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What is so bad about Carribean schools? And why are they always the last resort?
Carribean Schools?
- Thread starter Bojo
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Why exactly do Carribean schools exist? Do they have academic research programs? Are they part of a hospital or an existing university? They were, for the most part, created to make money off of American students who did not have the academic qualifications to get into a US medical school. Hence, they are "so bad" because they have little to no research and generally send you far and away for your clinical rotations. The students are academic rejects from US med schools, which both ensures a continual cycle of stigma (since the students will always be sub-par) and is due to the original stigma of why the schools were created in the first place.
That being said, if you can't get into a US med school, go there and do well enough to achive suitable USMLE scores, show some clinical competence during your third-year rotations, you can certainly make it back to the US for residency and be a perfectly good physician in the end. The reality is, aside from the significantly greater exposure to research, there isn't much of a difference in the curriculum whereever you go-- med school is basically volume memorization everywhere.
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You know, I'm not sure there will be fireworks. The Carribean guys are mostly pretty honest about why they chose their med school. It's the osteopaths that generally have to B.S. about how it's their desire to view the patient as a whole and the unique philosophy of D.O. school (which apparently does not carry over to the desire to do residency at a D.O. program) rather than their mid 20s MCAT and 3.3 gpa that got them to where they are. I've never heard a Carribean guy say it's the sunny beaches rather than their undergraduate record that made them pick their school.
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63768
your statements are true to a degree. the reason caribbean/out of US schools are so bad is not necessarily because their programs are bad, but because they are a foreign medical school. sure, caribbeans may teach the exact same curriculum as US med schools do, but we and residency selection committees don't necessarily know that. this is why medical school graduates from india or other foreign medical schools have trouble with getting a US residency in off the bat. most of the time they have to do some sort of research or training in the states for at least a year before they can get into a residency.
and this isn't even speaking of competitive residencies, where such discriminant thinking is less discouraged. i personally know a foreign medical graduate from pakistan who wanted to get into a US orthopedic surgery residency. he was rejected the first year, did research the next year, rejected again from ortho, but got into general surg. finally, applying a 3rd time, he was able to get in. the stigma is not only against carribean med schools but foreign med schools in general. the fact that carribean med schools are also associated with the last resort only makes it worse.
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This is a related question. I was just curious if anyone goes to countries besides the carribean to study medicine. Because there are certainly medical schools in Asia and other regions which I am sure would love US medical school rejects 
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This is a related question. I was just curious if anyone goes to countries besides the carribean to study medicine. Because there are certainly medical schools in Asia and other regions which I am sure would love US medical school rejects
Be careful using the term "US medical school rejects" --- just shows your bias and uneducated.
and yes, there are hundreds of school throughout Asia, Europe, South America, and probably even Africa that have American students at them.
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The only thing I've got to add is that I visited a Caribbean medical school once, before I knew that they weren't really us equivalents, and I found out right away from my visit there. If you're considering caribbean, I'd spend the money to take a nice trip to wherever you're considering going and take a tour of the school to see what it's like. Knowing that that school is my alternative...as nice as my lifestyle on the island could be, i think i'd reapply before attending there based on their facilities and such
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=121297
this is one of many heated debates. Very entertaining.
this is one of many heated debates. Very entertaining.
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The carribeans were developed for those who can't get into schools in the states, and this is the population where they still get most of their students. Their reputation stems from this idea of being a 'second chance' school.
As for foreign medical schools, from what I know, it's not too hard for US citizens to go to a foreign medical school and come back to get a residency as long as it's a recognized foreign medical school, you have passable board scores and can speak english, you can probably match into a residency.
And yes, plenty go to Ireland, UK, Phillipines, India and Eastern Europe to do their med school if they can't get in here and don't want to go carribean. Many have come back to do residencies. One of the girls I met at a party with my parents' friends' house was doing that: a six year program in China geared for US high school students, she comes back in four years to do her clinicals. At least one of the guys at the party was so impressed with it that he decided to introduce me to to her so he could tell me how I'm 'wasting' my time at the US what with my US MD which takes four years of post undergrad work.
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While lots of US citizens who go to school offshore get residency spots, generally they don't have nearly as much choice in terms of residency (specialty or location) as someone trained stateside, and will have to score quite solidly on Step 1 just to get a spot. I think it is undisputed that most such foreign paths make things harder, if the goal is to practice in the US.
The key factor to focus on is always the level of attrition, which at most offshore schools is enormous compared to US counterparts. Many of the schools who boast high placement or Step 1 passage rates do so by weeding out and decelerating all the folks likely to lower these statistics.
I would also note that US allo med schools have recently begun a program of increasing their class sizes, a trend that will continue over the next decade, and a number of new schools are slated to be opened. To date no corresponding increase in residency slots or funding has occurred. Guess who will likely feel the squeeze if this isn't remedied.
The key factor to focus on is always the level of attrition, which at most offshore schools is enormous compared to US counterparts. Many of the schools who boast high placement or Step 1 passage rates do so by weeding out and decelerating all the folks likely to lower these statistics.
I would also note that US allo med schools have recently begun a program of increasing their class sizes, a trend that will continue over the next decade, and a number of new schools are slated to be opened. To date no corresponding increase in residency slots or funding has occurred. Guess who will likely feel the squeeze if this isn't remedied.
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RDood
Alright then, I'll say it.
The Caribbean is a place where people who have no business being doctors go because they can't deal with the reality that their dream is not actually going to happen.
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ouch
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Perhaps you should replace "is not actually going to happen" with "really should not be happening."
Just as a personal aside, whenever I'm looking for a physician the first thing I research is the medical school they attended. Foreign schools are an immediate alarm bell for me to keep looking.
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As long as a person is a confident doctor, how does it matter where they went to f****** medical school.
My mother, when she slipped a disc at work, her orthopod went to medical school in india and he is one of the most sought after spinal surgeons in the country. It is possible and is usually the case that medical school graduates reguardless of where they attended are competent to provide care otherwise they wouldn't have graduated.
My mother, when she slipped a disc at work, her orthopod went to medical school in india and he is one of the most sought after spinal surgeons in the country. It is possible and is usually the case that medical school graduates reguardless of where they attended are competent to provide care otherwise they wouldn't have graduated.
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RDood
As long as a person is a confident doctor, how does it matter where they went to f****** medical school.
My mother, when she slipped a disc at work, her orthopod went to medical school in inda and he is one of the most sought after spinal surgeons in the country. It is possible and is usually the case that medical school graduates reguardless of where they attended are competent to provide care otherwise they wouldn't have graduated.
Indiana or India? I can't tell? And let's just say right now that the Caribbean is no India. As has been previously addressed, Caribbean med schools were created for pre-meds who couldn't cut it (same mission as many post-bac programs). I'd say it matters, as I'd rather go to a doctor who could actually get through college level math, or didn't just party his way through school. Face it, undergrad GPA and MCAT scores have a bearing on what type of student you are, your mental capacity, and later on where you'll get into medical school.
And I think the only thing worse than a doctor who can't really cut it is a "confident" doc who can't really cut it. If one doesn't know their weaknesses, how will they improve on them?
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india isn't the same as caribbean. barely anyone from the US would use a med school in india as a last resort. it's not the same situation. i know plenty of indian doctors who are awesome. can't say i've met any caribbean orthopods.As long as a person is a confident doctor, how does it matter where they went to f****** medical school.
My mother, when she slipped a disc at work, her orthopod went to medical school in inda and he is one of the most sought after spinal surgeons in the country. It is possible and is usually the case that medical school graduates reguardless of where they attended are competent to provide care otherwise they wouldn't have graduated.
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I have noticed this as well. Why do all the DO peeps keep saying they love the DO philosophy instead of that they love the fact that they can get into a school with a 25 mcat?
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RDood
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I think MD schools could learn a few things from DO schools and if all things were truly equal after graduation, I would have applied to DO schools a long time ago. So if I happen to wind up at a DO school this round, they can have my 3.5, 32 MCAT and I'll be just peachy.
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I've read a few of these on some old threads. They want "the experience of living on the islands."
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You're better off looking at their residency. Every physician in the US regardless of what medical school they went to must complete a US-based residency (some exceptions for canadian training exist, i believe). You learn your actual specialty during residency... med school is just the basics. That's why its called "undergraduate" medical education and residency is refered to as GME or "Graduate Medical Education."
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2 Ross university students got Orthopedics surgery residency in 2005!
What wrong with you guys? It not a matter of school, go there get 90s on your USMLE and get into any residency that you like and then laugh at these people are just demonstrating gut feelings!
What wrong with you guys? It not a matter of school, go there get 90s on your USMLE and get into any residency that you like and then laugh at these people are just demonstrating gut feelings!
fact is, even with high board scores, caribbean students wouldn't be as competitive as their US counterparts.
They spend 6 months to prep versus 1 month here.
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You need to look at how many people actually started with them in their entering class, and how many years it took them to make it thru, to see if 2 ortho matches are good, or a very low percentage. And where the residencies are located is relevant too --there are competitive residencies in less desirable parts of the country.
As for USMLE, getting 90s would be pretty bad considering passing is around 182...
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What? What rubbish. Everyone knows that once you finish med school - you don't know jack about being a physician. Real training starts during residency - so don't tell me your med school carries weight. Bottom line is that the medical profession and the admissions process attracts the kinds of people who like to keep their noises high and look down on others when in fact - someone from a carribean school can make a perfectly competent physician. From premed all the way to the CEO - attitudes never change it seems - man, these debates are the result of the same thing and reveals exactly why we all want to become doctors.
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So, they let in tons of students with a wide range (very low to very high) stats and throw in a island so different from home with other unexpected conditions.
It makes sense that some students will flunk out and others will leave cuz they cannot adjust to the environment. The schools are privately owned and the whole point is to make a profit so they take as many people as thy can.
This should not be seen as all negative though. So they want your money and u want an MD degree. It's a business transaction that will get you where u want to be.
Caribbean schools are not all the same though. Some have been there for decades and some were started a couple of years ago. Students who are interested in attending have to do tons of research (a school that does not req the MCAT? Run!) and visit schools before they attend esp if you have never lived-in/visited less developed countries.
It's not cut and dry. Going to a carib school does not doom u forever. You can be very successful (I personally know several) but be prepared to work hard. But you can also waste your money if you are not mentally ready for the challenge. There's a whole lot of gray in between just as in US schools. Residencies in "less desireable areas" are not filled with just carib students u know.
Also, try to contact graduates of these school. Find out where they are now. Many are willing to tell you their story.
Ok I'll stop blabbing now.
Good luck to anyone trying to make the decision of whether or not to leave for the islands.
ps sorry for any typos
It makes sense that some students will flunk out and others will leave cuz they cannot adjust to the environment. The schools are privately owned and the whole point is to make a profit so they take as many people as thy can.
This should not be seen as all negative though. So they want your money and u want an MD degree. It's a business transaction that will get you where u want to be.
Caribbean schools are not all the same though. Some have been there for decades and some were started a couple of years ago. Students who are interested in attending have to do tons of research (a school that does not req the MCAT? Run!) and visit schools before they attend esp if you have never lived-in/visited less developed countries.
It's not cut and dry. Going to a carib school does not doom u forever. You can be very successful (I personally know several) but be prepared to work hard. But you can also waste your money if you are not mentally ready for the challenge. There's a whole lot of gray in between just as in US schools. Residencies in "less desireable areas" are not filled with just carib students u know.
Also, try to contact graduates of these school. Find out where they are now. Many are willing to tell you their story.
Ok I'll stop blabbing now.
Good luck to anyone trying to make the decision of whether or not to leave for the islands.
ps sorry for any typos
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You need to look at how many people actually started with them in their entering class, and how many years it took them to make it thru, to see if 2 ortho matches are good, or a very low percentage. And where the residencies are located is relevant too --there are competitive residencies in less desirable parts of the country.
As for USMLE, getting 90s would be pretty bad considering passing is around 182...
Then you need to learn your books and realzie that there are 2 grades, a 2 digit and a 3 digit! 90 on digit is equivalent to 240+ my friend!
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There are two scores, but pretty much everyone uses the three digit score when indicating what they get.
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A 99 is close to a 245.... a 90 is way lower. The 2 digit scores are NOT percentiles as the USMLE did away with those awhile ago.
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RDood
Rubbish? Sounds like the words of someone with lackluster scores on their umpteenth application cycle speaking. I don't know about my "noise" but my nose is kept humbly down through this process - I'm interested in rural med, underserved med, or missions med (just look at the schools I'm applying to).
Can a Caribbean doc make a good doctor? Anecdotally, of course. But most of this talk (and the concerns of an adcom) is not in anecdotal evidence, but in trends. Let's face it: an applicant with a a higher GPA and MCAT is likely to be more capable of handling med school, will get into a better med school, will do better on Boards, get a better residency, and eventually become a more informed, better practiced, and more talented physician.
Do all Caribbean docs make horrible physicians? Of course not, but all signs would suggest that they are less likely to be leaders in the field.
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Uh.... have you even taken Step 1 yet? I have and got a 99 with a lower score than 260. The range of scores goes all the way to 288 according to the score reports.
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While I'm not a big proponent of the carribean, I think it's a pretty big leap to go from higher college numerical stats to "more talented physician". The studies on pubmed that suggest correlation between numerical stats and performance show that the correlation is not exactly staggering or all encompassing, and you will come across an enormous number of folks who don't fit the data suggested by those studies. There will be many talented physicians who were carribean educated and many lousy ones who went to good US allo schools. The real differences are going to be opportunities.
You will learn that as good a college GPA you had and as high an MCAT as you may have had, it all really means nothing once you get to med school. You show up with a blank slate, knowing nothing, and are expected to prove yourself every step of the way -- in school, on the boards, in the wards. Nothing that happened before has much to do with how talented a physician you will be, I'm afraid -- basically everything you have done up to that point will be ancient history -- and you will see some people you didn't expect excell and some you thought were top notch flounder. Talent is not something anyone has yet figured out how to comprehensively test. It's like obscenity-- you know it when you see it.
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RDood
Precisely about the clean slate, but the truth is that a good undergrad will get you into a good med school which will get you into a good residency which will get you into a good attending position. Do people make or break this pattern? Absolutely, but let's go with trends here. History is indeed history, but it still has a bearing on the present in how one arrives there. For example, I look back at middle school and wish I hadn't tried as hard, but realize that middle school got me into more advanced track classes in High School, which helped out for application to Undergrad. Did undergrad institutions care about middle school grades? Of course not, but they still had an effect.
I for one, find it somewhat depressing that there are few "rags to riches" stories, if you will, of people starting at a community college and ending up at Harvard. It's not a perfect system but that's the way it is.
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There are more than you'd think from reading SDN. There are also tales of carribean educated folks who overcome the cards stacked against them. I wouldn't bet my own future on this path, but certainly applaud those who manage to make good. It's like watching an exciting come from behind win.
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I don't know but would tend to doubt it.
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RDood
I'm sure if you did Army, you'd be a shoe in into the Armed Services Medical school. Don't quote me on it though.
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Maybe because 3/4 of SDNers haven't figured out how to spell "Caribbean" properly?
C-a-R-i-B-B-ean, geniuses. One R, two B's.
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Maybe because 3/4 of SDNers haven't figured out how to spell "Caribbean" properly?
C-a-R-i-B-B-ean, geniuses. One R, two B's.
You only need to know how to spell it if you plan to go there.
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I don't think that's a requirement....You only need to know how to spell it if you plan to go there.
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No. They only pay for U.S. med schools. No Canada and no Puerto Rico and definitely no Caribbean.
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Actually at a couple of the less reputable places that seems to be the only requirement.
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RDood
Actually at a couple of the less reputable places that seems to be the only requirement.
Rdood, what would you do if you didn't have a 38 MCAT?
