case western- university hospitals vs. cleveland clinic

[chicagoboy14]

Hey everyone,

I know this topic has been talked about before, but i couldn't find the thread. I interviewed at both programs and I enjoyed both interview days. I am interested in heme/onc, and although both programs seem great for IM, i was wondering what your thoughts were on resident training and fellowship placement from both.

I know the rumors are the the clinic are fellow based and they don't take their own, but that isnt true anymore. Due to the new med school, and shift to education over service, i think it is becoming a better program. Keeping that in mind, i would really appreciate any other comments because as you know, ranking programs is tough.

Thank you very much in advance, and any advice is appreciated.

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[tarlovcyst]

Hey everyone,

I know this topic has been talked about before, but i couldn't find the thread. I interviewed at both programs and I enjoyed both interview days. I am interested in heme/onc, and although both programs seem great for IM, i was wondering what your thoughts were on resident training and fellowship placement from both.

I know the rumors are the the clinic are fellow based and they don't take their own, but that isnt true anymore. Due to the new med school, and shift to education over service, i think it is becoming a better program. Keeping that in mind, i would really appreciate any other comments because as you know, ranking programs is tough.

Thank you very much in advance, and any advice is appreciated.

Honestly, go where your gut takes you. I'm sure you felt a little better at one of the two programs you listed. Forget about fellowship match. Both places do excellent in the fellowship placement, and both programs have national reputations.

Also, think about where you think you will do better. So I guess this all goes back to your source of happiness.

 

[pazu]

I know the rumors are the the clinic are fellow based and they don't take their own, but that isnt true anymore. Due to the new med school, and shift to education over service, i think it is becoming a better program.

Yeah, I'd like to get more input on this too. I did not leave feeling satisfied that enough had been done to ensure good residency training. I think the Clinic would be ideal for those who are very proactive and self-driven. If you're looking for more didactics-style learning, more guidance, then the Clinic probably isn't for you.

 

[mauvespice]

I interviewed at both places as well. I still don't have a strong calling one way or another but this was my impression of the two places and please correct me I'm wrong about any of it:

The clinic: More culturally diverse faculty, residents and patients. Mix of AMG/IMGs in the program (about 70-30). The imgs there are pretty strong and driven. Lots of hands on experience, no longer fellow run except in cards and CICU. Excellent patient population. Described as a very busy program. Majorly front-loaded. Have an amazing 4 month research training option for those who are interested with a formal stringent application process. Very good and renowned faculty on sub-specialty services. Residents are quite happy. For fellowships they take 50-50 of their own and outsiders in most sub-specialties. Huge campus spread all over the place but they have almost completely achieved geographical convenience as far as seeing patients is concerned. Staggered 30 hr call for interns, night float only for PGY2s and 3s. Got a feeling that the clinic is run more like a business but this does not affect residents much. VIP patients seen very regularly (to each his own whether this would be an adv/disadv)

Case: I may be wrong but I got a very mid-western feel at this place. Faculty and residents are definitely not as diverse as the clinic. May 3-4 imgs in the program. Decent size. Described as front loaded but I dont think it is as busy as the clinic. PD is nice, listens to resident requests. Fellowship matches may be slightly better than the clinic but this may also be because of greater proportion of amgs in the program. New cancer center under construction projected to start by PGY1-2 of current applicants. Cardiology dwarfed by the clinic. Bedside teaching, traditional teaching claimed to be greater compared to the clinic. Take a lot of their own for fellowship. More basic science research compared to more clinical trials and clinical training excellence at the clinic. More research dollars compared to the clinic.

 

[boyz of 4d]

Hey, I'm an intern at Case so I feel like I could share some of my opinions/experiences:

Case definitely has a mid - western feeling, everyone is very nice and laid back, and the relationship between residents and housestaff if very collegial. I was very surprised when I came to see that the interns are from all over the country, as I had heard the majority are from Ohio (I am from NYC).

In terms of patient diversity, I would have to say that I think that UH would be more diverse. Cleveland Clinic caters more to the upper class of Cleveland. We often get transfers, especially in the MICU with the reason for transfer being CCF does not accept buckeye insurance (Ohio medicaid equivalent). In addition, we are also affiliated with the Louis Stokes VA (Ranked in a two way tie with the Boston VA for #1 VA in the country)

In relation to our PD, I would have to say Dr. Armitage is one of the best PD's in the country. He listens to all the house staff and really accomodates us. Is frequently making changes to the program. Within the last year some changes that have been made due to housestaff requests:
- Doubled our elective time during intern year
- Instituted intern night float (with 3 hour nap time)
- Eliminated clinic on call days
- Geographic localization in the hospital
- Decreased the cap at the VA from 10 to 8 patients

In relation to cardiology (which I plan on pursuing), Cleveland Clinic has the best cardiology fellowship in the country (although neither CCF/Case seem to retain a large amount of there IM house staff for cards). However, over the past 5-7 years Case has steadily improved, and I feel will be a powerhouse within the next few years. We have acquired much of the cardiology staff from Brigham Womens Hospital. We do have some top researchers in the field
- Dr. Jim Fang (Heart Failure)
- Mukesh Jain (basic science)
- Marco Costa (interventional)

I also interviewed at the Clinic, but did not rank the program. The reasons *I* did not rank it were similar as to what was stated in one of the above posts. On my interview day I felt like the hospital was very fellow/attending run. During my interview I had asked my interviewer what she saw the role of a resident as, she said, "I don't think we really need residents, but you should rank this program high." In addition, I felt that Case was viewed as a much stronger IM training program nationally (although in terms of medicine fellowships I feel CCF is a better place to train).

However, when deciding where to rank a program, I really feel the most important aspect is seeing how you fit in. These are people you will be working with for 80 hours a week, and people you will need to rely on; they become your family. The comraderie I witnessed among the house staff at the pre - interview dinner (the only dinner I attended where house staff outnumbered the applicants) really caught my eye.

I think Case is a phenomenal place to train, both in terms of reputation and resident happiness. I am very satisfied with my decision, and if I had to do match all over again, I would rank Case 1. That being said, CCF is also a great place to train, however it was just not for me.

If anyone has any questions about Case, please feel free to PM me and I will get back to you.

Best of luck with the match.

 

[mauvespice]

Hey, I'm an intern at Case so I feel like I could share some of my opinions/experiences:

Case definitely has a mid - western feeling, everyone is very nice and laid back, and the relationship between residents and housestaff if very collegial. I was very surprised when I came to see that the interns are from all over the country, as I had heard the majority are from Ohio (I am from NYC).

In terms of patient diversity, I would have to say that I think that UH would be more diverse. Cleveland Clinic caters more to the upper class of Cleveland. We often get transfers, especially in the MICU with the reason for transfer being CCF does not accept buckeye insurance (Ohio medicaid equivalent). In addition, we are also affiliated with the Louis Stokes VA (Ranked in a two way tie with the Boston VA for #1 VA in the country)

In relation to our PD, I would have to say Dr. Armitage is one of the best PD's in the country. He listens to all the house staff and really accomodates us. Is frequently making changes to the program. Within the last year some changes that have been made due to housestaff requests:
- Doubled our elective time during intern year
- Instituted intern night float (with 3 hour nap time)
- Eliminated clinic on call days
- Geographic localization in the hospital
- Decreased the cap at the VA from 10 to 8 patients

In relation to cardiology (which I plan on pursuing), Cleveland Clinic has the best cardiology fellowship in the country (although neither CCF/Case seem to retain a large amount of there IM house staff for cards). However, over the past 5-7 years Case has steadily improved, and I feel will be a powerhouse within the next few years. We have acquired much of the cardiology staff from Brigham Womens Hospital. We do have some top researchers in the field
- Dr. Jim Fang (Heart Failure)
- Mukesh Jain (basic science)
- Marco Costa (interventional)

I also interviewed at the Clinic, but did not rank the program. The reasons *I* did not rank it were similar as to what was stated in one of the above posts. On my interview day I felt like the hospital was very fellow/attending run. During my interview I had asked my interviewer what she saw the role of a resident as, she said, "I don't think we really need residents, but you should rank this program high." In addition, I felt that Case was viewed as a much stronger IM training program nationally (although in terms of medicine fellowships I feel CCF is a better place to train).

However, when deciding where to rank a program, I really feel the most important aspect is seeing how you fit in. These are people you will be working with for 80 hours a week, and people you will need to rely on; they become your family. The comraderie I witnessed among the house staff at the pre - interview dinner (the only dinner I attended where house staff outnumbered the applicants) really caught my eye.

I think Case is a phenomenal place to train, both in terms of reputation and resident happiness. I am very satisfied with my decision, and if I had to do match all over again, I would rank Case 1. That being said, CCF is also a great place to train, however it was just not for me.

If anyone has any questions about Case, please feel free to PM me and I will get back to you.

Best of luck with the match.

Thanks very much for this informative post. I am quite surprised to know that you did not rank CCF at all. I think the most commonly asked question to all residents/fellows/interviewers at CCF this year was whether CCF is fellow run. It is possible that the answers were well rehearsed with examples but they tackled the question well. So other than on Cardiology and CICU services which some of residents confessed, they no longer claimed to have this issue. Could you please comment on the strength of fellowships (Pulmonary CCM) other than cards at Case vs CCF?

 

[boyz of 4d]

I don't know much about each of the individual fellowships, besides the fact that they all have good national reputations, and the majority (besides cards), seems to reserve up to half of there fellowship positions for Case graduates.

In terms of pulm/CC, our PD/chair is leaving to go to Denver, but we are currently in search of a new chairmen. I talked to our PD to see the current situation, and this is what he told me:
- Apparently a lot of this information is kept very secretive. This is because the people who are interviewing are all high profile, and don't want the current program they are interviewing at to know they are looking to leave (apparently this is normal practice).
- The PD has been replaced. I believe the name is something like (Dr. Bertuzzi???). She had been at case for many years, but left for private practice, earlier this year, and is coming back. She was a housestaff favorite during her time at case and has won many teaching awards.
- We are currently interviewing 6 people for chairmen. Apparently they are all from powerhouse pulm programs, but like I mentioned above I can't know from where.

If anyone has any specific questions let me know and I will try to get the answers.

 

[virilep]

Wait a sec... Armitage is leaving?

 

[mauvespice]

Wait a sec... Armitage is leaving?

Err...I guess he meant the PCCM PD/chair

 

[mauvespice]

I don't know much about each of the individual fellowships, besides the fact that they all have good national reputations, and the majority (besides cards), seems to reserve up to half of there fellowship positions for Case graduates.

In terms of pulm/CC, our PD/chair is leaving to go to Denver, but we are currently in search of a new chairmen. I talked to our PD to see the current situation, and this is what he told me:
- Apparently a lot of this information is kept very secretive. This is because the people who are interviewing are all high profile, and don't want the current program they are interviewing at to know they are looking to leave (apparently this is normal practice).
- The PD has been replaced. I believe the name is something like (Dr. Bertuzzi???). She had been at case for many years, but left for private practice, earlier this year, and is coming back. She was a housestaff favorite during her time at case and has won many teaching awards.
- We are currently interviewing 6 people for chairmen. Apparently they are all from powerhouse pulm programs, but like I mentioned above I can't know from where.

If anyone has any specific questions let me know and I will try to get the answers.

Omg, thank you for taking the trouble to get this info for us. Would love to have helpful residents like you around. Happy New Year everyone!!

 

[virilep]

Err...I guess he meant the PCCM PD/chair

ah ha! hahaha. Sorry, must have been late when I read that post. Thank goodness. Armitage is a very good reason why I liked them.

 

[mauvespice]

ah ha! hahaha. Sorry, must have been late when I read that post. Thank goodness. Armitage is a very good reason why I liked them.

Oh yes, me too!

 

[boyz of 4d]

Armitage is not going anywhere, the pulm cc pd is outta here soon. Armitage is very big reason I (and many of the housestaff) ranked the program high, he's extremely involved with the all of the residents.
--- The current housestaff isnt bad either