants, but I worked with our residency program as well.

I was in charge of coordinating fellowship applications for the Department of Ophthalmology at UCSF. Since fellowships are generally less competitive, take what I say with a grain of salt. The program director really didn't care too much about where people came from (though she went to an Ivy Med in case it matters); what she cared about were their test scores, their recommendations and accomplishments, and most importantly, their personality and drive (determined from the interview).

The residency program was similar, though if you completed medical school at UCSF it was obviously a big help since everyone knows you (I second that an away rotation can be a big help).

Graduating from a big-name school always helps, but all it really does is help open some doors--you still have to walk through it. Think about your medical school interviews--your GPA, MCAT, and undergrad school may help you past the initial screen and get an interview, but after that your acceptance is largely determined by who you are and what you can bring to the program.

You're always best off going to a program where you would be happiest, taking curriculum, grading system, type of students/professors in the program, and other things into account. Everyone has an ideal environment where they will thrive, and for some this will be a big-name school with a lot of NIH funding and for others this will be a little school out in the rural boonies.

So go where you will be the happiest! 🙂

 

[Handy388]

CWRU is in the top 25 schools. Even if we are assuming arguendo that school name makes a difference, if you think there is an appreciable difference between the match lists of places ranked 1 and 23, then I think you are supporting my view that match lists in the hands of a premed is a very dangerous thing. Are you seriously saying that a person's future is going to be hampered because s/he went to Case instead of Harvard? (We'll leave off the third school because I don't know it). Both of these are considered "top schools" and both are fine for someone launching into an academic career. Both have their shares of competitive specialties represented. The only real difference between these programs is that Harvard has a lot more research funding. Which means squat to a PD. They will know and regard both schools highly. If this is the kind of fine line you are drawing then I promise you there is NO difference at all in residency potential from either of these places. None. Nada. Both are good places. Don't make a decision based on this kind of hair splitting.

I would suggest, if you really think these lists are appreciably different, that (1) people are choosing differently than what you personally would consider good specialty choices, and/or (2) you don't know which places are the better programs in each specialty. People choose what they want to do for the next 45 years, and are choosing things somewhat based on geography and family factors as well. So someone who lives in Ohio is probably more likely to pick a residency in Ohio or PA as opposed to a person who lives in Boston, who might be more likely to focus applications in the northeast and NY.

Well, Harvard matches a lot of its grad into MGH. What I am trying to say is that there SEEM to be a difference in ULTRA high end.

But then, to me, MGH is not the end all of residencies, I feel that there are WAY more quality residencies than quality med schools.

Think about this, I don't have a specific number on hand, but I am sure that MGH have more residency spots than Harvard's med school class (per year), Cleveland Clinics have more spots than thant CCCLM's class, etc....


What I am saying is that USMD school can all get you to quality residencies. But if you are focused on, say, MGH (I am not), going to harvard might be a better bet than going to CWRU.

 

[Law2Doc]

... But if you are focused on, say, MGH (I am not), going to harvard might be a better bet than going to CWRU.

But bear in mind that your view of what is a good program HAS to be specialty dependent, or it is missing the mark. MGH is great for some things, but not even close to the top program for others. It depends on the specialty. So looking at a match list and counting up the MGH's isn't reading it right. A lot of Harvard people apply to MGH because it's local, and the folks there know them. You can't really know if this was the goal or the fallback. In some specialties where MGH isn't as strong a presence, it could very well be the latter. But it sounds good to premeds because they won't know that the best program in XYZ field is in fact GHK hospital in the middle of the country that they perhaps never heard of, not MGH. (Yes, residencies can work this way). Some of the most prestigious SOUNDING programs (based on med school affiliations) can also be some of the most malignant. There are places that to a premed sound impressive but to the folks in the know, you wouldn't wish the program on your worst enemy. Places always running afoul of the residency hour limitations, places where the residents are treated badly, and where folks get abused. But you can't know this until you have a mentor in the specialty of your choosing, to tell you where all the trouble spots lie. So the proper course is to do a few rotations in third year, pick what you like, get a mentor, and find out what places should be of interest to you. Not try to do this on your own as a premed. And for sure not pick a med school based on some half baked assumption of where you want to end up.