- Joined
- Apr 2, 2010
- Messages
- 455
- Reaction score
- 2
I think his brain physically blocks any replies that don't mention Israel, BGU, or Columbia...
carribean vs. foreign school
- Thread starter san2
- Start date
I think his brain physically blocks any replies that don't mention Israel, BGU, or Columbia...
I have no intentio of going offshore. does D.O. take any choices off?
D
deleted103644
Yes.
- Joined
- May 7, 2012
- Messages
- 199
- Reaction score
- 0
His gpa is basically set now. Even if he does 30 credits this year, and gets a 4.0 in all 30 credits, his GPA would rise to a 3.36. This is assuming he gets a 4.0 in all 30 credits. His double major in chemical engineering and philosophy have set his gpa in stone basically.
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2008
- Messages
- 6,234
- Reaction score
- 1,658
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2005
- Messages
- 3,993
- Reaction score
- 6,199
This thread is pretty spent. The OP has a perspective/plan that is set in stone even if there are rationale alternative options. The OP's question has been answered (looks like the general consensus is, if you are really going to choose between just SGU and BGU, go with BGU).
I hope the OP's nephew is able to achieve his goals and wish him the best; I think the general consensus is that taking a year and trying again for a US MD school would be a good use of time and that he is unnecessarily setting himself up for an uphill battle when it comes to residency with this plan to attend BGU but that is the OP's nephew's choice as a sentient adult.
For what it's worth, I had a GPA similar to the nephew's (albeit in biochemistry/molecular bio not chem-E) though with a borderline MCAT on my first application cycle and I was waitlisted at my state school (the only school I applied to). I retook the MCAT and some graduate level courses (while working my full-time job... I took a total of 3 years off between undergrad and medical school) and reapplied to more schools and was accepted at my state school. What people are suggesting here is NOT unheard of; in fact, if the situation was hopeless, many of those contributing here would say so... SDN posters do not typically pull punches when letting someone know if they think they are beating their heads against a brick wall to no purpose. So, at least I think I am proof that the nephew could feasibly try again next year with a reasonably good shot at a good result. But of course my case was way back in ye olde 2005-2006 and things just continue to get more competitive.
I would also like to add that I wish the nephew could step back and reevaluate his idea that any more time is "wasted" and that taking this step now is "getting on with his life." I will say pointedly that I have many colleagues who took a variety of paths to medical school; some went straight through undergrad and med school with no time off and some like me had some gap years. I will say some of those that went straight through were fine with it and had no regrets and some later said they wished they'd taken a year or two off. However, I have never met anyone in medical school or residency that regretted taking "time off" between undergrad and med school. The nephew can do so many things in that year in addition to improving his application, and medical schools do not look down on this sort of thing.
Finally,someone involved in the GME administration at my training site told us today that THIS is the year where the number of US medical students in the match is expected to exceed the number of available residency spots. This has been expected for awhile given that the the number of students increased a few years ago with new schools opening and existing schools adding extra spots (my own alma mater increased class size by 10 spots/year beginning with my class) while residency spots have been frozen since 1996. There are more people seeking residency positions than ever and this problem is only going to get worse over the next few years. This is not to say that the nephew absolutely won't match as an IMG (no one can predict success or failure with absolute certainty), just that statistics are already against him if he pursues his current plan and will not improve but worsen in the near future.
So best of luck to the OP's nephew. After spending so much time and effort to get into medical school, most here can not fathom choosing a path that doesn't offer the best chance at matching into a residency of choice when a better alternative probably still exists, but every person has their own motivations, etc. If I were the OP I would take the extra year, but I am not. I hope he does not look back on this decision with regret but it is difficult for me to imagine a scenario where he will not.
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2012
- Messages
- 1,362
- Reaction score
- 11
I'll try to put our arguments in easier-to-understand terms. Imagine that there are hundreds of Ben Carsons in the world. They're the greatest neurosurgeons (or any other specialty for that matter) in their home country. They made peanuts in their homeland, so they decide to come to the US to make the big bucks. These FMGs have likely practiced as attendings for many years and have published numerous case reports, papers, and presentations. Has your nephew published many papers? Has your nephew practiced medicine for years and instructed residents? Can your nephew perform a better crainiotomy than Dr. Ben Carson? If you answered no to any of these questions, he has a snowball's chance in hell to get a residency slot as an IMG.
Lol. The nephew in question is clearly a special snowflake and, with his shiny BGU diploma in hand (Columbia! Columbia! Columbia!), will waltz into any residency he wants.
Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using Tapatalk
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2011
- Messages
- 3,477
- Reaction score
- 1,676
Failure. 99% of US MD schools will not take a student who has matriculated to a medical school, period. That's why IMGs/FMGs can't just go to med school in the US, they have to enter the Match.
Transferring is exceedingly difficult for any student. For FMGs/IMGs, it's impossible.
Look, if you want to **** up his life, that's your prerogative. The advice in this thread is coming from people who have gone through the process, from residents, from fellows, and from people in the know. If you'd rather take the ****ty marketing advice from the website for a Jew school over these knowledgeable folks, it's like the old saying "you can't fix stupid."
- Joined
- Aug 10, 2012
- Messages
- 10
- Reaction score
- 0
I would say definitely go with Ben Gurion. I lived in Be'er Sheva for a while (where BGU is located) and although it is one of the less "posh" cities in Israel, it has a very interesting community and the school is excellent. My friends who were at the med school were studying hard and knew just as much information as their counterparts at American schools. As for clinical rotations, the only downside is the stigma of international work. Besides that, Israeli hospitals are definitely up to par. I did EMT shifts at Soroka hospital in Be'er Sheva, which serves a very interesting community, which included many Bedouins. Patients spoke any combination of Hebrew, Arabic, English, and Russian, mostly. I actually think it's an invaluable experience to experience healthcare in another country, because it certainly gave me a good perspective coming back to the US. If he decides to go there, my only advice would be to take advantage of the location. Jerusalem is only an hour or so away, and same with Tel Aviv--getting out of Be'er Sheva gives for a nice change of scenery, and my friends who didn't get out much regret it. Weekend trips to other countries are also fairly cheap--I went to Germany, Czech Republic, and Greece for short trips!
If you or he have any questions about Ben Gurion, Be'er Sheva, or living in Israel, please feel free to ask me!
If you or he have any questions about Ben Gurion, Be'er Sheva, or living in Israel, please feel free to ask me!
- Joined
- May 20, 2010
- Messages
- 5,700
- Reaction score
- 7,943
san2 is that you?
Disclaimer: I am not even in medical school yet, so feel free to disregard everything I say. However, I know many people who have gone the foreign school route, so I have come to understand something about this topic.
Given how defensive you're getting whenever anyone says anything negative about BGU, it seems like you've already made up your mind. It's not the end of the world if your nephew goes to Israel. All anyone here is saying is that if the kid's goal is to practice as a physician in the US (in any specialty), he would be better off making some additional efforts to go to a US school (which would not take a ridiculous amount of time, since his GPA is borderline and his MCAT is good). This is just because of a bias in the system against FMG/IMGs - American residency programs favor graduates of American schools - and is not saying anything about the quality of education at BGU.
That said, there should be a line of distinction drawn between FMGs (i.e. competitive foreigners who went to schools in their own countries and are now trying to move to the US) and IMGs (Americans who did not get into US schools and instead went to a foreign institution). American-born IMGs are sometimes a red flag for residency programs, and will face additional scrutiny to determine whether they really are competent. Your nephew will face this bias, and what people on this forum are trying to say is that for him, it is not really necessary to deal with this bias since he is someone who has a fairly good chance to get into a US school in the next cycle.
Another theme that you have mentioned repeatedly is BGU's affiliation with Columbia. Just in case you are not aware, US institutions are not going to look at evaluations from BGU/Columbia faculty in the same way as evaluations from Columbia P&S faculty. Neither will they perceive BGU graduates the same as Columbia graduates, just like Duke-NUS students are not the same as Duke students, Weill-Qatar students are not the same as Cornell students, and Makerere students are not the same as Johns Hopkins students. They may all be wonderful institutions, but these students are all FMG/IMGs, and will face the same bias as students of any other foreign institution.
Bottom line: BGU is a fine institution that produces competent physicians, but if the goal of those physicians is to practice medicine in the United States, there are better places to go to achieve that specific goal. BGU carries the obvious advantage that its graduates can practice in Israel, while Caribbean graduates (except those from Cuban schools or the University of the West Indies) cannot practice in the Caribbean. Obviously, your nephew must be willing to live in Israel or have some other backup if his US plans do not work out.
Given how defensive you're getting whenever anyone says anything negative about BGU, it seems like you've already made up your mind. It's not the end of the world if your nephew goes to Israel. All anyone here is saying is that if the kid's goal is to practice as a physician in the US (in any specialty), he would be better off making some additional efforts to go to a US school (which would not take a ridiculous amount of time, since his GPA is borderline and his MCAT is good). This is just because of a bias in the system against FMG/IMGs - American residency programs favor graduates of American schools - and is not saying anything about the quality of education at BGU.
That said, there should be a line of distinction drawn between FMGs (i.e. competitive foreigners who went to schools in their own countries and are now trying to move to the US) and IMGs (Americans who did not get into US schools and instead went to a foreign institution). American-born IMGs are sometimes a red flag for residency programs, and will face additional scrutiny to determine whether they really are competent. Your nephew will face this bias, and what people on this forum are trying to say is that for him, it is not really necessary to deal with this bias since he is someone who has a fairly good chance to get into a US school in the next cycle.
Another theme that you have mentioned repeatedly is BGU's affiliation with Columbia. Just in case you are not aware, US institutions are not going to look at evaluations from BGU/Columbia faculty in the same way as evaluations from Columbia P&S faculty. Neither will they perceive BGU graduates the same as Columbia graduates, just like Duke-NUS students are not the same as Duke students, Weill-Qatar students are not the same as Cornell students, and Makerere students are not the same as Johns Hopkins students. They may all be wonderful institutions, but these students are all FMG/IMGs, and will face the same bias as students of any other foreign institution.
Bottom line: BGU is a fine institution that produces competent physicians, but if the goal of those physicians is to practice medicine in the United States, there are better places to go to achieve that specific goal. BGU carries the obvious advantage that its graduates can practice in Israel, while Caribbean graduates (except those from Cuban schools or the University of the West Indies) cannot practice in the Caribbean. Obviously, your nephew must be willing to live in Israel or have some other backup if his US plans do not work out.
Last edited:
- Joined
- May 7, 2012
- Messages
- 199
- Reaction score
- 0
He decided and is going to send in his deposit fee later today for BGU.
He all ready has his AMCAS app verified, and is gonna apply to his instate schools and private med schools around the area. If he gets in this app cycle, he will leave BGU and start as a first year next August. If he doesnr, he's going to keep his grades up and aim for a 230+ on step 1 and apply for transfer to schools that accept transfer apps.
If that doesnt work out, he will take step 2, try to do well on that, and do some internal med observerships available at top institutions for about 3k per rotation and apply for us match. We're nearly sure (we're actually 100% sure) he'll match and even maybe into a decent university im program
He all ready has his AMCAS app verified, and is gonna apply to his instate schools and private med schools around the area. If he gets in this app cycle, he will leave BGU and start as a first year next August. If he doesnr, he's going to keep his grades up and aim for a 230+ on step 1 and apply for transfer to schools that accept transfer apps.
If that doesnt work out, he will take step 2, try to do well on that, and do some internal med observerships available at top institutions for about 3k per rotation and apply for us match. We're nearly sure (we're actually 100% sure) he'll match and even maybe into a decent university im program
- Joined
- Jul 15, 2009
- Messages
- 9,746
- Reaction score
- 1,670
- Joined
- Apr 2, 2010
- Messages
- 455
- Reaction score
- 2
You pretty much just ignored 3 pages of advice to avoid BGU because you couldn't see past your Israel boner. Good luck with that bro.
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2004
- Messages
- 30,872
- Reaction score
- 10,063
He will end up at a noncompetitive IM residency at a community hospital in the boonies that the US grads don't want. The dude with the same stats who comes out of the masters will end up having a choice of residency paths. If he can live with that, we can too.
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2010
- Messages
- 1,748
- Reaction score
- 99
Good luck to him interviewing at medical schools in the US while at another medical school on another continent. Good luck explaining what he is currently doing.
Good luck to him transferring from a non-LCME accredited school to an LCME school, without taking into account that most schools don't have space for another 3rd year, and only accommodate transfer students with a strong reason to be in the area of the new school.
Good luck to him magically getting "observeships" at TOP institutions, because he's so great?
And finally, good luck in the match.
(troll?)
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2011
- Messages
- 3,477
- Reaction score
- 1,676
you can't fix stupid.
D
deleted103644
I don't think a cycle of AMCAS while at BGU makes any sense, sorry.
Either he takes the year improving his application, or he goes all out at BGU.
If there's a chance to transfer, it's after MS2 and would pretty much only be an option to Columbia, but he would have to really prove himself and it would be close to impossible.
It's better to defer a year than start now, not sure if you can reapply if you defer, but it's better than applying again during MS1.
- Joined
- Aug 10, 2012
- Messages
- 10
- Reaction score
- 0
nope, just someone else who agrees that BGU is the better option from Caribbean schools.
san2 -You asked the question which was better: BGU or Caribbean, and everyone's telling you that either way he's screwed. Not exactly answering the question, eh?
- Joined
- Jun 29, 2011
- Messages
- 706
- Reaction score
- 2
The whole dual troll account thing is really overplayed these days.
- Joined
- May 7, 2012
- Messages
- 199
- Reaction score
- 0
no its more like multiple people sharing the same opinion. Since BGU has an average GPA of 3.5, and an average MCAT of 30, has it ever crossed yalls mind that they prob picked this over any DO school, Carrib school, and possibly even over a lower tier US MD school
- Joined
- Jan 20, 2008
- Messages
- 1,270
- Reaction score
- 19
I'm sorry, but it appears that you have a skewed perspective on medical school and residency application that borders on offensive.
- Joined
- Sep 29, 2010
- Messages
- 102
- Reaction score
- 6
How have you not grasped this yet? Residencies DO NOT CARE ABOUT THE MCAT OR GPA OF MATRICULANTS. The average could be an MCAT of 41 and a 4.0 GPA and it wouldn't make a difference in the world. An IMG is an IMG. It might be better than most US MD schools, but residencies in the US won't care one bit.
D
deleted103644
This is silly.
Of course residencies are aware that some schools are better than others. Things like average GPA & MCAT are used as markers, but not the only ones.
This is particularly true of foreign programs since there is a wider range of caliber of institutions.
Maybe some lazy residency programs will lump Sackler grads in with all the other IMGs, but NY programs certainly don't. Less familiar with BGU, but imagine it's similar.
For matching in NY, I'd actually wager Sackler students do better than most DOs, but don't have data on it (just my impression from meeting grads).
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2004
- Messages
- 30,872
- Reaction score
- 10,063
Actually people are being helpful, rather than fuel foolishness. The dude has four options. 1. Go do a masters to try and sell himself to US allo med schools. He has reasonable numbers as is so a solid masters would on paper give him a good shot. 2. Go DO. He rejects non-allo options even though this would allow him better odds of ending up in residency. 3. Go to BGU. Or 4. Go to SGU. Everyone with common sense is telling him that his best move is #1, followed by #2. So sure, telling him #3 is better than #4 is answering his question, but it's the wrong question. It's sort of like if you were a psychiatrist and your patient asked you if he should kill himself with pills or a gun. You need to focus on that third option even if that's not what he asked. To do otherwise is being a poor advisor, and feeding into his foolishness. The point of SDN is to get useful advice, not narrowly frame the question to only get bad advice that you want to hear.
D
deleted103644
L2D, any stats that BGU < average DO for ACGME residency?
Despite the consensus here, I think the jury is still out on that, particularly in NY (relatively DO unfriendly and a place where Sackler/BGU are better known).
The residency crunch will hit DOs as well as FMGs, and I don't think DOs are guaranteed to come out on top compared to the better FMG programs.
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2004
- Messages
- 30,872
- Reaction score
- 10,063
Ah but you are ignoring the osteo options. DO paths lead to both allo and osteo residencies, so statistically your odds of becoming a US doctor will always be better, even if getting an allo residency might be equally tough. Which is why foreign is simply not as strong a move.
- Joined
- May 20, 2010
- Messages
- 5,700
- Reaction score
- 7,943
Plus we aren't talking about Sackler anyway...OP is the one who randomly brought it up to somehow try to prove his point that BGU is great? Although if you look at Sackler's match list vs BGU's match list they're in pretty much different worlds.
I, for one, will be interested in following the applicant's progress. Please keep us posted in coming years to see if these dire predictions come true. I sincerely doubt he can transfer, no matter what his step one score is. Being a doctor in Israel might work out for him, who knows? Maybe he will find he can't keep up with those students who have such excellent GPAs.
- Joined
- Apr 11, 2012
- Messages
- 211
- Reaction score
- 27
This.
D
deleted103644
You're right I am discounting the AOA residencies, as should you.
The difference between ACGME and AOA is much bigger than the difference between MD and DO. Most AOA residencies are seriously deficient, and they will probably be shut out from ACGME fellowships in the near future.
D
deleted103644
My advice was based upon the assumption that Sackler and BGU are roughly in the same league.
If BGU is really much lower, disregard.
I definitely know people who opted for Sackler over low tier MD programs and I don't think they were hurt for it at all.
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2004
- Messages
- 30,872
- Reaction score
- 10,063
Um no --This misses the point. Osteo residencies are still residencies in the US that lead to the ability to become board certified and practice in the US. If the goal is to get a residency to become a US doctor this counts. Nobody cares if the residency is deficient, or if you cant get a fellowhip afterward --that wasn't the question here. We are talking chances to end up landing a residency and becoming a practicing physician in the US. if this is the goal, then DO is > foreign, without much question.
If OPs nephews goal is to end up on a competitive path with a fellowship, I think anyone not beau dead would go down the masters route so clearly fellowship is irrelevant here.
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2004
- Messages
- 30,872
- Reaction score
- 10,063
This is faulty logic -- there will always be outliers. What matters is how the AVERAGE person does, not the few you know. Its why anecdotal evidence isnt really evidence. and yes I will go out on a limb and say going overseas instead of a US allo program does hurt the typical applicant.
Next year when you are more involved in schmoozing applicants, count how many lower ranking med school applicants your program brings in for interviews as compared to foreign grads. My bet is it isn't even close.
seriously, there are probably people who go to the worst carribean schools and place well.
D
deleted103644
For matching, the key is US clinical rotations. In my state, SGU has secured more spots than any DO program and is even pushing out some MD rotation spots.
This means that those students who make it to US clinical rotations from SGU do well. NY residencies also appear to be fairly anti-DO for some reason.
D
deleted103644
My program doesn't interview DOs or FMGs.
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2004
- Messages
- 30,872
- Reaction score
- 10,063
Which proves my point. The DO still has osteo routes, the FMG is SOL.
D
deleted103644
Haha, not in my specialty. Osteo boarded people are unemployed.
- Joined
- Sep 29, 2010
- Messages
- 102
- Reaction score
- 6
Ya, that sounds like a load of crap. No doctor is going to have trouble finding a job just because they completed an AOA residency. They might not get the top academic positions, but they will find a position regardless.
D
deleted103644
The AOBR certification is not universally accepted by hospitals, and the training at DO radiology programs is generally so far below par most private groups won't look at candidates from them.
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2011
- Messages
- 277
- Reaction score
- 3
Naive much?
- Joined
- Sep 16, 2008
- Messages
- 500
- Reaction score
- 242
Congratulations on helping screw over one of your family members because of your arrogance and your nephew's impatience.
It's going to really suck in 3 years when he falls in love with Plastic Surgery -- a specialty that will be impossible to match in as an FMG -- and he has to settle for spending the rest of his life doing something he enjoys less. Gosh, taking a year off to shore up your application to get into a US allo program really seems like a tiny time investment by comparison, doesn't it?
Oh well. Foolish decisions deserve unhappy endings, I suppose, but it's a damn shame.
Here, my friends, is a premed raised on SDN kool aid. DO != MD and ACGME != AOA.
Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using Tapatalk
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2011
- Messages
- 3,477
- Reaction score
- 1,676
We need IMG/FMGs, who else is going to fill out crappy residency programs in primary care?
D
deleted103644
DOs.
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2008
- Messages
- 6,234
- Reaction score
- 1,658
I'm sure it's a problem at small, crappy programs, but I doubt that DO rads training is generally worthless.
