carribean vs. foreign school

[san2]

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My nephew unfortunately had a rough time in college in terms of grades and many misfortunes and his GPA tanked to about a 3.27. He is graduating with a double major in chemical engineering and philosophy. He is actually ecstatic coming out with that GPA in such a hard major, given all the personal and social difficulties he had endured in college. His MCAT he got a 34. He

He applied, knowing his chances are very slim with the abysmal GPA to just his local instate allopathic schools, just hoping to squeek in possibly. He did not apply to any other schools to save money and he knew he had no shot getting in. He was waitlisted at one of his schools, and just yesterday he got the official rejection. He did not apply to any osteopathic schools.

People have told him to do the University of Cincinatti Masters Program to which he has been admitted, but he decided he wants to go directly into medical school and turned it down.

All he has left now is SGU and Ben Gurion University in collaboration with Columbia University. He is leaning much more towards BGU, as admission standards are much more competitive than SGU and students on average have a GPA of 3.4 and an MCAT of 30. The fact that it has extensive collaborations with Columbia University also he finds appealling. And just this past year, they had a 100% match rate. And the attrition rate is nonexistent.

BUT one difference is that SGU has clinical rotations in the US, while Ben Gurion does not and has all rotations in Israeli hospitals. A graduate from this program can be licensed to practice medicine in Israel if he wishes to do so.

In terms of education, faculty, students, and environment Ben Gurion is clearly a winner as compared to SGU. Only thing is that SGU has clinical rotations in the US 3rd and 4th year. Is it worth going to SGU just to be able to get US clinical rotations. Both i and my nephew know its very important, but is it that important that it is worth bypassing a far better school (Ben Gurion) for SGU? Also he saw that there are observerships possible in the US at top institutions which can be done if you pay a hefty price. can that suffice? thanks.

 

[moneytree]

BGU is a legit program, but graduates are still considered IMGs. With his stats, he's pretty much a lock for US DO schools. If his goal is to practice in the US, they would be a better option than either SGU or BGU.

 

[SpaceHamsterBoo]

My nephew unfortunately had a rough time in college in terms of grades and many misfortunes and his GPA tanked to about a 3.27. He is graduating with a double major in chemical engineering and philosophy. He is actually ecstatic coming out with that GPA in such a hard major, given all the personal and social difficulties he had endured in college. His MCAT he got a 34. He

He applied, knowing his chances are very slim with the abysmal GPA to just his local instate allopathic schools, just hoping to squeek in possibly. He did not apply to any other schools to save money and he knew he had no shot getting in. He was waitlisted at one of his schools, and just yesterday he got the official rejection. He did not apply to any osteopathic schools.

People have told him to do the University of Cincinatti Masters Program to which he has been admitted, but he decided he wants to go directly into medical school and turned it down.

All he has left now is SGU and Ben Gurion University in collaboration with Columbia University. He is leaning much more towards BGU, as admission standards are much more competitive than SGU and students on average have a GPA of 3.4 and an MCAT of 30. The fact that it has extensive collaborations with Columbia University also he finds appealling. And just this past year, they had a 100% match rate. And the attrition rate is nonexistent.

BUT one difference is that SGU has clinical rotations in the US, while Ben Gurion does not and has all rotations in Israeli hospitals. A graduate from this program can be licensed to practice medicine in Israel if he wishes to do so.

In terms of education, faculty, students, and environment Ben Gurion is clearly a winner as compared to SGU. Only thing is that SGU has clinical rotations in the US 3rd and 4th year. Is it worth going to SGU just to be able to get US clinical rotations. Both i and my nephew know its very important, but is it that important that it is worth bypassing a far better school (Ben Gurion) for SGU? Also he saw that there are observerships possible in the US at top institutions which can be done if you pay a hefty price. can that suffice? thanks.

1. Why did he not apply to more schools?
2. **** the fictional territory known as israel.
3. Post bacc program/improve ecs/hold down a job

 

[san2]

1. Why did he not apply to more schools?
2. **** the fictional territory known as israel.
3. Post bacc program/improve ecs/hold down a job

to write essays, pay supplemental fees, wait- all with a GPA of 3.27 is not worth it. and I agreed with him on that one. chances of getting with that GPA to any schools out-of-state are virtually zero.

Israel is quite safe. Especially where BGU is.

He only applied to Ucinci masters program, because a distant friend of his did that program and got into Ucinci for med school and recommended it. But he never was or is keen on doing a masters program

The only thing is how important is the fact that SGU has clinical rotations in the US, and that BGU doesnt, despite BGU having a much higher standard of admissions and much more competitive student body with far better faculty and experience

 

[Ansar]

Just re-apply, and include some DO schools.

 

[san2]

Just re-apply, and include some DO schools.

He does not want to go the DO route. I kinda wanted to avoid saying this as it is a topic which many people get sensitive about, but he wants to go the allopathic route.

To throw in some more info, but this is all i can disclose now, is that his BCPM is at about a 3.4. While he got all A's in General Biology, Physics, Calculus, Orgo, and Chem, beyond Calc I, he got ton of B-'s in the higher level calculus courses. That, engineering courses, and some impossible philosophy classes he claims are tanking his GPA. Other than the minimal prerequisites, he hasnt done any advanced upper science level courses. The fact that he is coming in with minimal med school preparation, is one big reason but not the only reason, he is avoiding the Cinci masters program

 

[SpaceHamsterBoo]

to write essays, pay supplemental fees, wait- all with a GPA of 3.27 is not worth it. and I agreed with him on that one. chances of getting with that GPA to any schools out-of-state are virtually zero.

Israel is quite safe. Especially where BGU is.

He only applied to Ucinci masters program, because a distant friend of his did that program and got into Ucinci for med school and recommended it. But he never was or is keen on doing a masters program

The only thing is how important is the fact that SGU has clinical rotations in the US, and that BGU doesnt, despite BGU having a much higher standard of admissions and much more competitive student body with far better faculty and experience

No, I'm not concerned about the safety of the false territory, I just meant in general. **** israel, the politics, their leaders, the people, their false notion of entitlement, and the way they think it's okay to treat people the same way Hitler treated them in the holocaust.

 

[anonperson]

So your nephew was trying to save money by just applying to a few allopathic schools and is now willing to spends tens of thousands of dollars on tuition for foreign medical schools?

Honestly, he should use his efforts to get into a US medical school. Preferably allopathic but even osteopathic. Going the foreign route can get you into trouble.

 

[serendipity007]

He does not want to go the DO route. I kinda wanted to avoid saying this as it is a topic which many people get sensitive about, but he wants to go the allopathic route.

To throw in some more info, but this is all i can disclose now, is that his BCPM is at about a 3.4. While he got all A's in General Biology, Physics, Calculus, Orgo, and Chem, beyond Calc I, he got ton of B-'s in the higher level calculus courses. That, engineering courses, and some impossible philosophy classes he claims are tanking his GPA. Other than the minimal prerequisites, he hasnt done any advanced upper science level courses. The fact that he is coming in with minimal med school preparation, is one big reason but not the only reason, he is avoiding the Cinci masters program

He doesn't want to do DO? Fair enough. However, SGU is a no-no if he wants to practice in the US. It's a never-ending struggle that he will most likely regret getting into later. As for Ben Gurion, it sounds like a cool program but if he wants to practice in the US, that is not the best route either.

Think about it: he wants to practice in the US. He wants to go to a US MD school. Thus, he needs to go to a US MD school. It's simple as that. I honestly would have suggested applying with a wider application pool (are you seriously going to bring in $ into this process? you're making the biggest decision/investment of your life. $1-3K doesn't matter at this point). Nevertheless, he has applied once and been rejected already. I would suggest doing the Cincinnati Master's program. Do really well in his classes. Pad up his extracurriculars. Apply broadly. Just my 2cents! Best of luck!

 

[serendipity007]

No, I'm not concerned about the safety of the false territory, I just meant in general. **** israel, the politics, their leaders, the people, their false notion of entitlement, and the way they think it's okay to treat people the same way Hitler treated them in the holocaust.

Ah let's not get into politics please. That has nothing to do with the OP's question. I am not the biggest fan of the region's politics either, but your point is irrelevant.

 

[startswithb]

He does not want to go the DO route. I kinda wanted to avoid saying this as it is a topic which many people get sensitive about, but he wants to go the allopathic route.

To throw in some more info, but this is all i can disclose now, is that his BCPM is at about a 3.4. While he got all A's in General Biology, Physics, Calculus, Orgo, and Chem, beyond Calc I, he got ton of B-'s in the higher level calculus courses. That, engineering courses, and some impossible philosophy classes he claims are tanking his GPA. Other than the minimal prerequisites, he hasnt done any advanced upper science level courses. The fact that he is coming in with minimal med school preparation, is one big reason but not the only reason, he is avoiding the Cinci masters program

I don't understand this; the masters program should prepare him more for med school. If you can't handle this masters program, you might not be able to handle med school at all. Kind of the point.

Also, he is being WAY too picky for his situation. Why is he denying his most realistic and most beneficial options? Too picky and too shortsighted. Besides just thinking about what he wants NOW, he needs to think about what he wants in the FUTURE. Foreign programs can close a lot of doors. Turning down the Cinci program was a mistake. I am doing well in med school and I got waitlisted by that program!

 

[san2]

I don't understand this; the masters program should prepare him more for med school. If you can't handle this masters program, you might not be able to handle med school at all. Kind of the point.

Also, he is being WAY too picky for his situation. Why is he denying his most realistic and most beneficial options? Too picky and too shortsighted. Besides just thinking about what he wants NOW, he needs to think about what he wants in the FUTURE. Foreign programs can close a lot of doors. Turning down the Cinci program was a mistake. I am doing well in med school and I got waitlisted by that program!

The thing with the masters program, is if you get even a single C in one course (which is equivalent to a Pass in med school), there is a high chance you wont get in. And its just a constant stress about whether knowing after all the hard work whether it will lead to anything. Add in that writing essays, and interviewing at other schools while balancing a rigourous competitive masters curriculum, he just didnt want to go through that. and he wants to go to med school this fall, and go on with life.

 

[Sheldor]

So your nephew was trying to save money by just applying to a few allopathic schools and is now willing to spends tens of thousands of dollars on tuition for foreign medical schools?

Honestly, he should use his efforts to get into a US medical school. Preferably allopathic but even osteopathic. Going the foreign route can get you into trouble.

Agreed. Be patient, and reapply this coming year for every non top tier school in the US. If he was wait listed at one school and only applied to a few, chances are high that if he applied broadly he'd get in somewhere.

The worst thing he can do for his career is be impatient and jump to a foreign school just because he doesn't want to take an extra year to strengthen his application and reapply. Those foreign schools will still be there and can be used as a true back up!

 

[serendipity007]

I don't understand this; the masters program should prepare him more for med school. If you can't handle this masters program, you might not be able to handle med school at all. Kind of the point.

Also, he is being WAY too picky for his situation. Why is he denying his most realistic and most beneficial options? Too picky and too shortsighted. Besides just thinking about what he wants NOW, he needs to think about what he wants in the FUTURE. Foreign programs can close a lot of doors. Turning down the Cinci program was a mistake. I am doing well in med school and I got waitlisted by that program!

Agreed 👍

The thing with the masters program, is if you get even a single C in one course (which is equivalent to a Pass in med school), there is a high chance you wont get in. And its just a constant stress about whether knowing after all the hard work whether it will lead to anything. Add in that writing essays, and interviewing at other schools while balancing a rigourous competitive masters curriculum, he just didnt want to go through that. and he wants to go to med school this fall, and go on with life.

I would argue that the first bolded statement applies to many other pre-meds too. You put in the hard work, but you don't know if the application process will be in your favor or not. He is not in a unique situation. Second bolded statement: don't we all? Life is tough and things don't always work out the way we want them to be. If he really wants to go to med school, he will have to go through a rigorous process just like everyone.

 

[VisionaryTics]

The thing with the masters program, is if you get even a single C in one course (which is equivalent to a Pass in med school), there is a high chance you wont get in. And its just a constant stress about whether knowing after all the hard work whether it will lead to anything. Add in that writing essays, and interviewing at other schools while balancing a rigourous competitive masters curriculum, he just didnt want to go through that. and he wants to go to med school this fall, and go on with life.

Yes, I fondly remember that bright spring day in 2010 that I got into medical school as the last time I ever stressed about anything ever again. Now I can simply go on with my life.

Tell your nephew to sack up and kick ass at a masters program. He's taking the "easy" route now, but he's going to hate himself when he's scrambling for a prison medicine residency in Whitefrost, Alaska four years from now.

-edit- also kaplan

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

He does not want to go the DO route. I kinda wanted to avoid saying this as it is a topic which many people get sensitive about, but he wants to go the allopathic route.

To throw in some more info, but this is all i can disclose now, is that his BCPM is at about a 3.4. While he got all A's in General Biology, Physics, Calculus, Orgo, and Chem, beyond Calc I, he got ton of B-'s in the higher level calculus courses. That, engineering courses, and some impossible philosophy classes he claims are tanking his GPA. Other than the minimal prerequisites, he hasnt done any advanced upper science level courses. The fact that he is coming in with minimal med school preparation, is one big reason but not the only reason, he is avoiding the Cinci masters program

I know you didn't want to bring it up but you need to HIGHLY encourage him to go the DO route. Getting a DO is vastly better and has much better residency prospects than going to any offshore MD school. He'll also benefit from grade replacement with DO schools which could boost his GPA tremendously depending on what he takes in a post-bacc/masters program or if he just tried to retake those calc classes at whatever university is affiliated with the post-bacc program. His MCAT will make him a shoe-in for DO schools if he can get that GPA up a few points. At the very least, apply to both after the masters/post-bacc.

I've known people like that who didn't want to go the DO route but had low GPAs that would screen them out of most MD schools immediately. Some of them still aren't in medical school.

Seriously, in no way is going to an offshore medical school better than going to a DO school. That needs to get pounded in his head. He needs to hold off at least a year and re-evaluate what his plan is.

 

[san2]

thanks for all your replies, but we are straying off the original question.

Does having clinical rotations in the US for SGU students make SGU a clear better option than BGU, despite BGU having far higher admission standards, nonexistent attrition rate, world class faculty, living in Israel > Grenada, and being able to practice in Israel. Also BGU had a 100% match rate, this past match. How important are us clinical rotations? Can observerships in internal medicine in the US count for US clinical experience?

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

thanks for all your replies, but we are straying off the original question.

Does having clinical rotations in the US for SGU students make SGU a clear better option than BGU, despite BGU having far higher admission standards, nonexistent attrition rate, world class faculty, living in Israel > Grenada, and being able to practice in Israel. Also BGU had a 100% match rate, this past match. How important are us clinical rotations? Can observerships in internal medicine in the US count for US clinical experience?

I'm gonna say that probably no one here has had direct experience with either of these schools (although I think there's one guy that goes to SGU somewhere) so I don't know how many high quality responses you're going to get to the original question. From the match list, it looks like you'll probably match somewhere in the US from BGU but the list is very IM, FM, and peds heavy with a couple Gen Surg, EM or Ob/Gyn thrown in every year...so hopefully he'd be happy in those fields. Of course, as an IMG your best bet is FM, peds and IM anyway so that would probably be the case at either school.

Note: It's not always appropriate to look at match lists this way but that's the trend based on the last few match years at BGU so I would expect that to hold true in the future.

 

[qwerty2012]

I agree with those stress factors. But i feel it is extremely short sighted to not at least try to get into a US md with some struggle. Everyone worked hard to get in. Some more than others while doing it maybe more efficiently and with purpose while in undergrad.

Your friend sound like a smart person and the high MCAT shows it. Some people can work hard but maybe lacks somewhere else. He wants to practice in the states. Then he needs to make another push by showing that he is able to do courses with high marks.

A master is the perfect way to go.

 

[Praefectus]

He should NOT go to a program where he'll be labeled as an IMG during residency applications. A DO school has much better prospects than Caribbean schools have. If he could still do the Masters program, tell him to do that!

 

[san2]

BGU is not a carribean school. Its a school in Israel with extensive collaborations with Columbia Medical School.

 

[moneytree]

BGU is not a carribean school. Its a school in Israel with extensive collaborations with Columbia Medical School.

Still an IMG. And the degree comes from BGU, not Columbia. It's more similar to a Caribbean school than a US MD school.

 

[smq123]

Not a general residency topic. Moving to pre-allo.

 

[startswithb]

Yes, I fondly remember that bright spring day in 2010 that I got into medical school as the last time I ever stressed about anything ever again. Now I can simply go on with my life.

Tell your nephew to sack up and kick ass at a masters program. He's taking the "easy" route now, but he's going to hate himself when he's scrambling for a prison medicine residency in Whitefrost, Alaska four years from now.

-edit- also kaplan

Lol, exactly this. 👍

Sounds like you/him are trying to turn this situation into what you want it to be. It's an IMG/FMG program either way which is characteristically not good for residency prospects. I waited two years to get accepted to my MD program. I have no regrets. No time was "wasted." I got where I wanted to be. And thank goodness, because I am falling for some competitive fields. In terms of wasting year, he could go FMG now and not match and have to do a year of research or an MPH, or multiple internships just to get into a decent residency. I mean, come on. Your friend must be very young to be having this kind of dilemma.

 

[circulus vitios]

He does not want to go the DO route. I kinda wanted to avoid saying this as it is a topic which many people get sensitive about, but he wants to go the allopathic route.

DO and easily practice medicine the US, or offshore MD school and fight an uphill battle to secure any residency slot in the US. What a tough choice. Your nephew is a complete *****.

 

[ES2]

He does not want to go the DO route. I kinda wanted to avoid saying this as it is a topic which many people get sensitive about, but he wants to go the allopathic route.

To throw in some more info, but this is all i can disclose now, is that his BCPM is at about a 3.4. While he got all A's in General Biology, Physics, Calculus, Orgo, and Chem, beyond Calc I, he got ton of B-'s in the higher level calculus courses. That, engineering courses, and some impossible philosophy classes he claims are tanking his GPA. Other than the minimal prerequisites, he hasnt done any advanced upper science level courses. The fact that he is coming in with minimal med school preparation, is one big reason but not the only reason, he is avoiding the Cinci masters program

I don't understand why people want to be go to medical school but not "DO" school. They're the same thing. Except it says D.O. by your name. It doesn't matter where you go to medical school if its in the United States, and furthermore, a 3.27 and a 34 will still put you in a lower competitive range for some allopathic schools--just not the best ones.

 

[Ravizzle]

I don't understand why people want to be go to medical school but not "DO" school. They're the same thing. Except it says D.O. by your name. It doesn't matter where you go to medical school if its in the United States, and furthermore, a 3.27 and a 34 will still put you in a lower competitive range for some allopathic schools--just not the best ones.

+1

Sent from my Galaxy S2 via tapatalk

 

[OCDOCDOCD]

DO and easily practice medicine the US, or offshore MD school and fight an unphill battle to secure any residency slot in the US. What a tough choice. Your nephew is a complete *****.

Of course it's a tough choice. Have you ever seen a doctor on Grey's Anatomy or House or Scrubs who had a DO? And it was "Doogie Howser, MD", not "Doogie Howser, DO". So as TV has taught us, only MDs are real doctors, so of course any MD is better than a DO. Even if he never gets a job and gets saddled with heavy debt that he'll never be able to repay, at least he'll have the prestige of his foreign MD that gets little respect in the US, and surely that's a better life than having to live with a DO and a successful career as a practicing physician.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

1. Why did he not apply to more schools?
2. **** the fictional territory known as israel.
3. Post bacc program/improve ecs/hold down a job

people who need to ask what a committee letter is need to stfu for a solid year

BGU is not a carribean school. Its a school in Israel with extensive collaborations with Columbia Medical School.

there is no Columbia Medical School

 

[Ravizzle]

people who need to ask what a committee letter is need to stfu for a solid year

FYI not every school has a committee letter (mine doesn't), so that may be why he didn't know.

Sent from my Galaxy S2 via tapatalk

 

[RogueUnicorn]

FYI not every school has a committee letter (mine doesn't), so that may be why he didn't know.

Sent from my Galaxy S2 via tapatalk

it's ok to not know. it's not ok for a presumed underclassman to give really any kind of advice regarding applications

 

[Ravizzle]

it's ok to not know. it's not ok for a presumed underclassman to give really any kind of advice regarding applications

I agree. Especially annoyed by them high school kids tryna give ppl advice.

Sent from my Galaxy S2 via tapatalk

 

[Jamie561]

OP I hope your realize that comparing SGU vs BGU here is like asking a college professor whether attending DeVry or University of Phoenix is a better career move.

Imo, bucket of **** vs pile of ****. Take your pick.

Also, there are no easy roads to becoming a doctor. What's a couple of years worth now when it's your nephew's whole career we're talking about?

Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using Tapatalk

 

[san2]

OP I hope your realize that comparing SGU vs BGU here is like asking a college professor whether attending DeVry or University of Phoenix is a better career move.

Imo, bucket of **** vs pile of ****. Take your pick.

Also, there are no easy roads to becoming a doctor. What's a couple of years worth now when it's your nephew's whole career we're talking about?

Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using Tapatalk

I guess than all DO schools are a pile of **** also. since BGU has an admission average MCAT of 30, and average GPA of 3.5. I mean thats not competitive at all. Guess to not be a pile of cr*p, schools need an average of 3.9 and a 42 on their MCAT

http://www.cumc.columbia.edu/dept/bgcu-md/ps/student_profile.html

 

[VisionaryTics]

I guess than all DO schools are a pile of **** also. since BGU has an admission average MCAT of 30, and average GPA of 3.5. I mean thats not competitive at all. Guess to not be a pile of cr*p, schools need an average of 3.9 and a 42 on their MCAT

http://www.cumc.columbia.edu/dept/bgcu-md/ps/student_profile.html

If MCAT scores and GPA mattered when applying to residencies, you would be right. As it stands, they don't. The fact is that your nephew will be an FMG with no US clinical experience. Yeah, great place to be in.

Look at the match list for BGU. It's mostly family med, psych, and medicine at mostly community programs. My allopathic school has a similar MCAT/GPA average. Here's the match list. Make your own conclusions.

 

[san2]

If MCAT scores and GPA mattered when applying to residencies, you would be right. As it stands, they don't. The fact is that your nephew will be an FMG with no US clinical experience. Yeah, great place to be in.

Look at the match list for BGU. It's mostly family med, psych, and medicine at mostly community programs. My allopathic school has a similar MCAT/GPA average. Here's the match list. Make your own conclusions.

We are straying off the question. I encouraged him to go to BGU because of the competitiveness to get in, and it opens doors if ever he wants to practice medicine in Israel. And yes obviously, UIC will have a better match list than BGU, but sometimes students, like my nephew, cant get into allopathic US schools.

My original question again. Is it worth going to SGU over BGU just because SGU has US clinical rotations and BGU does not? SGU MCAT is like a 26 and GPA is like a 3.3. Far less competitive student body than BGU. Also all the faculty hold joint appointments at Columbia Medical Center. He has decided, and Im supporting him, of not going the masters route or the osteopathic route, and now for him to focus on doing well at BGU and doing well on Step 1. I think with these two combinations, I really cannot see him struggling to get a residency in the US. And he is aiming for IM anyways, so thats not to difficult either.

The only thing I want to know is how important is having US rotations, and can several observerships compensate slightly for the damage if it is a big problem?

 

[LucidSplash]

I guess than all DO schools are a pile of **** also. since BGU has an admission average MCAT of 30, and average GPA of 3.5. I mean thats not competitive at all. Guess to not be a pile of cr*p, schools need an average of 3.9 and a 42 on their MCAT

http://www.cumc.columbia.edu/dept/bgcu-md/ps/student_profile.html

You are missing the point that people here are trying to make. There are a fixed number of residency spots in the US and someone from ANY FMG/IMG medical school (including the two you have mentioned) is at a much bigger disadvantage for matching into a residency spot than a DO. If your nephew is concerned with "status," I will tell you that no matter your opinion on the subject, but in most cases the general perception is that FMG/IMG is inferior to US DO. That will be how he is perceived during the residency application process, period, regardless of the quality of his application. Please listen to the advice in this thread, as they are trying to tell you how things ARE, however different you might wish them to be. NEITHER SGU or BGU is as good an option in the long-term as a US DO school. Otherwise, SGU = BGU for all the things that really matter for a career in medicine in the US.

 

[LucidSplash]

My original question again. Is it worth going to SGU over BGU just because SGU has US clinical rotations and BGU does not?

Ok, the answer to this question is "it doesn't really matter, go to whichever school he likes better, the end result will be the same."

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

We are straying off the question. I encouraged him to go to BGU because of the competitiveness to get in, and it opens doors if ever he wants to practice medicine in Israel. And yes obviously, UIC will have a better match list than BGU, but sometimes students, like my nephew, cant get into allopathic US schools.

My original question again. Is it worth going to SGU over BGU just because SGU has US clinical rotations and BGU does not? SGU MCAT is like a 26 and GPA is like a 3.3. Far less competitive student body than BGU. Also all the faculty hold joint appointments at Columbia Medical Center. He has decided, and Im supporting him, of not going the masters route or the osteopathic route, and now for him to focus on doing well at BGU and doing well on Step 1. I think with these two combinations, I really cannot see him struggling to get a residency in the US. And he is aiming for IM anyways, so thats not to difficult either.

The only thing I want to know is how important is having US rotations, and can several observerships compensate slightly for the damage if it is a big problem?

Is he Israeli or something? Why would he be wanting to work in Israel anyway?

You obviously have a hard on for BGU so go ahead and screw him over by telling him to go there instead of encouraging what's been posted here. Your call. When he tries to match in 4 years you're the one who gets to hear about it not us. In four years there's gonna be even less spots for IMGs to match into as all the allo/osteo schools that opened the past couple years will start graduating.

 

[san2]

Is he Israeli or something? Why would he be wanting to work in Israel anyway?

You obviously have a hard on for BGU so go ahead and screw him over by telling him to go there instead of encouraging what's been posted here. Your call. When he tries to match in 4 years you're the one who gets to hear about it not us. In four years there's gonna be even less spots for IMGs to match into as all the allo/osteo schools that opened the past couple years will start graduating.

We're Jewish and have extensive ties to Israel. Tel Aviv is a great city with a great culture and a very high standard of living. And potential president, Mitt Romney, just on his recent trip applauded the Israeli healthcare system.

And now, even I know going to a US allopathic schools is better. But where did we actually come to that conclusion. Its because of the negative stigma against carribean grads. But put your yourself in the shoes of a residency PD. You see an Jewish American citizen, went to a good undergrad, majored in Chemical Engineering and Philosophy, went to BGU in collaboration with Columbia, know that its a competitive school to get into and admissions is much more competitive than any carrib school and prob more or equal to DO schools, does well there, gets good letters from Columbia faculty, and has a good step 1 score. Then why would a residency PD not take him? especially in IM programs where it is FMG dominated, or Carrib dominted.

And I think he is going in with a determination to do really well both in class and step 1, so thats why I cannot see him struggling to get a position despite all these forecasters saying residency slots will go to american grads, since they are not increasing residency slots but increasing US med school seats. if it becomes ever an issue, they will increase the residency slots. FMG's are a vital part to the US healthcare, especially those from other countries who bring medical expertise that they have learned in their home country. Yes carrib schools are different and horrible. But I think SDN fails to differentiate between carribean and a true international medical school, but I think residency PD's do differentiate

 

[Ravizzle]

We're Jewish and have extensive ties to Israel. Tel Aviv is a great city with a great culture and a very high standard of living. And potential president, Mitt Romney, just on his recent trip applauded the Israeli healthcare system.

And now, even I know going to a US allopathic schools is better. But where did we actually come to that conclusion. Its because of the negative stigma against carribean grads. But put your yourself in the shoes of a residency PD. You see an Jewish American citizen, went to a good undergrad, majored in Chemical Engineering and Philosophy, went to BGU in collaboration with Columbia, know that its a competitive school to get into and admissions is much more competitive than any carrib school and prob more or equal to DO schools, does well there, gets good letters from Columbia faculty, and has a good step 1 score. Then why would a residency PD not take him? especially in IM programs where it is FMG dominated, or Carrib dominted.

And I think he is going in with a determination to do really well both in class and step 1, so thats why I cannot see him struggling to get a position despite all these forecasters saying residency slots will go to american grads, since they are not increasing residency slots but increasing US med school seats. if it becomes ever an issue, they will increase the residency slots. FMG's are a vital part to the US healthcare, especially those from other countries who bring medical expertise that they have learned in their home country. Yes carrib schools are different and horrible. But I think SDN fails to differentiate between carribean and a true international medical school, but I think residency PD's do differentiate

You just answered your own question.

/thread

Sent from my Galaxy S2 via tapatalk

 

[san2]

going the DO route will not make you eligible to practice medicine in Israel.

 

[serendipity007]

Is he Israeli or something? Why would he be wanting to work in Israel anyway?

You obviously have a hard on for BGU so go ahead and screw him over by telling him to go there instead of encouraging what's been posted here. Your call. When he tries to match in 4 years you're the one who gets to hear about it not us. In four years there's gonna be even less spots for IMGs to match into as all the allo/osteo schools that opened the past couple years will start graduating.

Most likely a dual citizen. It is actually very common. OP obviously wants his nephew to go to BGU and he just said:

We are straying off the question. I encouraged him to go to BGU because of the competitiveness to get in, and it opens doors if ever he wants to practice medicine in Israel. And yes obviously, UIC will have a better match list than BGU, but sometimes students, like my nephew, cant get into allopathic US schools.

OP, do you know if your nephew actually wants to practice in Israel? It seems like you are suggesting that possibility to him. If he actually does, then let him go to BGU by all means. However, if your nephew has absolutely no interest practicing in Israel and wants to practice in the US and wants to get an MD because he is obviously unfairly biased against a DO, then he should try again to apply to US MD schools.

/btw, i put in a billion "and"s on purpose 😛

 

[Law2Doc]

If MCAT scores and GPA mattered when applying to residencies, you would be right. As it stands, they don't. The fact is that your nephew will be an FMG with no US clinical experience. Yeah, great place to be in.

Look at the match list for BGU. It's mostly family med, psych, and medicine at mostly community programs. My allopathic school has a similar MCAT/GPA average. Here's the match list. Make your own conclusions.

Yeah, you are rejecting good advice and insisting we help you choose between two bad options. It's simply dumb to not do the masters program instead to rush to a foreign med school where presumably he will have to tack on a year or two of obsevership/extorting at the end. His numbers are not bad -- they can be tweaked to do allopathic somewhere. I promise you that residencies put grads from both Caribbean and Israeli schools at about the same place at the bottom of the pile.

 

[notbobtrustme]

And now, even I know going to a US allopathic schools is better. But where did we actually come to that conclusion. Its because of the negative stigma against carribean grads. But put your yourself in the shoes of a residency PD. You see an Jewish American citizen, went to a good undergrad, majored in Chemical Engineering and Philosophy, went to BGU in collaboration with Columbia, know that its a competitive school to get into and admissions is much more competitive than any carrib school and prob more or equal to DO schools, does well there, gets good letters from Columbia faculty, and has a good step 1 score. Then why would a residency PD not take him? especially in IM programs where it is FMG dominated, or Carrib dominted.

Literally none of what you wrote matters. The only thing that matters is that he's an IMG coming back to the US. Most PDs won't have exposure to BGU and won't do the research to find out what it is when there are literally 10 other MD/DOs with similar or better stats than your nephew. BGU's mission is to train physicians for Israel. It will focus on passing Israeli boards and conducting Israeli medicine. Your nephew would have a massive uphill climb to practice in the US because he needs to know how to practice American medicine and pass the American boards.

Tell your nephew to sack up and do the work to get into a US allopathic/osteopathic school. There are very few shortcuts in medicine. Going IMG to "save time" is probably the stupidest decision he can make.

 

[san2]

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=850660

On this very thread, there is a poster saying he turned down a US school to go to Sackler, another Israeli school similiar to Ben Gurion

 

[VisionaryTics]

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=850660

On this very thread, there is a poster saying he turned down a US school to go to Sackler, another Israeli school similiar to Ben Gurion

That doesn't mean it was a good decision.

 

[san2]

Yeah, you are rejecting good advice and insisting we help you choose between two bad options. It's simply dumb to not do the masters program instead to rush to a foreign med school where presumably he will have to tack on a year or two of obsevership/extorting at the end. His numbers are not bad -- they can be tweaked to do allopathic somewhere. I promise you that residencies put grads from both Caribbean and Israeli schools at about the same place at the bottom of the pile.

I personally know a student with the same MCAT, and had a GPA similiar to his (actually higher to a 3.3), did a masters program at VCU and did not get into any allopathic schools. He moved himself down to the carrib when he was tired of it

 

[san2]

That doesn't mean it was a good decision.

this was the sackler match list for 2011 for sackler. seems comparable to yours visionary tics
I copied this of one of the posts

"Had my interview today, went very well. The doctor straight up said he would recommend me to the school so that's very encouraging. Follow the advice of the sababa guy and you'll do fine.

Here's the list, its the first thing that comes up when you type in sackler 2011 match list I don't know how you couldn't find it.
CLASS OF 2011 RESIDENCY POSITIONS:


​

ANESTHESIOLOGY
Boston University Medical Center, Boston Massachusetts
Albert Einstein College of Medicine, Monteifore Medical Center, Bronx, New York
University of California San Francisco Program, San Francisco, California
University of Rochester/Strong Memorial Hosp., Rochester, New York

FAMILY MEDICINE
Jackson Memorial Hospital Program, Miami, Florida
Kaiser Permanente Orange County, California
University of Connecticut Health Center, Farmington, Connecticut

INTERNAL MEDICINE
George Washington University, Washington, DC
Albert Einstein College of Medicine, Jacobi Medical Center, Bronx, New York
Cedars Sinai Medical Center, Los Angeles, California
Drexel University COM/Hahnemann University Hosp., Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
Johns Hopkins University/Sinai Hospital, Baltimore, Maryland
Lenox Hill Hospital Program, New York, New York
Maimonides Medical Center, Brooklyn, New York
Mount Sinai School of Medicine Program, New York, New York
Oregon Health & Science University Program, Portland, Oregon
SUNY Health Science Center, Brooklyn, New York
Winthrop University Hospital Program, Mineola, New York
Staten Island University Hospital, Staten Island, New York

MEDICINE PRELIMINARY
Albert Einstein College of Medicine, Monteifore Medical Center, Bronx, New York
Louisiana State University/Ochsner Clinic Foundation Prgm., New Orleans, Louisiana
Maimonides Medical Center, Brooklyn, New York
University of Missouri at Kansas City Program, Kansas City, Missouri

EMERGENCY MEDICINE
Rhode Island Hospital/Brown University Program, Providence, Rhode Island
SUNY Health Science Center, Brooklyn, New York
University of Massachusetts Medical School, Worcester, Massachusetts

OBSTETRICS & GYNECOLOGY
Albert Einstein Medical Center, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
Emory University Program, Atlanta, Georgia
Lenox Hill Hospital Program, New York, New York
Lutheran Medical Center, Brooklyn, New York
St. Barnabas Medical Center Program, Livingston, New Jersey

OPHTHALMOLOGY
Louisiana State University/Ochsner Clinic Foundation Prgm., New Orleans, Louisiana
George Washington University, Washington, DC


OTOLARYNGOLOGY
University of Pennsylvania Program, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania


PEDIATRICS
Albert Einstein College of Medicine, Jacobi Medical Center, Bronx, New York
Childrens National Medical Center/George Washington U. Program, Washington, DC
Harbor-UCLA Medical Center, Los Angeles, California
North Shore-Long Island Jewish Health System, New Hyde Park, New York
St. Louis Childrens Hospital, St. Louis, Missouri
SUNY Health Science Center, Brooklyn, New York
University of Connecticut Health Center, Farmington, Connecticut
University of New Mexico Program, Albuquerque, New Mexico

PEDIATRICS PRELIMINARY
SUNY Health Science Center, Brooklyn New York

PSYCHIATRY
Georgetown University Hospital Program, Washington, DC
University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

PHYSICIAL MEDICINE & REHABILATION
Boston University Medical Center, Boston, Massachusetts
Mount. Sinai School of Medicine Program, New York, New York
SUNY Health Science Center, Brooklyn, New York

RADIOLOGY DIAGNOSTIC
Albert Einstein College of Medicine/Jacobi Medical Center, Bronx, New York
Bronx Lebanon Hospital Center Program, Bronx, New York
Mount. Sinai School of Medicine Program, New York, New York

SURGERY
Albert Einstein College of Medicine/Monteifore Medical Center, Bronx, New York
Drexel University COM/Hahnemann University Hosp., Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
Maimonides Medical Center, Brooklyn, New York
Santa Barbara Cottage Hospital, Santa Barbara, California

SURGERY PRELIMINARY
Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center, Boston, Massachusetts
Lenox Hill Hospital Program, New York, New York


TRANSITIONAL
Maryland General Hospital, Baltimore Maryland
St. Mary's Mercy Hospital, Livonia, Michigan


Urology
Wayne State University/Detroit Medical Center, Detroit, Michigan"

 

[notbobtrustme]

I personally know a student with the same MCAT, and had a GPA similiar to his (actually higher to a 3.3), did a masters program at VCU and did not get into any allopathic schools. He moved himself down to the carrib when he was tired of it

did he do well in his program? You can't corners in this career path.